The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[Simon_Jester]

Precisely. Any stupid rule like "any sentence which starts with "I can't" proves your incompetence" is clearly created by someone who is not a thinker by nature. It literally attacks the way you say it rather than what you say, which is a very common mental deficiency among non-thinkers. Non-thinkers love these sort of very simple rules because they require so little mental effort to implement.

Having said that, as noted earlier, this particular officer in the story was marching into an office where everybody was guilty until proven innocent for other reasons already, so I don't know that what she did was necessarily unreasonable.

I'd say that it was unreasonable but not unjustifiable. It's hard to say that 'yes, this was definitely the right thing for her to do', but it doesn't seem like proof that she is screwing up badly; it can be explained as part of a consistent policy that makes sense even if it's clearly a bad decision when taken individually.

One justification is, as you say, that this is a group of officers that are already guilty by default.

The other is that her main objective here is to affect the morale and attitude of the army as a whole. She can't possibly have enough officers to replace everyone in a position of responsibility in Third Army, so she needs to get the bulk of the officers up and running.

There are plenty of precedents for this kind of thing mentioned earlier- Patton at Kasserine, Ridgeway in Korea, and so on. Asanee knows about that, so she knows what works as a way to turn armies from bumblers into killing machines. Which is why she makes such a dramatic entrance and makes all the side comments she does. She's deliberately trying to spread the message that she's a complete hardass who would as soon fire you for incompetence as look at you, so you'd better get your act straightened out before she takes a look at it. Even if she'd normally hear the colonel out before dismissing him, it's to her advantage to create the impression of being more ruthless than she really is... probably more to her advantage (and the army's) than leaving the colonel in command long enough to see what he can do with it.

[R011]

Precisely. Any stupid rule like "any sentence which starts with "I can't" proves your incompetence" is clearly created by someone who is not a thinker by nature.

Who says it's a rule? It's a comment on a specific situation. Asanee asked how quickly could he start and the immediate answer was not that it would take a certain amount of time, but that he just couldn't do it.

[Simon_Jester]

Precisely. Any stupid rule like "any sentence which starts with "I can't" proves your incompetence" is clearly created by someone who is not a thinker by nature.

Who says it's a rule? It's a comment on a specific situation. Asanee asked how quickly could he start and the immediate answer was not that it would take a certain amount of time, but that he just couldn't do it.

Good point. I'd forgotten that.

General Asanee said "How quickly can we get [First Regiment] on the road east? I want it up in Chong Sadao by dusk." She did not say "move First Regiment up to Chong Sadao by dusk." She was asking a question and expressing a goal, not giving an order.

The unnamed colonel chose to focus on Asanee's goal, telling her that it was impossible, and not on her request for information, telling her something like "It will take twelve hours and it's only six hours till dusk." That's not a good practice in an efficient chain of command; it is more important for juniors to give seniors information than for juniors to weigh in on what those seniors should be trying to do.

But we still have the problem that Asanee cut the colonel off before he had the chance to give her any information, or to fail to give her information. Now she's firing someone because the first half dozen words out of their mouth aren't a self-contained answer to the question she asked. Which is hardly better than doing it because they used the Forbidden Word "can't."

[Stuart]

OK, it's probably not perfect, but the point is it's not hard to change the wording to eliminate this whole mess.

I strongly disagree with the word "mess". Part 17 has sparked off a long an interesting debate over whether the General's actions were the correct ones under the circumstances and a more general discussion over the differences bewteen military and civilian protocols. It is one of the purposes of fiction to cause people to ask questions and to look at situations in unfamiliar circumstances. In this respect, I would count this part as being highly successful. In addition, people do make mistakes, they do commit injustices, if a story neglects that, then we have an account of perfect people making perfect decisions regardless of circumstances. That's a very boring situation, its completely unrealistic and it utterly ignores the circumstance where there is no "right" decision, there are only least-wrong decisions.

This is intense focus on phrasing. You're aware of that, right? You'd be willing to fire someone depending on the phrasing, even if after literally 30 seconds they'd have told you exactly the same thing? This tangent is making me wonder more and more how many participants have ever actually held a skilled-labor job, and how many of those who have held such a job should have.

And if you had ever been in a staff college you would know that intense focus on phraseology is one of the prime teaching points. Officers have to deal with an environment where messages are easily misunderstood and the effects of misunderstandings are utterly disastrous. So, phraseology is established and made so second nature that people use the preferred phraseology without thinking. For example, in naval command, nobody ever gives the order "reduce speed by two knots" since it only takes a slight burble to turn that into "reduce speed to two knots". The order is always "Make revolutions for twenty five knots" or whatever the desired speed is. As soon as the recipient hears the "make revolutions" bit he knows the numbers coming up are the desired speed. Most of the odd mannerisms of military speech derive from that consideration. Also, Staff Colleges all strongly discourage the use of the words "I can't" for one very simple reason. It can easily be considered refusing a direct order and that is a court-martial offense. A very final one for one's career - a quote for you "its good to be acquitted, better never to be tried". That's why the unnamed Colonel was cut off so quickly, quite apart from anything else, he was about to talk himself into serious trouble.

To be honest about this, you started your participation here off with a damned stupid and ignorant remark, and you've been digging yourself deeper with every post you've made. A small piece of advice, when you've got yourself into a hole, stop digging. You're making yourself look a complete fool.

Because she was gloating that the ex-Prime Minister was gone because he "pissed in the Army's cereal"?

You're taking the comment out of context. The exchange was.

"You wouldn't throw your weight around like this if Thaksin was still in charge." Senawith was stuffing papers from his desk into a briefcase.

"As it happens I did, but anyway, he isn’t, he pissed on the Army's turf and he's gone. My cousin is now the Prime Minister.

