"New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

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"New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Erik von Nein »

What does this mean? Well, apparently there has been a fairly large storm brewing in the scientific VS religious debate going on. People like Dawkins and PZ Myers are being taken to task by those such as Chris Mooney over their tactics.

Mooney, in a recently released book, Unscientific America, described what Dawkins and the (so-called) "New Atheists" are doing as being as bad at widening the gap between science and religion as those who are heavily religious.

Along these lines a metaphor was born, attempting to describe what this widening gap is like. A blogger, Lousy Canuck, came up with the two boats metaphor. On one of these boats sit the atheists and scientists, the other the religious.
Lousy Canuck wrote:Two boats tethered together on a lake

I’m going to extend Greg Laden’s metaphor proclaiming (rightly, in my opinion) that the so-called “New Atheists” and the so-called “accommodationists” are in the same boat and bickering about what amounts to be the 1% difference between their philosophies. But first I’m going to set the stage for this rant, and I’m also going to do what a number of people in this Internet High Dudgeon have done — define all my terms (favorably to my argument, naturally).

Ever since crackergate, when PZ Myers pierced a cracker with a rusty nail and threw it away in an act of Great Import and Great Insult to the Catholic community, the atheist blogosphere has developed, in Greg’s words, a “great rift”. This rift divided those that think one should be respectful of others’ beliefs and quietly try to steer the religious toward science by example, even where their religious beliefs come into direct contradiction with science (so named “accommodationists”); and those that think there’s nothing special about religious beliefs and they should be discussed as heatedly as other ideas like who you’ll be voting for, or where to eat lunch (so named “New Atheists”). These two subfactions of atheistic thought have been clashing over their 1% difference, ignoring that the 99% difference that makes them science-loving atheists means they’re both pulling for the same end. That 1% makes up, entirely, what tactics to use and how accomodating (thus the name) one should be of belief systems that will inevitably (in the eyes of the New Atheists) come into direct conflict with our shared goals.

Recently, Chris Mooney of The Intersection wrote an article that raised my hackles, and crystallized my thoughts on this matter, when he suggested that we who argue on the side of science need to be careful not to alienate those religious moderates who accept some science already. To these people, Mooney says, we should defer; we should avoid shaking the foundations of their religion where they intersect with real science, because they have carefully built up walls to compartmentalize away their beliefs in the supernatural with their understanding of the natural and should these walls come down, who knows what side they may end up on? Mooney followed this up with a book (Full disclosure: Greg Laden’s partner code) in which he excoriated people like PZ Myers for not deferring enough to the religious’ irrationally held beliefs — like, say, that a piece of unleavened bread is somehow actually a piece of Jesus’ flesh and so doing something other than cannibalism is disrespectful of their “living God”. PZ cracked his knuckles and joined the fray with an unfavorable review of the book, on not only the basis that his own philosophy, blog, and commenters were directly insulted, but also that the book tells us everything that we already know about America being unscientific but doesn’t offer any good path forward (except for the paths forward that are put forth and roundly criticized by PZ anyway). Chris responded by attacking one of PZ’s commenters (without first identifying it as being a “representative”, meaning cherry-picked, comment, as opposed to PZ’s actual words, as Chris is a very busy man and doesn’t have time what with the book and all! — though six hours later he “clarified”), rather than answering the charges in PZ’s actual review; and in the meantime the existence of disgusting comments in Chris’ own threads apparently does not reflect upon him because he has filtered the word “bitch” now, suddenly and with great fanfare (despite his lack of time to answer PZ’s actual charges).

Enough setting the stage. I don’t want to poison the well too much in this one. The links speak for themselves.

Now, “New Atheist” needs definition as well, specifically because I don’t happen to believe there’s anything “new” about them. A “New Atheist” is merely an atheist who is not content to hide his/her beliefs so as to avoid raising the ire of the throngs of religious that surround us. They are “new” in that the main mode of atheists for the last fifty or so years has been to “not flaunt it” so as not to “annoy the religious”. Are you seeing any parallels with the homosexual rights movement yet, where conservatives say “I don’t have any problems with gays, as long as they don’t act gay in front of me”? Perhaps the parallel will serve to illustrate why so many atheists are upset by the 1% difference between them and Chris Mooney. Personally, I don’t much understand why atheists who happen to be “out”, so to speak, and happen to be particularly vociferous about their “out-ness”, have to also lead the religious by example, and show them that one can have a belief system that one does not have to advocate to others. In other words, the religious are the ones who proselytize, and we should show that we are better than them by being quiet and sitting down and letting the religious say their piece until we can meekly point them to the science and apologize for rattling their world views. What makes religion so special, in Douglas Adams’ words, that “it’s perfectly legitimate to support the Labour party or the Conservative party, Republicans or Democrats, this model of economics versus that, Macintosh instead of Windows, but to have an opinion about how the Universe began, about who created the Universe, no, that’s holy?”

My problem with deferring to the religious on religious matters is not that we should be civil with these people while shaking their belief systems — but that we should not merely be silent when the belief systems contradict that which is provable and in fact fundamental to our understanding of the universe. I absolutely agree that it is important to be civil while talking to someone — so that your meaning is not lost amongst the noise that an outright insult causes. However, sometimes the outright insult is what it takes to snap a person free from their own mode of argumentation, especially if their mode involves insults quite heavily.

