Dr. Who differernt realities

[NecronLord]

Further the Doctor explains to Donna that she's been in a paralell universe the entire time she had the bug on her back.

That's not an issue.

The Time Lords/Daleks enabled travel from one alternate universe to another, not the existance of them. The Trickster and his goons send you back in time to hive off an alternate timeline, or to change the past. You still only exist in one timeline. Donna went back in time to her past, and lived in her past timeline that was changed. This happens a couple of times in SJA too.

So: aliens of minor consequence can create alternate universes with their pets,

Not really minor, the Trickster himself is an important villain in Sarah Jane Smith Adventures, being the main antagonist of two two-part episodes to date, and it's quite clear he has substantial abilities, including the ability to appear only to selected beings, and travel in space and time, as well as track down the Doctor - in Season 1 of SJA, he threatens to kill the Doctor, and sure enough, he accomplishes this in Turn Left. Which is more than... pretty much every villain ever in Doctor Who managed to do - he actually got the meddling Time Lord.

He is however, normally a sealed evil in a can, and can only, for unexplained reasons, influence reality with the consent of another being - when he manifests physically in season two, he's personally able to render the Earth barren. He's certainly not someone to be trifled with.

There is some fan-speculation that he may be a form of the Black Guardian, as both have similar descriptions ("Feed off chaos" etc) and actually said the same thing to their stooges "Waking or sleeping, I am always with you" - but that's just conjecture.

[Straha]

Point gladly conceded. Along with the fact that I've never watched any of the Sarah Jane Adventures.

[NecronLord]

Point gladly conceded. Along with the fact that I've never watched any of the Sarah Jane Adventures.

Nor had I when I saw Turn Left. I actually gave it a shot and, bearing in mind the intended audience, it's quality. Amusingly it's much better than Torchwood was until this year, despite having a much smaller budget and so on.

[NecronLord]

The Trickster threatens the Doctor, this went out a while before Turn Left did.

[Stark]

That's a pretty disingenuos description of the events of 'Turn Left' (which were basically massively implausible alt-fic dream sequence). It sucked for Donna, but it's hardly 'getting' the Doctor to create a very realistic movie wherein he dies in a way that makes absolutely no sense. Billions of Starks are killed every day, but that rationale.

In short, the Doctor didn't die or even cease to exist for a moment due to the events of Turn Left (which really don't stand up to scruntiny at all).

[Batman]

Oh frabjous day. Now I'll have to watch Turn Left again.

[Stark]

Thankfully, you can just watch the first two minutes and the last ninety seconds. Depending on how much weight you give the Doctor's explanation (I don't give it much personally) it's possible the events were almost entirely manufactured for the creature to somehow gain energy (from a universe it created somehow, roffle).

[Batman]

I just despise Turn Left as it is one of those 'guess what, this episode might as well never have happened to begin with' episodes VOY is infamous for.

[Straha]

I just despise Turn Left as it is one of those 'guess what, this episode might as well never have happened to begin with' episodes VOY is infamous for.

How about because the main character is completely unlikeable and the entire plot is paper thin revolving around one of the Trickster's RTD's usual mindlessly shitty plots?

[Stark]

Don't forget where she's shown to be nearly retarded and totally disregarding of others.

[NecronLord]

That's a pretty disingenuos description of the events of 'Turn Left' (which were basically massively implausible alt-fic dream sequence). It sucked for Donna, but it's hardly 'getting' the Doctor to create a very realistic movie wherein he dies in a way that makes absolutely no sense. Billions of Starks are killed every day, but that rationale.

Except Doctor Who doesn't have quantum alternate realities - thankfully, they're getting very old for me as a dramatic concept at this point - it's not stargate - that you're talking about. It has some alternate realities and some actual changing the past. We don't know how that works, but it's pretty clear there aren't endless alternate realities in the setting, from every possible decision.

From our understanding, it's possible that the original timeline ceased to exist when Donna 'turned right' and was replaced with the new one - though this contradicts the Doctor's dialogue at the end, that's what he suggests will happen if time is changed on other occasions. Regardless, that guy and his pet bug actually killed the Doctor; the fact that it's an alternate reality doesn't mean much - he still got the bastard.

