Stormtrooper vs. Klingon Warrior

[Master of Ossus]

No, they're thieves. The circus is in Germany. The army of ninjas was in India. They were thieves working for the woman known as Octopussy.

[Isolder74]

No, they're thieves. The circus is in Germany. The army of ninjas was in India. They were thieves working for the woman known as Octopussy.

oh those guys, i thought you were talking about the Guys in the fight at the end. Most of them were from the circus

[Yuri]

Ewoks beat a few Stormtroopers thus a bigger, menacing Klingon must be able to squash an Ewok. Therefore all stormtroopers are doomed when fighting a Klingon. What's this logic called again?

I've seen many stormtroopers taken by surprise and they usually go down without a struggle, BECAUSE THEY SUCK at fighting. Klingons usually, if not always, put up one hell of a struggle. Plus they're anatomically designed for combat (back up organs, etc.) Maybe they could beat a TOS Klingon, but definately not a TNG Klingon.

[His Divine Shadow]

Where is it said that stormies are bad fighters?
I believe LT_ryguy on SB said something about one stormie beating up several people at once somewhere in a brawl.

[Yuri]

Where is it said that stormies are bad fighters?
I believe LT_ryguy on SB said something about one stormie beating up several people at once somewhere in a brawl.

In the original trilogy, almost every single stormie that gets killed is taken by surprise and goes down very easily. A stormie, beating people up in a brawl? Are you sure it wasn't some kind of more elite soldier?

[Eleas]

(DGG)
"Eleas, you've obviously missed the thread on the pure SW boards, "Are stormtroopers clones?" or something to that jist."

Ok, I suppose I did. I'll throw myself into that.

"Until we have evidence disprovign the evidence in that thread, stormtroopers areclones, end of discussion. So it can be said that they are highly trained enough in hand-to-hand to wield the force pike as such."

Why? Why does their training have to automatically incorporate force pikes just because they're clones?

[Vympel]

Yuri what are you talking about:

"In the original trilogy, almost every single stormie that gets killed is taken by surprise and goes down very easily. A stormie, beating people up in a brawl? Are you sure it wasn't some kind of more elite soldier?"

You're among a lot of warsies on this forum- and they will call you out on bullshit like this. What stormies, in what scenes, were taken by surprise, and how many incidents of this are there in the OT? Additionally, what is taken down 'easy' compared to being taken down 'hard'. Dead is dead.

I've seen stormies

1: get shot
2: get thrown about by a Wookie (I'd really like to see a Klingon stand up to that)
3: small numbers get rushed by many Ewoks wielding clubs (and I'd like to see a Kligon take a stone age arrow with their conspicuous lack of armor- you can see in the opening scenes that the arrows are having no effect)- in the same battle we see a stormie tossing aside an Ewok easily- it clearly was not going all the Ewoks way. And as I said before, the Rebels would definitely not have won that fight if Chewie hadn't capture the AT-ST.

[starfury]

I've seen many stormtroopers taken by surprise and they usually go down without a struggle, BECAUSE THEY SUCK at fighting. Klingons usually, if not always, put up one hell of a struggle. Plus they're anatomically designed for combat (back up organs, etc.) Maybe they could beat a TOS Klingon, but definately not a TNG Klingon.

TNG klingons are morons who will ripped apart by the a Roman Legion, designed for combat LOL, the Space marines of Warhammar 40k are designed for combat.

[Vympel]

"I've seen many stormtroopers taken by surprise and they usually go down without a struggle, BECAUSE THEY SUCK at fighting. Klingons usually, if not always, put up one hell of a struggle. Plus they're anatomically designed for combat (back up organs, etc.) Maybe they could beat a TOS Klingon, but definately not a TNG Klingon"

'many stormtroopers taken by surprise'


WHERE GODDAMIT?! In what scenes, and HOW MANY TIMES. Jeezus we have a bunch of stormtroopers getting ambushed by Ewoks in ROTJ, two incidents- the two stormies sent flying by Tarzan-esque Ewoks (who proceeded to beat them senseless with clubs) and the bunch of stormtroopers caught up in a firefight with Han/ Leia and other commandos near the bunker getting taken from behind.

Its not that hard to post your source.

How does this qualify as 'many' times. IIRC, these are the only incidents.