We are all indeed on boats. The theists are in one boat, even those religious folks who understand and believe in evolution and science. The atheists are in another boat, both accomms and Nouveaus alike. These boats are tethered together on a lake, with the tether itself being the general public. Science is at one shore, and antiscience / faith / dogmatic religion on the other. These shores are mutually exclusive, despite some people’s claims; one cannot be on both shores at the same time, and if one IS on “both shores” it is because one is straddling the lake (and it’s a gigantic lake), and not merely on one of the side shores where the two beaches meet (because, let’s say, there’s jungles made up of tangled cognitive dissonance preventing one from doing so). Inside the boats, the “New Atheists” are paddling like the dickens to get both boats to the Science shore. They do not care that sometimes the splashing is getting occupants from the other boat wet occasionally. The accomodationists are asking the News to “please be careful not to splash the other boat, because we’re trying to convince them to stop rowing”. The “New Atheists” see this as “please stop trying so hard”.

Meanwhile, in the other boat, the people like Ken Miller, the religious moderates who believe in most (but not all) science, who are willing to take some things on faith in absence of evidence in a very unscientific manner, are either half-heartedly rowing or have abstained from rowing at all. They are mostly just along for the ride, and either don’t realize there’s even another boat or another shore behind them, or in some cases (like Miller), they realize it and see it, and are paddling toward the science shore with one oar and the religious shore with the other. They are not helping the situation at all for either party. These are the people the accomodationists are asking to stop rowing. They are in the minority on their boat. The remainder of their boat is made up of the very-religious who, while paddling like the dickens, are also, like the “New Atheists”, splashing the occupants of the other boat. And nobody is asking them to stop splashing, because to do so would get you summarily thrown out of the religious boat. The lake is littered with bodies that have been thrown overboard to sacrifice the “dead weight” from the religious boat, and as such, the religious boat has actually made some headway and the whole tethered rig is about a quarter closer to the religious shore than the science shore. Meanwhile, the very-religious keep trying to throw molotov cocktails over their shoulders in the form of poisoning children to the concept of science by attacking the education system, demonizing the scientific as evil sub-humans that are okay to kill now and then, and doing whatever is necessary to keep atheists from being listened to by the public. Once in a while they manage to light our boat on fire, but all the splashing keeps the fire from destroying the rig, just singing people now and then and maybe destroying an oar or two in the process.

Some of the atheists cry foul over this. Some try to make their own molotov cocktails, though the efforts invariably fail. The accommodationists demand that we not stoop to their level. People like PZ Myers mock the other side for having to throw cocktails, and people like Mooney keep elbowing the people like PZ in the head for it. Meanwhile, the religious are succeeding at pulling both our boats further and further toward the religious shore, wherein lies the promise of a new Dark Age.

The answer for us “New Atheists” is obviously not to throw Chris Mooney, or any other accomodationist, out of the boat. Nor is it to stop splashing so hard. Nor is it to stop asking the other side to stop rowing so hard. I don’t know what the actual answer IS, but one would think it would involve somehow stopping the religious from throwing molotov cocktails and countering their anti-scientific efforts in the real, as in non-metaphorical, world. It would also involve being a little more convincing, so that hopefully people like Ken Miller will eventually stop rowing one oar in the wrong direction.

And it would probably involve getting people like Mooney to stop elbowing people like PZ in the head repeatedly. And by my reading, any elbows thrown by PZ are in retaliation only.

So, where do you stand? Personally, I agree that atheists should not just meekly accept criticism, as will, I think, most of this board. Focusing on the religious moderates might have some success, but they will, as Canuck expressed, be thrown off the theist boat. Religious entrenchment in America is nearly impossible to uproot, but Dawkins is as needed as people who get labeled Accommodationists, but for different targets. Accommodationists are, most likely, more helpful toward converting people who are already sympathetic to the idea of scientific explanations of the universe, whereas Dawkins would be useful to, well, keep doing what he does.

There's room for both methods, and starting to go at each other's throats is just going to make it easier for theists to stand lock-step against any efforts made.

James, over at Island of Doubt, gives his go at defending the so-called Accommodationist side in this post.

In a way it reminds me both of the debate going on between shark conservationists (at Southern Fried Scientist it was sparked off again with his his interview with Discovery Channel's Paul Gasek, chief science editor about Shark Week) and the historical debate that went on between Martin Luther King Jr. and those against his tactics of civil disobedience.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Feil »

As I see it, there are two kinds of atheists and 2 kinds of people in general:

Atheists who are atheists for a good reason (rational atheists)

Atheists who are atheists for bad reasons (irrational atheists)

People who take offense at untruth

People who don't give a damn about what anybody else believes or promotes

The intersection of rational atheists and people who give a damn about the truth are going to be your "new atheists". Irrational atheists who take offense at perceived untruth are the loud-mouthed self-righteous cocks and self-absorbed ingrates who give rational atheists a bad name. Everyone else is going to be an Accommodationist.