[Stark]

Except Doctor Who doesn't have quantum alternate realities - thankfully, they're getting very old for me as a dramatic concept at this point - it's not stargate - that you're talking about. It has some alternate realities and some actual changing the past. We don't know how that works, but it's pretty clear there aren't endless alternate realities in the setting, from every possible decision.

Prove it.

This'll be fun. Hilariously, the Inferno alt-Earth and Pete's world are both pretty clearly just typical 'many worlds' variations.

From our understanding, it's possible that the original timeline ceased to exist when Donna 'turned right' and was replaced with the new one - though this contradicts the Doctor's dialogue at the end, that's what he suggests will happen if time is changed on other occasions. Regardless, that guy and his pet bug actually killed the Doctor; the fact that it's an alternate reality doesn't mean much - he still got the bastard.

You mean, from your understanding. The idea that a psychic bug can make the entire universe disappear, engage in time travel, feed off the 'lost potential' and then SOMEHOW reset it back to normal the moment the participant leaves by dying is pretty asinine (and ultimately useless). What's tri-larious about the episode is that Donna remembers it all, and that Rose was magically able to find her/them ANYWAY!

Your hilarious claim that 'that guy' and 'his bug' killed the Doctor continues to amuse me; a torrent of water killed the Doctor (fucking somehow, but Turn Left has enough plotholes already and the whole Racnoss thing was retarded to start with). And y'know what? Then he wasn't dead anymore, because it was a pocket universe the whole time. I'm blown away by this ability to do net-zero! I fear the trickster's ability to accomplish nothing at all!

[NecronLord]

Prove it.

This'll be fun. Hilariously, the Inferno alt-Earth and Pete's world are both pretty clearly just typical 'many worlds' variations.

Other worlds, yes. MWI no. MWI is specifically ruled out by all that talk about 'the timeline can correct around it' in the fucking episode we're talking about. Try and read and comprehend, rather than assuming that vitriol is a substitute for a reasoned argument.

Doctor Who has "the timeline can correct itself" and "history can be re-written" - this clearly means that Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantumn Physics as in say, Stargate, or Star Trek, where there would be 'billions of Starks' - is not true. Out it goes with the dishwater - so we look at what evidence there is. There's some alternate realities, but formed by other, unknown, means. We have no reason to believe there is a particularly large number of alternate realities aside from spinoff media, and the way Davros screeches 'Every parallel, every single corner of existance!'

You mean, from your understanding. The idea that a psychic bug can make the entire universe disappear, engage in time travel, feed off the 'lost potential' and then SOMEHOW reset it back to normal the moment the participant leaves by dying is pretty asinine (and ultimately useless). What's tri-larious about the episode is that Donna remembers it all, and that Rose was magically able to find her/them ANYWAY!

Your hilarious claim that 'that guy' and 'his bug' killed the Doctor continues to amuse me; a torrent of water killed the Doctor (fucking somehow,

Ffft. That's not hard. Trap him and burn through his remaining regenerations. Even Time Lords don't last forever underwater.

I also take it you would only credit someone with killing their enemies if they turned up in person and stoved their heads in with a brick or something? Ffft. For my money, you manipulate your enemies into a situation where they die, you've killed them.

[Straha]

But, according to the Doctor, he never died. Donna was merely trapped in a pocket universe where he did die. In other words the Trickster never killed the Doctor, he just made a universe where the Doctor was dead.

[NecronLord]

But, according to the Doctor, he never died. Donna was merely trapped in a pocket universe where he did die. In other words the Trickster never killed the Doctor, he just made a universe where the Doctor was dead.

If you have MWI it is next to impossible to kill someone definatively, because in an infinite number of universes, they've survived. Consequently, if you've produced a body in any timeline, it's fair to say you've killed them - because short of a Reality Bomb type affair of wank, you can't get them in all timelines. Of course, with MWI, there are infinite universes where the Doctor gets shot in the face by the Brigadier for pissing him off. Even with more limited alternate worlds, when you kill someone, you've killed someone. He made a living Doctor into a dead Doctor.