We have also seen stormies

- clean up the Tantive IV
- given a testimony to precision by Obi-Wan Kenobi, who should know, he's commanded them (Clonetroopers and Stormtroopers are the same, just different armor- Lucas said unequivocally 'stormtroopers are clones')
- clean up Echo Base
- sniping in ROTJ

The EU records also gives testimony to the quality of stormtroopers, at least the books I have read (Timothy Zahn's trilogy, Kevin J Anderson's trilogy- i.e. Carida).

For the record, I think a Klingon in this thread's situation would win as well, after all a stormtrooper is just a trained human clone; Klingons are more hardy and are superior hand-to-hand fighters. There's no evidence to assume that stormtroopers are trained with melee weapons- in Attack of the Clones we see clonetroopers practicing hand-to-hand on Kamino but forcepikes is a stretch, Eleas is right.

But I am sick and tired of stormies getting badmouthed for Endor. The balance of evidence shows that they are much better than the critics would have people believe. And for the purposes of this board, stormtroopers with armor and carbines would kick the crap out of those screaming morons (klingons) with disruptors and badly designed melee weapons in a meaningful fight.

PS ALWAYS FRIGGING POST YOUR SOURCE. QUALIFY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. It's really frustrating otherwise.

[Vympel]

Dam no edit.

Before anyone says so, yes the EU stormtroopers are not clones but its a minor point- the quality of their training is the point- it could easily be reconciled by saying that stormtrooper ordinary humans were trained to the same standard as the clones (Carida is a very harsh environment and is similar to the Sardukar's planet in Dune).

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I've seen many stormtroopers taken by surprise and they usually go down without a struggle, BECAUSE THEY SUCK at fighting. Klingons usually, if not always, put up one hell of a struggle. Plus they're anatomically designed for combat (back up organs, etc.) Maybe they could beat a TOS Klingon, but definately not a TNG Klingon.

Provide an example.


Oh, and you've posted no proof, ignored or posts, etc. CONCESSION ACCEPTED

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Well since everyones refuted Yuris posts to death, I'll try to cover my own butt here.

There is no evidence that stormies are trained in armed melee combat (with force pikes, or whatever). But its fair to assume they're trained with melee weapons to some degree, after all, stormies probably carry a vibro-knife with them just in case their gun is disabled. Granted a vibro-knife isn't a force pike, but I'm sure stormies can use the pikes as big knives in a pinch.

This is all of course assumption, but educated ones. But I don't see why it would be hard to stab a charging Klingon with a two meter long spear! Then again, I've never killed somebody with a spear, so your guess is as good s mine .

[Next of Kin]

By Yuri:

I've seen many stormtroopers taken by surprise and they usually go down without a struggle, BECAUSE THEY SUCK at fighting.

I love it people have to resort "many" or "lots". You don't have any numbers to back up your claim do you?

Klingons usually, if not always, put up one hell of a struggle.

When? Where? With whom?

Plus they're anatomically designed for combat (back up organs, etc.) Maybe they could beat a TOS Klingon, but definately not a TNG Klingon.

LOL! Why because they have big bony heads in TNG! More generalizations!

[Master of Ossus]

Well since everyones refuted Yuris posts to death, I'll try to cover my own butt here.

Good idea.

There is no evidence that stormies are trained in armed melee combat (with force pikes, or whatever). But its fair to assume they're trained with melee weapons to some degree, after all, stormies probably carry a vibro-knife with them just in case their gun is disabled. Granted a vibro-knife isn't a force pike, but I'm sure stormies can use the pikes as big knives in a pinch.

Sure there is evidence of that. There is also evidence that stormtroopers carry vibroblades. In Tales.... a young woman was saved from the sarlaac by a stormtrooper who threw a vibroblade into its tentacle. That requires considerable skill with a knife, if I do say so myself, and it demonstrates that stormtroopers carry such weapons. In addition, there is a reference to it in Soldier for the Empire, and in EGWT it is implied that stormtroopers are sometimes engaged in melee combat during the section in melee weapons (granted, it also says that they lost a few battles to Rebel forces using such weapons, but it shows that they did fight in close quarters, from time to time).

This is all of course assumption, but educated ones. But I don't see why it would be hard to stab a charging Klingon with a two meter long spear! Then again, I've never killed somebody with a spear, so your guess is as good s mine .

I don't see why it would be difficult, either.

[Isolder74]

The Spear or Pike is on the easiest melee weapons to use. In general the wielder does not need to worry about harming himself since the blade is at the end of a long pole. A good rod also allows the user to parry sword attacks without fear of losing their weapon due to being cut. It also provides the wielder a very long reach.