Anybody but a total asshole is going to be at least partially Accommodationist - there's no sense starting fights, or being disrespectful or disruptive in settings where people are trying to understand their own religion or pass it on to their children. On the other hand, when people try to advocate their beliefs to others, they've put them on the table for discussion, and disputing a falsehood in an argument made to you or a group which includes you is commendable.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Darth Wong »

Frankly, this "war" between the "accomodationists" and the "new atheists" is being conducted almost entirely by one side. While the "new atheists" will say that the "accomodationists'" position is illogical or empty-headed, the "accomodationists" are much more aggressive, and tend to declare that the "new atheists" are downright evil, obnoxious, anti-social, may have emotional problems, are just as bad as religious fanatics, etc. Does that really sound like two sides "sniping" at each other, or more like one side screeching and hurling feces at the other while the other tells him he's being stupid?
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Traveller »

The core problem that "new atheists" have with "accomodationists" can be summarized this way. PZ and others feel, with some justification, that the accos(for short), are attempting to sell so-called "moderate" bible thumpers the idea that they can have their evolution cake and eat it too. The hope is to either get them "on-side" at best, or at the very least, to stop supporting the hard-core fundies. While this may sound somewhat absolutist, for scientists, either a concept is "true", (in the scientific sense of the word), or it is not. Someone like Dawkins would have little use for a theory that is "sorta-kinda true", nor do they have a lot of patience for people that hold mutually contradictory beliefs. Dawkins has spoken and written on this very point numerous times.

"When two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly half way between. It is possible for one side simply to be wrong." -Richard Dawkins

So for RD, and others, creationism, is demonstrably false. He does not see the value of compromising with creationists simply to spare their "feelings". And really why should he? Interestingly enough, I have heard the other side of this argument. Flat-earthers are not usually very candid about their motives, but once in a while you can get them to speak clearly (at least for a creationist). Ken Ham, arch-moron, when asked about why he was so militant about the whole issue more or less said, unquote, Either evolution is true, or creation is true. For him and others, they both cannot be true or even "partly true" to a creationist. For him, its literally a battle for survival, for a scientist, the issue is even more basic, is it acceptable to compromise what we know to be factual, simply to accommodate a belief system we know to be false? For RD or PZM, the answer is clearly no, for Ken Ham and his ilk, well, they feel the same. This explains why hard-core flat-earth style fundies reserve as much hatred and contempt for "theistic-evolution" as they do for actual evilutionists. That’s what gets them tossed out of the boat. The way I see it is, if we accept something to be "True", at least in the sense of, proven beyond any reasonable doubt, why would I or anyone, want to water down that which we hold to be "True". Does this mean a fact gets transformed into a sort-of-True? or a true-with-certain-qualifiers-attached-for-religious-reasons-true? That wanders too close to the old-flat-earther canard, "Evolution is just a theory" to me.

What helped triggered this entire issue (maybe not the sole reason) came up eariler this year. It all began with the NCSE publishing a statement advising anyone that cared how to reconcile their "faith" with science. They also added to that bits about how evolution does not = Atheism. Well, that caused a minor shit-storm of sorts. Some(well PZM) felt the NCSE was definitely straying way too far into fundy-territory, and of course, others didn’t really see the harm. The NCSE went from position that was fairly neutral (as much as you can be), to actively promoting and endorsing religion, that’s how some perceived it at any rate. The acommodationists, generally tended to insist there was nothing wrong with there statement, or that at the very least, it was a good tactical move. Naturally, not everyone agreed. The NCSE has revamped it website and I can no longer find the "Reconcile your faith with science" nonsense.

This is how it reads now.

What is NCSE's religious position?
None. The National Center for Science Education is not affiliated with any religious organization or belief. We and our members enthusiastically support the right of every individual to hold, practice, and advocate their beliefs, religious or non-religious. Our members range from devout practitioners of several religions to atheists, with many shades of belief in between. What unites them is a conviction that science and the scientific method, and not any particular religious belief, should determine science curriculum.

If you’re interested in seeing how this particular issue played out, you can read it here:

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2009/04 ... ers-w.html

For myself, To "believe" in Evolution AND creationism", is like saying "Shes a just little bit pregnant".
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Darth Wong »

Believing in both evolution and creation is like believing that lightning is explained by both electromagnetism and Zeus. Sorry, but if we have electromagnetism, we don't need Zeus.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Covenant »

It's an over-wrought metaphor, but the problem still exists that there isn't and never was a divide, except the perennial divide between people who will speak their minds when asked and people who will apologize for their minds when asked to speak it. The problem people have, and a popular concept among the "stay in the lake" Agnostics, is that they believe the opposition to religion as an institution will invariably leave more people as intractable faithful. If this was true, it might be an arguement for their position, but I've never seen any variety of evidence that it is true. It just seems like a lovely excuse to do nothing except try to encourage science education.

I think there's too much of an obsession with the primacy of science among atheists anyway. It should not always be a battle between science and faith, being nontheist is more than being sciencey. Religions, as institutions, make claims about events and they also inform worldviews and philosophies. Those things aren't always co-dependant, someone can be a religious asshole and believe in evolution. As someone who dropped faith because of a confrontation, rather than accomidation, I feel like the middle-grounders are actually doing me and others who were like me a disservice by not telling us what the truth is. If you have respect for someone you'll challenge their idiotic beliefs.

