SD.net: Lords of Darkness (RAR!) Mk-II

[Styphon]

I finally found a pen so I could work the numbers out on paper, so I've now worked out a proper force list.

2000 orcs (2 cohorts sword, 1 pike, 1 crossbow)
150 nagas
110 satyrs
50 ursiods
50 minotaurs

At any given time, roughly half of my orcs will make up the majority of my labor force, with skilled trades-orcs kept off the front-lines the majority of the time. Minotaurs will rotate between my honor guard of 10 and the other 40 doing heavy lifting for the orcs. Nagas are mostly just here to bring in fish, though we'll have at least monthly, possibly biweekly, training exercises to keep them on their toestails. Ursiods are mostly here as pure beatstick in case anything goes wrong and cause they're cool, though I suppose they could be used in the mining as well. Satyrs are pure scholars, to help me raise our technology level as quickly as possible and work out better plans when everything I've just said somehow turns into a clusterfuck.

Location is still somewhere in Australia, though I'm not sure exactly where yet. Need to find somewhere with a nice balance between plentiful-iron-deposits and not-a-desert.

As far as the general goal of all this... hundreds of years of build-up (breeding, mining, expanding across the continent, and trying to work up some anachronistic technology where we can) waiting for the Europeans to arrive. The locals will either be ignored (if they leave us alone), wiped out (if they try to attack us), or welcomed into my little empire (should they be receptive to such ideas).

Oh, and livestock numbers (no particular reasoning behind this, just wanted variety):
500 cattle
625 pigs
625 goats
750 chickens

[Styphon]

Sorry for the double-post, missed the editing deadline.

It occurs to me that a starting population of 50 could lead to dangerous amounts of inbreeding in my minotaurs and ursiods. If somebody else can verify that this is the case, then I'll just say "fuck it" to this whole Australia plan and throw in with the NAU so I can work out some kind of minion exchange program for genetic diversity. I believe I saw a spot in Washington with nice deposits of iron and coal (on the maps on page 2) that will serve my purposes if I end up going with this plan.

[Serafina]

Well, it WILL lead to inbreeding. Whether or not this inbreeding is harmfull depends on how it is done.

I have the same problem with my army, so i plan to monitor the "rare" species - preventing close relatices from engagements, monitoring lineages and so on.

[Styphon]

Well, it WILL lead to inbreeding. Whether or not this inbreeding is harmfull depends on how it is done.

I have the same problem with my army, so i plan to monitor the "rare" species - preventing close relatices from engagements, monitoring lineages and so on.

You know, I would just throw in with you in Siberia (your plan generally seems like a more specific, laid-out version of mine anyway), which would save me dumping points on Nagas to boot, but the OP saying we get "jackets" if we're in cold climates doesn't really put me at ease as far as freezing to death goes.

[Master_Baerne]

MariusRoi: What say you to some collaboration? I'm sure we could get more out of the coal and iron mines if we pooled resources, and if you've any minotaurs I'd really like to avoid inbreeding as much as possible.

KroLazuxy_87: As you're on the Missouri, I think cordial relations might be a good thing for both of us to maintain. Perhas we could look into possible collaboration?

[Crossroads Inc.]

Well, it WILL lead to inbreeding. Whether or not this inbreeding is harmfull depends on how it is done.

I have the same problem with my army, so i plan to monitor the "rare" species - preventing close relatices from engagements, monitoring lineages and so on.

You know, I would just throw in with you in Siberia (your plan generally seems like a more specific, laid-out version of mine anyway), which would save me dumping points on Nagas to boot, but the OP saying we get "jackets" if we're in cold climates doesn't really put me at ease as far as freezing to death goes.

On the note of Materials, I've begun to realize if we want to take this RAR seriously enough to approach STGOD status, I'll have to flesh out quite a bit more on what materials people have. As such I am going to give the following addendum to your starting parts by adding a list of Materials (that can be changed and edited depending on what others think should be included.)

Additional Starting Resource Information (numbers and %'s subject to change)
All players will receive:
5% worth of starting points of:
Lumber Axes (modern make)
2H- Lumber Saws
2H- Sledge Hammer
Shovels
Pickaxes
Plows
10-meter measuring spool

These materials are in addition to what comes in your fortress, as they are meant to aid in constructing a City proper as well as well farms, forts and other structures. Additional these supplies shall appear in large wooden barns just outside your fortress. The more matierals you have the more barns will be alloted, each barn being about 1005t long by 35ft high,





Also, while this is a Fantasy thread in the strictest sense, perhaps it should be moved to Off-Topic or such so people can freely edit posts?