More to the point, for the Trickster's needs, it's pretty obvious that alternate/changed timelines feed him. He made a living Doctor into a corpse. What more do you want? A Reality Bomb? So no version of the Doctor anywhere survives?

EDIT: This is a form of sophistry: By dismissing accomplishments in alternate timelines we are suggesting that they essentially did not occur. This is exceptionally dubious, especially in a universe where it is possible (on occasion) to travel between timelines: John Lumic's actions had a profound impact on OTL Earth despite seemingly never having existed there. The Trickster ensured the death of the Doctor in an alternate timeline - he killed the Doctor.

[Straha]

For him to kill the Doctor! In his universe the Doctor doesn't die. He doesn't even sneeze. In Donna-verse he may have died, but that doesn't do the Trickster any good, nor does it look like he went through on his threat to anyone but Donna, and that was only temporarily.

Imagine it in reverse. Suppose a planet was under attack by the Monsters of the Week, and the Doctor promises to save the people on it. He then takes out a giant overgrown rubber cockroach and slaps it on someone's back before sitting bac smugly and saying "and in another universe which I just created, now you are saved! Job well done I think. Bye!" and leaving. No one would say he'd saved the planet or its inhabitants. They'd say he pulled off a bit of rhetorical casuistry, used it as a cop-out and ran off to leave these people to their death.

[Straha]

I posted the above before your edit so let me deal with that now.

EDIT: This is a form of sophistry: By dismissing accomplishments in alternate timelines we are suggesting that they essentially did not occur. This is exceptionally dubious, especially in a universe where it is possible (on occasion) to travel between timelines: John Lumic's actions had a profound impact on OTL Earth despite seemingly never having existed there. The Trickster ensured the death of the Doctor in an alternate timeline - he killed the Doctor.

But he didn't even kill the Doctor of a paralell universe like Earth-2! He created a universe wherein a Doctor died, not the Doctor he was refering to with Sarah Jane, and he doesn't even manage to do that right because the Universe is promptly uncreated. From the point of view of the Doctor that universe has effectively ceased to ever exist. Its existence may have helped to feed the Trickster but so would have slapping that bug on just about anyone's back. And, I should note, Turn Left did nothing to influence the OTL other than give the Doctor slightly early warning of a big shit storm, but since the Cloister bell was ringing he was going to know eventually anyway. So, at the end of the day, is there a dead Doctor? No, because the Doctor who died essentially never existed. Did the Trickster do anything of significance to the OTL? No. Has he done anything to Sarah Jane that would cause her anguish? Nope.

In short has the Trickster done anything of any import beyond possibly feed himself? No.

[dragon]

Here's the last couple of minutes from Turn left. The Doctor mentions that the trickster brigade changes small things and the universe compensates. But for Donna a paralell one was created around here. And for some reason thats been happening alot with her.

link

Even though it's still bs that he basically mind raped donna in the end

[NecronLord]

For him to kill the Doctor! In his universe the Doctor doesn't die. He doesn't even sneeze. In Donna-verse he may have died, but that doesn't do the Trickster any good, nor does it look like he went through on his threat to anyone but Donna, and that was only temporarily.

Err. Yes it does. He's not afraid of the Doctor. He's out to kill him for the sake of dickery and feeding.

Imagine it in reverse. Suppose a planet was under attack by the Monsters of the Week, and the Doctor promises to save the people on it. He then takes out a giant overgrown rubber cockroach and slaps it on someone's back before sitting bac smugly and saying "and in another universe which I just created, now you are saved! Job well done I think. Bye!" and leaving. No one would say he'd saved the planet or its inhabitants. They'd say he pulled off a bit of rhetorical casuistry, used it as a cop-out and ran off to leave these people to their death.

If you subscribe to MWI for Dr Who, that's exactly what he does - regularly. Because every action is enacted, including that one.

Anyway, you're assuming that the original universe continued to exist. Which at no point was stated in Turn Left, and would outright contradict previous incidences of time travel. The bug went back, changed Donna's life and....