I can understand their moral terror--wondering if they're doing more harm than good by being confrontational. But they aren't, by anything I've seen, heard, or experienced. I know that a lot of dutifully faithful folk find noisy atheists aggrivating, but they're not going to be converted through kind words anyway. The only other people who seem to be so upset are the agnostics and the relatively cowardly 'accomidationalists' or whatever this guy called them. Pretty ridiculous stuff. Can anyone point to a big, popular idea or prejudice that went away simply on it's own, without confrontation? I can think of lots of non-violent protest and confrontation that helped de-institutionalize bad patterns of thought and action, but I can't think of any that got it done just by patting the fence straddlers on the back.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Darth Wong »

Precisely: people often say that you're never going to change anyones' minds by confronting them aggressively, but I have never seen any shred of evidence that you will be more successful at changing their minds by humouring their existing attitudes. Worse yet, if you allow them to think you're one of them, you allow them to cling to their absurd caricatures and stereotypes about atheists.

It is not a coincidence that people in multi-racial communities are less likely to be racist. Why? Because they see these people often enough to recognize them as real 3-dimensional people, not 2-dimensional caricatures. Similarly, religious people who interact with openly atheist neighbours are more likely to admit that an atheist is a real 3-dimensional person with social values and moral quality, not some ridiculous 2-dimensional caricature of a slavering demonically influenced psychopath with no morality and no real personality. By being openly, aggressively atheist, we force Christians to recognize us as real people. If we lay low, we allow Christians to continue defining atheists for us. And we know how they've defined atheists in the past; don't expect it to change if you don't speak up.

As a matter of fact, most Christian propagandists portray the "new atheists" as being far more aggressive than real atheists. If real atheists aggressively make their views known, they will actually appear moderate when compared to the psychotic caricatures promoted by Chick tracts and other bullshit Christian propaganda. They don't need to be fence-sitters or humour Christian beliefs. Atheists tolerate Christianity; this does not mean they need to pretend they think it's not absurd.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Simon_Jester »

I, for one, agree with the "new atheists" on the issue of teaching people to think scientifically and with the "accomodationists" on statements specifically about religion. Here's why:

Let us stipulate for the sake of argument that only people who scientifically about the world become an atheist.* It's obvious that if you don't think about the world scientifically, there's no telling where you'll end up, as proven by all the crazy places people end up. Therefore, if you want to make more atheists, you should first try to teach people to think scientifically. Teaching them to think scientifically takes precedence over teaching them not to believe in crystal magic; once you manage the first the second will follow.

For that matter, even if you don't want to make more atheists, you should first teach people to think scientifically. Even among people who are not strongly religious, a depressing number do not understand and do not use scientific thought. That's worth the effort it takes to change it; a lot of problems would probably go away if more people could think straight.
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If you want to teach people to think scientifically, your best angle of attack is one that they're don't have a mental defense in depth over. Get the habit of thinking "how do I know this is true?" and the ability to understand why someone with a doctoral degree is more likely to understand the issue than some random person, and you'll end up winning by default.

But it's a lot easier to get past their guard on non-religious issues. Telling a fundie that God does not exist is not going to teach him anything, because it's sheer nonsense to him. Clearly, he thinks, you are delusional, and therefore all your future opinions should be ignored. Not good.

Explain to a fundie the difference between medicine that's gone through peer-reviewed double-blind studies and the homeopathic junk he picks up online, and there's a decent chance that he'll actually get it. Much better, and the lesson he learns from that can then be applied to other issues. Religion is not likely to be one of those issues unless they really get in the habit of thinking about their assumptions. But I'd prefer a fundie who understands science and remains a fundie to one who doesn't understand science, remains a fundie, and spews dangerous society-damaging gibberish because of their ignorance.
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This is a separate issue from teaching religious people to understand and tolerate atheists. On that subject, I agree with Darth Wong; the correct answer is to be open enough about one's beliefs, and about the fact that one is not unique, that they are forced to get used to them.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Tolya »

I've read what is basically a review of the Unscientific America by PZ Myers. Apparently, one of the main points of the book is that scientist care more for the actual truth than the accesibility of their work. Which for some reasons is bad because science should be a fucking entertainment business.

Haven't read the book yet tho, so I can't say how valid Myers criticism is.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Simon_Jester »

There's a limit on how much science can accomplish if it can't convey ideas to people of average intelligence, as opposed to the freakishly intelligent people that science selects for in its own workforce. As an example, consider "alternative medicine." There is no logical reason why anyone still thinks homeopathy works; the basic principles of homeopathy are so transparently stupid that almost no one takes them seriously when they are presented honestly.

And that was just as true fifty years ago as it is now. The reason homeopathy survives is that medical science does not do an adequate job of presenting its own arguments and defining its terms. The average person is not presented with the kind of information that would let them make a rational decision. And that is a flaw in the institution of science, because people suffer and die when they don't have to because of this confusion.
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If you can't explain something to a specific person because they are stupid, it's not your fault. But if you can't explain something to the entire human race because they are "stupid," things are a bit more ambiguous. It's not your fault that people have buggy brains, but it is your fault that you neglected to take the bugs into account.

So if we're going to sit around moaning about how people are stupid and don't think rationally or clearly,* we have to recognize that people who can think clearly really ought to teach people who can't how to do so. It's not like they're going to figure it out for themselves. And if they don't learn, it makes a lot of the results of clear thinking worthless because the majority won't go along with it.

