This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by Broomstick »

Long story short - some enterprising capitalist workers at Burr Oak cemetery got into the business of re-selling already occupied graves for profit.

Although this article lists 300 bodies, some reports put it at 500, with the possibility of the affected bodies running as high as 700+. Obviously, there is much investigating to do. Last I heard, the four arrested were in "protective" custody, meaning they are isolated from the general population for their own protection. Not only are people around here saying they should go to "special hell", emotions are running high enough some folks might want to help them get started on the trip.

The story is being updated frequently, as the situation is very much in flux right now.
The graves were old -- some unmarked, some forgotten.

And so four workers at historic Burr Oak Cemetery in Alsip plundered them, smashing open the concrete liners and hauling away the human remains inside to a weedy dump site, Cook County investigators say.

If bones clattered off the dump truck along the way, they were left on the side of the cemetery roads, investigators say.

As many as 300 bodies were unearthed and dumped in a mass grave as part of a scam that netted the workers about $300,000, authorities said Thursday.

The empty graves were resold to unsuspecting families for cash -- off the books, authorities said.

"There should be ... a special place in hell for these graveyard thieves," said the Rev. Jesse Jackson, who appeared with authorities at a press conference at the cemetery Thursday.

Four current and former cemetery employees were charged Thursday with one count each of felony dismembering a human body: Carolyn Towns, 49, of the 7500 block of South Yates; Keith Nicks, 45, of the 900 block of West 129th Place; his brother Terrence Nicks, 39, of the 12800 block of South Morgan, and Maurice Dailey, 59, of Robbins.

Towns, the cemetery manager, allegedly masterminded the grisly scam. Keith Nicks, an employee since 1992, was the gravediggers' foreman, while his brother was a dump truck operator. Dailey, an employee for 25 years, ran a backhoe, Cook County Assistant State's Attorney John Mahoney said in court at 26th and California.

Cook County Judge Maria Kuriakos Ciesil set bail at $250,000 for Towns, while the three men were each held on $200,000. Towns was being held late Thursday in the psychiatric unit at the County Jail complex, officials said.

More people may yet be charged, the sheriff's office said. In addition, authorities said a fund set up in 2005 to build a memorial to 14-year-old murder victim Emmett Till -- who is buried at the cemetery -- was looted.

Sheriff Tom Dart said the scam took place over at least four years. The human remains in the mass grave -- in the northwest corner of the cemetery -- are so hard to identify that the sheriff's office has brought in 30 to 40 FBI experts -- some of whom have scoured mass graves in Serbia and other parts of the world.

Dart said the process of trying to identify the bodies will be similar to work done at Ground Zero following the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Federal authorities have opened a fraud investigation, but it was too early to say whether a joint federal and state prosecution will be pursued, sources say.

In court, Mahoney said Towns took cash from families who came to the cemetery seeking to bury loved ones. She allegedly drew up paperwork on the new burials, and then destroyed it so there would be no record. Towns then pocketed the cash and paid off the other three defendants, Mahoney said.

Towns would then tell the three workers to exhume human remains from existing graves and put them in the mass grave, Mahoney said. Employees allegedly excavated entire burial sites -- including the concrete vault that surrounds the coffin. The caskets and headstones were often smashed, officials said.

The workers sought out older, unmarked graves that hadn't been visited in a while, Dart spokesman Steve Patterson said. One was that of a baby who died in 1946, Patterson said. The headstone was smashed to pieces.

New bodies were then buried in the old plots, Mahoney said. Authorities also said some old bodies were pounded into the ground, with new bodies "double-stacked'' atop them.

The sheriff's office discovered, in plain sight, a jawbone with teeth along with 29 other bones in the mass grave -- an unkempt grassy area, prosecutors said.

One employee told prosecutors he saw skulls and rib bones strewn around the area.

"There are a lot of remains scattered around," Dart said. "This was not a surgical effort. ... They were dug up with backhoes and discarded."

Police first learned of the allegations when an attorney for the cemetery, Trudi Foushee, alerted them in May about the skeletal remains and said the facility was unable to account for some funds. Foushee had been acting cemetery manager after Towns was removed from her post in late March on allegations she stole $8,400 from the cemetery, prosecutors said.

Foushee represents Perpetua Inc., the company that owns the 150-acre Burr Oak Cemetery. Company officials could not be reached Thursday.

