Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

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Darth Wong
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Darth Wong »

Surlethe wrote:
The greatest advances of civilization, whether in architecture or painting, in science or literature, in industry or agriculture, have never come from centralized government.
When I read this in Capitalism and Freedom, I immediately knew it was wrong: c.f., World War II, the space program, universal health care.
Historically, it's even more wrong. Almost everything of note accomplished by nations in the older historical periods was accomplished by centralized government. I can't believe he actually mentioned architecture; almost all of the major architectural wonders of the past were the result of powerful centralized governments. Even more recent achievements such as the major canals, all of the great highway systems, the Hoover Dam, etc were the result of government. I'll give skyscrapers to the free market as an architectural achievement, but that's pretty narrow.

I honestly don't know how someone could write that quote with a straight face.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Samuel »

Nobel Prize for Friedman:
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/econ ... ates/1976/
"for his achievements in the fields of consumption analysis, monetary history and theory and for his demonstration of the complexity of stabilization policy"
And Friedman said as much. See, e.g., Capitalism and Freedom. I'm afraid I don't have the book handy to give an exact quote, but anyone who thinks that Friedman held the same views as, say, Rand is sadly ignorant.
I have Bright Promises, Dismal Performance: An Economist's Protest on hand (it was behind the tourist's guide to the Soviet Union).
page 57 wrote:Playboy: Aren't you an anarchist?
Friedman: No. Although I wish anarchists luck. since that is the way we ought to be moving now. But I believe we need government to enforce the rules of the game. By prosecuting antitrust violations, for instance. We need a government to maintain a system of courts that will uphold contracts and rule on compensation for damages. We need a government to ensure the safety of its citizens- to provide police protection. But government is failing at a lot of these things that it should be doing because it's involved in so many things it houldn't be doing.
Do you honestly disagree with this? That's actually a pretty succinct expression of the prevailing progressive view: people's options need to be constrained so that they (a) don't hurt each other and (b) don't hurt themselves. What do you think regulations are, suggestions?
How can a man be free when his opportunities are decided by his birth? He is free in the sense he is not oppressed- he is not free in the sense that he does not have the same options other people do. I also think that things that prevent people dying also count- the dead tend to only have the option to rot.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Surlethe »

Samuel wrote:How can a man be free when his opportunities are decided by his birth? He is free in the sense he is not oppressed- he is not free in the sense that he does not have the same options other people do. I also think that things that prevent people dying also count- the dead tend to only have the option to rot.
That's also a good counterargument. You can formalize it by literally defining freedom as the range of options open to people; then a person's economic freedom is measured, quite literally, by his budget constraint. A society in which the vast majority of people are poor and a very few are rich will have much less freedom on average than a society with a very large middle class and less total wealth. Under this schema, you can also identify the marginal utility of freedom (e.g., the difference between being able to choose between buying a Cadillac and a Rolls Royce and being able to choose between driving your parents' car and buying a junker) with the marginal utility of income - this provides a quite handy justification for redistributionism, actually.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Big Orange »

Surlethe wrote:
Big Orange wrote:Milton Friedman got a Nobel Prize for spewing out an endless tirade of strawmen, fallacies, and non squinters?!
You're an idiot. Friedman got a Nobel Prize for being a top-notch economist: like the prizes in other fields and the Fields medal, the Nobel (memorial) Prize in Economics is awarded purely for academic research. Your non-sequitur is about as apt as saying Nash received it for being schizophrenic.
I'm sorry, but the Nobel Economic Prize from the start has less credibility than the Oscars, at least according to a excerpt from this book:
Bertrand Roehner is a Professor of Theoretical Physics at the Institute for Theoretical and High Energy
Physics at the University of Paris (Sorbonne). Dr. Roehner's main interest is interdisciplinary, particularly in
the application of physics to social phenomena. He has written several books and many articles challenging
the accepted theories concerning various social and economic events and substituting simple physical criteria.
In his 2007 book, Driving Forces in Physical, Biological and Socio−economic Phenomena: A Network
Science Investigation of Social Bonds and Interactions (Cambridge University Press), Professor Roehner
interrupts a discussion of Macro−interactions as they apply to marketing and cell phones in cars, to discuss
the Promotion of Neo−Liberalism, particularly with regard to the Nobel Prize in Economics.