*Which seems to be a popular pastime in the intelligentsia...
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Samuel »

And that was just as true fifty years ago as it is now. The reason homeopathy survives is that medical science does not do an adequate job of presenting its own arguments and defining its terms. The average person is not presented with the kind of information that would let them make a rational decision. And that is a flaw in the institution of science, because people suffer and die when they don't have to because of this confusion.
Why don't the people who look into it realize it is bullshit? How difficult is "it doesn't work" for them to grasp?
*Which seems to be a popular pastime in the intelligentsia...
In other news Ireland made blashphemy a crime... hey, there is a reason the elite think the populance is made of morons.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Darth Wong »

Simon_Jester wrote:There's a limit on how much science can accomplish if it can't convey ideas to people of average intelligence, as opposed to the freakishly intelligent people that science selects for in its own workforce. As an example, consider "alternative medicine." There is no logical reason why anyone still thinks homeopathy works; the basic principles of homeopathy are so transparently stupid that almost no one takes them seriously when they are presented honestly.
I could say the exact opposite of what you're saying: that if science tries to dumb down its idea for mass consumption, then the morons start to get the uppity notion that they actually understand science, when they don't. This makes them more amenable to pseudoscientific bullshit, because they no longer defer to experts and instead think they can make their own independent judgment.

The idea that you can actually give the average person enough understanding of science to judge the validity of scientific claims on his own is pure pie-in-the-sky idiocy. He is not smart enough and not enthusiastic enough to do the work to learn this material. The average person is a moron, and any attempt to dumb down ideas for his consumption only results in horribly butchered misconceptions being thrown around like party favours.

Would you say that the problem with surgeons is their refusal to dumb down their material for the commoner? The last thing you want is for the commoner to think he understands how to perform surgery.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Junghalli »

Darth Wong wrote:I could say the exact opposite of what you're saying: that if science tries to dumb down its idea for mass consumption, then the morons start to get the uppity notion that they actually understand science, when they don't. This makes them more amenable to pseudoscientific bullshit, because they no longer defer to experts and instead think they can make their own independent judgment.
On the other hand, simply telling people "no, X is wrong" without any attempt to explain why in terms they can understand may create doubt or resentment. Doubt, because they lack the ability to evaluate the claim for themselves, so how do they know it's any more valid than what the crystal-fondlers are peddling? You're asking them to take your word on trust, and if they don't trust you, well, things get sticky. Resentment because people naturally resent being treated as if they are incompetent, even if they actually are. In fact, perhaps especially if they actually are (there was a study done that suggests incompetent people tend to have more inflated views of their own competence than actually competent people - link). It's worse when you're trying to attack ideas people may have become emotionally invested in, as often happens, because you've got to overcome an emotional resistance on their part to your claims.

I think perhaps the best solution is to try to get people to comprehend the basics of scientific thought. They don't need to understand everything, but they need to understand enough to realize why the guys with degrees in medicine who have scientific studies backing their conclusions up are more reliable than the crystal-fondlers. The bare bones of scientific thought (conclusions with more evidence behind them are more likely to be true) don't strike me as something that would require unusual intelligence to grasp.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Simon_Jester »

Darth Wong wrote:I could say the exact opposite of what you're saying: that if science tries to dumb down its idea for mass consumption, then the morons start to get the uppity notion that they actually understand science, when they don't. This makes them more amenable to pseudoscientific bullshit, because they no longer defer to experts and instead think they can make their own independent judgment.
You're missing the difference between morons and the ignorant. There are a lot of people out there who have the intelligence to comprehend science, but neither the time nor the inclination to make enough of a study to become anything like a qualified expert in it.

Morons will never understand anything; this is a universal constant. The closest you can come to getting them to understand the difference between science and pseudoscience is to put the morons in superstitious awe of anyone in a lab coat, and I don't think scientists deserve superstitious awe. We screw up; it happens. The whole point of the scientific method is that its products are not the sacred mysteries of some elite cult of initiates; they're something that anyone willing and able to put in the effort can duplicate and understand. If that weren't true, they'd be worthless. Trying to convince the stupid that science is a mystery cult just seems wrong to me.

So I'm resigned to morons believing whatever the hell morons choose to believe, because I don't think I have any honorable way of influencing the thought process of someone who categorically can't understand what I'm saying.
_______

But there's hope for the ignoramuses- the ones who have a functioning brain but don't have much to fill it with. Get them early enough and they'll think rationally; get them later in life and they'll at least learn to be suspicious of people trying to sell them a pile of gibberish.
The idea that you can actually give the average person enough understanding of science to judge the validity of scientific claims on his own is pure pie-in-the-sky idiocy. He is not smart enough and not enthusiastic enough to do the work to learn this material. The average person is a moron, and any attempt to dumb down ideas for his consumption only results in horribly butchered misconceptions being thrown around like party favours.
You missed my point. I'm not talking about being able to do independent evaluation of, say, climate change studies- in the sense of being able to take a pile of data and refine it down to an accurate conclusion. I'm talking about understanding why a peer-reviewed study is right, and why the "global warming is all a controversy" people are wrong. You really don't need all that much intelligence to figure this out.

If you approach people by saying "never mind, just listen to anyone in a lab coat,"* they're either going to ignore you or do what you say. If they ignore you, science loses all influence in public policy, which is dangerous. If they listen to you you're still in trouble because they won't know the difference between a paid shill, a deluded freak, and an honest researcher. If they hear two guys in lab coats disagree, how are they supposed to figure it out?

