The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[Gil Hamilton]

You could do it with a hydraulic cylinder anchored to the ground. It can apply great force to push a heavy object through the portal against resistance (thus making up the gravitational potential energy difference) until it's all the way through, at which point it falls like a stone. If they can open portals at will with pinpoint accuracy, this could potentially eliminate the need for bombers. You could run the equivalent of bomber sorties by simply lining up racks of ordnance on a portal-based delivery station and using hydraulics or some kind of sled launcher system to force the bombs through the portals.

Hydraulics might be safer than the high-speed sled launcher. It could be messy if the sudden sharp force gradient at the portal from a large potential energy increase triggers the bomb somehow. Subjectively, it would feel like hitting a wall.

This is certainly a thought, but the idea that I might explore is using regions of significantly higher potential energy (say, near the top of a mountain) and using it to attack places of lower PE, using the portal to give the object kinetic energy without the bother of it having to fall between the intervening space.

For example, Denver is 1609 meters above sealevel, on average. Moscow has an altitude of 179 meters above sea level. Due to path independence, regardless of whether or not you route it through Hell or do it directly, an object gone from Denver to Moscow is going to gain roughly 14 kJ/kg. That's pretty significant. It means that you can do grevious harm to a location by simply pushing a boulder through the portal and also means that you are going to have to be careful if you want to peacibly travel via portal between areas of differing altitudes (and not be a missile).

Unless, of course, Hell has weird physics with their gravitational fields in addition to everything else weird about it.

[Darth Wong]

A hydrozoan organism the size of several hundred kilometers could, in my view, survive a single nuclear hit even if part of it's body would be vapourized. A below-100 kiloton airburst would not generate enough overpressure to really destroy anything outside of a several kilometer wide gap. The hydrozoa would simply have it's body broken but as it has no vital organs or anything, it would survive.

Sure, if it's sufficiently decentralized. It might be like a giant sentient algae patch with a big gaping hole torn in it.

Though I don't object to it being edited out, I thought colonial organism of such size could feasibly do it based on the scale limits of nuclear explosions and teh common yields of nuclear devices of the human arsenal.

Do what? Survive? Yes, if it's like The Blob or something. So you kill 10% of it; the other 90% goes on because it's a loosely associated hive or decentralized organism of some sort. But the post I initially responded to indicated that it actually benefited from this event, which seems completely ridiculous.

[Darth Wong]

This is certainly a thought, but the idea that I might explore is using regions of significantly higher potential energy (say, near the top of a mountain) and using it to attack places of lower PE, using the portal to give the object kinetic energy without the bother of it having to fall between the intervening space.

Yes, that would be easier. I would just prefer to also have a mechanical way of doing it, so that I am not forced to use higher ground. There's also the possibility that all of Heaven exists at a very high PE level, which means we need to work out a way of pushing ordnance past a large PE gradient.

[K. A. Pital]

Sure, if it's sufficiently decentralized. It might be like a giant sentient algae patch with a big gaping hole torn in it.

That's what I envisioned I didn't flunk school biology - any being with exo- or internal skeleton and a central nervous system would be utterly killed even by a small nuclear blast.

But the post I initially responded to indicated that it actually benefited from this event, which seems completely ridiculous.

The burst of light in an otherwise constantly dim place triggered rapid cell multiplication, which made the being grow faster. This is definetely not impossible. I've read some biology papers on hydrozoa-plant symbionts that were answering to light bursts. It's also possible for an otherworldly being to consume radiation and respond with growth towards an emission of radiation.

The poster did a piss poor job of presenting my idea. Beings like the Leopard beast or anything with a CNS are dead the moment a large enough bomb falls.

Re: the description of event in question:

The blast took out a large part of it breaking the body, but the two portions are now growing at a greater rate and both seem to be relatively unfazed.

Well, here's the outcome. A week passed, and now this organism, or should I say - many organisms? - are far larger than they were initially. Apparently, the energy of a nuclear explosion feeds it's cells. Quite possibly it is somewhat similar to the process of photosynthesis... we do not know fully, but it's clear that beyond the immediate blast zone and the zone where the pressure was crushing it's cells, the radiation and light basically prompted more growth. More than that, it is now enroaching on the shores. We don't know, but it might have a main body hidden somewhere very deep under the sea. The size of that is hard to guess, but it might be extremely large.