On the other hand, the Klingon weapons are designed for extreamly close combat. The longest reach of the Bath'let is about 1/2 a meter. It seems that if a Klingon can't smell his opponent then he can't find. They would see the Stormtrooper with his Force Pike as dishonorable and would refuse to fight him until he picks a more honorable weapon. thats my 2-bits

[Master of Ossus]

Incidentally, the Bat'leth is a TERRIBLE weapon. For humans, it uses incorrect muscles that are fairly weak, although that is not necessarily true for Klingons. In any case, its blade is not as sharp as a vibroblade is when active, and those little protrusions it has (the little blades that stick out from the main one) are fragile and do not appear to be useful for anything other than fighting another bat'leth armed opponent (this is confirmed by the use of the bat'leth as a purely slashing weapon by Klingons attacking station security in WotW). The bat'leth is very heavy for no reason, and offers minimal range benefits over the use of a knife or similar. A quarterstaff offers advantages in simplicity of manufacture, range, durability (for ones made primarily of a relatively strong metal or ceramic), and power. Halberds offer massive advantages over the bat'leth in nearly every aspect except for weight and a negligable disadvantage in concealability.

The bat'leth is of little more use than a short sword, and a long sword is a far better weapon, overall.

[Stravo]

Incidentally, the Bat'leth is a TERRIBLE weapon. For humans, it uses incorrect muscles that are fairly weak, although that is not necessarily true for Klingons. In any case, its blade is not as sharp as a vibroblade is when active, and those little protrusions it has (the little blades that stick out from the main one) are fragile and do not appear to be useful for anything other than fighting another bat'leth armed opponent (this is confirmed by the use of the bat'leth as a purely slashing weapon by Klingons attacking station security in WotW). The bat'leth is very heavy for no reason, and offers minimal range benefits over the use of a knife or similar. A quarterstaff offers advantages in simplicity of manufacture, range, durability (for ones made primarily of a relatively strong metal or ceramic), and power. Halberds offer massive advantages over the bat'leth in nearly every aspect except for weight and a negligable disadvantage in concealability.

The bat'leth is of little more use than a short sword, and a long sword is a far better weapon, overall.

Ahhhh...but Master of Ossus...the Bat'leth does look cool....

[Master of Ossus]

Yes, but you can make cool looking swords and stuff, too. You're right, though. It does look cooler than any quarterstaff I have seen, with the possible exception of the BGII "Staff of Ryn."

[Isolder74]

Yes, but you can make cool looking swords and stuff, too. You're right, though. It does look cooler than any quarterstaff I have seen, with the possible exception of the BGII "Staff of Ryn."

Yes, it is easy to make a Sword look cool! Seen Lord Of The Rings anyone? All of the weapons even the "simple" Daggers used by the hobbits are really cool looking.

[Next of Kin]

by Isolder74

Yes, it is easy to make a Sword look cool!

Add a couple of tassles, a few strategically placed gems, and cool looking hilt and presto! you have kick ass weapon!

[Isolder74]

by Isolder74

Yes, it is easy to make a Sword look cool!

Add a couple of tassles, a few strategically placed gems, and cool looking hilt and presto! you have kick ass weapon!

Exactally

[Darth Yoshi]

The Spear or Pike is on the easiest melee weapons to use. In general the wielder does not need to worry about harming himself since the blade is at the end of a long pole. A good rod also allows the user to parry sword attacks without fear of losing their weapon due to being cut. It also provides the wielder a very long reach.

On the other hand, the Klingon weapons are designed for extreamly close combat. The longest reach of the Bath'let is about 1/2 a meter. It seems that if a Klingon can't smell his opponent then he can't find. They would see the Stormtrooper with his Force Pike as dishonorable and would refuse to fight him until he picks a more honorable weapon. thats my 2-bits

At which point the stormtrooper, not concerned about the Klingon's misconceptions of honor, stabs him in the chest with the force pike.

[Xg74]

Well, the stormie would go to stab the klingon right, the kilingon could then take his bat'leth and swing it upwards deflecting the blow (and if he does it hard enough, he could potentially thrown the stormie off balance) and he could run in for the kill. However, the klingon could miss, could only knock the stormie back for a small period of time that isn't long enough, the stormie smacking the handle down on the klingons head, etc. The stormie would not "automatically" win because you people say so. It does depend on skill. Just because there is no canon evidence of an actual good klingon warrior does not mean there isn't one. Same for Stormtrooper melee combat weapon training, just because no evidence of how they train with melee weapons does not mean that they cannot wield a force pike. however, if you are not trained on something like a spear, it is extremely awkward, and would be most difficult to use for the first time.

