The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[K. A. Pital]

As for changes...

The nuclear burst is one of them.

Yeah, I gathered so, there'd been a mention in Pantheocide that humans did not yet use nuclear weapons anywhere and against anything, so continuity wise it's impossible regardless of whether a being could survive a nuclear blast or not, even if given the characteristics of the creature and the nuke, it most positively could. The only problem I'd see is that weapons other than nuclear and possibly some biological mutagen would not provoke the being into growing rapidly...

[Jim Starluck]

Idly, I'd like to make a request for something the humans do when (not if) they manage to open portals to Heaven.

Bring some SR-71 Blackbirds out of retirement for strategic reconnaissance. Since we can't move satellites overhead, they're the best alternative we've got. And I sincerely doubt Heaven has anything that could even touch them.

Might need a new paint job, though. Maybe blue and white, if the skies of Heaven are anything like myth has led us to believe. Would make an interesting contrast to the Hell camo.

[Ilya Muromets]

Well, look at that, I got cameo'd. As a researcher with the name of a Russian mythical figure no less--wonder what the other Russians in-verse have to say about that. Although, that was unexpected, given my busy high school teaching job and Masteral work preventing me from contributing to this discussion other than a few here and there comments.

This chapter also has an appearance of kitten, which is always a plus. I always found her one of the more interesting characters in this building trilogy.

What really grabs me, though, is the appearance of one of the Beasts of the Apocalypse. Looks like Yah-yah really is intent on having Revelations followed as literally as possible. However, this leads me to think that this gives more credence to the whole "Heavenly and Hellish creatures being artificially-created" theory other posters suggested before. Whether engineered to fit some shrooms-induced acid trip or having said acid trip being influenced by Micheal himself to fit some pre-engineered creatures doesn't really matter in my view. As far as I'm concerned, everything we see about Heavenly and Hellish creatures just seems too counter-intuitive in terms of natural evolution and development.

For one thing, the beast's appearance itself smacks of something engineered. It's just too asymmetrical, and most other points-of-reference we have (namely all the larger Earthly vertebrates) all have bilateral symmetry, even in horn distribution. Most other Heavenly and Hellish lifeforms mentioned also adhere to this. This beast, and the descriptions of the others, are not so cleanly symmetrical.

Another is the fact that this thing is some 200-feet high. I don't need to have a biology degree to know that anything land creature that massive would end up crushing itself under its own weight according to the laws of physics as we know them. Granted, there are new dimensions of physics being discovered in TSW, but on the whole I don't think those new discoveries have much bearing on the laws of physics which dictates that that thing should have turned itself into a pile of self-imploded flesh, organs, and bone. Which means that there has to have been some form of really extreme bio-engineering behind it just to get it working properly, and that's not taking into account whatever must have been done to make that thing anywhere near that durable.

[GrayAnderson]

I still am not convinced that it's altitude that's the factor per se. Gravity at the location would make sense, as would air pressure (I know that the differences do add up)...and besides, I do think that obscene air pollution not emerging in Delaware or over the Bahamas would need an explanation.

It doesn't matter whether you're convinced. It is necessary to adopt some explanation which accounts for gravitational potential energy, otherwise the whole system violates the first law of thermodynamics and can be used as an infinite energy generator.

Well, I agree that you need something to block up a perpetual motion engine (though arguably there have been more instances of physical laws being literally turned inside out than I can even get my mind around), but I think you'd need something to explain why going the other way there's not energy creation/release. Put another way, if the planes going into Hell at the Middle Eastern portal need energy to "jump" the barrier, then stuff coming out should get a "kick" as it goes through just as one needs to use a lot of energy (as you're building up potential energy), but when you go down the hill, you can coast (as you're releasing said energy).

I'll take it as a given that there's a barrier of some sort involved in going through the portal (Again, why don't we have pollution piling up left, right, and center at the portal mouths? This is a cheap explanation ["cheap" as in "doesn't need a lot of background stuff", not "randomly thrown together to patch a hole"]...going through takes energy, and it's limiting any osmosis-based atmospheric exchange as a result). We weren't exactly running a positive pressure anti-infection system on their mile-wide portal in the Middle East when they popped it open, after all.

Also, for the matter of the above, you've already shot thermodynamics to hell and back until you explain the ambient energy source in Hell that sustains and regenerates the dead. For crying out loud, you have burned skin regenerating...which unless I am quite well mistaken means that there is already a violation of the first law somewhere in there as matter is from all appearances being created.