This exchange tells you (and was put there to tell you) that you are not in Kansas any more. The Thai Army is an intensely political organization, the recognition that it has a political role and position is written into its fundamental philosophy. By the way, it is also an intensely German Army, its basic philosophy and attitudes are Germanic in origin, not American. The reason why is quite simple, during the late 1920s and early 1930s, the Army was completely reorganized and trained by expatriate Imperial German Army officers. So, we're dealing with an Army that simply doesn't think the same way as the American Army - something that has led to quite a few problems over the years.

Right, so the exchange above isn't gloating at all. It is indeed a pissing match but it's one over who has the most political power. Rewriting the conversation into western terms, at might go something like this.

"I'm an important member of the Puea Thai Party. I can cause you a lot of trouble over this." (Puea Thai is the political party closely associated with Thaksin Shinawatra).

"Trouble I can handle. And it was his interference in military matters that cost him his job. Now, my cousin is Prime Minister, my political influence is family not just party membership. If you want a political war, you can have one. Until then I've got more important things to do." (Family is critically important in Thailand).

Rightly or wrongly, justifiably or unjustifiably, a Thai military officer's political connections are part and parcel of the authority he - or she - holds. "My political allies are stronger than your political allies" is standard part of any turf war. In many ways, this works like the Royal Navy in the 18th and early 19th centuries. A senior officer picked promising junior officers, looked after them, shepherded their careers, got them influential posts etc. If they prospered and deserved the patronage, then they were moved still higher, if they failed or let their patron down, they got quietly shifted into backwaters. The Thai Army works more or less the same way. So, the little exchange in question is a suggestion that this is an Army that doesn't work the same way as the non-political armies westerners may be more familiar with.

[Bayonet]

That's why the unnamed Colonel was cut off so quickly, quite apart from anything else, he was about to talk himself into serious trouble.

This is an important point. LTG Asanee, despite blowing the doors off the CP for effect, and staging a deliberately dramatic takeover, is probably not entirely indifferent to the fates of her fellow officers, even ones from competing political parties. Being relieved of duty is not a death sentence. She has little inclination and less time to go mucking about looking for things to criminally prosecute people for. I can assure you she could find some if she were so inclined; including people higher on the chain of command than the unnamed colonel. She needs to put this to bed and start developing the situation.

In general, we try really hard not to have to take disciplinary action against troops, and would prefer not to hear self incriminating statements, when a kick in the arse will serve more productively than an Article 15. I've been known to shut someone up with an arsechewing, or put convenient words in their mouth rather than have to hear something I might be legally obliged to take action against.

And we've still not learned whether LTG Asanee was right. Even very good officers make stupid mistakes from time to time; sometimes they matter, and sometimes they don't. Usually we never even know.

[Buritot]

And here I am, yet another one who registered to leave a comment for Stuarts and SD.net's work. Do I have to pull a number?

First of an inconsistency I stumbled upon: languages in hell.
I assumed the gift of tongues readily employed by the baldricks to be inherent in every hellspawn with a decent humanlike genetic makeup. The woman who established contact between Lt(?) Jade Kim and Caesar was describes as:

In ten thousand years, she had learned many languages from the screams and gibbering cries of the tormented, so with only a little difficulty she recognized what they were saying.

Furthermore I dare to remember a certain Russian private who reported back on duty after being killed who was ordered to work in a unit of mixed languages as an interpreter since he could speak all languages. Which one is correct?

Now comes the fun part - portals.

1. What is their portaling makeup? Do they work like a two-sided wormhole that lets pass matter from both sides of a disc (à la Star Gate)? Or is their nature more akin to Valve game "Portal"? For my part I always thought them to be like a cloud that exists in two places and vector as well as movement of any matter passing through is conserved, i.e. you could traverse through the portal from every secantian angle (is that a word?). If the disc theory is correct, is it possible to change the angle of it? Make it horizontal instead of vertical?

2. What is their fixation on the physical plane?

2.1 It obviously can't be bedrock or simply ground (see Sheffield, Detroit, Bermudas), there must be an overlaying reference frame suited to Earth or every portal made would have swished away into space.

Before we could employ any advanced portal uses (see ground-fuelled portal rocket) we need to clarify that means of fixation.

2.2 The same goes for the gravity well method, unless the orbital maths is unnecessarily convoluted the portals would have fallen through the crust and happily returned the sky volcanoes of fame, only this time they would be constantly fuelling even more volcanic highly ferriferous eruptions in hell (and heaven, don't forget the Heavengate, open for millennia).

2.3 How about Earth's magnetic field? As far as I can remember the gorgon moved the foetal portals over Sheffield and Detroit before giving signal to rupture the fabric of space. Furthermore I assume there is a connection in the fixation of a portal and the frequency and amplitude employed in opening it (see ch. 57, Detroit portal). Since the Naga were younglings and not providing energy harmonized enough ("chanting in chorus", timbre, tone) the alinement to the local magnetic field was out of synch.

Concerning the whole Asanee-Arsekicking-Adventure, I didn't particularly think of it as jarring. Admittedly, I've served briefly and in this time had to unexpectedly often work for officers, so I can actually think of a one or two people who I could see pulling such a stunt.

[bcoogler]

Thank you Stuart. This has been a very interesting and educating.

And if you had ever been in a staff college you would know that intense focus on phraseology is one of the prime teaching points.

Unless the job specifically requires special language -- which would likely be taught in a corporate training class -- I don't think there is anything equivalent in the civilian world.

Except for the obvious examples such as police, fire, emergency room, air traffic controller, the vast majority of civilian jobs do not involve life and death situations. Most of the time, phrasing simply isn't an issue, and hitting a situation (part 17) where phrasing is very important is a foreign concept.

My own job is not life or death, but it does involve money. If a key computer system crashes, hundreds of workers can be idled. Time is of the essence, and potential revenue lost can run into the millions. Imagine for example, walking into a store and finding you cannot make a purchase because the cash registers (point-of-sale terminals) are down. Now multiply that in stores across town and cross several states.