Why is this a valid subject in a text that is otherwise about networks, connection schemes, and social
bonds? The simple answer is that the Nobel story is an unbelievable tale. The neo−liberaleconomists
were nothing more than a despised sect on the edges of Economic Science, unread, undistinguished, and
unknown, until a series of Nobel Prizes transformed them into the rock stars of their field, more important by
far than all competing schoolsput together. Unfortunately, Roehner detects what others have also noticed −
that the story is quite literally unbelievable. The numbers alone tell the story: 58 total laureatesfor the
Nobel Prize in Economics, of whom two thirds are from the United States (three quarters if school of
affiliation is used instead of citizenship); 8 from the Mont Pelerin society; 5 presidents of that society; 12
politically prominent neo−libs; 16 affiliated in some way with the University of Chicago & not if the
subject were cancer and the address, Love Canal, could such clustering be explained.

With meticulous attention to detail, Dr. Roehner dissects the story. He gives particular attention to the role of
the National Association of Manufacturers (NAM). Roehner features the Volker Fund and reproduces some of
the same material that we have in our accompanying article, but Roehner traces it all back even further to
the IUHEI (Institut Universitaire des Hautes Etudes Internationales) conferences organized by Rockefeller,
starting in 1927. The key role is reserved for the Mont Pelerin Society. Roehner demonstrates a pattern
whereby 5 former presidents of the Society became Nobel Prize winners shortly after ending their terms as
president.

As to how this was accomplished, Roehner traces the composition of the Nobel Committee which consisted of
5 Swedish economists. Particularly important was Erik Lundberg, the President of the Swedish Bank, who
was also a fanatical neo−lib and a leading member of the Mont Pelerin Society, and who simultaneously
served on the Nobel Committee for over a decade and was its Chairman for half that time. It was under his
term that the libertarian flood began. Lundberg was succeeded as Chairman by Assar Linbeck who had not
only been part of the Society but had collaborated with Milton Friedman. Linbeck had written a hysterical book, Turning Sweden Around, which called for slashing Sweden's social programs and the drastic privatization of state enterprises. Linbeck's co−author for that book was Torsten Persson, yet another member of the Committee destined to become its Chairman. Roehner's story details nearly endless corruption of this
sort.

The resulting critique is devastating even though it is hidden deep within the bowels of a scholarly tome about
other subjects. Professor Roehner might not voice it in the following terms, but the conclusion is inescapable:
that a bunch of mediocre balding old white men hijacked the Nobel committee for Economics and proceeded
to shamelessly give each other the Nobel Prize on ideological grounds alone (i.e., to save capitalism). Yet, despite all this, Roehner's analysis is somewhat unsatisfying. Roehner does not dwell on or perhaps is only dimly aware of the central fact which trumps all others in this story: there is no such thing as the Nobel Prize in Economics!

There never has been one. Economics was not one of the five prizes bequeathed by Alfred Nobel (Physics,
Chemistry, Literature, Peace, and Medicine), there is no mention of economicsanywhere in Alfred
Nobel's will nor in the enabling documents for the Prize when it was established in 1896, and not a nickel of
Nobel's money has ever been awarded for such a prize. So where did it come from?

In 1968, the Swedish Bank established the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of
Alfred Nobel, put up the money for the award, and talked the King of Sweden into giving away their
prizeat the same time as the Nobels. The President of the Bank, the very same Erik Lundberg discussed
above, promised a selection process and committee kinda, sorta, just like that of the realprizes,
immediately stacked the committee, and they were off to the races. In 1971, the first prize was awarded to a neo−liberal, F.A. Hayek, and the new prizebecame bathed in controversy.