Nothing more.

[Darth Wong]

The burst of light in an otherwise constantly dim place triggered rapid cell multiplication, which made the being grow faster. This is definetely not impossible. I've read some biology papers on hydrozoa-plant symbionts that were answering to light bursts. It's also possible for an otherworldly being to consume radiation and respond with growth towards an emission of radiation.

Dude, there is no way that's going to come anywhere close to compensating for the huge hole torn in the creature by a nuke blast. The creature will not net-benefit from this. You'll just get a creature with a huge hole torn in it, and some temporary slight cell growth acceleration around the ragged edge of that hole, amidst the heavily radiation-damaged tissues.

[Darth Wong]

Re: the description of event in question:

The blast took out a large part of it breaking the body, but the two portions are now growing at a greater rate and both seem to be relatively unfazed.

Well, here's the outcome. A week passed, and now this organism, or should I say - many organisms? - are far larger than they were initially. Apparently, the energy of a nuclear explosion feeds it's cells. Quite possibly it is somewhat similar to the process of photosynthesis... we do not know fully, but it's clear that beyond the immediate blast zone and the zone where the pressure was crushing it's cells, the radiation and light basically prompted more growth. More than that, it is now enroaching on the shores. We don't know, but it might have a main body hidden somewhere very deep under the sea. The size of that is hard to guess, but it might be extremely large.

Nothing more.

Water is effectively opaque to light at significant distance. How would the light burst make the entire creature grow in such a manner as to more than compensate for the massive destruction?

My body grows cells more rapidly around a wound too; it does not mean that a gunshot wound is a net benefit for me.

[K. A. Pital]

Dude, there is no way that's going to come anywhere close to compensating for the huge hole torn in the creature by a nuke blast.

It just triggered growth, changing the creature's environment.

The creature will not net-benefit from this. You'll just get a creature with a huge hole torn in it, and some temporary slight cell growth acceleration around the ragged edge of that hole, amidst the heavily radiation-damaged tissues.

I presumed that the action actually prompted it's nervous system to initiate large-scale cell multiplication in all of it's body, thus giving - not immediately, of course, but in a week or so - extensive growth. I never said it's unkillable either, just that the humans were not willing to expend lots of nuclear ordnance in ground and waterbursts to kill it, causing lots of fallout on Hell's north shore.

Water is effectively opaque to light at significant distance. How would the light burst make the entire creature grow in such a manner as to more than compensate for the massive destruction?

It was floating above water and moving ashore; a large part of it's cells were outside of water.

My body grows cells more rapidly around a wound too; it does not mean that a gunshot wound is a net benefit for me.

Of course not. Like I said, my presumption was that this change of environment triggered massive cell division in the entire organism. I'm now not exactly sure if this is possible, but I think it's more possible for a colonial organism than for a being with advanced CNS.

[Darth Wong]

I presumed that the action actually prompted it's nervous system to initiate large-scale cell multiplication in all of it's body, thus giving - not immediately, of course, but in a week or so - extensive growth.

From what? If it's just feeding on nutrient-rich water to fuel its growth, why wasn't it growing like this before?

[Gil Hamilton]

Yes, that would be easier. I would just prefer to also have a mechanical way of doing it, so that I am not forced to use higher ground. There's also the possibility that all of Heaven exists at a very high PE level, which means we need to work out a way of pushing ordnance past a large PE gradient.

I don't know. Hell is reasonably accessible by conventional means and there are at least parts of Hell that are similar enough to Heaven that Baldricks can simply walk through the portal back and forth. If Heaven were significantly "uphill", so to speak, that would be a painful experience for Baldricks going in either direction, even if it would be entertaining to see Angels splattered like bugs against the far back wall of the chamber that the Heavengate was in.

It's kind of like the argument for solar power. Solar power would be worthless if it weren't for the fact that sunlight is freely available. We've already have military bases and cities at high altitudes.