So now you have joined a crisis call as one of many technical people pulled in (network, system administrators, database administrators, application support) to work as a team to resolve the problem as quickly as possible. There are probably a few Division level managers and Area Vice Presidents lurking in the background listening to the conference, all of whom outrank your own boss. Careful phrasing is suddenly VERY important. You had better be saying how you CAN resolve the problem.

One poorly worded phrase is still unlikely get you fired, but if you come across as expressing negatives all the time, why you can't do something instead of how you can, then yes you will eventually be sent packing.

[Pelranius]

Thank you Stuart. This has been a very interesting and educating.

Unless the job specifically requires special language -- which would likely be taught in a corporate training class -- I don't think there is anything equivalent in the civilian world.

Except for the obvious examples such as police, fire, emergency room, air traffic controller, the vast majority of civilian jobs do not involve life and death situations. Most of the time, phrasing simply isn't an issue, and hitting a situation (part 17) where phrasing is very important is a foreign concept.

My own job is not life or death, but it does involve money. If a key computer system crashes, hundreds of workers can be idled. Time is of the essence, and potential revenue lost can run into the millions. Imagine for example, walking into a store and finding you cannot make a purchase because the cash registers (point-of-sale terminals) are down. Now multiply that in stores across town and cross several states.

So now you have joined a crisis call as one of many technical people pulled in (network, system administrators, database administrators, application support) to work as a team to resolve the problem as quickly as possible. There are probably a few Division level managers and Area Vice Presidents lurking in the background listening to the conference, all of whom outrank your own boss. Careful phrasing is suddenly VERY important. You had better be saying how you CAN resolve the problem.

One poorly worded phrase is still unlikely get you fired, but if you come across as expressing negatives all the time, why you can't do something instead of how you can, then yes you will eventually be sent packing.

Well, the civilian world is sometimes a more forgiving place, and often corporations cut their employees some more slack since unlike the military sphere, it would be easier for a disgruntled employee to switch jobs, so you want to make the odds of that happening a little higher.

[Darth Wong]

Well, it's certainly more forgiving in terms of protocol. The military is very strict about things that seem ridiculous to a civilian, like saluting a superior, addressing him by his title, etc. No one in any civilian business is expected to show such obsequious deference towards those higher in the command structure, and any business which enforced such strict adherence to this medieval-holdover convention would probably find itself rapidly losing employees.

PS. It's worth remembering that much of this tangent was precipitated by bcoogler arguing that civilians should be treated similarly. He used it as an example of something he looked for when he himself did interviews for potential new employees.

[Pelranius]

Well, it's certainly more forgiving in terms of protocol. The military is very strict about things that seem ridiculous to a civilian, like saluting a superior, addressing him by his title, etc. No one in any civilian business is expected to show such obsequious deference towards those higher in the command structure, and any business which enforced such strict adherence to this medieval-holdover convention would probably find itself rapidly losing employees.

PS. It's worth remembering that much of this tangent was precipitated by bcoogler arguing that civilians should be treated similarly. He used it as an example of something he looked for when he himself did interviews for potential new employees.

Discipline in theory is supposed to mentally condition soldiers to carry out orders even if resulting in the deaths of said soldier (and on a more cynical view, to indoctrinate soldiers into institutional and ideological norms). Of course, that's in theory and often subverted by incompetent and bullying superiors, as well as such an excessive focus on discipline can discourage the sort of flexibility to keep up with the changing situation.

Military style discipline in civilian employment is rather undesirable because it would reinforce the tendency of subordinates unwilling to state the mistakes of superior, in addition to the usual morale issues.

[Junghalli]

I strongly disagree with the word "mess". Part 17 has sparked off a long an interesting debate over whether the General's actions were the correct ones under the circumstances and a more general discussion over the differences bewteen military and civilian protocols. It is one of the purposes of fiction to cause people to ask questions and to look at situations in unfamiliar circumstances. In this respect, I would count this part as being highly successful. In addition, people do make mistakes, they do commit injustices, if a story neglects that, then we have an account of perfect people making perfect decisions regardless of circumstances. That's a very boring situation, its completely unrealistic and it utterly ignores the circumstance where there is no "right" decision, there are only least-wrong decisions.

Ah. It had seemed like portraying the General as making a highly questionable decision in that scene was against your intended characterization. If you like the idea, however, then of course there's no need to change it.

And if you had ever been in a staff college you would know that intense focus on phraseology is one of the prime teaching points. Officers have to deal with an environment where messages are easily misunderstood and the effects of misunderstandings are utterly disastrous. So, phraseology is established and made so second nature that people use the preferred phraseology without thinking. For example, in naval command, nobody ever gives the order "reduce speed by two knots" since it only takes a slight burble to turn that into "reduce speed to two knots". The order is always "Make revolutions for twenty five knots" or whatever the desired speed is. As soon as the recipient hears the "make revolutions" bit he knows the numbers coming up are the desired speed. Most of the odd mannerisms of military speech derive from that consideration. Also, Staff Colleges all strongly discourage the use of the words "I can't" for one very simple reason. It can easily be considered refusing a direct order and that is a court-martial offense.

That is enlightening. I was going to ask "is this 'don't start a sentence with can't' philosophy or anything like it actually prevelant in any real (competent) military?".

[Simon_Jester]

Well, it's certainly more forgiving in terms of protocol. The military is very strict about things that seem ridiculous to a civilian, like saluting a superior, addressing him by his title, etc. No one in any civilian business is expected to show such obsequious deference towards those higher in the command structure, and any business which enforced such strict adherence to this medieval-holdover convention would probably find itself rapidly losing employees.

On the other hand, the convention does seem to work for the military. People who've gotten used to civilian styles may think it's stupid, but I'd if it really were stupid, someone would have dropped the protocol, gotten better results that way, and stomped all over the armies who didn't drop it. To some extent that has happened (in competent militaries today, junior officers are generally more free to offer suggestions and use initiative than they were a few hundred years ago), but it doesn't look like it's going to vanish entirely any time soon.