Foushee was told about the bodies by a cemetery worker who noticed the skeletal remains when he was practicing his backhoe skills, prosecutors said.

Illinois Comptroller Dan Hynes said today that he's instructed his staff to begin license revocation proceedings against Perpetua Holdings Inc., the owner of Burr Oak Cemetery.

"Even though it was rogue employees who were committing these atrocities, it is (Perpetua's) cemetery, and they are ultimately responsible, and they have abused the right to hold these licenses," Hynes told reporters at his downtown office.

Hynes said the process could take "some months." Hynes also said his office doesn't have the legal authority to police the nearly 2,000 funeral homes, cemeteries and crematories it overseas in a "very narrow, limited role." The comptroller said his office is only authorized to oversee trust funds for such things as pre-paid funeral and "perpetual care" plans.
This cemetery is of enormous historical importance to the black community in the greater Chicago area. It is really hitting that group very hard. Not that anyone else is happy about this either - it was appalling when earlier this year an abandoned Gary funeral home was found to still have bodies in it, but that pales in comparison to what was discovered at Burr Oak. It will be years before the bone pile of discarded bodies is disentangled, if it even can be.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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The 10 pm news has announced that Burr Oak cemetary has been closed for at least 5 days to both visitation and burials. Apparently most of the several thousand people who showed up today could not find their relatives' graves. The section called "Babyland" - as section set aside for deceased infants and children - has apparently "disappeared".

The Cook County sheriff says he's concerned that as many as 5,000 graves - not bodies but gravesites meaning the number of bodies would be higher - may be involved. It may be the largest crime scene in county history.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by Alyeska »

This is like a bad joke you hear people cracking 5 minutes to the end of work on a Friday. This is very bad news for the people involved and there will be no satisfactory answer.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by Darth Wong »

What is the maximum sentence for this kind of crime?
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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Not entirely sure.

Would you believe the US had no law against grave-robbing until some thugs tried to steal Abraham Lincoln's body?

While problems do occur in the undertaking business they aren't really that common, nor have I ever heard of it on such a scale before. I believe the four people in jail are charged with "felony dismemberment of a body", I would expect illegal disinterment to be added along with fraud and embezzlement (money intended for a memorial for Emmet Till has also apparently disappeared - Mr. Till is apparently still resting in his grave at Burr Oak, one of the few who is where he should be.) I have no doubt county lawyers are up late tonight trying to find every possible statute to use against these yahoos.

Really, they are much safer in jail. The mood around here regarding this is EXTREMELY ugly. Even if acquitted they will not be able to live in Chicago - public sentiment needs to hang this on someone.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Wait this could end up being more than 5,000 graves and possibly more bodies than that by extension? And someone's created a little miniature deathcamp mass grave somewhere for all these bodies?

Don't worry, they'll never getting out, all the prosecutor has to do is make sure that the 10,000 or so counts of grave robbery are served successively rather than concurrently. Fifty thousand years in prison seems reasonable here.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Wait this could end up being more than 5,000 graves and possibly more bodies than that by extension? And someone's created a little miniature deathcamp mass grave somewhere for all these bodies?

Don't worry, they'll never getting out, all the prosecutor has to do is make sure that the 10,000 or so counts of grave robbery are served successively rather than concurrently. Fifty thousand years in prison seems reasonable here.
I'd imagine it would be a much shorter sentence if they're put in with the general population.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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I wonder if these guys all have criminal records. I find it hard to believe that someone would even propose such a thing in the company of others. What kind of low-lifes did they have to be, in order to conspire together on such a project?
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Don't worry, they'll never getting out, all the prosecutor has to do is make sure that the 10,000 or so counts of grave robbery are served successively rather than concurrently. Fifty thousand years in prison seems reasonable here.
They caused a lot of emotional misery, but then most large scams do that. It's reprehensible, but then so is stealing thousands of people's life savings, and people who run ponzi schemes and empty pension funds only get 5 to 20 years in the US. I don't see why you'd treat these particular vandals and con-artists as worse than murders (or rather I do see why, but I don't think it's justified).
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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You may not find it justified, but in matters concerning death people are, as a general rule, NOT rational.

The elimination of "Babyland", in particular, is horrific to those involved. For some of these families, where infants died, the gravesite is pretty much all these have of their lost child. Parents who lose a child are not.... rational. Loss of what little remains after such a death... it is not a good thing.

It's greed, simple greed, that's all - greed for money and the hubris to believe you won't be caught.