That's the thing that you can realistically expect to teach the person of average intelligence. You're not trying to teach them how quantum mechanics works. You're trying to explain the method by which physicists found out that quantum mechanics works, and why some guy claiming to have discovered psychic powers that work "because of quantum" doesn't belong in the same category as the actual scientists.

*With the "lab coat" being a symbolic mantle of science- put on the lab coat and you are claiming to be a scientist who presumably knows his shit.
Would you say that the problem with surgeons is their refusal to dumb down their material for the commoner? The last thing you want is for the commoner to think he understands how to perform surgery.
But by remaining a priesthood, surgeons sacrifice their ability to make policy recommendations, because the average man can't tell the difference between a priest of "surgery" and a priest of whatever the hell the superstition of the month is. Someone has to teach him the difference.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Darth Wong »

Simon_Jester wrote:There are a lot of people out there who have the intelligence to comprehend science, but neither the time nor the inclination to make enough of a study to become anything like a qualified expert in it.
How do you know this to be true?

70% of people in America bought into the idea that Saddam Hussein caused 9/11 even though no one ever came right out and said that he did. They just believed it because they got that impression. If you want to convince me that the average person can understand the philosophy of the scientific method, you'll have to do better than just saying so. Most people don't even understand the most elementary concepts of critical thought.
Would you say that the problem with surgeons is their refusal to dumb down their material for the commoner? The last thing you want is for the commoner to think he understands how to perform surgery.
But by remaining a priesthood, surgeons sacrifice their ability to make policy recommendations, because the average man can't tell the difference between a priest of "surgery" and a priest of whatever the hell the superstition of the month is. Someone has to teach him the difference.
That's why the average person simply trusts that actual qualified surgeons and their professional associations deserve a certain amount of deference from the public. They don't trust their own judgment in such matters.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Plushie »

I take exception to anyone who treats atheism as a religion and looks at this debate as one with such clearly defined 'sides'. Not spending a great deal of your time and deriving income from slandering (admittedly, some worthy) religious people is not the same thing as 'sitting down and taking criticism' or however you want to put it. One can put up a good defense, including in the political arena, without going on the attack. Defend your own beliefs, but be prepared to defend those of others you disagree with. All this crazy talk of conversion is the real stupidity. I thought the whole point of being an atheist was not having to deal with all the bullshit organized religions put you through?

In fact, I would think religious fundamentalists would be some of the easiest people to convince of the necessity of political freedom, they invented it ;)
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by TheLostVikings »

Plushie wrote:I take exception to anyone who treats atheism as a religion and looks at this debate as one with such clearly defined 'sides'. Not spending a great deal of your time and deriving income from slandering (admittedly, some worthy) religious people is not the same thing as 'sitting down and taking criticism' or however you want to put it. One can put up a good defense, including in the political arena, without going on the attack. Defend your own beliefs, but be prepared to defend those of others you disagree with. All this crazy talk of conversion is the real stupidity. I thought the whole point of being an atheist was not having to deal with all the bullshit organized religions put you through?
Do you even live on the same planet as the rest of us? The creationism intelligent design movement is working as hard as it can manage to remove evolution from school curriculum, there is no such thing as being "free" from the bullshit of organized religion when one of the important tenets of several of them include spreading missionaries to as many areas of influence as possible in order to actively brainwash convert people to their cause.

If you sit on your ass when your enemies are actively fighting as hard as they can, you are going to find yourself trampled underfoot in short order. (Last time I checked a western nation just made blasphemy ILLEGAL, meaning you can go to JAIL for just discussing your personal opinions as an atheist. Someone is certainly creating sides here rather forcefully...)
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Feil »

Plushie wrote:I take exception to anyone who treats atheism as a religion
Good. So do I...
and looks at this debate as one with such clearly defined 'sides'.
...but this statement doesn't have anything to do with the previous one. The fact that rational application of the scientific method to the question of God results in the answer "the evidence indicates that there is almost certainly no god" conflicts instantly and irrevocably with the claim that "(my) God exists and there is good reason to believe it". That doesn't make the first conclusion a religion.
Not spending a great deal of your time and deriving income from slandering
Provide evidence that any criticisms of religion from the scientific camp are based on lies.
Not spending a great deal of your time and deriving income from slandering (admittedly, some worthy) religious people is not the same thing as 'sitting down and taking criticism' or however you want to put it.
Care to support this assertion?
One can put up a good defense, including in the political arena, without going on the attack.
How?
Defend your own beliefs, but be prepared to defend those of others you disagree with.
Do you realize how fucking stupid this statement is? There is a big difference between defending the freedom to believe stupid things and actually defending stupidity.




EDIT: by "(my) God exists and there is good reason to believe it" I mean people who say things like "the Big Bang is evidence of a creator!!!", not people who effectively say "believing in God is great even though I don't have any evidence for God existing, whether it's true or not it really makes my life better, you should try it".
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Vendetta »

Darth Wong wrote:70% of people in America bought into the idea that Saddam Hussein caused 9/11 even though no one ever came right out and said that he did. They just believed it because they got that impression. If you want to convince me that the average person can understand the philosophy of the scientific method, you'll have to do better than just saying so. Most people don't even understand the most elementary concepts of critical thought.
It's not surprising that most people don't actually practise critical thought. The human brain appears to have evolved to commit absolutely every single logical fallacy going as it's default state in order to produce the fastest result possible. Critical thought takes effort, which wasn't usually necessary in the environment our brains evolved in. That movement in the grasses might not actually be a lion, but you don't lose anything for not going there anyway.

