On Lensman-verse Aliens (From PSW)

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On Lensman-verse Aliens (From PSW)

Post by NecronLord »

EDIT: This topic was split from a discussion in PSW about 'Anti-Alien Racism in the Alliance'
Samuel wrote:You mean like how black people are all lazy? :roll:
That really doesn't work.

The absolutely-non-human poison-breathing multi-dimensional aliens in question literally do not have an emotional/mental capacity to be 'brave' (which is to say, to stand against fear) than we have the ability to breathe their poisonous atmosphere, or survive naked in the liquid helium they enjoy. Nonetheless, the character from that planet in the relevant books proves instrumental in saving the galaxy, because despite a total lack of bravery, simply by focussing his efforts on areas where such things are not required, and at times acting as a moderating, cautious, influence on the group.

They're not in any way a metaphor humans, excepting in that it's meant as a diversity equals strength message - they're an example of genuinely alien aliens. Nadreck's lack of courage is not treated in any way as making him inferior: while it makes humans somewhat confused, it is not presented as a negative trait, any more than his liking living in liquid helium: which requires him to go around in a super-cooled space suit, of course, but otherwise is merely a trait of his species.
___ ___ ___

In any case, the comparison with Lensman's Civilization is rather irrelevant: humans are very prominent, but they do not dominate Civilization in the same way humans dominate the Galactic Republic.
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

Post by NecronLord »

Samuel wrote:? If an alien has evolved in a social group than it will have the capacity for bravery.
Why? In their absolutely different environment, should we assume they have such a thing? All we know about their evolution is that they live in seas of liquid helium and are made of something multi-dimensional. Their comfortable temperature would be something like 4 Kelvin. Almost every single factor driving evolution on our world is inapplicable to their environment: they can't be made out of the same stuff we are, even. For all we know, the very idea of predation simply never existed on their world, and their species' only evolutionary need for fear is to avoid falling rocks, thus they have no fight reflex, only flight.
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

Post by Samuel »

NecronLord wrote:
Samuel wrote:? If an alien has evolved in a social group than it will have the capacity for bravery.
Why? In their absolutely different environment, should we assume they have such a thing? All we know about their evolution is that they live in seas of liquid helium and are made of something multi-dimensional. Their comfortable temperature would be something like 4 Kelvin. Almost every single factor driving evolution on our world is inapplicable to their environment: they can't be made out of the same stuff we are, even. For all we know, the very idea of predation simply never existed on their world, and their species' only evolutionary need for fear is to avoid falling rocks, thus they have no fight reflex, only flight.
Are you going to clarify what multidimensional means? Because humans are technically in that category. We do exist in 3 dimensions

The reason bravery exists is because there are different social groups and it helps if members of each group are willing to die for the good of the group. Having their environment being made of liquid helium will not change this. What you would need to do is have a species that doesn't have any group evolution. I have a hard time seeing such a species get to space flight though.
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

Post by Samuel »

NecronLord wrote:
Samuel wrote:? If an alien has evolved in a social group than it will have the capacity for bravery.
Why? In their absolutely different environment, should we assume they have such a thing? All we know about their evolution is that they live in seas of liquid helium and are made of something multi-dimensional. Their comfortable temperature would be something like 4 Kelvin. Almost every single factor driving evolution on our world is inapplicable to their environment: they can't be made out of the same stuff we are, even. For all we know, the very idea of predation simply never existed on their world, and their species' only evolutionary need for fear is to avoid falling rocks, thus they have no fight reflex, only flight.
Are you going to clarify what multidimensional means? Because humans are technically in that category. We do exist in 3 dimensions

The reason bravery exists is because there are different social groups and it helps if members of each group are willing to die for the good of the group. Having their environment being made of liquid helium will not change this. What you would need to do is have a species that doesn't have any group evolution. I have a hard time seeing such a species get to space flight though.
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

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Samuel wrote:Are you going to clarify what multidimensional means? Because humans are technically in that category. We do exist in 3 dimensions
Jesus Christ. It's a sci-fi space opera context. What do you think it means? They exist in at least 4+1 dimensional spacetime, compared to our 3+1.