The thing is, there is at least a potential to earn more money if you lose all in a ponzi scheme or whatever. There is NO way to reconstitute the mortal remains of someone once the body is fragmented and the bones scattered. It is already anticipated that some bodies may never be found at all.

Worse than murder? No - but the sheer amount of heartbreak, pain, and misery these scoundrels have caused demands punishment.

All day thousands of people showed up at Burr Oak looking for their loved ones and only about 1/3 found them. Lots of horrible images of heartbroken relatives wandering around the cemetery, people crying... Two burials were scheduled for today but both were stopped as it was realized that both of them would have been placed in graves that belonged to other people and the bodies that should have been there were missing. I have to suspect closing the cemetery was done not only to secure a crime scene but also out of concerns for crowd control.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by Darth Wong »

Smashing the headstones seems almost like it was done for pure malice, not just greed. They could have just as easily stacked them up like bricks somewhere, couldn't they? What's the point of smashing them to pieces?
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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Broomstick wrote:The thing is, there is at least a potential to earn more money if you lose all in a ponzi scheme or whatever. There is NO way to reconstitute the mortal remains of someone once the body is fragmented and the bones scattered. It is already anticipated that some bodies may never be found at all.
I acknowledge that this causes genuine, deep distress, but still, I'm having a hard time reconciling it with a 10,000 year prison sentence. The fact is that a great many families get by fine with no gravesite - sometimes involuntarily, because the bodies were not found, but often voluntarily, because the deceased was cremated and their ashes scattered. A lot of people obviously like the idea of putting decomposing bodies in a grassy field with marker stones, and that's fine, but having gravesites for your relatives isn't a basic human need or right, and I'd rank the severity individual case well below grevious bodily harm or even kidnapping. The magnitude of the harm in this case comes from the sheer number of people affected, but courts don't normally hand out sentences ten times as large for say setting fire to a street of houses instead of just one house.
No - but the sheer amount of heartbreak, pain, and misery these scoundrels have caused demands punishment.
I'm sure they'll spend years in prison, but their assets are negligable, so the company involved will have to be sued to generate significant financial compensation (which along with losing its license will probably bankrupt it).
Darth Wong wrote:What's the point of smashing them to pieces?
Simple laziness I imagine. If all they had to work with is a backhoe, it would be easier to smash them and scoop up the rubble than try to stack them whole. Though it probably also extended the amount of time they could get away with the scam, a stack of old headstones would raise questions.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by Vympel »

I'd be surprised if the sensationalist talk of 5,000 graves or whatever is remotely accurate. The 300+ graves referred to are heinous enough, but these scumbags did apparently limit their criminality to old graves that hadn't been visited in a while. It seems unlikely that of 5,000 graves they'd all be too old to be regularly visited. That's only natural - who wants to get caught, right?

Anyway, one thing I can't stand to see in cemeteries are really old graves - you know, the person died back in 1930, and absolutely no one alive remembers them, the gravestone is almost unreadable.

I never want to be that guy. Burn me up, thanks. Toss me into the sea, whatever.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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Destroy the evidence? Make them easier to move? Yes, it could have been malice, too.

Oh, got a figure for the penalty for "felony dismemberment". It's 6 to 30 years. Per offense.

Here's the human dimension: This woman can not find the body of her brother -
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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Starglider wrote:
Broomstick wrote:The thing is, there is at least a potential to earn more money if you lose all in a ponzi scheme or whatever. There is NO way to reconstitute the mortal remains of someone once the body is fragmented and the bones scattered. It is already anticipated that some bodies may never be found at all.
I acknowledge that this causes genuine, deep distress, but still, I'm having a hard time reconciling it with a 10,000 year prison sentence. The fact is that a great many families get by fine with no gravesite - sometimes involuntarily, because the bodies were not found, but often voluntarily, because the deceased was cremated and their ashes scattered. A lot of people obviously like the idea of putting decomposing bodies in a grassy field with marker stones
You ignorant fuck - you have NO CLUE about American burial customs, do you? It is not uncommon to have a gravesite, even bury a casket, when no body is found or even only part of a body is found. One of those killed at the world trade center in 2001 had in his coffin a single vial of blood retrieved from a testing facility as his only mortal remains, as just one example. Many localities prohibit the scattering of human ashes and thus many people in the US also purchase either graves or a niche at a cemetery for cremated remains. In one instance today a woman spoke of her father's grave, and of receiving permission to reopen it in order to bury her mother's ashes in the same plot, and both are gone now.