[bcoogler]

Well, it's certainly more forgiving in terms of protocol. The military is very strict about things that seem ridiculous to a civilian, like saluting a superior, addressing him by his title, etc. No one in any civilian business is expected to show such obsequious deference towards those higher in the command structure, and any business which enforced such strict adherence to this medieval-holdover convention would probably find itself rapidly losing employees.

PS. It's worth remembering that much of this tangent was precipitated by bcoogler arguing that civilians should be treated similarly. He used it as an example of something he looked for when he himself did interviews for potential new employees.

Agreed this tangent is getting too far off topic. Buritot has made a similar point.

With that in mind, I've created this topic entry:

Board index » Non-Fiction » Off-Topic >> The Salvation War: Pantheocide -- Off topic discussions http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=135650

Are folks agreeable to a change of venue for discussions of "can" vs "can't", military vs civilian world views, and other intense phrasing?

[Junghalli]

On the other hand, the convention does seem to work for the military. People who've gotten used to civilian styles may think it's stupid, but I'd if it really were stupid, someone would have dropped the protocol, gotten better results that way, and stomped all over the armies who didn't drop it. To some extent that has happened (in competent militaries today, junior officers are generally more free to offer suggestions and use initiative than they were a few hundred years ago), but it doesn't look like it's going to vanish entirely any time soon.

That still leaves it as possibly being not "stupid" but "unnecessary". I'm not saying this is necessarily actually the case, but you can in principle have unnecessary rituals and still not have it be any kind of real liability. In fact, they may still serve adaptive functions (albeit ones that can potentially be served just as well in other ways).

Are folks agreeable to a change of venue for discussions of "can" vs "can't", military vs civilian world views, and other intense phrasing?

I can continue the discussion over there if others prefer it that way but I personally don't think it's really necessary. We have the cleaned up fanfics thread for people who want to read the story without having to go through a bunch of extraneous material.

It seems to be sort of winding down anyway.

[Lonestar]

I strongly disagree with the word "mess". Part 17 has sparked off a long an interesting debate over whether the General's actions were the correct ones under the circumstances and a more general discussion over the differences bewteen military and civilian protocols.

Speaking as someone who WAS in the military, GREW UP in the military, and CONTINUES to work with the military as a scumbag contractor...I'm calling bullshit. I can only think of one possible instance where a high(ish) ranking officer is dismissed on the spot, and that's when a ship's CO is booted after the ship touches something other than water. And even then it's iffy, we managed to bang a navigation buoy in San Diego Harbor with the CO at the conn, and he remained captain.

If a new captain shows up to a ship and finds out that his engineering department is trashed, he doesn't fire the CHENG in the first 30 seconds, he finds out what the hell is wrong then fires him if the CHENG shows no sign of improvement. And I submit that a ship at sea in peacetime is a hell of a lot like a ship at sea in wartime.

This exchange tells you (and was put there to tell you) that you are not in Kansas any more. The Thai Army is an intensely political organization, the recognition that it has a political role and position is written into its fundamental philosophy. By the way, it is also an intensely German Army, its basic philosophy and attitudes are Germanic in origin, not American. The reason why is quite simple, during the late 1920s and early 1930s, the Army was completely reorganized and trained by expatriate Imperial German Army officers. So, we're dealing with an Army that simply doesn't think the same way as the American Army - something that has led to quite a few problems over the years.

Right, so the exchange above isn't gloating at all. It is indeed a pissing match but it's one over who has the most political power. Rewriting the conversation into western terms, at might go something like this.

"I'm an important member of the Puea Thai Party. I can cause you a lot of trouble over this." (Puea Thai is the political party closely associated with Thaksin Shinawatra).

"Trouble I can handle. And it was his interference in military matters that cost him his job. Now, my cousin is Prime Minister, my political influence is family not just party membership. If you want a political war, you can have one. Until then I've got more important things to do." (Family is critically important in Thailand).

Rightly or wrongly, justifiably or unjustifiably, a Thai military officer's political connections are part and parcel of the authority he - or she - holds. "My political allies are stronger than your political allies" is standard part of any turf war. In many ways, this works like the Royal Navy in the 18th and early 19th centuries. A senior officer picked promising junior officers, looked after them, shepherded their careers, got them influential posts etc. If they prospered and deserved the patronage, then they were moved still higher, if they failed or let their patron down, they got quietly shifted into backwaters. The Thai Army works more or less the same way. So, the little exchange in question is a suggestion that this is an Army that doesn't work the same way as the non-political armies westerners may be more familiar with.

So, boiled down, it's right back to what I originally said:

She was taking out political enemies.

[Stuart]

Speaking as someone who WAS in the military, GREW UP in the military, and CONTINUES to work with the military as a scumbag contractor...I'm calling bullshit. I can only think of one possible instance where a high(ish) ranking officer is dismissed on the spot, and that's when a ship's CO is booted after the ship touches something other than water. And even then it's iffy, we managed to bang a navigation buoy in San Diego Harbor with the CO at the conn, and he remained captain. If a new captain shows up to a ship and finds out that his engineering department is trashed, he doesn't fire the CHENG in the first 30 seconds, he finds out what the hell is wrong then fires him if the CHENG shows no sign of improvement. And I submit that a ship at sea in peacetime is a hell of a lot like a ship at sea in wartime.

the problem here is that replacements of Army officers who have been found wanting from a command point of view is so common as to be almost routine. One can point to numerous replacements of battalion, brigade, divisional and higher level officers in WW2 for failure to perform or because underlings failed to perform or simply because something needed to be changed for morale/operational reasons. That applied in France, the Western Desert, Italy and the Far East. The replacement of General Ralph C Smith during the battle of Saipan (a situation analagous to the one depicted here) is a cause celebre and highlighted the differences between Army adn Marine Corps doctrine. We've already seen how the situation described here (firing an entire command staff who were non-performing) was based on Ridgeway's takeover of Eighth Army in Korea. One can find similar cases in Vietnam et al. Finally, your comment about immediate relief in the navy isn't true. I can think of many cases where commanding officers have been fired on the spot for cause. The commanders of Constellation, Kitty Hawk and John F Kennedy all got fired for cause due to the material deficiencies of their ships, quite recently two DDG-51 skippers got relieved on the spot when their ships failed operational readiness inspections while a third was summarily relieved when he started joking with a Korean warship about auctioning off some of his female crew members (that case was written up in Proceedings). Then we have the submarine drivers who've been relieved for hitting things. As a final note, one might also point to the relief of Admiral Fletcher after Guadalcanal following allegations that he was insufficiently aggressive (complaints that have much less validity than the events described here). And Jack Fletcher was an MoH awardee.