The reason bravery exists is because there are different social groups and it helps if members of each group are willing to die for the good of the group. Having their environment being made of liquid helium will not change this. What you would need to do is have a species that doesn't have any group evolution. I have a hard time seeing such a species get to space flight though.
If you want to apply human norms to such a thing, start by explaining how natural selection applies to something with completely unknown biology that is in no way related to our own - as far as I know, nothing in our biology operates at four kelvin. For all you know, they reproduce by crystallising out of the ether.

Then talk about how it might evolve.
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

Post by Samuel »

If you want to apply human norms to such a thing, start by explaining how natural selection applies to something with completely unknown biology that is in no way related to our own - as far as I know, nothing in our biology operates at four kelvin. For all you know, they reproduce by crystallising out of the ether.

Then talk about how it might evolve.
Natural selection works the exact same way, no matter what the environment is as long as the requirements are met. What varies is what is selected for. Claiming they magically get out of group dynamics is false, as they have a language. Is there any reason to believe that they didn't fight in groups for limited resources like every other living thing?

You can, of course, make any alien species with any psychology- the problem is making it so that it is plausible. Having one that rejects medicine for example, can be done- it is just insane.
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

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Samuel wrote:Natural selection works the exact same way, no matter what the environment is as long as the requirements are met.
STOP AND THINK, shit for brains. If they crystallise out of the ether or something absurd like that, means that natural selection has no hold on them whatsoever, because it works by inheritance.

What's more, not every living thing fights for resources - what the hell kind of horse shit is that? Right off the top of my head, tapeworms don't engage in any competition that requires physical combat of any sort. What's more, we don't know what kind of resources they actually require to live - they could survive off hydrogen, for all I know (it may be mentioned what they consume in the books, which I don't care to look up at the moment)
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

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Assuming that the strange species people are talking about are Palainians from Edward E. Smith's Lensman series, there are quite a few distortions flying around.

18, Nadreck was not flying around Onlo spreading rumours. He was using his telepathic powers to screw up the Onlonians, inducing paranoia and various psychoses by remote. No one even realised that he was there. Which also answers Samuel's question.

NecronLord, Palainians have definitely evolved sexual reproduction, otherwise the idea of Arisian-controlled breeding programmes for superior bloodlines would be useless. First Lensman hints some more at this; among other things, they have more than two sexes (GURPS Lensman says four, which may or may not come from the David Kyle books; I have not read those and am not certain of their canonicity). I see no reason why natural selection would not apply to them.

Palainians subsist on energy gathered from the fourth spatial dimension (through the technique of "dexitroboping," whatever the Hell that means) and are not dependent on nutrient intake in our three-plus-one space-time. They can subsist indefinitely in hard vacuum. Their metabolism does require temperatures a few degrees above absolute zero to work for some reason that is not clarified in the books, presumably dependent on the chemistry of their three-dimensional bodies.

Their sociology is weird. We do know that they developed inertialess spaceflight very early, despite having little apparent incentive for colonisation. Their society as depicted in First Lensman was anarchistic-lolbertarian, with any cooperation between individuals being entirely voluntary (and usually temporary); interaction appeared limited. GURPS Lensman claims that their cowardliness/flight response developed from predation by "hyper-dimensional" aliens in their early evolutionary history and is a leftover from their pre-technological time when they were not the top of their food chain. Tentatively it could also be a result of Eddorian manipulation; Gharlane is known to have disrupted Velantia's normal evolution, and might well have done the same to them, Palainians otherwise being the most formidable of Civilisation's species and thus a potential threat. If I recall correctly, there was something in Children of the Lens that might have hinted at that.
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Discussion of Lensman-verse Aliens (From PSW)