Time's in flux. It's changing every second. Your cozy little world could be rewritten like that.

He called it a parallel world, but does that mean the original world continued to exist? who knows - the Doctor probably doesn't, given how inconsistant he is on such things. Hell, he didn't even know parallel timelines existed until Inferno.

What's more, in Turn Left Rose, with an ability to travel across timelines - blathers on and on about finding the Doctor, which would be a bit iffy if the OTL still existed, Doctor and all. In short, I see no reason to think that the OTL survived in Turn Left - never mind that if it does, all your objections about it being a pointless story actually have some weight. I think it's pretty clear that Turn Left erased and replaced the OTL for its duration. Not that it was an alternate world.

I posted the above before your edit so let me deal with that now.

But he didn't even kill the Doctor of a paralell universe like Earth-2! He created a universe wherein a Doctor died, not the Doctor he was refering to with Sarah Jane,

Err. SJ's association with the Doctor was primarily before the point of divergence. So, yes. It is her Doctor.

and he doesn't even manage to do that right because the Universe is promptly uncreated. From the point of view of the Doctor that universe has effectively ceased to ever exist. Its existence may have helped to feed the Trickster but so would have slapping that bug on just about anyone's back. And, I should note, Turn Left did nothing to influence the OTL other than give the Doctor slightly early warning of a big shit storm, but since the Cloister bell was ringing he was going to know eventually anyway. So, at the end of the day, is there a dead Doctor? No, because the Doctor who died essentially never existed. Did the Trickster do anything of significance to the OTL?

Through sheer improbable luck, that timeline 'ceased to exist' - yes.

He's a Doctor Who villain. Of course he's defeated

What part of this are you not getting. He produced a Doctor-Corpse. This is more than any other villain ever. This does not mean he actually succeeded? Hell no.

Has he done anything to Sarah Jane that would cause her anguish? Nope.

Given that in the timeline he created, she died on the Moon, I have my doubts about that. I'd be pretty pissed off if I got killed by an MRI.

[Stark]

Other worlds, yes. MWI no.

What?

MWI is specifically ruled out by all that talk about 'the timeline can correct around it' in the fucking episode we're talking about. Try and read and comprehend, rather than assuming that vitriol is a substitute for a reasoned argument.

'Timeline can correct around it'? You mean that way people change history all the time, and how you can create personal paradoxes trivally? So much correction!

Doctor Who has "the timeline can correct itself" and "history can be re-written" - this clearly means that Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantumn Physics as in say, Stargate, or Star Trek, where there would be 'billions of Starks' - is not true.

How? Why? There are DEMONSTRABLY universes that are almost exactly the same, only different in detail or due to a couple of different decisions. I'm not seeing how this is evidence for no parallel universes; whether they're created by decisions or stupid dung beetles is irrelevant to me (and the point)

Out it goes with the dishwater - so we look at what evidence there is. There's some alternate realities, but formed by other, unknown, means.

Who cares how they're formed?

We have no reason to believe there is a particularly large number of alternate realities aside from spinoff media, and the way Davros screeches 'Every parallel, every single corner of existance!'

Are you seriously saying there aren't many alternate universes because a show where they're explicitly described as remote doesn't discuss them much?

Ffft. That's not hard. Trap him and burn through his remaining regenerations. Even Time Lords don't last forever underwater.

Don't be an asinine fatty nerd. The implication is the events of Runaway Bride happened so similarly that the Doctor was down in the Torchwood base with explosives to drain the Thames, even though at many points in the episode this was dependent on his interaction with Donna. Turns out the writing was stupid and contrived to force the ridiculous Nazi nonsense?

I'm glad to see it's so easy to kill the Doctor nobody can do it.

I also take it you would only credit someone with killing their enemies if they turned up in person and stoved their heads in with a brick or something? Ffft. For my money, you manipulate your enemies into a situation where they die, you've killed them.

What if I create a totally different version of them in a universe I control such that that copy dies? Amazing! I'm blown away by this 'achievement'.