So, boiled down, it's right back to what I originally said: She was taking out political enemies.

I'm sorry but that is not so. Please re-read what I said. The decision was taken on military grounds (non-performance), the relieved officer brought in his political position and influence and the General trumped it with her own. Taking out a political enemy had nothing to do with it. Also note (from Section 15) she had orders from her superior to remove the command problems with immediate effect.

[tim31]

No one in any civilian business is expected to show such obsequious deference towards those higher in the command structure, and any business which enforced such strict adherence to this medieval-holdover convention would probably find itself rapidly losing employees.

...outside of Japan, of course.

[Lonestar]

the problem here is that replacements of Army officers who have been found wanting from a command point of view is so common as to be almost routine. One can point to numerous replacements of battalion, brigade, divisional and higher level officers in WW2 for failure to perform or because underlings failed to perform or simply because something needed to be changed for morale/operational reasons. That applied in France, the Western Desert, Italy and the Far East. The replacement of General Ralph C Smith during the battle of Saipan (a situation analagous to the one depicted here) is a cause celebre and highlighted the differences between Army adn Marine Corps doctrine. We've already seen how the situation described here (firing an entire command staff who were non-performing) was based on Ridgeway's takeover of Eighth Army in Korea. One can find similar cases in Vietnam et al.

Yeah, and General Matthis removed Marines from command during the initial invasion of Iraq, but he didn't call them up and say "you're fired", he at least made a half-ass effort to hear their side of the story.

Finally, your comment about immediate relief in the navy isn't true. I can think of many cases where commanding officers have been fired on the spot for cause. The commanders of Constellation, Kitty Hawk and John F Kennedy all got fired for cause due to the material deficiencies of their ships, quite recently two DDG-51 skippers got relieved on the spot when their ships failed operational readiness inspections while a third was summarily relieved when he started joking with a Korean warship about auctioning off some of his female crew members (that case was written up in Proceedings).

Oh, you mean after exhaustive inspections by the INSURV people? It hardly qualifies as "on the spot", and you know it. In those cases there is absolutly no doubt that the CO has dropped the ball. Firing someone 30 seconds upon arrival and cutting off folks in mid-sentence is a big difference.

Then we have the submarine drivers who've been relieved for hitting things.

Which goes back to my "touching anything but water" comment.

As a final note, one might also point to the relief of Admiral Fletcher after Guadalcanal following allegations that he was insufficiently aggressive (complaints that have much less validity than the events described here). And Jack Fletcher was an MoH awardee.

All of which fails to meet the "within a few minutes of new CO arriving" criteria.

So, boiled down, it's right back to what I originally said: She was taking out political enemies.

I'm sorry but that is not so. Please re-read what I said. The decision was taken on military grounds (non-performance), the relieved officer brought in his political position and influence and the General trumped it with her own. Taking out a political enemy had nothing to do with it. Also note (from Section 15) she had orders from her superior to remove the command problems with immediate effect.[/quote]

Sorry, but she walks in, starts firing people, and then acknowledges that (some of)the people she has fired happens to be her political enemies. By your own words, the Thai military is sufficiently political that it plays into the identifying who specific soldiers are.

[Stuart]

Yeah, and General Matthis removed Marines from command during the initial invasion of Iraq, but he didn't call them up and say "you're fired", he at least made a half-ass effort to hear their side of the story.

He may have done, but that was his choice. Ridgeway and Patton (not to mention H.M. Smith) both used the "walk right in and fire them" technique. So, by the way did a lot of Russian and German generals. Zhukov was well-known for doing so.

Oh, you mean after exhaustive inspections by the INSURV people? It hardly qualifies as "on the spot", and you know it. In those cases there is absolutly no doubt that the CO has dropped the ball. Firing someone 30 seconds upon arrival and cutting off folks in mid-sentence is a big difference.

Circumstances differ but the insurv came first, the actual firing equated to walking into theCDC and saying bye-bye. Here, the equivalent of Insurv was the division's demonstrated failure to carry out its assigned responsibilities. To give an equivalent, just before the Battle fo Midway, Nimitz goes down to Pearl harbor three days after issuing the sortie order and finds Enterprise still tied up alongside with no effort being made to move her. How long would her captain have lasted?

Sorry, but she walks in, starts firing people, and then acknowledges that (some of)the people she has fired happens to be her political enemies. By your own words, the Thai military is sufficiently political that it plays into the identifying who specific soldiers are.

Once again, the man she fired tried to play the political card and she trumped it with her own. That's not firing somebody for political reasons.

[Lonestar]

He may have done, but that was his choice. Ridgeway and Patton (not to mention H.M. Smith) both used the "walk right in and fire them" technique. So, by the way did a lot of Russian and German generals. Zhukov was well-known for doing so.

Well, Bully for them.

Circumstances differ but the insurv came first, the actual firing equated to walking into theCDC and saying bye-bye.

Yeah, and at no point "we're finding a lot of raging hazards, expect to be fired" percolates down to the CO? Again, this is not a on-the-spot deal for them.

Here, the equivalent of Insurv was the division's demonstrated failure to carry out its assigned responsibilities. To give an equivalent, just before the Battle fo Midway, Nimitz goes down to Pearl harbor three days after issuing the sortie order and finds Enterprise still tied up alongside with no effort being made to move her. How long would her captain have lasted?