Post by Samuel »

STOP AND THINK, shit for brains. If they crystallise out of the ether or something absurd like that, means that natural selection has no hold on them whatsoever, because it works by inheritance.
Are you an idiot? If they aren't covered by natural selection THEY WON'T ALL HAVE THE SAME PERSONALITY. If they materialize out of the ether why the hell would they be cowards? Why would they have societies? Why would they have intelligence?
What's more, not every living thing fights for resources - what the hell kind of horse shit is that? Right off the top of my head, tapeworms don't engage in any competition that requires physical combat of any sort. What's more, we don't know what kind of resources they actually require to live - they could survive off hydrogen, for all I know (it may be mentioned what they consume in the books, which I don't care to look up at the moment)
Fight doesn't just mean physical combat.
Palainians subsist on energy gathered from the fourth spatial dimension (through the technique of "dexitroboping," whatever the Hell that means) and are not dependent on nutrient intake in our three-plus-one space-time.
Infinite resources does tend to eliminate conflict.
GURPS Lensman claims that their cowardliness/flight response developed from predation by "hyper-dimensional" aliens in their early evolutionary history and is a leftover from their pre-technological time when they were not the top of their food chain. Tentatively it could also be a result of Eddorian manipulation; Gharlane is known to have disrupted Velantia's normal evolution, and might well have done the same to them, Palainians otherwise being the most formidable of Civilisation's species and thus a potential threat.
Well, that answers it- they have an abnormal psychology because they were shaped by artificial selection.
As I recalled it, the limit was the size/mass of the drivers; Anakin was going to have to quit soon because he was growing too big for the pod.
Why don't they just make bigger pods?
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

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Darth Hoth wrote:NecronLord, Palainians have definitely evolved sexual reproduction,
As a matter of fact, I was fully aware of that. But I see no reason whatsoever to inform him, given that he happily accepted the idea of them simply popping into existance without question, but objected to the idea that they are incapable of bravery despite such an origin. I am interested to see at what point he stops insisting aliens should have emotions comparable to humans.
GURPS Lensman claims that their cowardliness/flight response developed from predation by "hyper-dimensional" aliens in their early evolutionary history and is a leftover from their pre-technological time when they were not the top of their food chain.
I do not regard anything not penned by Smith as canon for the Lensman setting. That restricts it to the Lensman books and Masters of the Vortex.
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

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Samuel wrote:Are you an idiot? If they aren't covered by natural selection THEY WON'T ALL HAVE THE SAME PERSONALITY. If they materialize out of the ether why the hell would they be cowards? Why would they have societies? Why would they have intelligence?
Who cares? Do you demand such an explanation for the Melters in Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor (assuming you've read it) or other non-corporeals in Star Wars? "Species" without any biologically comprehensible origin are quite common in space opera. In the worlds of typical space opera, both Lensman and Star Wars, it is possible for sapient beings to come into existance without any biological or mechanical process.
Fight doesn't just mean physical combat.
Nor does 'let us challenge them to athletic sports' require courage in the sense meant by 18 and myself, which you may recall, I handily defined for you as 'the ability to resist fear' a while back. Do you require courage to compete with me, here, in this talking shop? That's 'competition' in the nebulous sense you're talking about, but you have no reason to be afraid, and thus, no reason to call it courage.
Infinite resources does tend to eliminate conflict.
Says who? You? Because nothing in reality has infinite resources, so I don't know what your source for that is.
Well, that answers it- they have an abnormal psychology because they were shaped by artificial selection.
Nope.
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

Post by Samuel »