[Master_Baerne]

I second the request for post-editing, though OT is a bit crowded if you ask me.

Also, more on my SECRET PLANS: Cahokia is just across the river from me, in real life and in the game. Therefore, I'll grab some books on their culture during my packing period, then establish myself as the Cahokian supplier of manufactured goods - If I can convince the chief/king/high priest/whatever to lend me some workers, and that won't be hard because Cahokia is dangerously overpopulated at this point in time anyway, I ought to have a good start on mining and farming.

[Serafina]

You know, I would just throw in with you in Siberia (your plan generally seems like a more specific, laid-out version of mine anyway), which would save me dumping points on Nagas to boot, but the OP saying we get "jackets" if we're in cold climates doesn't really put me at ease as far as freezing to death goes.

Ah, thats why i am planning on starting around Novosibirsk (which does not exist, yet). It has a moderate climate - temperatures are between -15°C and +20°C. Sure, its not Paradise, but we will not freeze to death.

And i would welcome you with open arms - my main problem will be getting a substantial population. While feeding a lot of people should not be that much of a problem, population growth is - we will have to work harder for our food than in other regions.

If anyone has any ideas about agriculture or good regions for it in Siberia, any input is welcome.

[Starglider]

I'm not being critical here Crossroads, I'm just saying that if you want certain things (such as detailed, interesting OOBs), then you're more likely to get them with different starting conditions. If you don't want those things, that's fine too. If you set all the conditions the same for everyone except for their location and exactly how many of the five or six possible units they have, you're going to see pretty similar posts. If you make it more flexible, i.e. people can chose a few advantages from a list or buy them with points, then you will see more variety as people take different strategies. If the scenario was set up to encourage conquest from the get go, you'd at least see variety in military strategy, but it isn't, and there isn't really that much you can add to 'I sit in one place for a century or two building up my population and lording it over the locals'.

Very well, I have decided and hereby Decree the existence of Cygnutaurs they shall be 100-points a piece as flying is a decided advantage and should be expensive. They shall currently follow Stargliders form size and weight in terms of appearance. They shall lay a clutch of two eggs every 7months, and need lots of high caloric foods, meats and sugars for the most part.

Do you want to see my sketches? Swans eat pondweed of course, but upgrading that to fish and fruits would definitely help with power-to-weight by reducing the digestive system mass.

Well I guess I am then, defiantly trying to better organize things. Since people are largely avoiding Europe we can say for now things proceed as normal there. And if the time comes I can take over RP of Human nations, and there are a few I know who can help out there

If you're going to go all STGOD I'd suggest stepping forward in increments of 20 or 50 years, letting everyone get population growth (you'll need a growth rate per species), and seeing when the first person feels confident enough to start conquering and oppressing. Or failing that, when the Pope declares his first crusade against the false gods.

I think that if you adopted a custom army/species creation scheme similiar to what the first edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battle and WH40K : Rogue Trader had, or even a very condensed version of the way GURPS does fantasy creature points costs, you would see much more interesting army designs.

I may defer to you on this matter, but I would be willing to be we shant see direct combat for quite some time.

Well, would you like me to post a version of the GURPS fantasy species creation rules (perhaps with the WHFB rules for weapons and equipment) condensed into 100 lines or so? They're the best balanced, most flexible ones I'm aware of, and almost certainly better than anything any of us could come up with in a few hours. Of course if you did adopt them quite a few people would probably want to redesign their starting armies.

I THINK StarGlider set up shop in NZ, but I couldn't find him directly saying so.

That was before I realised that I'd have so few creatures (due to my unhealthy waterfowl obsession), so I relocated to the Azores.

[Styphon]

Ah, thats why i am planning on starting around Novosibirsk (which does not exist, yet). It has a moderate climate - temperatures are between -15°C and +20°C. Sure, its not Paradise, but we will not freeze to death.

And i would welcome you with open arms - my main problem will be getting a substantial population. While feeding a lot of people should not be that much of a problem, population growth is - we will have to work harder for our food than in other regions.

