Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

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Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Rye »

Well, this is tremendously fucked up. Take THAT, free speech!

http://www.examiner.com/x-8928-Philadel ... sphemy-law
On Friday July 11th, 2009, Ireland passed the Defamation Bill by one vote. One of the aspects of this bill would make it illegal to criticize religion… any religion under penalty of fines up to 25,000 Euros. That is the equivalent to nearly $35,000.

When I first heard this story on the internets, I was certain that it was a false story. I read the story, googled it, checked out legitimate Ireland news sites, and double checked more Ireland news sites. The story checks out. It seems that the Blasphemy Clause of the Defamation Bill was challenged in the legislature by an amendment which would delete such a clause. The amendment to delete the clause initially passed by one vote, but a request was made for a “walk-through vote.” During that time two more Senators came in and voted against the amendment to delete the clause. This meant that the clause would stay in the bill. The bill then passed by the same margin.

Here is an excerpt from the Blasphemy Clause:
  • Section 36

    (1) A person who publishes or utters blasphemous matter shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable upon conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €100,000. [Amended to €25,000]

    (2) For the purposes of this section, a person publishes or utters blasphemous matter if (a) he or she publishes or utters matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion, and (b) he or she intends, by the publication or utterance of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage.
This part of the bill makes it illegal to criticize any religion either verbally or in writing. Saying anything in which a “substantial number” of followers might find offensive would now be a crime in the Ireland. But the bill goes even further. Here is another excerpt:
  • Section 37

    (1) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section 36, the court may issue a warrant (a) authorising any member of the Garda Siochana to enter (if necessary by the use of reasonable force) at all reasonable times any premises (including a dwelling) at which he or she has reasonable grounds for believing that copies of the statement to which the offence related are to be found, and to search those premises and seize and remove all copies of the statement found therein, (b) directing the seizure and removal by any member of the Garda Siochana of all copies of the statement to which the offence related that are in the possession of any person, specifying the manner in which copies so seized and removed shall be detained and stored by the Garda Siochana.
The Garda Siochana is the Irish police who can now (under this law) break into people’s homes and confiscate copies of any book which might be critical of any religion. I keep trying to point out that any religious criticism is a crime, because many Christians are critical of differing religions. Atheists are not the only ones being targeted here. Simply claiming that the Pope is not infallible might be considered blasphemous to many Catholics. Claiming that the prophet Joseph Smith was not really visited by angels and given magic golden plates would be blasphemous to Mormons. Mentioning the prophet Mohammad without adding the phrase “peace be upon him” would be considered blasphemous to Muslims. And claiming that Scientology is a sham and that Tom Cruise is crazy would obviously be blasphemous to Scientologists.

What if a Christian claimed that if someone was not saved through Jesus Christ, he or she would spend eternity in Hell? An argument could be made that such a statement and even the Bible itself might be considered blasphemous to other religions. In fact, most religious are blasphemous to other religions. Maybe the Irish police will fine everyone.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by DPDarkPrimus »

The obvious solution is for them to confiscate all religious texts, as they are blasphemous to other religions.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Darth Wong »

So does this mean I can continue to stereotype the Irish as a bunch of backward-ass Bible thumpers?
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Fr33ze »

Err, how come I can't find any reliable websites mentioning this?
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Darth Wong »

Fr33ze wrote:Err, how come I can't find any reliable websites mentioning this?
Is the Irish Times not a reliable website? It looks like a full-blown news organization, not just a blogger. Admittedly, I don't know Irish media very well.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 87384.html

PS. According to the Irish Times, the Irish Constitution is basically theocratic and puts the entire country under the authority of Jesus Christ, which requires this provision for some reason. I'm not really sure how, but I'm sure the Irish can explain it as soon as you rouse them from their drunken stupor.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Imperial Overlord »

My family is part Irish (and part German and part Italian and English and so on) and this seems to support the family joke that during the anyone with any brains got the fuck out of Ireland and settled in the New World.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Feil »

Darth Wong wrote:PS. According to the Irish Times, the Irish Constitution is basically theocratic and puts the entire country under the authority of Jesus Christ, which requires this provision for some reason. I'm not really sure how, but I'm sure the Irish can explain it as soon as you rouse them from their drunken stupor.
It basically is.
Constitution of Ireland, Article 44 wrote: (1) The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honor religion.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Broomstick »

Fr33ze wrote:Err, how come I can't find any reliable websites mentioning this?
Because you're an idiot?

No, really, I'm being serious. You couldn't even look that up on Wikipedia? Maybe Google? How about http://www.irishtimes.com/?
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Oni Koneko Damien »

Despite the claims that defamation of all religions is illegal, how much do you want to bet that anyone trying to sue a christian that for saying bad things about, say, Wiccanism, Satanism or any other unpopular religion will get laughed out of court?
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Samuel »

(a) he or she publishes or utters matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion, and (b) he or she intends, by the publication or utterance of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage.
Did Jedi get recognized as an official religion yet? Because if so when can sue Travis :P

Ireland- making the US look good by comparison. I don't have much else to say- this is a country that banned contraception so my standards are pretty low already, but they managed to exceed them. Any chance of the law getting overturned because it grossly violates the constitution of the European Union?
Oni Koneko Damien wrote:Despite the claims that defamation of all religions is illegal, how much do you want to bet that anyone trying to sue a christian that for saying bad things about, say, Wiccanism, Satanism or any other unpopular religion will get laughed out of court?
I think that was already obvious.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Darth Wong »

Oni Koneko Damien wrote:Despite the claims that defamation of all religions is illegal, how much do you want to bet that anyone trying to sue a christian that for saying bad things about, say, Wiccanism, Satanism or any other unpopular religion will get laughed out of court?
The Irish Constitution officially recognizes Christianity. Special treatment for Christianity is therefore embedded right in their national constitution. It's a foregone conclusion that Christianity would receive special treatment under this law.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Aaron »