"Species" without any biologically comprehensible origin are quite common in space opera. In the worlds of typical space opera, both Lensman and Star Wars, it is possible for sapient beings to come into existance without any biological or mechanical process.
Except they aren't popping out all over the universe. Something is causing them to occur in a specific place. I don't know what it is, but I do know that means that the conditions in that place are different from everywhere else. Just because you can't see the machinary making them doesn't mean it isn't there.
Says who? You? Because nothing in reality has infinite resources, so I don't know what your source for that is.
Palainians subsist on energy gathered from the fourth spatial dimension (through the technique of "dexitroboping," whatever the Hell that means) and are not dependent on nutrient intake in our three-plus-one space-time.
Well, that answers it- they have an abnormal psychology because they were shaped by artificial selection.
Nope.
GURPS Lensman claims that their cowardliness/flight response developed from predation by "hyper-dimensional" aliens in their early evolutionary history and is a leftover from their pre-technological time when they were not the top of their food chain. Tentatively it could also be a result of Eddorian manipulation; Gharlane is known to have disrupted Velantia's normal evolution, and might well have done the same to them, Palainians otherwise being the most formidable of Civilisation's species and thus a potential threat.
Nor does 'let us challenge them to athletic sports' require courage in the sense meant by 18 and myself, which you may recall, I handily defined for you as 'the ability to resist fear' a while back. Do you require courage to compete with me, here, in this talking shop? That's 'competition' in the nebulous sense you're talking about, but you have no reason to be afraid, and thus, no reason to call it courage.
No, it just messes with my nerves. I lost track about what we were arguing about which is why I gave a definition that was completely unrelated to what we were talking about.
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

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Samuel wrote:Except they aren't popping out all over the universe. Something is causing them to occur in a specific place. I don't know what it is, but I do know that means that the conditions in that place are different from everywhere else. Just because you can't see the machinary making them doesn't mean it isn't there.
And why should it inclulate bravery? As you suggest?
Palainians subsist on energy gathered from the fourth spatial dimension (through the technique of "dexitroboping," whatever the Hell that means) and are not dependent on nutrient intake in our three-plus-one space-time.
A quote is not an answer. You claimed that having infinite resources would not eliminate conflict. I would like to know what you justified that based upon.
Tentatively it could also be a result of Eddorian manipulation; Gharlane is known to have disrupted Velantia's normal evolution, and might well have done the same to them, Palainians otherwise being the most formidable of Civilisation's species and thus a potential threat.
Since when were Hoth's speculations canon for anything at all?
No, it just messes with my nerves. I lost track about what we were arguing about which is why I gave a definition that was completely unrelated to what we were talking about.
So in fact, you're not saying there is any reason why a totally alien being from an equally alien environment should have an ability to overcome its fear response. Very good.
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

Post by Samuel »

Necron Lord wrote:And why should it inclulate bravery? As you suggest?
Why should it create fear? If you don't have reproduction, it is going to be entirely random or designed depending on the mechanism.
Necron Lord wrote:A quote is not an answer. You claimed that having infinite resources would not eliminate conflict. I would like to know what you justified that based upon.
Samuel wrote:Infinite resources does tend to eliminate conflict.
:P
Since when were Hoth's speculations canon for anything at all?
It isn't canon. It does explain the situation and the other possible explanation is infinite resources precluding the need for conflict. Either works.
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

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Samuel wrote:It isn't canon. It does explain the situation and the other possible explanation is infinite resources precluding the need for conflict. Either works.
Then it's not impossible. Glad we could come to some agreement. My apologies on the misunderstanding of what you'd said with regard to 'infinite resources.'
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

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Samuel wrote:Infinite resources does tend to eliminate conflict.
If we accept the GURPS book, there are other extra-dimensional creatures that subsist off predation, which would indicate that the hyper-dimension's resources are not freely available or infinite. Another point against this argument is that other "frigid-blooded" species in the same universe, with similar physiologies, have evolved highly organised and regimented societies (e.g., Eich, Onlonians). The Palainians are quite exceptional even for their own group.
NecronLord wrote:I do not regard anything not penned by Smith as canon for the Lensman setting. That restricts it to the Lensman books and Masters of the Vortex.
Well, I would at least make an exception for New Lensman, the manuscript of which Smith himself approved and gave Ellern written permission to publish. The GURPS book is full of errors and - you guessed it - minimalism, so I could do without that one, but it was, after all, approved by Doc's estate; specifically Verna Smith Trestrail, who was herself deeply involved in the writing of the original series; and it was continuity-checked. Should they not have the right to decide what is in?
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