If anyone has any ideas about agriculture or good regions for it in Siberia, any input is welcome.

Alright, I see three possibilities here: 1, I bring my established force (depending on if the climate will simply kill the naga); 2, I dump the naga's points into more minotaurs and satyrs; 3, we assume you've got orcs covered and I blow all my points on ursoids, minotaurs and satyrs to give them a larger breeding population.

Preliminary googling says our best agricultural bets are the Baraba Steppe or the vicinity of Lake Baikal (though I'd be kind of worried about some huge uber-beast coming out of that and absolutely murdering us... deepest lake in the world in a fantasy setting? just asking for trouble).

[Serafina]

About growth rates:

For species that reproduce as fast as humans, you can assume them to double their population every 50 years (two generations) if sufficient food, living space and health care are avaiable.
Under very good circumstances and with "breeding programms" you could reach a maximum of increasing the population by a factor of 4 every 25 years (thats an upper limit, more or less).
You can adjust that for other reproductive rates easily - just calculate how long a generation is.

The real problem is food - you can not have more people than you can feed. Given that most of us start out in mostly uninhabitated, fertile areas and have some access to modern agriculture, we can reach insane population growth rates.

But the larger your population, the harder it is to increase your food output. Its harder to get 100% of 50X than of 100.000X - so your population rates will have to shrink, or you have to deploy more workers to food production.

Thats one of the main reasons i want to go with a orc-militia - i can deploy more of my population for growing food, increasing my growth rates.

If we want to deploy an STGOD, that should be very important - how much workforce do you spend on what?
Having a standing army is expensive - a lot of people you need to feed, but which do not produce anything.

[Serafina]

Alright, I see three possibilities here: 1, I bring my established force (depending on if the climate will simply kill the naga); 2, I dump the naga's points into more minotaurs and satyrs; 3, we assume you've got orcs covered and I blow all my points on ursoids, minotaurs and satyrs to give them a larger breeding population.

Preliminary googling says our best agricultural bets are the Baraba Steppe or the vicinity of Lake Baikal (though I'd be kind of worried about some huge uber-beast coming out of that and absolutely murdering us... deepest lake in the world in a fantasy setting? just asking for trouble).

Nah, its not a fantasy-setting - its plain old earth. We have the only fantasy creatures, and they are not magic.

I would really appreciate are lots and lots of centaurs - i could not fit them into my army at reasonable numbers, but they are going to be really usefull.
After all, there are lots and lots of room - and having centaurs will allow way better travel and warfare.
Initially, they are good as scouts and raiding forces. In actual combat, they are exellent horse-archers (literary).
Later on, we can use them to deploy dragoon-style tactics - they can transport infantry, and the infantry will fight unmounted. They would be better than horse-based dragoons - after all, they can fight on their own.

Perhaps you are willing to deploy the following force:
300 Centaurs (6000 points)
600 Orks (1200 pojnts)
100 Nagas (300 points)

The Orks are your main infantry force. The centaurs will carry quite some equipment, greatly reinforcing your logistics.
I will happily loan you some Ursiods - they can easily keep pace with your force and will deliver a hell of combat power.
With this, you can copy the Golden Horde - a fast, mostly mounted, raiding combat force.

We would cooperate as follows: You go out and scout for enemies. If you can beat them on your own, you do so.
My own, way slower army will follow up and set up some permanent settlements (using the captured humans as workforce). If you need assistance, i will help you with my own forces.
Part of the beauty of this idea is that we can communicate instantly - we have our laptops to do so.
Thus, you can report places for settlements, resource locations and help requests instantly.

I will do the labour and research part of the job, while you conquer territory, resources and workforce for us.
You can return to our base (which will be managed by me) for resupply, getting newly developed weapons and so on.

Oh, and you gave me a wonderfull idea - we will deploy around the Baikal sea.
It has a nicer climate than Novosibirsk, and we can fish - making foodproduction easier.
You can give me your Nagas, which can be used as fishermen. If they can not survive in the climate (some input on this would be nice), you can replace them with Goblins, which can join your force as carriers and labourers.

If you want to, we can also trade places - its up to you.


Oh, and a nice idea for some additional options: Is it possible to trade/upgrade/downgrade your fortress for equipment/points/whatever?