Both methods have advantages to them, without a doubt. Particularly if the falling effect of the ordinance you are chucking is insignificant to the effect of the weapon, so using a mechanical method is just as well. Really, you pay the piper either way, you are either spending the energy to transport the objects to a high altitude or you are spending the energy in your hydraulics to push the bomb through. I think the decider would be how fragile the package is. Getting pressed through a portal by a piston might inadvertantly crush whatever you are sending.

[Darth Wong]

Of course not. Like I said, my presumption was that this change of environment triggered massive cell division in the entire organism. I'm now not exactly sure if this is possible, but I think it's more possible for a colonial organism than for a being with advanced CNS.

The entire organism will be fighting against mutation and radioactive fallout ingestion. It will be severely diseased, and I'm not sure what you mean by a change of environment; the effect of the nuke blast is temporary. The light burst is obviously temporary, and the heat input is surprisingly little compared to the enormous heat sink of a large body of water. In terms of heat and light, the environment rapidly goes back to normal. There should be less to feed on since so many prey organisms would have been killed in the blast as well, and populations will take time to recover. I don't see how the environment changes in any long-term way which would be conducive to rapid growth.

[K. A. Pital]

From what? If it's just feeding on nutrient-rich water to fuel its growth, why wasn't it growing like this before?

Well basically, my idea was that the dimension it came from had an environment in which the being received intense radiation doses as signals for rapid growth. Basically, the Hell environment put it into a dormant state, and the nuclear blast by the humans initiated growth by sending impulses similar to it's native environment to it's nervous system. I guess that is the best explanation I can offer. I don't think it terribly butchers science either.

The entire organism will be fighting against mutation and radioactive fallout ingestion. It will be severely diseased, and I'm not sure what you mean by a change of environment; the effect of the nuke blast is temporary. The light burst is obviously temporary, and the heat input is surprisingly little compared to the enormous heat sink of a large body of water. In terms of heat and light, the environment rapidly goes back to normal. There should be less to feed on since so many prey organisms would have been killed in the blast as well, and populations will take time to recover. I don't see how the environment changes in any long-term way which would be conducive to rapid growth.

I am not sure what you mean by feeding, since the Hell environment as I gathered supplied energy to being's bodies for rapid regeneration, hence why no need to feed for the Hell populations. I'm not sure the hydrozoa is predatorial either.

Yes, the light burst is temporary *puts head down in shame* I needed some sort of trigger for a colonial organism to grow more rapidly, and it also had to be connected with humans using weapons. I guess that's flunking a bit. But I'm not really holding that segment as some sort of "canonical truth", I said Stuart might change stuff at will.

[Darth Wong]

From what? If it's just feeding on nutrient-rich water to fuel its growth, why wasn't it growing like this before?

Well basically, my idea was that the dimension it came from had an environment in which the being received intense radiation doses as signals for rapid growth. Basically, the Hell environment put it into a dormant state, and the nuclear blast by the humans initiated growth by sending impulses similar to it's native environment to it's nervous system. I guess that is the best explanation I can offer. I don't think it terribly butchers science either.

Well, apart from the idea that ionizing radiation does anything to organic tissues other than to fuck them up. But why, if the organism is viable at larger sizes, would it voluntarily stop growing even in the presence of plentiful nutrients, while waiting for a radiation signal which signals it to start growing again rather than mutating its cells?

[K. A. Pital]

Well, apart from the idea that ionizing radiation does anything to organic tissues other than to fuck them up.

Yes, that's correct. But what if, say, the dimension it came from had a significantly higher background radiation, thus making high-radiation environment (like VA belts) natural for the being? I know that radiation over the background level is prompting cell death and a barrier to division, but what if the being was actually capable of taking much higher radiation doses than most organic beings on Earth?

But why, if the organism is viable at larger sizes, would it voluntarily stop growing even in the presence of plentiful nutrients, while waiting for a radiation signal which signals it to start growing again rather than mutating its cells?

Hmm... *thinks*

Well from what I know from radiobiology, the effects of ionizing radiation are coming in two types, determined and stochastic. The former only initiate after receiving some particular amount of radiation, while the latter can be initiated by arbitrary amount, merely by the fact of radiation. If the growth is determined under a certain intake, the being would not grow unless it received such an amount.

Another explanation would be an evolutionary pressure that caused it to go dormant in absence of radiation bursts, for example, conserving energy which is required for growth.