Hoth, I'm pretty sure that only Humans were involved in the Arisian breeding program. The other races just evolved that way. None of them were artificial though, even humans, this wasn't genetic engineering it was just the Arisians using the concept of animal husbandry with sentient races...which, as it turns out, worked fine.

At least I don't recall the other Civilization races being part of the Arisian plan. They were "created", in the sense that they evolved from the stuff the Arisians seeded the universe with, or some such.

Samuel, the Ice-People (I could never spell their name right) were not even the most bizarre race in Lensmen. You have to understand how incredibly alien some of these people are, even more than just having no concept of bravery. There was at least one race of huge, horse-sized dragons with a hundred eyes on little extendable stalks. There was another race with three arms, three legs, cylinder-like bodies and as far as I can tell NO FUCKING EYES...they "saw" through other senses. Possibly "hear" through them too, since when the main character goes to their homeworld the noise was extremely intense and they didn't really grasp the idea of "too loud" until he explained it to them. The main villains, the Eddorians, were blobs of flesh with no discernable features who repoduced by cell division like some kind of sentient cancers. Most of these races...possibly all of them...can not communicate with one another without telepathy. They're not just people with bumps on their forehead, they're exceedingly different in appearance, society, evolution and mental processes.

Besides the Ice-Men being unable to feel courage, the Rigelians (three-arm, three-leg people) were basically computers. In fact they were employed later on as organic proxies for mechanical AIs since the Arisians didn't allow such technology to develop in Civilization. The Eddorians were simply, utterly incapable of peaceful co-existence with another race, they either conquered or destroyed everything and were only stopped when they were exterminated from the universe. So no, these people were not really capable of many of the emotions that we feel (for example, I would be stunned if an Eddorian could feel "shame" or "guilt" or "compassion" at all, or even grasp the notion) and didn't respond to things the way that we do in many cases. Though to be fair, in the Eddorians case, they evolved in a completely different space-time "strata" than we did...my best guess would be the Warp from Warhammer 40,000 judging by their appearance and temperment, making Lensmen the earliest Vs fanfic ever. :P
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

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18-Till-I-Die wrote:Hoth, I'm pretty sure that only Humans were involved in the Arisian breeding program. The other races just evolved that way. None of them were artificial though, even humans, this wasn't genetic engineering it was just the Arisians using the concept of animal husbandry with sentient races...which, as it turns out, worked fine.
The Children of the Lens at least were somehow artificially altered by having two Lensed parents. In the years before that, it was natural selective breeding/eugenics.

And no, the breeding programme concerned all four species (Rigellians, Palainians, Velantians, Tellurians); this is mentioned in Triplanetary, and Children of the Lens is quite specific about all the L2s being the endpoints of similar programmes.
At least I don't recall the other Civilization races being part of the Arisian plan. They were "created", in the sense that they evolved from the stuff the Arisians seeded the universe with, or some such.
Only the humanoid species were descended of Arisan "life-spores". The Arisians were humanoids originally, before they "ascended" into energy beings.
Samuel, the Ice-People (I could never spell their name right) were not even the most bizarre race in Lensmen. You have to understand how incredibly alien some of these people are, even more than just having no concept of bravery. There was at least one race of huge, horse-sized dragons with a hundred eyes on little extendable stalks. There was another race with three arms, three legs, cylinder-like bodies and as far as I can tell NO FUCKING EYES...they "saw" through other senses. Possibly "hear" through them too, since when the main character goes to their homeworld the noise was extremely intense and they didn't really grasp the idea of "too loud" until he explained it to them. The main villains, the Eddorians, were blobs of flesh with no discernable features who repoduced by cell division like some kind of sentient cancers. Most of these races...possibly all of them...can not communicate with one another without telepathy. They're not just people with bumps on their forehead, they're exceedingly different in appearance, society, evolution and mental processes.