[Dave]

Okay, I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring (especially since my hall-mate, Kro, is interested.)

50-1000 regular posters and or people with a VI or other such negative custom title
7,500 Army Points
A small fortress with 4 meter tall Wood and rammed earth Walls that are a meter thick, pointy stick stockades, barbed wire and watchtowers for archers with your manor inside. Inside is a Forge, Armory, Barracks, Grainy, hospital and your manor (which you can base off any Eurasian Noble's manor) that is no more than 30 meters by 30 meters).
1500 Cattle

I will be placing my fortress several hundred meters south-south-west of the junction of the current day Ohio/Pennsylvania/West Virgina state lines, directly west what is currently a beautiful blue lake man-made fly-ash disposal site called "Little Blue(location linked is approximate)". This gives me access to timber, arable land, and the Ohio River. According to the mineral maps posted earlier, this also puts me on top of coal, iron and petroleum deposits. By building a dam in the obvious location, I also can develop hydro power.

I will be focusing on mining and trading with those downstream. (MariusRoi, and anyone else with Mississippi river access (or otherwise able to provide transportation), I'm willing to trade coal, iron and petroleum just as soon as I have it up and running.) I have no major military goals in mind at this time other than securing the immediate vicinity.

My one cubic meter of space will be devoted to non-fiction books covering just about everything, from agriculture to metallurgy, weapons-crafting to tactics, leadership and diplomacy to shipbuilding and river navigation.
I understand bamboo is quite versatile, so I might bring some seeds/shoots of bamboo along, if they are not provided.

Army:
1 000 Goblins - generally for labor and mining
1 100 Orcs - all purpose
300 Naga - for securing waterways
60 Ursoids - generally for jobs requiring more strength, power
320 Satyrs - mostly for engineering, some clerical/bookkeeping

Farm Animals:
500 Cattle
750 Pigs
750 Chickens
500 Goats

My first projects will be the creation of a riverboat flotilla, the development of agriculture for long term sustainability, the start of mining activities, the development of paper making and the movable-type printing press, and the creation of a dam in the obvious location to create a natural reservoir.

As far as trading goes, again, I'll be open for business just as soon as I have transportation and product available. Also, I'm sure we'd all like to avoid inbreeding, so I'd like to propose a "cultural exchange program" for those of us in the Mississippi Watershed. (Someone else can come up with the awesome name, I'm not up for that right now.)

I will also note that Google Earth has a handy flight simulator option which I found quite useful in discovering the "lay of the land." I recommend using it if you want to understand how the terrain looks from different angle.

[Styphon]

I would really appreciate are lots and lots of centaurs - i could not fit them into my army at reasonable numbers, but they are going to be really usefull.
After all, there are lots and lots of room - and having centaurs will allow way better travel and warfare.
Initially, they are good as scouts and raiding forces. In actual combat, they are exellent horse-archers (literary).
Later on, we can use them to deploy dragoon-style tactics - they can transport infantry, and the infantry will fight unmounted. They would be better than horse-based dragoons - after all, they can fight on their own.

Perhaps you are willing to deploy the following force:
300 Centaurs (6000 points)
600 Orks (1200 pojnts)
100 Nagas (300 points)

The Orks are your main infantry force. The centaurs will carry quite some equipment, greatly reinforcing your logistics.
I will happily loan you some Ursiods - they can easily keep pace with your force and will deliver a hell of combat power.
With this, you can copy the Golden Horde - a fast, mostly mounted, raiding combat force.

Three things...
A: the whole point of my dropping the Australia plan and moving to Siberia was to increase the populations of our non-orc troops. If I don't take any Satyrs or Ursoids, yours still face the same genetic bottleneck they were up against to begin with.
B: just a personal taste thing, but centaurs really don't do anything for me compared to the other options, though that's not insurmountable.
C: I was really hoping to take some minotaurs on the off chance the females look anything like this.

Oh, and you gave me a wonderfull idea - we will deploy around the Baikal sea.
It has a nicer climate than Novosibirsk, and we can fish - making foodproduction easier.
You can give me your Nagas, which can be used as fishermen. If they can not survive in the climate (some input on this would be nice), you can replace them with Goblins, which can join your force as carriers and labourers.