I have been observing this board quite a bit now. And it seems that you do, for the most part, know your stuff. But, some things that you debate in this particular forum seemed biased automatically because this is a Star Wars site, and no actual real "scientific" evidence is ever given in those situations (although they are not many in number). If you guys have studied in real life martial arts, and know how to wield and fight with swords and weapons of all sorts you would know that it is really up to chance in the fight. The klingon would win sometimes, and the Stormtrooper would win sometimes as well. It does not matter if the Stormtrooper is faster, or if the Klingon is stronger, nor does weapon quality matter. it is up to who takes advantage of the moment in the fight.

A Bat'leth may look like a poorly designed weapon from our standpoint, but that is because we have never seen a "real" one, only the cheap crappy ones created for the shows. Maybe now, in "real" klingon life it is different than what you see. Maybe not.

One last thing, even though the Stormtrooper armour is "resistant" to KE energy, that energy could be transferred into the body of the Stormtrooper and cause damage to his body. The same principle exists in real life, say an M1A2 Abrams tank is being bombarded with 20mm KE rounds at 2000 feet per second and 3000 rounds per minute for 1 minute (resulting in 3000 rounds impacting the surface), while they won't actually penetrate the armour, the force of all those rounds will damage internal systems like optics and the like.

[starfury]

Yes, but you can make cool looking swords and stuff, too. You're right, though. It does look cooler than any quarterstaff I have seen, with the possible exception of the BGII "Staff of Ryn."

you mean like the sword of the witch-king of the LOTR, that is a awesome sword.[/quote]

[Master of Ossus]

I agree with some of what you said, Xg74. The Klingon warrior would win some of the time, stormtroopers would just win a lot more.

I know that KE can be transferred to a target without the armor failing. In fact, I have used this several times in debates before. The problem for the bat'leth wielding Klingon, though, is that whenever you take a weapon that is meant for stabbing or slashing and remove its ability to stab or slash, you remove virtually its entire ability to do damage. The bat'leth becomes little more than a baseball bat, except for the occasional blow to the joints of the armor. Note that the Klingon does not have the strength to force a stormtrooper to black out or lose consciousness by throwing him against a wall. The Klingon's only ability to harm a stormtrooper would be the strikes to joints in the armor, or blows to the head. Meanwhile, the stormtrooper could be using his weapon (which is lighter, sharper, and offers better reach), to strike the Klingon anywhere on his body and cause serious injuries. I have also shown that stormtroopers know quite well how to use vibroblades in combat. This implies that they are trained in at least rudimentary knife combat.

Among my other talents, I am a black belt in Tae Kwon Do. I understand melee combat, and I see no way that Klingon warriors could consistently win against stormtroopers who are protected so well from their weapons.

We treat the movies and television shows as if they were documentaries, here. That is part of suspension of disbelief. We cannot believe that a bat'leth is anything other than what is shown on TV.

"Just because there is no canon evidence of an actual good klingon warrior does not mean there isn't one." Okay, prove that there are better Klingon warriors than the ones we have seen on the show. Worf is one of the best--he was able to kill Gowron, who must be at least reasonably skilled or he would have been challenged earlier. Fact is, Worf sucks. The units that boarded DS9 moved like idiots. They ignored cover and used bat'leths against phaser-armed forces. They ignored potential tactics that they could have used if they moved as a group. Those forces should have been elite forces, as the Klingon Empire should have sent its best forces with the ships. You are trying to shift burden of proof by demanding we DISprove the existence of better warriors. You have not proven that they exist. In fact, you have provided no evidence that there are better warriors than the ones we have seen. Your point is invalid.

"It does not matter if the stormtrooper is faster, or if the Klingon is stronger, nor does weapon quality matter...." So, what you are saying is that weapons are irrelevent in combat? Is someone with just their fists going to be able to consistently defeat someone with a bayonet-equipped automatic rifle? Are you saying that it is not an advantage in combat to be strong or fast? You are clearly wrong on this point. While it is true that neither side would take no casualties, it is clear that with numerical parity stormtroopers would win. They have far more advantages, and better quality advantages, over the Klingons, whose strength would be nullified by the stormtrooper's armor.

Don't shift burden of proof, and don't fall back to the "we don't know" routine. It just doesn't cut it.