Besides the Ice-Men being unable to feel courage, the Rigelians (three-arm, three-leg people) were basically computers. In fact they were employed later on as organic proxies for mechanical AIs since the Arisians didn't allow such technology to develop in Civilization. The Eddorians were simply, utterly incapable of peaceful co-existence with another race, they either conquered or destroyed everything and were only stopped when they were exterminated from the universe. So no, these people were not really capable of many of the emotions that we feel (for example, I would be stunned if an Eddorian could feel "shame" or "guilt" or "compassion" at all, or even grasp the notion) and didn't respond to things the way that we do in many cases. Though to be fair, in the Eddorians case, they evolved in a completely different space-time "strata" than we did...my best guess would be the Warp from Warhammer 40,000 judging by their appearance and temperment, making Lensmen the earliest Vs fanfic ever. :P
Velantians are described as snake-like and thirty feet long, with wings and multiple eye-stalks. And the Lensman setting does have artificial intelligence, as their demonstrated use of unsupervised robots proves. They just do not use it logically and to the fullest.

The Eddorians are basically your ultimately Darwinistic life-form; rather than cooperating harmlessly with others, as is the norm in space opera, they destroy all life that they cannot control absolutely. On the other hand, they are semi-parasitical and require organic servitors, so they cannot wipe out everyone. They always struck me as interesting adversaries, especially given the time in which they were written. They were simply logical and pitiless, rather than moustache twirlers; they were prepared to use human vice against us, but only because it was efficient. When they realised that the idealistic organisation of the good guys, the Lensmen and the Patrol, worked better than their dominance hierarchies, they simply copied it!
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

You may be right, it's been years since I read the Lensmen series. I had always gotten the impression that only humans were somekind of experiment. But even if they were selectively bred it would have to mean the traits they developed were done so for a purpose, so obviously the Arisians figured a race of people made of ice and exotic matter who can't feel courage was somehow a useful asset...and of course they were right, par the course.
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

The Eddorians always terrified me as a concept, because they're so sociopathic. They do this stuff because it's just the way they think. They really don't understand why what they're doing is wrong, they understand they're hurting and murdering people but they just can't connect the dots...people just don't exist for them outside of their own needs.

At least someone like Palpatine or Cobra Commander has a kind of human pathos. The Eddorians are truly monsters in the sense that they just...don't care. Live, die, whatever, as long as you do what they want. It's like an entire race of malignant narcissists.

Which really makes them far more openly evil villains than, say, Cobra or the Galactic Empire. They kind of remind me of what I imagine a world ruled by those transhumanist AI whores would REALLY be like: empty, devoid of human emotion, sociopathic...just that Boskone is ruled by monsters from another dimension instead of machines and their cyborg wannabe sidekicks (I'm looking at you Orion's Arm).
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

Post by NecronLord »

Darth Hoth wrote:Well, I would at least make an exception for New Lensman, the manuscript of which Smith himself approved and gave Ellern written permission to publish. The GURPS book is full of errors and - you guessed it - minimalism, so I could do without that one, but it was, after all, approved by Doc's estate; specifically Verna Smith Trestrail, who was herself deeply involved in the writing of the original series; and it was continuity-checked. Should they not have the right to decide what is in?
I suppose you have a point regarding New Lensman.

The rest - no, not really. There obviously is no 'stated' canon policy, and as a general rule, I'd say if the creator of a single author setting (say, Iain M Banks) doesn't sign off on a spinoff, it's not canonical.