The prizewas awarded jointly to Gunnar Myrdal, Sweden's most famous economist, and to Hayek. The ungrateful Myrdal immediately turned around and announced publicly that Hayek didn't deserve the prize. Oddly, Hayek agreed. Nevertheless, none of this prevented the world press from trumpeting, Universities from gushing, and Foundations from funding, the flood of new laureates, blissfully, or perhaps intentionally, unaware of the underlying fraud.

The comedy went on unhindered until Peter Nobel, the great−grandnephew of Alfred Nobel, went public with
a blistering criticism of the memorial Prize in the 1990s. The Swedish Riksbank, like a cuckoo, has
placed its egg in another very decent bird's nest. What the Bank did was akin to trademark infringement,
unacceptably robbing the real Nobel Prizes. Nobel said, 'Two thirds of these prizes in economics have gone
to US economists, particularly of the Chicago School & these have nothing to do with Alfred Nobel's goal of
improving the human condition and our survival! Indeed they are the exact opposite...'

Faced with an unwanted controversy, the Swedish Bank promised significant reformsin its selection
criteria and in the committee for the prize. The neo−liberal flood had already ended in any case. The
final irony was played out in 2001 when the reformed economics committee awarded the prize to American
Economist and Columbia Professor, Joseph Stiglitz. Stiglitz's contribution is essentially a complete refutation of the one scientific claim made by neo−liberal or Austrianeconomics: that unregulated free−markets provide the highest possible economic efficiency.

Nope. Not true. Perhaps even worse, Stiglitz mathematically and formally demonstrated the potential
efficiency−enhancing properties of the state based on the Greenwald−Stiglitz theorems (by establishing the −
constrained − Pareto inefficiency of market economies with imperfect information and incomplete markets).
In other words, big governmentisn't the problemfrom even the most elementary of economic standpoint.
It is capital and markets which contribute the fundamental inefficiencies.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Samuel »

Dr. Roehner's main interest is interdisciplinary, particularly in
the application of physics to social phenomena.
:wtf:
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Big Orange »

^I'm not so sure about that either, but the Nobel Economic Prize being a scam does seem to have some credence. And even awarding of the other Nobel Prize baubles has been tainted by big business:
December 19, 2008
AstraZeneca row as corruption claims engulf Nobel prize
David Charter

The integrity of the Nobel prize was called into question last night after it emerged that a member of the jury also sat on the board of a pharmaceuticals giant that benefited from the award of this year’s prize for medicine.

Prosecutors were studying whether AstraZeneca, the London-based multi-national pharmaceutical company, could have exerted undue influence on the award.

The joint winner of this year’s Nobel Prize for Medicine, Harald zur Hausen, was recognised for his work on the human papilloma virus (HPV), which can lead to cervical cancer. AstraZeneca has a stake in two lucrative vaccines against the virus.

Two senior figures in the process that chose Mr zur Hausen have strong links with the pharmaceutical company, which has also recently begun sponsoring the Nobel website and pro-motional subsidiary. The company strongly denies any wrongdoing.

It is not the only question mark hanging over the probity of the Stockholm-based foundation. The Swedish prosecutor yesterday opened a parallel investigation into bribery allegations after several members of Nobel committees admitted enjoying expenses-paid trips to China to tell officials how candidates are selected for prizes.

Other members of the Nobel Foundation are said to be gravely concerned that the reputation of an organisation that honours the highest achievements in human endeavour is under threat from companies and nations hungry for Nobel glory.

Questions began to be asked about AstraZeneca’s role after it agreed to sponsor Nobel Media and Nobel Web. Neither the company nor the foundation will say how much the contracts are worth, although they are estimated to run into hundreds of thousands of dollars over the next three years.

Further concerns were raised by Swedish radio, which revealed that Bertil Fredholm, the chairman of the five-strong committee that assesses Nobel candidates, was a paid consultant for AstraZeneca in 2006. Bo Angelin, a member of the 50-strong committee that votes for the winner, also sits on the board.