The fact that we can do critical thinking at all is the marvel.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Plushie »

TheLostVikings wrote: Do you even live on the same planet as the rest of us? The creationism intelligent design movement is working as hard as it can manage to remove evolution from school curriculum,
And there are large, just as well organized, just as hard working groups of scientists working against this movement. Successfully, mind. ID is a dead letter, it's just nobody has told the ID people themselves yet.
TheLostVikings wrote:there is no such thing as being "free" from the bullshit of organized religion when one of the important tenets of several of them include spreading missionaries to as many areas of influence as possible in order to actively brainwash convert people to their cause.
Last I checked, we're still free to gate-keep who we spend our time with through such complex social mechanisms as declining to be witnessed and pegging people for harassment if they persist past reasonable limits. By trying to emulate them instead, you foist yourself on other people who are just as un-willing as you to be converted. Can't you see the hypocrisy? I don't want to be witnessed by theists or atheists. My quibble isn't metaphysics, it's being bothered by people's advertisement of those metaphysics.
TheLostVikings wrote:If you sit on your ass when your enemies are actively fighting as hard as they can, you are going to find yourself trampled underfoot in short order. (Last time I checked a western nation just made blasphemy ILLEGAL, meaning you can go to JAIL for just discussing your personal opinions as an atheist. Someone is certainly creating sides here rather forcefully...)
Well, I'm glad I don't live in Ireland, then. But that's the result of insufficient protections against governmental abuse, not of some amorphous 'religious' group, in exactly the same way the current crusade against tobacco by the moralist wing of the left is an example of the same thing but not a condemnation of the left as a whole. Everybody wants to use the power to oppress groups they don't like, not because they're evil, but because the proclivity to abuse power is part of human nature. Christians don't like atheists, left liberals don't like smokers, the KKK doesn't like blacks, and so on and so forth. Everyone has unsavory opinions, the problem isn't with the opinion but with the ability to use violence in support of that opinion.
Feil wrote: Good. So do I...

...but this statement doesn't have anything to do with the previous one. The fact that rational application of the scientific method to the question of God results in the answer "the evidence indicates that there is almost certainly no god" conflicts instantly and irrevocably with the claim that "(my) God exists and there is good reason to believe it". That doesn't make the first conclusion a religion.

Provide evidence that any criticisms of religion from the scientific camp are based on lies.

Care to support this assertion?

How?

Do you realize how fucking stupid this statement is? There is a big difference between defending the freedom to believe stupid things and actually defending stupidity.

EDIT: by "(my) God exists and there is good reason to believe it" I mean people who say things like "the Big Bang is evidence of a creator!!!", not people who effectively say "believing in God is great even though I don't have any evidence for God existing, whether it's true or not it really makes my life better, you should try it".
Boy am I developing a distaste for 'point by point' debating. It's a really easy way to lose the point of the debate and become side-tracked by various, indirectly related minutae. Instead, I prefer to strike at the heart of the problem, the driving force behind someone's arguments.

You seem to have this belief that political religious fundamentalism cannot be beaten through a political defense alone. That it is necessary to out-right attack that fundamentalism on the grounds of its metaphysics. You don't seem to have presented an argument, so instead I'll provide some support for my own.

When blacks were, politically, second class citizens, did they win equality by attacking 'whiteness'? Did they challenge the entire, all-encompassing world-view of whites? Of course not, they challenged one specific belief amongst whites in a defense of themselves: That blacks were somehow physically or mentally inferior to whites. By challenging that belief and that belief alone, they succeeded in winning enough whites over to form a political majority and, with it, their full rights of citizenship. When you go after the root of people's beliefs in an attempt to defend yourself you only create enemies. In proving, for instance, that atheists are just as capable of living productive and moral lives you win support for your cause without creating enemies.

If atheists can prove that they are much the same as Christians or other theists, then our disagreement becomes entirely metaphysical, and it's far easier to agree to disagree on metaphysics than on political rights. Where fundamentalists attempt to sneak into the school system via corruption of the curriculum, there stand professional academic associations to fight them. Where they attempt to sneak into the political system via things like 'faith-based initiatives' and similar, we ought stand as voters, shielded by the Constitutional protections we are so lucky to enjoy as Americans. Why bother with the metaphysics, especially as metaphysics is hardly the sort of thing where anyone has ever been proven correct?
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Simon_Jester »

Darth Wong wrote:How do you know this to be true?

70% of people in America bought into the idea that Saddam Hussein caused 9/11 even though no one ever came right out and said that he did. They just believed it because they got that impression. If you want to convince me that the average person can understand the philosophy of the scientific method, you'll have to do better than just saying so. Most people don't even understand the most elementary concepts of critical thought.
Since critical thinking is a learned skill and not a reflex, I don't find it surprising that most people don't do it. There are a lot of things that most people can learn that they don't learn.