No, it is not considered "fine" for most Americans to "get by" without a gravesite. If no body is found there might be no choice, but they don't consider it "fine". So not fine that burying an empty coffin is seen by many as a sensible alternative. The people who cremate then actually scatter the ashes are a very small minority in this country and frequently considered nutjobs for doing so.

But, of course, any custom other than one you, personally, approve of is worthless, right? Fuck you, you insensitive prick.

As for the "10,000 year prison sentence" - that is Marina's idea, not that of a legal scholar. Generally, in such cases the sentence is handed down as some variant of "99 years" or such. The only counts lodged against them will be those for which there is the strongest evidence. I'm going to assume they'll waive the right to a jury trial - there's no way in hell you could get an impartial jury of their peers around here - and go with a bench trial.
The magnitude of the harm in this case comes from the sheer number of people affected, but courts don't normally hand out sentences ten times as large for say setting fire to a street of houses instead of just one house.
What the fuck country do you live in? They sure as hell DO hand down a stricter sentence for burning a whole street of houses as opposed to just one in these parts, mister.
No - but the sheer amount of heartbreak, pain, and misery these scoundrels have caused demands punishment.
I'm sure they'll spend years in prison, but their assets are negligable, so the company involved will have to be sued to generate significant financial compensation (which along with losing its license will probably bankrupt it).
It's all about the fucking money to you, isn't? You know, all the money in the world is not going to heal this hurt or restore one body intact to its grave. I don't think these people want money, they want their relatives intact and in a proper gravesite.

As it happens, the owners of the cemetery turned these people in and are cooperating with the investigation. They may, in fact, be in the clear. The "assets" would be those of the actual culprits, and it's not determined yet if the cemetery will or won't lose its license. And if they did sue the cemetery and bankrupt it... what then? Who wins here? It's not like they're going to simply let the cemetery rot and go to weeds, someone will have to step in to take care of what's already there.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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Broomstick wrote:You ignorant fuck - you have NO CLUE about American burial customs, do you?
US and European burial practice isn't that difference. Both regions have a similar mix of traditions, with traditional interment leading but a fair amount of cremation, and lots of regional and ethnic variation.
But, of course, any custom other than one you, personally, approve of is worthless, right? Fuck you, you insensitive prick.
Burying bodies is harmless; it uses up land, but that's not a problem in the US (more of an issue in the UK). I don't have any particular feelings for or against it.
As for the "10,000 year prison sentence" - that is Marina's idea, not that of a legal scholar.
So? I was arguing against Marina's position. That and to a certain extent, as with the Ayers rock thread, I tried to add a viewpoint other than 'oh yes terrible me too moral outrage rah conventional wisdom good'
What the fuck country do you live in? They sure as hell DO hand down a stricter sentence for burning a whole street of houses as opposed to just one in these parts, mister.
Cumulative consecutive sentences for each item of property damaged are rare though. Unsurprisingly, because the logical result of that would be 'prison sentence = ( (damage in dollars) * Q ) + ( (hours of sobbing caused) * P ) months' and that generally isn't how we want our legal system to work.
their assets are negligable, so the company involved will have to be sued to generate significant financial compensation (which along with losing its license will probably bankrupt it).
It's all about the fucking money to you, isn't? You know, all the money in the world is not going to heal this hurt or restore one body intact to its grave.
Yes, and? Practically, the authorities can lock the criminals up and try to return the remains. They are doing that to the best of their abilities, what more is there to be said? Meanwhile I am quite certain that plenty of families will seek financial compensation, because that is overwhelmingly what happens in the US when people are wronged.
I don't think these people want money, they want their relatives intact and in a proper gravesite.
A good fraction of them will want both.
And if they did sue the cemetery and bankrupt it... what then? Who wins here?
No one, but there will be a new company responsible for management and an object lesson that will hopefully dissaude other idiots from trying the same thing.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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Vympel wrote:I'd be surprised if the sensationalist talk of 5,000 graves or whatever is remotely accurate. The 300+ graves referred to are heinous enough, but these scumbags did apparently limit their criminality to old graves that hadn't been visited in a while. It seems unlikely that of 5,000 graves they'd all be too old to be regularly visited. That's only natural - who wants to get caught, right?
Burr Oak originated in the 19th Century. It was the first cemetery for African Americans in the Chicago area and for a long time the only place black people could be buried in the area. It is entirely possible for there to be 5,000 seldom or never visited graves there. It's a huge place, after all, and in use for over 150 years.
Anyway, one thing I can't stand to see in cemeteries are really old graves - you know, the person died back in 1930, and absolutely no one alive remembers them, the gravestone is almost unreadable.
Yes, well, "1930" may be old, but Burr Oak has graves at least back to the 1880's and probably older than that. The only reason I say "probably" is because 1883 is the oldest date I can recall hearing, I'm pretty sure the cemetery is significantly older than that. Black people showed up pretty early in these parts, in fact one of the very first non-native businesses in the area was supposedly a trading post owned and run by a man of African descent