[Darth Wong]

I am not sure what you mean by feeding, since the Hell environment as I gathered supplied energy to being's bodies for rapid regeneration, hence why no need to feed for the Hell populations. I'm not sure the hydrozoa is predatorial either.

Fair enough. The Hell environment does seem to provide mysterious sources of free energy. Which begs the question of why it was not growing before; organic creatures which can continue growing and remaining viable do not voluntarily stop growing when the conditions are there to permit growth.

Yes, the light burst is temporary *puts head down in shame* I needed some sort of trigger for a colonial organism to grow more rapidly, and it also had to be connected with humans using weapons. I guess that's flunking a bit. But I'm not really holding that segment as some sort of "canonical truth", I said Stuart might change stuff at will.

Rather than serving as a "trigger" for rapid healthy growth, perhaps one might dip in the well-worn but also well-loved magic trick bag of 1950s science fiction, and have the radiation mutate parts of the creature. Those parts begin to rapidly multiply like cancer cells, but this is Hell, so the creature doesn't die the way a cancerous creature should. It is kept alive by whatever keeps creatures alive in Hell, but it becomes even more misshapen and horrifying, with mutated sections which sprout into grotesque new features.

I actually kind of like that idea.

[K. A. Pital]

Rather than serving as a "trigger" for rapid growth, perhaps one might dip in the well-worn but also well-loved magic trick bag of 1950s science fiction, and have the radiation mutate parts of the creature. Those parts begin to rapidly multiply like cancer cells, but this is Hell, so the creature doesn't die the way a cancerous creature should. It is kept alive by whatever keeps creatures alive in Hell, but it becomes even more misshapen and horrifying, with mutated sections which sprout into grotesque new features.

I actually kind of like that idea.

Yeah, the cancer idea is nice. Considering the properties of Hell, I imagine cancerous cells having a field day in creating real ugly "symbionts" where cancerous tissue overcomes normal tissue but does not cause death. I don't think it would be viable in any advanced CNS beings, but lower organics are in.

[Academia Nut]

As a note on this discussion about the nuking of the Leviathan, there is real world precedent for simple organisms using ionizing radiation as an energy source. While the initial nuke blast would have obviously overwhelmed any capacity to process the energy, the fallout, especially since the atmosphere of Hell is evidently not 'self-cleansing', could have actually helped the creature rather than hurt it. Something to consider anyway.

[Darth Wong]

As a note on this discussion about the nuking of the Leviathan, there is real world precedent for simple organisms using ionizing radiation as an energy source. While the initial nuke blast would have obviously overwhelmed any capacity to process the energy, the fallout, especially since the atmosphere of Hell is evidently not 'self-cleansing', could have actually helped the creature rather than hurt it. Something to consider anyway.

Bacteria do the same thing. Extremely simple organisms can mutate and ... just keep carrying on. Cancer is, after all, a multi-cellular phenomenon; a single-celled organism cannot get cancer. Very simple multi-cellular organisms are also more resistant (insects for example), in part because they have less stuff to go wrong. But a large organism is different; if you mutate part of it, then parts of it are genetically incompatible with other parts, and that's bound to cause problems, even if it doesn't have any "vital organs" per se.

[K. A. Pital]

That's something I had in mind when envisioning the L., an environment with higher background radiation and thus higher exposure; when shifted elsewhere stopped receiving the necessary doses and growth slowed down. The only problem is the temporary effect of a blast, but the fallout does offer some solution.

But a large organism is different; if you mutate part of it, then parts of it are genetically incompatible with other parts, and that's bound to cause problems, even if it doesn't have any "vital organs" per se.

In primitive organisms, ionizing radiation can often produce a stress response which can be manifested in various effects.

[Darth Wong]

Cancer cells also have precedent for growing much more rapidly than normal cells, and also for doing remarkable things like multiplying anaerobically even inside a normally aerobic organism (such as a human body).

That would be quite an "oh shit" moment: "Sir, the creature was running into limits because it was consuming all of the oxygen in the water, creating a dead zone around itself. That's why it wasn't growing. But parts of it have mutated to become anaerobic. These parts can multiply even without oxygen in the water."

[K. A. Pital]

Hmm... that's an elegant solution. Might just have it written in, after all my story is subject to constant modification.