I do not know enough about cars to be a competent auto mechanic. Drop me in front of a broken car and ask me to fix it, and I'll monkey around ineffectually and probably make things worse before giving up in disgust. Does this mean that I am too stupid to be a competent auto mechanic? I submit that it does not, that the main reason I don't have the right mental habits or knowledge base to make a good auto mechanic is that I never bothered to learn those habits. Neither did many other people.

I've met a lot of people that I have no reason to assume are not of average intelligence who understood these concepts quite well, or grasped them quickly when they were explained. I have hardly ever encountered people who did not understand what I was talking about in using these concepts once I made a good faith effort to explain them- and most of those people also gave me other reasons to assume that they are unusually stupid.

Of course, this is anecdotal evidence. Have you had the opposite experience? From what I'm hearing I'd think that average people you meet at random are so brick stupid that any effort to apply critical thinking in their presence is met with blank incomprehension, as if you had tried to explain calculus to a baboon.

I'm sure you've met plenty of stupid people, not least because you own and operate a website dedicated to arguing against beliefs that many stupid people hold. But when you meet people completely at random, under circumstances that give you no reason to make an a priori assumption about their intelligence, do they fail not only to know critical thinking techniques, but to comprehend them when explained? I don't, but I could just be lucky- although since I supposedly live in a stupider country than you do, I'm not sure why I'm so lucky.
_________
That's why the average person simply trusts that actual qualified surgeons and their professional associations deserve a certain amount of deference from the public. They don't trust their own judgment in such matters.
How good is the track record of surgeons' associations at convincing the general public to follow their public policy suggestions? That would seem to be the touchstone for whether the strategy of treating the surgeons' specialized knowledge as an ineffable mystery, rather than as something that can and should be explained, is a good one.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Feil »

Boy am I developing a distaste for people who ignore my arguments and take no responsibility for what they have said. Please defend your positions or admit that you were in error.
When you go after the root of people's beliefs in an attempt to defend yourself you only create enemies. In proving, for instance, that atheists are just as capable of living productive and moral lives you win support for your cause without creating enemies.
How do you propose that we prove anything about ourselves if we don't make our positions known? To borrow from Darth Wong's post above, "As a matter of fact, most Christian propagandists portray the "new atheists" as being far more aggressive than real atheists. If real atheists aggressively make their views known, they will actually appear moderate when compared to the psychotic caricatures promoted by Chick tracts and other bullshit Christian propaganda. They don't need to be fence-sitters or humour Christian beliefs. Atheists tolerate Christianity; this does not mean they need to pretend they think it's not absurd."

Why bother with the metaphysics, especially as metaphysics is hardly the sort of thing where anyone has ever been proven correct?
Because some of us might actually care about inconvenient things like the truth, self-respect, and responding to arguments made by the other side of the position. Furthermore, your whole argument is self-defeating. We're supposed to show that we aren't deluded villains, but God forbid that we rationally defend our assertions that we aren't deluded or villainous! No, we're supposed to show that there are reasonable alternatives to their beliefs by never under any circumstances asserting that their beliefs might be irrational. :roll:
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Plushie »

Feil wrote: How do you propose that we prove anything about ourselves if we don't make our positions known? To borrow from Darth Wong's post above, "As a matter of fact, most Christian propagandists portray the "new atheists" as being far more aggressive than real atheists. If real atheists aggressively make their views known, they will actually appear moderate when compared to the psychotic caricatures promoted by Chick tracts and other bullshit Christian propaganda. They don't need to be fence-sitters or humour Christian beliefs. Atheists tolerate Christianity; this does not mean they need to pretend they think it's not absurd."

Because some of us might actually care about inconvenient things like the truth, self-respect, and responding to arguments made by the other side of the position. Furthermore, your whole argument is self-defeating. We're supposed to show that we aren't deluded villains, but God forbid that we rationally defend our assertions that we aren't deluded or villainous! No, we're supposed to show that there are reasonable alternatives to their beliefs by never under any circumstances asserting that their beliefs might be irrational. :roll:
You're missing the nuance of my argument. Defense is possible without offense. The use of reason and scientific evidence can plausibly create the atmosphere you're looking for (no Christian/theistic use of government coercion to force on to you their beliefs) without pushing one step further and challenging the core beliefs of, not only the people who might dean to use the government against you, but a vast number of people who are happy to leave you alone should you leave them alone. Laissez faire is what I'm advocating, to put a label on it. Let me be as I let you be.
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

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Defense is possible without offense. The use of reason and scientific evidence can plausibly create the atmosphere you're looking for (no Christian/theistic use of government coercion to force on to you their beliefs) without pushing one step further and challenging the core beliefs of, not only the people who might dean to use the government against you, but a vast number of people who are happy to leave you alone should you leave them alone.
You've said this three times now. I want you to answer my question. How?
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Re: "New Athiests" VS "“Accommodationists”

Post by Darth Wong »

Plushie wrote:Defense is possible without offense.
But virtually ineffective. As every military strategist in history has pointed out, you can prevent your own destruction with defense alone, but you can never achieve victory. Without going after the religion, one cannot possibly achieve any real change. Many of the beliefs which keep atheists down are part and parcel of Christianity itself, and must therefore be attacked.

You're absolutely full of shit. Your whole position is that atheists who go after religion are just as bad as religionists who go after atheists. You are totally disregarding the question of logical validity and focusing solely on whether people engage in offense or defense, which is an incredibly childish way to look at it.
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