Edit: And of course, the idea of an electric rail system hooked up to a strong geothermal generator comes to mind for working around the problem of shipping stuff "up".

[GrayAnderson]

For one thing, the beast's appearance itself smacks of something engineered. It's just too asymmetrical, and most other points-of-reference we have (namely all the larger Earthly vertebrates) all have bilateral symmetry, even in horn distribution. Most other Heavenly and Hellish lifeforms mentioned also adhere to this. This beast, and the descriptions of the others, are not so cleanly symmetrical.

Another is the fact that this thing is some 200-feet high. I don't need to have a biology degree to know that anything land creature that massive would end up crushing itself under its own weight according to the laws of physics as we know them. Granted, there are new dimensions of physics being discovered in TSW, but on the whole I don't think those new discoveries have much bearing on the laws of physics which dictates that that thing should have turned itself into a pile of self-imploded flesh, organs, and bone. Which means that there has to have been some form of really extreme bio-engineering behind it just to get it working properly, and that's not taking into account whatever must have been done to make that thing anywhere near that durable.

I'd be shocked if this wasn't a one-off engineering project that Michael had to scramble together. Honestly, I'd be looking at ways to reinforce the bones (diamonds or steel, perhaps? Just throwin' out ideas) so it could stand up. Another possibility is that there's lots of hollow space internally (or semi-hollow space) just to save on weight. And I'd also expect that it wasn't expected to last very long for just the reasons you mentioned...I think Michael is, to some extent, out of ammunition and throwing rocks, so to speak.

[K. A. Pital]

I would presume that this being, might not have come from any dimension among Heaven, Hell or Earth, but from somewhere else (it was also my soltuion for explaining the leviathan). Then again, they had plenty of time for biological engineering (even Hell did it to a limited extent).

They might have infected leopards with some otherworldly parasites that transformed the creature, or it might have been an otherworldly creature that has been made to look like a leopard by breeding. It's not exactly a leopard, remember.

As a researcher with the name of a Russian mythical figure no less--wonder what the other Russians in-verse have to say about that.

There are all sorts of freak names in Russia.

[Crayz9000]

Gigantism only works so far; I think they probably had to take some otherworldy enormous creature and find a way to give it the leopard spot gene.

[Buritot]

I just thought of another idea for the great beast. If you remember Euryale and her creation of a gigantic steed for Satan in form of a hydra I suppose there are quite a lot steps between a regular hydra and harpy. Hydra's couldn't fly, right? And I think it was mentioned that harpies were involved... Who is to say the side products and offshots of her genetic/eugenics program have been destroyed? After all the majority of Hell is still pretty much unexplored (from a human vantage point) and it would be realtively easy to hide Euryale's work in the lesser populated regions, maybe even uninhabitable ones. (It was meant to be surprise, after all.)

Belial may even know where that is. It's hard to punch a hole from Heaven to Hell, but it's possible. It wouldn't even need to be a large one - send Belial in with an overseer, let him instruct the beast with intel for where to attack by Michael-Lan and pull them back. The beast will do the rest.

As for the symmetry and hideousness of Leo - We don't have exactly the best physical description of it. It seems to me to be made of mainly smmetrical features - two front and two hind paws, the faces probably in itself symmetrical. You could
culture genetic defects by inbreeding to the state of symmetrical feature appearing in asymmetrical patterns, but such a creature couldn't survive without help due to the side effect of inbreeding, such as crippled organs and such.
As for its resemblance to a leopard - I'm not above parallel evolution. It wouldn't necessarily need to be derived from terran cats.

I suspect mightier angels and demons don't need to lock on a mind to establish a portal (Uriel, for example). And Leo was pretty mighty considering its size and taking into account that it presumably would have been able to open up an upstream portal befitting its body.

Furthermore - maybe it was in Satans elite guard (or whatever it was called), like the Guardians of the bridge over Styx (?) on the plane at Hell-Alpha.

[edit: typos, minor adjustments]

[Jamesfirecat]

Perhaps Michael influenced the prophet's hallucinations? Is it possible to talk someone into seeing something specific while high?

I think the angels have some telepathic (if you want to call it that) power to influence mental thoughts, though actually guiding around someone who's high as a weather satellite to something that specific is going to take a lot of doing.

It would be simpler just to alter the prophecies after the fact.

Both of you are over thinking this, Stuart has already pretty clearly explained how the relationship between the Book of Revelations and Heaven's Game plan works.

Book of Revelations is the resort of a bad cocaine and mushroom trip.