Last year, AstraZeneca acquired a company that developed a key component licensed for the production of two HPV vaccines made by other companies.

Christer van der Kwast, the director of the Swedish police anticorruption unit, ordered a preliminary investigation. His actions have been dismissed by Michael Sohlman, executive director of the Nobel Foundation, who told Scientific American magazine: “How should I put this? He often appears in the media.”

Mr van der Kwast told The Times last night: “My initiative was to look into this to see if there were grounds for investigation. I have ordered the prosecutor-in-charge to look into this.”

A spokesman for AstraZeneca rejected any suggestion that its influence over the Nobel Foundation was improper. He said: “We have no influence over the prizewinners nor would we ever seek to.AstraZeneca as a company is not involved in the process of Nobel prize selection. Bo Angelin’s involvement on the Nobel committee is completely independent of his role on AstraZeneca’s board. Bertil Fredholm is a well-respected expert. He did some work for us in 2006, as we work with many people who are experts in their field. The relationship was . . . no more than that.”

Scholarship and peace

— Nobel prizes have been awarded every year since 1901. The prizes, as designated in the will of Alfred Nobel, are in physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, literature and peace

— Each prize consists of a medal, personal diploma and cash award – 150,782 kronor in 1901, 10 million kronor (£860,000) this year

— In 1968 the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences was established in memory of Alfred Nobel

— The only Nobel prize that is not awarded in the Swedish capital is the peace prize, awarded in Oslo; this too was stipulated in Nobel’s will

— The youngest Nobel laureate to date was Sir Lawrence Bragg, who was 25 when he received the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1915, sharing it with his father

— Two laureates are known to have declined: Jean-Paul Sartre, below, awarded the literature prize in 1964; and Le Duc Tho, awarded the 1973 peace prize jointly with Henry Kissinger for the Vietnam peace accord
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'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...' - Dr. Evil

'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid

'I think it's gone a little bit wrong.' - The Doctor
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

What I get from the article is that the economic prize is essentially a giant circlejerk, where members of a particular ideology pat each other on the back with prizes based on how well they promulgate the faith. I wouldn't be surprised, given the state of economics today.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Patrick Degan »

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:What I get from the article is that the economic prize is essentially a giant circlejerk, where members of a particular ideology pat each other on the back with prizes based on how well they promulgate the faith. I wouldn't be surprised, given the state of economics today.
It's a circle-jerk designed with a tangible purpose: to lend the patina of increased credibility to neoliberal economic theory and its proponents: it's a lot easier to sell these ideas to credulous governments and their citizenry when they come from Nobel prize-winning economists instead of just ordinary, everyday economists. It's also a handy way of battering down critics by providing a handy mechanism to appeal to one's own authority without actually having to come right out and do so.

Essentially, an engine for manufacturing credentials out of nothing.
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Re: Solution to US health care problem: medical credit cards!

Post by Big Orange »

Neo-Liberalism put into effect has eroded the security of jobs, decreased the number and quality of jobs, and dispensed with manufacturing. It has induced the banking and property companies into being blindingly voracious, unsustainable, and (ultimately) self-destructive. It has turned intellectual property protection from a tool useful in small doses into a corporate version of the Inquisition that needlessly criminalized millions of consumers, seized up a lot of vital innovation, and rendered vast swaths of useful material unusable (from old music up to cancer treatment). So no wonder its shrill proponents in big business (deluded megalomaniacs with tunnel vision) had to cheat, manipulate, and deceive people (or institutions) on a grand scale into accepting their crap on face value.

If America carries on being a paranoiac anti-socialist, by making its deep debts deeper by using credit cards to prop up its strained health care, it will perhaps be reduced to a comparatively impoverished third rate power like Brazil or Argentina within half a century.
'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...' - Dr. Evil

'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid

'I think it's gone a little bit wrong.' - The Doctor
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