Just a "few" people showed up
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A pile composed of broken headstones and burial vaults - there is more than one on the grounds, apparently:
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

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Starglider wrote:
Broomstick wrote:You ignorant fuck - you have NO CLUE about American burial customs, do you?
US and European burial practice isn't that difference. Both regions have a similar mix of traditions, with traditional interment leading but a fair amount of cremation, and lots of regional and ethnic variation.
Good lord - we just had a thread on how the damn EATING customs differ between the US and Europe. Perhaps you like to believe we're all just British people who talk funny over here but we aren't. No, you don't have a "similar mix of traditions". I'm sorry, the UK is NOT as diverse as the US although you certainly have quite a mix. Just because a majority of Americans plonk their dead into the ground in a manner superficially identical to what often occurs in the UK does not mean all customs around death are identical, and I certainly wouldn't be so arrogant as to assume the customs of white Englishmen are identical to black Americans.

I don't suppose it occurred to you that in an ethnic group that for a couple centuries was bought and sold as property, who through that time and considerably afterward was viewed as disposable, having their dead dug up and thrown away like trash would be PARTICULARLY galling and painful? Can you perhaps wrap your mind around that viewpoint for just a microsecond?
But, of course, any custom other than one you, personally, approve of is worthless, right? Fuck you, you insensitive prick.
Burying bodies is harmless; it uses up land, but that's not a problem in the US (more of an issue in the UK). I don't have any particular feelings for or against it.
Which is exactly my point - YOU don't have a feeling either way, therefore it is incomprehensible to you that someone else DOES have strong feelings about the subject.
What the fuck country do you live in? They sure as hell DO hand down a stricter sentence for burning a whole street of houses as opposed to just one in these parts, mister.
Cumulative consecutive sentences for each item of property damaged are rare though.
Not here they aren't rare.
Unsurprisingly, because the logical result of that would be 'prison sentence = ( (damage in dollars) * Q ) + ( (hours of sobbing caused) * P ) months' and that generally isn't how we want our legal system to work.
What the fuck are you nattering on about here?
their assets are negligable, so the company involved will have to be sued to generate significant financial compensation (which along with losing its license will probably bankrupt it).
It's all about the fucking money to you, isn't? You know, all the money in the world is not going to heal this hurt or restore one body intact to its grave.
Yes, and? Practically, the authorities can lock the criminals up and try to return the remains. They are doing that to the best of their abilities, what more is there to be said? Meanwhile I am quite certain that plenty of families will seek financial compensation, because that is overwhelmingly what happens in the US when people are wronged.
Except there will be no money to be had - and any lawyer will tell them that. Even if you go after the owners of the cemetery (who are headquartered in Arizona, I believe - Carolyn Towns was hired to run things on-site and was apparently the ringleader of this merry band of grave robbers) it's doubtful that, after legal fees, there would be anything left for the grieving, not with so many people involved. You will only get a class action lawsuit if there are deep pockets to go after.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by Patrick Degan »

How will they possibly unwind this mess and get the deceased back into their proper gravesites? Did the cemetery keep any sort of records on who was buried where? You'd think they would have to each time it was necessary to allocate space for a gravesite. Basically, a long and tedious process of DNA-testing to match up which body part or skeletal part matches up with which family and cross-reference with the records.