God however liked the sound of it and basically gave a "Sure Why Not" response to the entire thing http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... SureWhyNot and gave Orders to Micheal to make sure that when the end of days came, this was how Heaven did it.

Micheal didn't directly influence what his stoned up victum saw, or change was was written in the book of Revelations, instead he's simply looking for weapons heaven has at its disposal which fit the gudilines he's been working with. That was why two chapters ago he was having that big discussion about how he was having trouble figuring out how he could make fire fall from the sky...

[GrayAnderson]

I missed the bit about Yahweh giving the go-ahead that this was how the world was supposed to end. Then again, the original plan seems to have been "get all the believers to drop dead and then let the demon horde wipe out the rest".

[tortieconspiracy]

Well, we saw the "four living creatures" singing Yaweh's praises in the first book.

At the four corners of the room stood the four living creatures, chanting their ceaseless cry: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come;” and the twenty-four members of the Private Choir. They were ancient even by the angels' standards, and were constantly on their faces before the throne, murmuring, “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." Time was, their voices had outstripped even the living creatures in volume, but even here they were not free from time's ravages. An astute observer might look closely into their eyes and see the misery and despair there. Singing the same praises for untold millennia was not as heavenly as it sounded.

This is the biblical source:

In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come."

So clearly Yahweh gave a "Sure, why not?" to at least some parts of Revelation.

[Simon_Jester]

You given Heaven too much credit, remember the relevant passage of the book of Revelations has already been quoted, there are four particular evil beasts that we're going to be dealing with (though I'm surprised the beasts are showing up before all the bowls of wrath our poured out, I guess to give Micheal time to figure out how to rain fire from the sky) but they're "bosses" to use some video game terminology, not mooks. Heaven doesn't has an infinite supply of them.

True. On the other hand, Michael had to breed the monsters somehow. If nothing else, some of their second cousins are probably still kicking around somewhere.

Even mini-leopard-monsters could be problematic, especially if whatever the hell bioengineering techniques that make them so tough could be applied to ones that are "only" the size of an elephant or something. You could still kill them, yes, but a bunch of the beasts in the wrong place could probably cause as much trouble as the big one did.

Yes, that would be easier. I would just prefer to also have a mechanical way of doing it, so that I am not forced to use higher ground. There's also the possibility that all of Heaven exists at a very high PE level, which means we need to work out a way of pushing ordnance past a large PE gradient.

The obvious solution would be to use a bigger gun, but hopefully there's some way to finesse the problem.

Idly, I'd like to make a request for something the humans do when (not if) they manage to open portals to Heaven.

Bring some SR-71 Blackbirds out of retirement for strategic reconnaissance. Since we can't move satellites overhead, they're the best alternative we've got. And I sincerely doubt Heaven has anything that could even touch them.

Might need a new paint job, though. Maybe blue and white, if the skies of Heaven are anything like myth has led us to believe. Would make an interesting contrast to the Hell camo.

Behold: The SR-71D Bluebird!

[Jamesfirecat]

True. On the other hand, Michael had to breed the monsters somehow. If nothing else, some of their second cousins are probably still kicking around somewhere.

Look at the post above your own for how it mentions (if I read it right) apperently these four beasts are INCREDIBLY old and probably throw backs to whatever races Yahweh had worhsiping him before we came along, so I don't think there are likely to be any "degraded boss" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DegradedBoss) versions of them showing up later in the story.

In this one case (the beasts not the rest of the book of Revelations) it wasn't that the tripping guy saw something incredibly weird and Micheal was forced to breed it, but rather in this one particular case he evidently got a glimpse of Heaven the same way Dante got one of Hell.

Also if there's anything that we typically can take for granted I think its that Baldricks tend not to understand much of what they do, and so I doubt that Micheal's one captive deamon could help him figure out make normal earth animals bigger, stronger, harder and faster.

That doesn't even bring up the difficulity of needing to send angels to Earth in order to poach the animals to bring back to Heaven, which sounds like a great way to get bits of them shot or bombed off, espeically if Micheal convinces some of them "oh yeah Humans have already done all the hard work for us and gathered all these nasty animals in one loaction..." Leading to angels portalling into or otherwise trying to invade a zoo...

[Shroom Man 777]

Great chapter, Stuart!

From the very fact that it is 200-feet tall with things like horns and seven heads and has breasts that bleed silver blood, I don't think that kaiju has anything to do with leopards at all, Stas! The only thing that made Any Warhol think that it was a mutatified leopard would possibly be the feline bodily proportions and the coloration of the skin - and giant many-faced horn-monsters from Revelation don't need any remote evolutionary relation with felines or big cats to have spotted fur.