[Academia Nut]

From the description of the Leviathan, especially the fact that they needed a Nephilim to control it, perhaps it was originally no more dangerous than an algal bloom where it came from, but it had the unfortunate property of acting like some sort of psychic signal booster that led to exploitation and experimentation by the denizens of Heaven and Hell. Generations of breeding eventually left it radically altered from its original form, creating a telekinetically propelled amphibious seige engine and weapon of mass destruction that is activated and guided by the intelligence of a psychic (either nephilim or angel or demon) that is integrated into it. Without that guiding intelligence it just sort of sits there. When the nuke went off it damaged the genome, awakening more ancient pathways that had previously been bred out, triggering a bloom. Part of it could be cancerous multiplication, the other part could be radiotrophic feeding off the fallout. Especially since anaerobic respiration is something like sixteen times less efficient than aerobic respiration so some form of additional energy would be required.

[Darth Wong]

From the description of the Leviathan, especially the fact that they needed a Nephilim to control it, perhaps it was originally no more dangerous than an algal bloom where it came from, but it had the unfortunate property of acting like some sort of psychic signal booster that led to exploitation and experimentation by the denizens of Heaven and Hell. Generations of breeding eventually left it radically altered from its original form, creating a telekinetically propelled amphibious seige engine and weapon of mass destruction that is activated and guided by the intelligence of a psychic (either nephilim or angel or demon) that is integrated into it. Without that guiding intelligence it just sort of sits there. When the nuke went off it damaged the genome, awakening more ancient pathways that had previously been bred out, triggering a bloom. Part of it could be cancerous multiplication, the other part could be radiotrophic feeding off the fallout. Especially since anaerobic respiration is something like sixteen times less efficient than aerobic respiration so some form of additional energy would be required.

Well, that's the convenient thing about Hell: there is a ubiquitous source of energy there. It's how humans can heal wounds quickly enough to see it happening in real-time.

[GrayAnderson]

I still am not convinced that it's altitude that's the factor per se. Gravity at the location would make sense, as would air pressure (I know that the differences do add up)...and besides, I do think that obscene air pollution not emerging in Delaware or over the Bahamas would need an explanation.

[Darth Wong]

I still am not convinced that it's altitude that's the factor per se. Gravity at the location would make sense, as would air pressure (I know that the differences do add up)...and besides, I do think that obscene air pollution not emerging in Delaware or over the Bahamas would need an explanation.

It doesn't matter whether you're convinced. It is necessary to adopt some explanation which accounts for gravitational potential energy, otherwise the whole system violates the first law of thermodynamics and can be used as an infinite energy generator.

[Buritot]

I don't know who mentioned it, but how did you get the idea that the evironment of hell provides the regenerating properties for the organisms within? AFAIR only hellspawn humans were capable of regeneration and living without food, since they were sapping up ambient energy to sustain their energy losses. Baldricks on the other hand consumed food on multiple instances and were shown to get hungry (and eventually die) when they didn't get their hand on some delicious humans.

Which brings me to another point, abortion. Tucker (?) was obviously appalled when he saw the cart full of fetuses (feti?) and the president promptly shut the lid on that information for the good of morale and public consciousness. With the Gate of Gaff under human control and the humans being respawned it will be hard to keep that lid shut. Will it still be done since the war isn't over yet? I'm suspecting it will still take some time before we spill blood on the Pearly Gates - is it palatable to keep that a secret? And yes, I can imagine the guilt and depression that would follow its reveal. and the political upheaval.

On the potential energy side, I doubt that would suffice as an explanation. If I remember correctly hell had gravity of 0.9g (don't ask me where it was mentioned, I just remember it), maybe that has an effect on the energy requirements?
Futhermore I'm still shaky on the atmospheric part of portals. I thought of opening a portal inbetween pressure chambers to see if gaseous matter could pass though portals at all. If it does the pressure needed would be a good way to measure the energy gradients. Repeating that procedure under varying circumstance such as altitude (or magnetic influences, or gravitational variations) would provide valuable data. Also the chunking rocks think to see at what angles the portals can be crossed and this way the humans would also find out about the blunt edge of portals instead of their presumed razor sharpness.