Otherwise, though it is the less palatable option, the practicable one would be to place all the body and skeletal parts into a common mausoleum, with the names of each uprooted individual carved onto a marble wall. In the end, that may be the only option available.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by phongn »

Patrick Degan wrote:How will they possibly unwind this mess and get the deceased back into their proper gravesites? Did the cemetery keep any sort of records on who was buried where? You'd think they would have to each time it was necessary to allocate space for a gravesite. Basically, a long and tedious process of DNA-testing to match up which body part or skeletal part matches up with which family and cross-reference with the records.
The articles mentioned that the records in question were destroyed.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by Starglider »

Broomstick wrote:Good lord - we just had a thread on how the damn EATING customs differ between the US and Europe... I'm sorry, the UK is NOT as diverse as the US although you certainly have quite a mix.
I realise it's a common problem for Americans, but please try not to confuse the UK and the whole of Europe.
I certainly wouldn't be so arrogant as to assume the customs of white Englishmen are identical to black Americans.
We have plenty of evangelicals here you know, ones with dark skins even.
I don't suppose it occurred to you that in an ethnic group that for a couple centuries was bought and sold as property, who through that time and considerably afterward was viewed as disposable, having their dead dug up and thrown away like trash would be PARTICULARLY galling and painful?
Actually no it didn't, so congratulations on making your first actual insight on the subject. That said do you have a source for that or is it just supposition on your part?
Which is exactly my point - YOU don't have a feeling either way, therefore it is incomprehensible to you that someone else DOES have strong feelings about the subject.
Oh, don't be ridiculous. People get deeply emotionally invested in all sorts of different things, many bizarre, but few of them incomprehensible. Investing mortal remains with irrational significance is an extremely common human trait, and it's probably the easiest form of animism to understand.
Cumulative consecutive sentences for each item of property damaged are rare though.
Not here they aren't rare.
Well, I will have to take your word for that, although it the region does seems to have a more retributive style of criminal justice than the UK or indeed most of the US.
Unsurprisingly, because the logical result of that would be 'prison sentence = ( (damage in dollars) * Q ) + ( (hours of sobbing caused) * P ) months' and that generally isn't how we want our legal system to work.
What the fuck are you nattering on about here?
Oh I forgot, you're the one who can't handle any sort of maths or rigor, no matter how basic. I guess that's forgivable here, though fucking hilarious when you do it in technology threads. Dumbing it down for you, most legal experts do not think a linear correlation between damage caused and length of sentence is optimal for either reforming the offender or deterring other criminals. Damn, wait, 'correlation' still has too many syllables for you and 'optimal' smacks of intellectualism or elitism or something. Just forget the whole thing ok?
I believe - Carolyn Towns was hired to run things on-site and was apparently the ringleader of this merry band of grave robbers) it's doubtful that, after legal fees, there would be anything left for the grieving, not with so many people involved.
Regrettably, if there is enough to pay fat legal fees I am sure there will be lawyers encouraging people to support a lawsuit even if there are negligable payouts for the plaintiffs. After all, at the very least someone will have to pay for reburial of the remains that can be indentified. That would certainly compound the tragedy if it causes years of legal wrangling, keeping wounds open for no benefit to anyone but the lawyers.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by Broomstick »

Starglider wrote:
Broomstick wrote:Good lord - we just had a thread on how the damn EATING customs differ between the US and Europe... I'm sorry, the UK is NOT as diverse as the US although you certainly have quite a mix.
I realise it's a common problem for Americans, but please try not to confuse the UK and the whole of Europe.
I understand the distinction, asshole. Apparently you are unable to comprehend when I change from discussing Europe to discussing just the UK. Please try to keep up with the conversation.
I certainly wouldn't be so arrogant as to assume the customs of white Englishmen are identical to black Americans.
We have plenty of evangelicals here you know, ones with dark skins even.
Why on Earth would you assume dark-skinned Brits have the same culture as dark-skinned Americans? That makes no sense at all.
I don't suppose it occurred to you that in an ethnic group that for a couple centuries was bought and sold as property, who through that time and considerably afterward was viewed as disposable, having their dead dug up and thrown away like trash would be PARTICULARLY galling and painful?
Actually no it didn't, so congratulations on making your first actual insight on the subject. That said do you have a source for that or is it just supposition on your part?
I grew up in Detroit and live in Gary, Indiana - both cities that are 80%+ black. Shouldn't be a mystery to you that I have some clue as to what the ethnic majority in my city thinks about major topics. It's totally supplanted Michael Jackson as a topic of conversation among the public. Really, I'd prefer to have the MJ bullshit back.
Which is exactly my point - YOU don't have a feeling either way, therefore it is incomprehensible to you that someone else DOES have strong feelings about the subject.
Oh, don't be ridiculous. People get deeply emotionally invested in all sorts of different things, many bizarre, but few of them incomprehensible. Investing mortal remains with irrational significance is an extremely common human trait, and it's probably the easiest form of animism to understand.
What the FUCK does "animism" have to do with it? These people don't worship their ancestors, and they don't believe in spirits inhabiting the world around them, they are overwhelmingly Christian in belief.