EDIT:

Also, this is not unprecedented. We've got the Great Heralds from Hell being portal-capable giant demonoids that require entire tank battalions to kill, or at least immobilize for the finishing blow to be delt by monologuing Russian politicians. Satan also used King Ghidora as personal transport!

I find it most interesting that what basically amounts to a giant dumb animal is portal-capable!

[Buritot]

Behold: The SR-71D Bluebird

'lo and behold, thy name is thy calling!

I'm a little disappointed by the restrictions in atmospheric exchange. I would have been fun to open up a portal in the uninhabited regions of Heaven on one side and somewhere in space on the side. Let them asphyxiate. The humans would be able to survive. The Angels? Not so much.

Or even better, instead of space put Mars on the other side. Terraforming and genocide on an unprecedented scale at the same time! But those pesky morals would probably prevent that...
And yes, since respawned humans sap up ambient energy they could survive without oxygen, just take a look at the victims drowning in water and liquid fire and what not.

I'm partly on Jamesfirecat's side concerning the origin of the beast(s). I assume they have been around for a long time and I doubt Yah-Yah would have permitted one to be taken from his throne room. There is clearly some other stock involved. Also, Leo is clearly hideous and therefore probably not up Yah-Yah's line.

But the part on the choir got me thinking. They're ancient even by angel standards which indicates they are older than humans. Maybe they were imported or previous inhabitants of Heaven (like Jamesfirecat offered) and - a bit far fetched - its rulers which punishment is whorshipping the one who defeated them? I clearly donned the crazy ass cap on my head for that one, but intriguing nonetheless

[edit: stupidity]

[Junghalli]

But the part on the choir got me thinking. They're ancient even by angel standards which indicates they are older than humans. Maybe they were imported or previous inhabitants of Heaven (like Jamesfirecat offered) and - a bit far fetched - its rulers which punishment is whorshipping the one who defeated them?

I'm thinking that they might be aliens from other worlds the Angels have established cults on.

In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come."

The description is interesting. There's apparently considerable physical diversity among them, suggesting they come from different races. But they're also all covered in eyes and all have six wings, which indicates some basic similarity.

If we dismiss the wings and eyes and decoration (perhaps body paint) rather than physical features then each one might be a representative of one of the intelligent races Yahweh claims as his "children" (presumably not counting the newly converted race, as they wouldn't have been known of when the Bible was written). The one with a face like a man is one of us, humans. The other three are representatives of different alien species from other planets or bubble worlds. I have to admit I'm rather fond of this idea.

The idea that they're the defeated aboriginal kings of Heaven is also interesting. I like it too, because it gives them a personally interesting backstory and we can run with the six wings and eyes all over description. It sounds like a primitive human's attempt to describe creatures of a truly alien species.

[Simon_Jester]

Look at the post above your own for how it mentions (if I read it right) apperently these four beasts are INCREDIBLY old and probably throw backs to whatever races Yahweh had worhsiping him before we came along, so I don't think there are likely to be any "degraded boss" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DegradedBoss) versions of them showing up later in the story.

I'm pretty sure those four creatures from Revelations aren't the same as the four giant Revelations-monsters. There are a lot of whacked-out creatures in Revelations.

Now, that's not to say there's no relationship between the four monsters and the more 'normal' stuff you find in Heaven. But my point is that it's hard to believe that Heaven had access to such immense creatures without having either the ability to make more or access to some other species that is at least roughly similar. If the monsters are entirely artificial, it should be possible to duplicate them; if the monsters are mutated versions of a natural species, likewise.

Now, they could be unique, but my general feeling is that what can be done once can be done twice.

[CaptainChewbacca]

The four six-winged creatures are generally referred to as 'The Elders' in religious texts, and are completely different than the beasts of revelation. The words for both are often translated as 'beasts', but for the Elders a more accurate term would be 'Living Being' as opposed to the monsters of revelations.

[tim31]

And anyway, the elders are just a bunch of eyes with wings glued on, they're animated scenery.

[Pelranius]

And anyway, the elders are just a bunch of eyes with wings glued on, they're animated scenery.

They sounded sort of sentient, given the 'despair and defeat' in their eyes.

I wonder if it would be possible for a Nephilim (or a group) to take control/influence of one of those leopard like creatures?

[TimothyC]

Bring some SR-71 Blackbirds out of retirement for strategic reconnaissance.