I fully endorse the Baikal portion of the plan, but we should probably petition Q to make sure our laptops float, just in case.

If you want to, we can also trade places - its up to you.

Not sure what you mean here. Are you saying I'd be the guy at the base and you'd be out conquering, or that you'd come to Australia and we'd scrap Siberia, or... third meaning I haven't thought of?

Oh, and a nice idea for some additional options: Is it possible to trade/upgrade/downgrade your fortress for equipment/points/whatever?

In a similar vein, I wonder if those of us who like cavalry tactics but dislike centaurs could trade cows for plain old horses.

[Solauren]

FINALLY
I've got an updated Map up of North America. Samuel and Solaruren I'd like to request more specific locations, just goto Google Earth and find a city near where you wish to be located. Mr. Bean and a few others I need locations as well, I THINK StarGlider set up shop in NZ, but I couldn't find him directly saying so.

Move my location over to the left of the map (West) to the river, then move it north to the source of the river.

If need be, I'll edit the map to indicate it.

[Zor]

You also left out my presence in New Zealand.

Zor

[Mr Bean]

My location BTW will be the present day site of Memphis Tennessee on the Mississippi river. With close access to the river I'll use some of my brute labor to divert the river and create myself a natural moat around the city(Long term) and between my Naga and then then large old wood forests around there I'll be up in river boats within a few months easy enough. Even if they are a bit crude to begin setting up river forts to dominate the river. Thanks to a handy civil war guide of where the best place for said Forts will be.

[KroLazuxy_87]

MariusRoi: What say you to some collaboration? I'm sure we could get more out of the coal and iron mines if we pooled resources, and if you've any minotaurs I'd really like to avoid inbreeding as much as possible.

KroLazuxy_87: As you're on the Missouri, I think cordial relations might be a good thing for both of us to maintain. Perhas we could look into possible collaboration?

Of course. I'm planning on being a producer of large quantities of high quality hard wood. Setting up mills and wood working shops, I'll hopefully be a primary producer of timber, boards, and tools as well as fast, low in the water ships and barges.


I'm planning on eventually moving west and tapping into the resources of the Pacific North West.

I'm not certain about my cubic meter of stuff yet, but I'm leaning toward radios... they'd be great for short range communication and by setting up outposts, messages could be sent over long distances.

[TimothyC]

This gives me access to timber, arable land, and the Ohio River. According to the mineral maps posted earlier, this also puts me on top of coal, iron and petroleum deposits. By building a dam in the obvious location, I also can develop hydro power.

Good Luck daming the Ohio, even that far up-stream.

I will be focusing on mining and trading with those downstream. (MariusRoi, and anyone else with Mississippi river access (or otherwise able to provide transportation), I'm willing to trade coal, iron and petroleum just as soon as I have it up and running.) I have no major military goals in mind at this time other than securing the immediate vicinity.

No problem with trading.

MariusRoi: What say you to some collaboration? I'm sure we could get more out of the coal and iron mines if we pooled resources, and if you've any minotaurs I'd really like to avoid inbreeding as much as possible.

Trade is good, but I have no Minotaurs.

The Reason I picked On the Ohio between the Miami rivers is that It lets me control the trade along the Ohio, both up and down stream. IE Iron and Coal would have a hard time getting past me.

[Master_Baerne]

MariusRoi: What say you to some collaboration? I'm sure we could get more out of the coal and iron mines if we pooled resources, and if you've any minotaurs I'd really like to avoid inbreeding as much as possible.

KroLazuxy_87: As you're on the Missouri, I think cordial relations might be a good thing for both of us to maintain. Perhas we could look into possible collaboration?

Of course. I'm planning on being a producer of large quantities of high quality hard wood. Setting up mills and wood working shops, I'll hopefully be a primary producer of timber, boards, and tools as well as fast, low in the water ships and barges.

It seems as though it might be beneficial to focus on one aspect of the production chain, specifically the lumber harvesting. If you send quality trees down the river, my much larger orc population will be better able to turn them into finished products, to the profit of all.

MariusRoi: What say you to some collaboration? I'm sure we could get more out of the coal and iron mines if we pooled resources, and if you've any minotaurs I'd really like to avoid inbreeding as much as possible.

Trade is good, but I have no Minotaurs.