Let's be honest Stuart, the scenario as you just presented would not have happened. Nimitz would have known the Enterprise was still pierside within the first day, not 3 days later, and he would have heard a lot more about why it was just sitting there rather than "I dunno, she's just sitting there". Either the CO would have told him, or if the CO was a scumbag he would have caught waterfront RUMINT. Or something would come up when none of the tugs cast off to prep for the evolution.

Once again, the man she fired tried to play the political card and she trumped it with her own. That's not firing somebody for political reasons.

Sorry, but now we're talking your word for it when (1)She acknowledges some of the personnel she just fired are political enemies and (2)You just admitted that political affliation is important to the identity of a Thai soldier. While I agree there's really no wiggle room for the Intel guy that got canned, she then proceeded to move on and cut people off in midsentence(who may have had legitimate reasons for the delays) and fire them. Politics is clearly in play here.

[Darth Wong]

Lonestar, are you trying to argue that this should not realistically happen with a Thai Army officer in the story, or are you saying that it may be realistic, but it rubs you the wrong way because it makes her a poor officer?

[Lonestar]

The second one. If your very first tool is "fire people" then I think it makes her a poor officer.

[Darth Wong]

The second one. If your very first tool is "fire people" then I think it makes her a poor officer.

Well, that may well be the case here. I don't think the story is necessarily harmed by the presence of an officer who does things you may vehemently disagree with, so long as those actions are plausible.

[Stuart]

Well, Bully for them.

And they happen to be a hell of a lot better qualified to decide on proper responses to circumstances that you are

Let's be honest Stuart, the scenario as you just presented would not have happened. Nimitz would have known the Enterprise was still pierside within the first day, not 3 days later, and he would have heard a lot more about why it was just sitting there rather than "I dunno, she's just sitting there". Either the CO would have told him, or if the CO was a scumbag he would have caught waterfront RUMINT. Or something would come up when none of the tugs cast off to prep for the evolution.

That's why its called a hypothetical. And it no mroe stretched than your attempts to compare a peacetime Navy with a wartime Army.

Sorry, but now we're talking your word for it when (1)She acknowledges some of the personnel she just fired are political enemies and (2)You just admitted that political affliation is important to the identity of a Thai soldier. While I agree there's really no wiggle room for the Intel guy that got canned, she then proceeded to move on and cut people off in midsentence(who may have had legitimate reasons for the delays) and fire them. Politics is clearly in play here.

Once again, you are completely failing to read the context (or, more likely trying to defend a hopeless position.) Say it again, very patiently. We have a fired officer trying to play a political card, that card gets trumped by a more potent one. That is not firing somebody for political ends, that is simply using politics to reinforce a decision taken for other reasons. Also reflect on the fact that the Gneeral was under orders to sort the defective command structure out and sort it out fast. That means rough-and-ready tactics. And, as I've pointed out before, ones that have a long history of highly use by some of the most famous military commanders around. Frankly, I don't see your position as being supportable.

[Stuart]

Section 18, DIMO(N) Field Research Facility, Camp Hell-Alpha, Hell

"Are you quite comfortable, kitten?" Doctor Ilya Muromets asked the question almost on autopilot. He was too concerned with getting his equipment set up and stabilized to be really interested in the answer.

"Yes, thank you Doctor. But shouldn’t we be over at the operational base, I thought there were troop movements to get started?"

"There are, but the units aren’t ready to move yet. It'll be a few hours before the military portals will be needed so we're going to run a few experiments into portal opening. Portal science is a big thing now, several of the big universities have opened up departments to study all the new physics we're running into out here."

"Hurry up and wait." Dani repeated the time-honored phrase with gloomy relish. "What are we doing here anyway?"

"That's right, but these experiments have a long term significance. We're looking into how the other end of the portal gets established, or more specifically, what part the contact at the other end plays. Then, we're hoping we can automate it so we don’t need a sensitive at both ends to push a portal through."

"That's easy, I just relax and let my mind search. When I get an echo, I hold it and the equipment pumps energy into the link. That's the bit that hurts, when the power goes right up, it feels like my brain is being torn apart. Like the worst migraine you ever had. It's not nearly so bad here in Hell though."

Muromets nodded in acknowledgement. "Most of the work being done right now is insulating the sensitive from that power transmission, to reduce exactly what your describing. But, I'm more interested in the echo you mentioned. You see, if I'm right, there isn’t a transmission of any sort from the sensitive back to you. What you're feeling is a sort of resonance of your own transmission. The better the sensitive the other end, the stronger the resonance. My belief is that the resonance strength is determined by the degree of Nephilim ancestry the sensitive has. You're the best because you have a high level of such ancestry."

"That would make sense." kitten giggled. "Where I come from, family trees don’t have many branches."

"My equipment has settled down now." Muromets sighed. "The trouble is that the signals we are getting are so weak that they're lost in the electronic noise unless we're really careful. That's why they escaped detection for so long, nobody ever believed something that slight could be so important. People saw the signals but dismissed them as artifacts of the equipment. Just random noise caused by statistic uncertainty. The evidence was there, right in front of us the whole time and nobody looked at it."

"Just like tinfoil hats." Dani tossed the remark in with quiet satisfaction. The critical, proven, importance of wearing a tinfoil hat was a serious embarrassment to the entire psychiatric profession who had once used wearing one as a trademark of insanity.

"Just like tinfoil hats. Now, kitten, I want you just to scan with your mind, relax and try to find a contact. There's no need to communicate with them, what we're interested in is the signal you send out and the one you get back. If my theory is right, we should be able to compare them and determine that the return is a resonance from your transmission. If that isn't the case, we'll have to dump my hypothesis and start again."

"How many times have you done that Doctor?"

Muromets paused and counted on his fingers. "We're run through eleven hypotheses so far and every one of them failed to pan out. Each time we got off to a good start but we ran into things the hypothesis couldn’t explain and we had to start over. My hypothesis is number twelve. I'm hoping that if this one works out, we'll be able to build transponders that each resonate on a slightly different set of transmission characteristics. Then, we can build those transponders into things like cell-phone towers and install them all over Earth and Hell. That'll mean we'll be just like the naga, we can open a portal more or less anywhere we want to. Only, unlike the naga, we will be able to do it with pinpoint accuracy."
"Why don’t we study naga then, rather than kitten?"