Even atheists are capable of having a sentimental attachment to the dead, it's not some silly superstition for you to look down upon and sneer at. People are not Vulcans, they are not coolly logical at all times, and it's ridiculous to pretend they should be.
Unsurprisingly, because the logical result of that would be 'prison sentence = ( (damage in dollars) * Q ) + ( (hours of sobbing caused) * P ) months' and that generally isn't how we want our legal system to work.
What the fuck are you nattering on about here?
Oh I forgot, you're the one who can't handle any sort of maths or rigor, no matter how basic.
No, you fucking jackass, you haven't defined "P" and "Q". How about defining all your goddamned terms so people don't have to fucking GUESS what the hell you're talking about?
I believe - Carolyn Towns was hired to run things on-site and was apparently the ringleader of this merry band of grave robbers) it's doubtful that, after legal fees, there would be anything left for the grieving, not with so many people involved.
Regrettably, if there is enough to pay fat legal fees I am sure there will be lawyers encouraging people to support a lawsuit even if there are negligable payouts for the plaintiffs. After all, at the very least someone will have to pay for reburial of the remains that can be indentified. That would certainly compound the tragedy if it causes years of legal wrangling, keeping wounds open for no benefit to anyone but the lawyers.
It is unlikely there will be sufficient funds for a "fat legal fee". Burr Oak has been run a shoestring most of its existence, it has serious problems that funds were never available to address, and now the on-site manager not only truly fucked the place up, it looks like she ran off with several hundred thousand dollars. Lawyers do not take on cases they can't win, or where there is no money to be had. A contingency on nothing is nothing.

And no, there is NO obligation for ANY party to pay for reburial unless ordered to do so by a court. It is extremely likely that if these people are to be reburied the families will wind up having to pay for it - a problem, as some families have five or six generations of relatives buried there. Remember, the US lacks most safety nets other countries take for granted.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Wacky. Seems to me at a certain point they might just have to mass-grave all the ones they couldn't figure out. Its a bit strange for me to understand, my family has always cremated our dead, and I've never felt compelled to visit the ashes of my mother's parents, which are walled up in a memorial mausoleum somewhere in Fresno.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by Superboy »

I'm a bit confused. Before this all came to light, what were people told when they came to visit the graves of loved ones who had been dug up? I know they targeted mostly old graves that nobody visited, but with all the people now searching and unable to find the graves of relatives, it seems obvious that some newer graves were hit too.

As for the importance of having a grave to visit, it's invaluable to some and meaningless to others. My sister’s husband passed away a little over a year ago and I don’t think she has ever visited his grave. She loved him and grieves for him but doesn’t believe she’ll gain any comfort from seeing his grave.

I visit the grave of a friend at least once a month. It's not rational or practical (and it's even a little creepy when you think about it) but it provides emotional comfort to me. I can't imagine how outraged I would be if I found out someone had dug up her grave and treated her body with such disrespect.

That said, I don't think these guys should be sentenced as harshly as murderers. They were horribly selfish and reckless but they're entire plan seems to have rested on the hope that no one would notice and therefore no one would care or be harmed by their actions. They should certainly go to jail for a long time, but it doesn't seem right to me that murderers don't always get life in prison but these guys likely will.
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Re: This is horrifying... but oh, so , captalistic

Post by Bounty »

It was the first cemetery for African Americans in the Chicago area and for a long time the only place black people could be buried in the area.
The idea of segregated cemeteries shouldn't surprise me, but from what I can gather, the cemetery only dates back to the late-19th century - where were burials held before then? Out in the countryside?

Also, Broomstick, I'm not sure if the practice exists in the US (by your reaction, I'd wager it doesn't), but in Europe it is customary to only lease a burial plot for a few decades and then exhume the body to be put away in an ossuary and make room for a new burial. Now, of course there is an unimaginable leap between this practice, which is done with proper respect and full knowledge of the family, and what has happened in this incident, but it might explain why Starglider seems a bit glib.
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