Odd that our Constitution contains "Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:" yet we lack this BS. Guess we really did get the smarter members of Europe as immigrants.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Darth Wong »

Well, all Commonwealth countries probably have that nonsense to a certain extent. We don't take our Constitution as some kind of Holy Writ the way the Americans do, so it's less important. But if you do write a blasphemy law and prescribe punishments, then this part of the Constitution (which would otherwise probably have little or no effect) suddenly becomes important, because people will appeal to it when attempting to interpret and enforce this law.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Vympel »

I haven't read the whole bill, but:
(b) he or she intends, by the publication or utterance of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage.
Unless there's a 'recklessness' provision after this (i.e. "for the purposes of (b), blah blah blah will be deemed to have intended if they were reckless blah blah blah) this is a pretty good out to avoid being convicted under this absurd law, as they'd have to prove intent.

Of course, the mere existence of this ridiculous law ("outrage" - really?) will serve as an effective tool to oppress free speech about religious bullshit.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Patrick Degan »

Darth Wong wrote:So does this mean I can continue to stereotype the Irish as a bunch of backward-ass Bible thumpers?
Along with Robert Anton Wilson, you'd be in good company.

Methinks Irish society and constitutional law is about to get very much fucked up in the next year trying to enforce this new law.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Darth Wong »

For any Irish bureaucrats or priests who are watching this forum:

Jesus Christ was a whoring catamite who enjoyed being sodomized by Roman legionnaires.

There. I've blasphemed your religion. Now go fuck yourselves.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Invictus ChiKen »

How is this going to play with European Union Laws, do they not have an effect on Ireland or am I 100% wrong on this?
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Themightytom »

Broomstick wrote:
Fr33ze wrote:Err, how come I can't find any reliable websites mentioning this?
Because you're an idiot?

No, really, I'm being serious. You couldn't even look that up on Wikipedia? Maybe Google? How about http://www.irishtimes.com/?
careful broomstick, thats blasphemy against people who worship stupidity.

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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Broomstick »

I'm NeoPagan. We don't believe in blasphemy. Sort of like how atheists don't believe in god :P
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Darth Wong wrote:We don't take our Constitution as some kind of Holy Writ the way the Americans do, so it's less important.
And at the same time, the average Canadian also probably knows more about their Constitution than the average American does.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Samuel »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:We don't take our Constitution as some kind of Holy Writ the way the Americans do, so it's less important.
And at the same time, the average Canadian also probably knows more about their Constitution than the average American does.
Is this for the same reason that atheists tend to know more about religion or just shitty public education?
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Darth Wong »

Actually, Canadians don't really get that much constitutional education. We tend to learn about the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (which we consider the most important part), but not about the rest of it.

Americans also tend to focus on a particular favoured part of the Constitution, but that favourite part varies from person to person. It doesn't help that it's often worded in a maddeningly vague way or incomplete way. Just look at this comparison of how we try to figure out what our respective constitutions say about equality rights:
US Constitutional Amendments wrote:1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
...
14th Amendment: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
...
15th Amendment: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
...
19th Amendment: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms wrote:Section 15:
(1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.
(2) Subsection (1) does not preclude any law, program or activity that has as its object the amelioration of conditions of disadvantaged individuals or groups including those that are disadvantaged because of race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.
The US version is a vaguely worded mess which must be assembled from disjointed pieces and which only explicitly guarantees equality under the law with respect to voting. Otherwise, it guarantees that citizens should have certain rights, and that all races are citizens, but that's not quite the same as saying that everyone gets full equality under the law. Peculiar choices of wording have led to endless debates about precisely how religions should be treated. There is still heated dispute about whether the 1st amendment actually guarantees equality of treatment of all religions. The Canadian one, on the other hand, simply says that the law cannot discriminate at all on a whole series of bases. It's easier to understand something when it was made from the ground up to be easier to understand. And then it conveniently covers affirmative action programs too.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Simplicius »

I imagine if the rights aspects of the US Constitution had been written in one go in a modern era where everyone was much more generally aware of the concept of human rights - as the Canadian Charter was - it would probably be a much more comprehensible document, both in terms of statements of rights and in terms of language.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Darth Wong »

Simplicius wrote:I imagine if the rights aspects of the US Constitution had been written in one go in a modern era where everyone was much more generally aware of the concept of human rights - as the Canadian Charter was - it would probably be a much more comprehensible document, both in terms of statements of rights and in terms of language.
Possibly. Although as the ERA debacle in the 1980s showed, it is not at all clear that such a document could be written and passed. There are powerful forces which would simply refuse to allow the passage of any comprehensive rights amendment like the Canadian charter statement. Frankly, I think Americans are more than happy with the kludgy mess they have now, and would not want the Canadian version.
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Re: Ireland makes blasphemy illegal

Post by Invictus ChiKen »

Darth Wong wrote:
Simplicius wrote:I imagine if the rights aspects of the US Constitution had been written in one go in a modern era where everyone was much more generally aware of the concept of human rights - as the Canadian Charter was - it would probably be a much more comprehensible document, both in terms of statements of rights and in terms of language.
Possibly. Although as the ERA debacle in the 1980s showed, it is not at all clear that such a document could be written and passed. There are powerful forces which would simply refuse to allow the passage of any comprehensive rights amendment like the Canadian charter statement. Frankly, I think Americans are more than happy with the kludgy mess they have now, and would not want the Canadian version.
Think no more. I've often heard it said by my fellow country men that they'd leave the Union before permitting something like they have in "Red Canada."
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