"Because we don’t want the Baldricks believing they are actually useful to us. We've got our foot firmly on their necks right now and that's how we want it to stay."

"And the Generals realize what a weapons system that will make." Dani was impressed.

"That's right, one we want to keep very much to ourselves. But, there's another point to this. At the moment we have only got one reference point for these signals, transmissions from Earth to Hell and back. That tells us something but not much. If we can really analyze these signals and understand them, as soon as we get the Earth to Heaven and back signals, we can really get to work and start to develop a proper theory of why portals go where they do. And what portals are of course, we don’t really understand that yet either.

"I've got a contact Doctor."

"Well done, kitten. Hold it, just don’t do anything with it. The equipment is making records of everything."

Section 12, DIMO(N) Field Research Center, Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

"Now this is very interesting indeed." Doctor Crosby tapped the charts in front of him.

"What's up doc?" Colonel Warhol couldn’t resist the line.

"We've got power readings from vehicles and aircraft that passed through the portals. Remember that U-2 that crashed a few weeks back? Well, we all thought it lost power as it was transiting the Hell-Alpha portal and went in. U-2s are prone to that sort of thing after all. But, the accident investigation board found that its engine was actually running when it crashed. Choked up with dust, certainly, its filters had failed. Still getting power though. It was right on the borderline of flying and crashing when something pushed it over the edge. So, amongst other things, we started measuring engine power outputs as the platforms they power pass through the portals."

"And?" Warhol had never managed to quite understand why civilians took so long to get to the point.

"All the data is consistent, they show a slight increase in power output as the vehicle passes through. That means when something goes through a portal, there's a slight energy barrier and the engine has to increase output slightly to compensate for it. There is actually an energy cost in going through a portal and that is of immense significance."

"Well that's just great for you people."

"It's quite significant for you too." Crosby spoke with acerbity. Why couldn't military people have any patience? When they wanted information, they wanted it now and in words of one syllable. "Look at the figures for the ships going through the Hell-Bravo portal. The power output increase is tiny, so slight we can hardly measure it. But using Hell-Alpha, the power output on vehicles is significantly greater. I bet the crews noticed an engine surge as they went through but thought nothing of it. That's what killed that U-2, going through the portal needed a tiny bit more power and the engine just couldn’t give it."

"So?"

"Think about it. Hell-Bravo is at sea level both sides. Very little altitude differential, tiny barrier energy. Hell-Alpha has an altitude differential, there's a slightly greater energy barrier. I bet if we had an enormous altitude difference, the barrier would be so great we couldn’t cross it. And that would mean we couldn't use it to supply, for example, the International Space Station. Of course, I doubt if altitude is actually the constraint, there must be something else and altitude is just the physical manifestation……"

Crosby was interrupted by a wailing cacophony as the base sirens suddenly burst into life. Warhol looked around for a few seconds, then the realization dawned on him. "Crosby, move! The base is under attack."

The scientist stood in the center of the room, looking around him, uncertain what to do. Warhol dived past him, towards one of the emergency cabinets that studded the walls around the conference room. It was the work of a second to punch in the four-number code and grab the M4A5 inside. His hands moved with the unerring precision of much training as he inserted the 20-round magazine and racked the mechanism. Then he opened a second cabinet and tossed the weapon inside to Crosby. "Get to the redoubt in the center of the base. We'll deal with this. Whatever it is."

Running down the corridor leading to the command center, Warhol noted that most of the other emergency cabinets had been opened and the contents taken. Installing them had seemed like a joke eighteen months earlier when this facility had been built, but now they seemed to be important enough. Just what was happening that could cause this level of alert?

"Warhol. Get some men together, make up a team and head for the perimeter." The duty officer snapped the order out without looking around, his eyes glued on the screen in front of him.

Warhol saw the screen also and the sight made him stop dead. The display showed a monster, a huge one, that looked like a giant leopard. What was appalling was its head, or rather heads. The creature had seven of them, and ten horns. They weren't quite heads though, it was more as if there were seven faces on the same giant, hideously distorted skull with the horns sticking out between them. Warhol couldn’t estimate the thing's size, the display didn’t have a reference in shot that he could use to get an idea of scale but he guessed it was huge. It had to be to cause this level of chaos.

"What are you still doing here? Get down to the motor pool, there'll be troops down there for you. Move."

It took Warhol a few minutes to get to the motor pool and pick up the men there. Once again, the non-commissioned officers had saved the situation, they had already organized the motor pool staff into an emergency platoon and set it up in a defensive position. All he had to do was to take over and move them out towards the base perimeter. They even had the motor transport to hand, a selection of Humvees, trucks and a single experimental armored car equipped with a 57mm gun. He had no doubt that they would be needed, the barrage of gunfire from the south was a sure sign that this was no walk-over fight. Warhol did what every infantry officer had been expected to do since the invention of gunpowder, he drove to the sound of the guns.

Defense Perimeter, Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

"It's taken out Domino's Pizza!" The cry was almost drowned out by the roar of gunfire while the streams of tracer formed an almost-prefect cone centered on the great beast that towered over the trees.

"Who the hell cares. I preferred Cicis anyway." It was, perhaps, a sign of the times that the Coca-Cola delivery truck was camouflaged and had a .50 machine gun mounted above its cab. The delivery team had been caught up in the attack and were now doing their level best to make a worthwhile contribution to the volume of fire that was engulfing the Leopard Beast. The problem was, they hadn't had much ammunition to start with and they were now running desperately low. So was everybody else.