The Reason I picked On the Ohio between the Miami rivers is that It lets me control the trade along the Ohio, both up and down stream. IE Iron and Coal would have a hard time getting past me.

Doubtless true - but you'll also have a hard time extracting all of that ore, unless your population is radically different than mine. So, jointly-run mines? I'm sure the ease of operation will more than make up for splitting the profits, as well as deter potential raids.

[Mr Bean]

The Reason I picked On the Ohio between the Miami rivers is that It lets me control the trade along the Ohio, both up and down stream. IE Iron and Coal would have a hard time getting past me.

Except I'm along the same set of rivers but a few weeks down via boat, and have access to ten times the forces you do. Or five times the forces you and Baerne have together.

Except of course I have no interest in causing harm or declaring war on you or any such, the only issue is you have to put in context who your going to "control trade" from? At this point there is river traffic I'd assume between tribes along the rivers of America but there's not ten tons of pig iron being loaded on barges to be sent from Cincinnati to the Great Lakes or down to New Orleans. I can't see more than a half a ton of cargo at best being moved at this point. Just not large enough populations to sustain such trade levels or require it.

Or to put it another way, it's like declaring yourself the King of Greenland! Yes that's nice King, but who cares? There's no one there to contest your rule, nor is there anyone there to control the trade unless you go down there, start building boats and conducting trade.

[TimothyC]

Doubtless true - but you'll also have a hard time extracting all of that ore, unless your population is radically different than mine. So, jointly-run mines? I'm sure the ease of operation will more than make up for splitting the profits, as well as deter potential raids.

True - I'd like to set myself up as the shipping guy. One of the things I'll be taking with me is a Map of the Miami and Erie Canal.

Except of course I have no interest in causing harm or declaring war on you or any such, the only issue is you have to put in context who your going to "control trade" from? At this point there is river traffic I'd assume between tribes along the rivers of America but there's not ten tons of pig iron being loaded on barges to be sent from Cincinnati to the Great Lakes or down to New Orleans. I can't see more than a half a ton of cargo at best being moved at this point. Just not large enough populations to sustain such trade levels or require it.

My goal, is to be The go-to guy for trade along the Ohio, and eventually the guy that connects The Mississippi system with the Great Lakes.

[Master_Baerne]

While there may not be much trade now, I guarantee there will be lots as soon as we provide goods to be traded. Cahokia was one of the largest cities in the world at this point, several times larger than London - With goods more interesting than corn and obsidian to be traded, I guarantee that they will be.

This, however, is beside the point. We, the SDNers, provide a trade network merely by existing - not everyone's territory provides all the things we'll want. I, for example, have little iron near by, while MariusRoi is practically rolling in it. On the other hand, large-scale mining will make his domains less suited for farming. Iron-for-grain trade ready made!

[KroLazuxy_87]

KroLazuxy_87: As you're on the Missouri, I think cordial relations might be a good thing for both of us to maintain. Perhaps we could look into possible collaboration?

Of course. I'm planning on being a producer of large quantities of high quality hard wood. Setting up mills and wood working shops, I'll hopefully be a primary producer of timber, boards, and tools as well as fast, low in the water ships and barges.

It seems as though it might be beneficial to focus on one aspect of the production chain, specifically the lumber harvesting. If you send quality trees down the river, my much larger orc population will be better able to turn them into finished products, to the profit of all.

Point taken. I'll focus on the production and processing of timber. I'll be producing my own boats of course, however not as a commodity to be traded.

[Dave]

Good Luck daming the Ohio, even that far up-stream.

I apologize for not making myself more clear. If you look at the link I provided, you would see that it would be possible to create a man-made reservoir on the hill overlooking the Ohio. I was not thinking at all about damming the entire river!

No problem with trading.

Glad to hear it.

The Reason I picked On the Ohio between the Miami rivers is that It lets me control the trade along the Ohio, both up and down stream. IE Iron and Coal would have a hard time getting past me.

The phrase "blockade running" comes to mind, but I doubt it will come to that.

I'm planning on eventually moving west and tapping into the resources of the Pacific North West.

I think the California guys, who are closer and have orders of magnitude more resources at their disposal, will get to the Pacific NW before you do. I had considered the PNW myself briefly, but thought it would be better (and more interesting ) to set up along the Ohio.