Stuart said that they are coming.

[bcoogler]

You could do it with a hydraulic cylinder anchored to the ground. It can apply great force to push a heavy object through the portal against resistance (thus making up the gravitational potential energy difference) until it's all the way through, at which point it falls like a stone. If they can open portals at will with pinpoint accuracy, this could potentially eliminate the need for bombers. You could run the equivalent of bomber sorties by simply lining up racks of ordnance on a portal-based delivery station and using hydraulics or some kind of sled launcher system to force the bombs through the portals.

Hydraulics might be safer than the high-speed sled launcher. It could be messy if the sudden sharp force gradient at the portal from a large potential energy increase triggers the bomb somehow. Subjectively, it would feel like hitting a wall.

From the story so far:

Hell-Alpha has an altitude differential, there's a slightly greater energy barrier.

How much of a differential? If an Earth side portal is at an elevation of 100 feet, and Hell side the potential energy equivalent of 1000 feet elevation, is the energy expenditure to drive a truck through the portal significantly less than the energy it would take to lift a truck from 100 feet to 1000 feet (like driving up a hill)? Throw in some hand-waviness about transiting between Earth and Hell messing with the usual understanding of energy conservation. I'd say that's kind of been done all ready, with all the new research into Hell physics.

If the energy cost of boosting through a portal is significantly less than a straight forward boost on Earth, then not only does your hydraulic system become possible, it may not necessarily need to be all that powerful. Perhaps no more force required than, say, a hydraulic lift used to service a city bus.

If the goal is to boost something from Earth into Earth orbit via portal, you presumably need to stage it through Hell first. If you could establish a portal transit station at the highest possible peak in Hell -- the Hell version of Mount Everest perhaps -- then you further reduce the boosting requirements at each stage. Like zigzagging up a mountain side.

If you can boost solid objects via portal, what about liquids? Could you run a pipeline through a stable portal and use a pumping station to maintain a flow of whatever is needed, be it diesel fuel, water, or CNG?

This idea is based on the thought that truck fuel tanks don't seem to spontaneously loose diesel fuel while transiting through a portal. If someone insisted on having a propane grill ("and propane accessories") delivered to Hell, I assume the pressurized propane tank would also maintain integrity while passing through the portal. So why not establish underground utilities through the big, stable portals?

[Gil Hamilton]

How much of a differential? If an Earth side portal is at an elevation of 100 feet, and Hell side the potential energy equivalent of 1000 feet elevation, is the energy expenditure to drive a truck through the portal significantly less than the energy it would take to lift a truck from 100 feet to 1000 feet (like driving up a hill)? Throw in some hand-waviness about transiting between Earth and Hell messing with the usual understanding of energy conservation. I'd say that's kind of been done all ready, with all the new research into Hell physics.

Path independence. Gravitational potential energy is conversative in nature, so only where you start and where you end up matter. That said, portals and the nature of hell DO allow you to handwave the physics. After all, position in hell is actually path dependent IE, if you walk two meters to the north and three to the west, you may well end up in a different position than if you walk three meters west and THEN two meters north (according to the story). Needless to say, that's all SORTS of fucked up.

It could be that portals simply come with an energy barrier that goes along with transition from one dimension to another and the portal does something like conserves momentum on a transit (like Portal portals), and thus ignores potential energy in either direction.

[tortieconspiracy]

The "defeat and despair" is in the eyes of the twenty four patriarchs, not the four creatures. It's not clear what the creatures think, if anything.

[Gil Hamilton]

Gedanken Experiment involving Portals.

Open up two portals next to each other but facing each other such that entering the portal goes to Hell and if you continue moving forward you go through a second portal back to Earth a few feet from the entrance to the first portal. Make sure the portals are connecting two areas of different altitudes such that a mass in one area has significantly more potential energy than it does in the other, say, make Hell "downhill" from the corresponding site on Earth.

Now, stick a straight pipe through the portals, one long enough to each all the way through from Earth to Hell and back, such that the ends of the pipes are almost touching. Join the pipe ends with a connector and weld the whole thing shut. Now, through a valve in the pipe on Earth, begin allowing water flow into the pipe while venting the air in the pipe so the water can displace it. However, do not fill it all the way, just roughly fill it half full.

Finally, let the system come to equilibrium. Unless I'm thinking wrong, the water should collect in the region of the pipe in the lower potential energy zone, even though the pipe is perfectly straight, with gravity acting like a force field keeping it there.

This has nothing to do with the story, just was a silly thought I had.