They'd achieved their first objective though, the hastily-mounted defense had drawn the Leopard Beast away from the family accommodation to the south of the base and given the dependents there a chance to escape into Fayetteville. Stung by the hail of gunfire, the Leopard Beast had made its way around to the south-eastern flank of the base and tried to break through. Once again, it had been met by a barrage of gunfire and driven back. Despite the tens of thousands of rounds that had been fired in its direction, it was still alive and showed no signs of being any less lethal than when it had first appeared.
Still, the gunfire was achieving something else. The streams of tracer were serving as perfect target markers for the aircraft that were heading in. The Leopard Beast had been driven into an area that was largely unoccupied and that had opened up a whole new range of possibilities. One of them was already being brought into play, the thump of heavy mortars was quickly followed by the eruption of feathered white clouds around the Beast. It screamed as the white phosphorus burned its way into its skin.

"Keep marking that target!" One of the junior officers had the presence of mind to scream out the order in case any journalists were around. After all everybody knew the U.S. Army only used white phosphorus to lay smoke screens and mark targets, that was their story and they were sticking to it.

The Leopard Beast screamed again and leapt forward, crashing into a small fuel dump on the outskirts of the mobility testing area. The HEMTT trucks lines up outside crumpled under the bear paws that served it as feet. The trucks exploded in balls of fire as they were crushed and, once again, the Leopard Beast was driven back, away from the base. This time, as it fled east, away from the flames, it ran into streams of fire from Bradley armored vehicles that had been moved up to flank its position. The 25mm sabot rounds did more damage than the rifle-caliber rounds fired so far and, for the first time, the Leopard Beast was badly enough hurt to dilute it's single-minded urge for destruction. Then, the Beast heard and saw a new threat.

The four A-45s had taken off a few minutes earlier, loaded with whatever the ground crews could find immediately available. There were more aircraft being bombed up back at the base and they would be carrying loads better suited to the battle being fought at Fort Bragg but time had been of the essence and it was better to get something over the battlefield now rather than wait for a perfect solution that might be too late. In any case, AH-64s were on their way in and the Beast would have to be distracted while the helicopters made their runs. Everybody remembered what had happened when unsupported helicopters had tried to fight harpies in the skies over Iraq. The Leopard Beast didn't appear capable of flying but, when faced with a seven-faced beast more than 200 feet tall, nobody was going to take the chance. So, the A-45s started their bomb runs, aiming to distract the beast. Of course, if they hurt it in the process, the pilots wouldn't mind in the slightest.

"We could sure use one of them Mujs and a vee-bed right now." The speaker was a veteran of the Battle of Hit and well remembered the effects of explosive-packed pick-up trucks driven into the center of a mass of Baldricks. The U.S. Army didn’t like to admit it but the suicide bomb-trucks might well have been the factor that had turned the tide in that particular battle. The way the Leopard Beast kept shrugging off the storm of fire being aimed at it suggested they would be needed to turn the tide again. Then, the soldier got his wish for the ground around the beats erupted into a rolling thunder of explosions. The four A-45s had streaked overhead, each releasing four fin-retarded Mark 82 bombs. Sixteen five hundred pounders, even when delivered with less-than-optimal accuracy, were something that the Leopard Beast found distinctly terrifying.

To the watching troops, the fact that the beast was seriously hurt at last was thankfully apparent. Great areas of its flanks were now torn open, dripping silver blood as it staggered from the blast of the bombs. They saw it stagger again as red lines flashed across the battlefield, an Abrams tank had appeared and was firing sabot rounds at the Beast. That was all the tank crew had, high explosive, HEAT and HEAD rounds were completely unavailable, their supplies limited and the forces in Hell having top priority for any that were around. The crew were firing what they had, carefully, precisely, deadly accurately. They'd picked one of the faces of the Beast and were pumping round after round into it. The repeated impacts were having their effect, the chosen face was quickly losing its identity as the long bolts of depleted uranium crushed its features.

The Leopard Beast was being hurt and it know it. It slumped back on its hindquarters, waving its paws in front of its grotesquely misshapen head, trying to fend off the bolts that kept slamming into it. The posture was achingly reminiscent of a kitten playing with a ball of wool but the sight didn’t decrease the volume of fire that was still being poured into it. The tank ceased fire, its partly-loaded magazine empty but its place was taken by the first of the AH-64s. This one had been loaded with some time-expired Hellfire missiles that had been found at the back of a supply dump. Two of the eight failed to fire completely, one exploded shortly after launch, lashing the front of the helicopter with fragments while two more failed to guide and went off into the darkness to land somewhere kilometers away. The three remaining missiles scored direct hits on the Beast and it went down.

Even so, the battered and bullet-peppered Leopard Beast was still alive. It had no taste to continue this fight anymore, all it wanted was out, an end, away from the humans who wished its death so devoutly. Racked with pain from its injuries, it dragged itself along the ground, its mind forming the image of the portal that would take it to the sanctuary it needed so desperately. The problem was that generating the portal needed its concentration and the beast's limited intellect wasn't capable of both forming its portal and absorbing the shattering pain of its injuries. Dimly, its mind registered more crashes and the searing pain of shaped charges burning their way into its body. Slowly, reluctantly, the Leopard Beast gave up the battle to survive.

Scrubland, Outside The Defense Perimeter, Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

Warhol rubbed his eyes. They were gritty, he could feel the residues of burned powder under the lids and he wondered just how many rounds he'd fired into the Beast the night before. Ahead of him, the troops were lining up to be pictured beside the massive body that was stretched out on the ground. Just how much did that damned thing weigh he thought as the crew of a Bradley were pictured with their vehicle beside one of its paws. Could a thing like that actually exist? And if it did, what else was there in Heaven waiting to descend on Earth. The Leopard Beast had taken most of the resources of Fort Bragg to kill and it had come precious close to breaking in and destroying the scientific resources of the DIMO(N) center here.

"Impressive isn't it." Beside him, Doctor Crosby was also looking at the corpse of the Beast.

"It's just big, that's all. We can kill them, just a matter of learning how." Warhol's mind had trouble forming the words.

"I hope so. I think we'll see more of them in due course."