I love how you think that it erased (and then replaced) the real universe (which somehow 'feeds' the creature, lol conservation of energy) because Rose was there. Oh no, people inside a universe are concerned about events there! It's amazing I know. Even better; she can travel between universes (at least those affected by Davros rar rar). What's the point of 'consuming' 'potential timelines' IF IT FUCKING RESETS TO NOTHING WHEN THE PARTICIPANT DIES. Turns out the episode was just a drug trip.

EDIT - thanks for making me remember that horrible episode, but the best part is that the Doctor doesn't 'die' in this scenario - HE COMMITS SUICIDE. Amazing! Someone with universe creation/temporal editing powers is able to construct a situation whereby an emotionally unstable PTSD-sufferer commits suicide in an orgy of destruction.

And then doesn't. LOL!

[NecronLord]

whether they're created by decisions or stupid dung beetles is irrelevant to me (and the point)

There is a substantial difference between stock MWI as in Stargate, and alternate realities created by other means - if it's the second, there's no reason to say they're infinite in numbers.

Who cares how they're formed?

I do. As you won't like it, - lump it.

Are you seriously saying there aren't many alternate universes because a show where they're explicitly described as remote doesn't discuss them much?

Does not compute. What does 'remote' have to do with it?

Don't be an asinine fatty nerd. The implication is the events of Runaway Bride happened so similarly that the Doctor was down in the Torchwood base with explosives to drain the Thames, even though at many points in the episode this was dependent on his interaction with Donna. Turns out the writing was stupid and contrived to force the ridiculous Nazi nonsense?

Umm. Yeah, whatever. It's not like he, making it his business to fight hostile aliens, would conceivably end up at their lair by other means, now is it?

I love how you think that it erased (and then replaced) the real universe (which somehow 'feeds' the creature, lol conservation of energy)

Conservation of energy is demonstratably false in Who. This is a setting where monks can slow down heat death by doing reeeaallly 'aaaarrrrrd sums.

because Rose was there. Oh no, people inside a universe are concerned about events there! It's amazing I know. Even better; she can travel between universes (at least those affected by Davros rar rar). What's the point of 'consuming' 'potential timelines' IF IT FUCKING RESETS TO NOTHING WHEN THE PARTICIPANT DIES. Turns out the episode was just a drug trip.

Uhuh. Yeah. It's not like they sent her back in time to change time back, or anything, is it?


Incidentally, the Time Beetle is not the only enemy to kill the Doctor: The 'Reapers' in Father's Day managed that, much more directly, too.

[Straha]

So Rose and the Trickster each have one dead doctor under their belts.

Said like that it sounds like a leadup to a bad fanfic.

Anyway, Necron you seem like you're getting frustrated. Which means that in another world you're hunting down Stark to kill him for this. Which will make you a murderer and Stark very upset, right?

[NecronLord]

You seem unable to comprehend that MWI is not present in Doctor Who.

MWI is Many Worlds Interpretation: The quantum physics notion that every quantum outcome is played out in an alternate timeline. In Doctor Who this is demonstratably untrue. If it was, then the mere possibility of the Reality Bomb would mean that the multiverse would be destroyed. There'd be a number of alternate universes where Donna Noble banged her head as she fell and died of epidural hemorrhage, instead of saving the multiverse - those Reality Bombs would activate, and purge all other timelines. And the entire universe in the original timeline would have been purged.

The existance of the Reality Bomb precludes MWI in Doctor Who, simply because if it is possible, in some reality, one would have been made and used long ago, and eradicated all other spacetime. For Dr Who related threads, this means the MWI is disproven by empirical evidence.

There are a variety of other actual quantum physics ideas that include a non-infinite number of parallel timelines. Of course, these are inadequate to explain the phonomena observed in Who (void particles, etc). Simply because it was on Star Trek does not make it fact, and it most certainly doesn't make it fact (MWI is interesting, but the Copenhagen interpretation - when a waveform collapses, other possibilities simply become irrelevant, rather than being played out in their own universes - is just as useful an explanation. It is not the only dog in town, though there are good arguments for it, it's merely got story potential, so is popularised by sci-fi) in other fictional franchises.