The situation with multi-author works like Perry Rhodan, Star Trek, or even Star Wars, is more complex than that, and that's when you require complicated 'canon policies' Put another way: Authorised by the Wells Estate as Stephen Baxter's sequel to the Time Machine was, I wouldn't say it's canonical for discussions about The Time Machine. I'd also give (at least some) canonical status to anything completed using the manuscript for John Wyndham's sequel to The Midwitch Cuckoos than I would to say, Night of the Triffids which was, AFAIK, made up out of whole cloth by a second author.

The authorised sequels of the Lensman books have a strong status - being variously seen and approved of by Smith, or compiled by his friends - but items like GURPS Lensman, and the anime (oh god) are a very different kettle of fish.

Your mileage may vary, of course, it's essentially a subjective decision.


Anyway, this seems to be veering away from this thread's topic. Would anyone mind if I split this topic into OSF?
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Re: Anti-Alien Racism in the Rebel Alliance?

Post by Darth Hoth »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:You may be right, it's been years since I read the Lensmen series. I had always gotten the impression that only humans were somekind of experiment. But even if they were selectively bred it would have to mean the traits they developed were done so for a purpose, so obviously the Arisians figured a race of people made of ice and exotic matter who can't feel courage was somehow a useful asset...and of course they were right, par the course.
Or, it may be the case that the Eddorians sabotaged Palainian evolution to make them less formidable, as they did with the Velantians. (Relating to their cowardice, that is, hyper-dimensional frigid-blooded poison-breathers obviously have utilities that Tellurian-type humanoids do not.) Children of the Lens notes that were it not for their introvertion, Palainian-type aliens rather than Tellurian-type humans would be the dominant species of the galaxy thanks to their much-superior physical and psychic abilities.
18-Till-I-Die wrote:The Eddorians always terrified me as a concept, because they're so sociopathic. They do this stuff because it's just the way they think. They really don't understand why what they're doing is wrong, they understand they're hurting and murdering people but they just can't connect the dots...people just don't exist for them outside of their own needs.

At least someone like Palpatine or Cobra Commander has a kind of human pathos. The Eddorians are truly monsters in the sense that they just...don't care. Live, die, whatever, as long as you do what they want. It's like an entire race of malignant narcissists.

Which really makes them far more openly evil villains than, say, Cobra or the Galactic Empire. They kind of remind me of what I imagine a world ruled by those transhumanist AI whores would REALLY be like: empty, devoid of human emotion, sociopathic...just that Boskone is ruled by monsters from another dimension instead of machines and their cyborg wannabe sidekicks (I'm looking at you Orion's Arm).
Essentially agreed. Eddorians are one of the better attempts I have read of genuinely alien aliens, to whom human sensibilities and emotions are simply incomprehensible. They go about their affairs with complete detachment, seeking only the most efficient method to create an environment of which they are in complete control. And they are monstrously patient.

And yes, in retrospect they and Boskonia's technocratic dictatorship very much do resemble the Singularitarians and their "transhuman" ideas, down to their Visualisation of the Cosmic All (fits most "super intelligence"-wanking - they are so smart they can predict the future mathematically before it happens) and the fact that they wanted to eliminate the sexes among humanity and create a static monosex culture of technologically assisted servitors. Smith's books continue to amaze me with their sheer creativity and foresight in their view of the future, even if some parts of it are nowadays obsolete.
NecronLord wrote:I suppose you have a point regarding New Lensman.

The rest - no, not really. There obviously is no 'stated' canon policy, and as a general rule, I'd say if the creator of a single author setting (say, Iain M Banks) doesn't sign off on a spinoff, it's not canonical.

The situation with multi-author works like Perry Rhodan, Star Trek, or even Star Wars, is more complex than that, and that's when you require complicated 'canon policies' Put another way: Authorised by the Wells Estate as Stephen Baxter's sequel to the Time Machine was, I wouldn't say it's canonical for discussions about The Time Machine. I'd also give (at least some) canonical status to anything completed using the manuscript for John Wyndham's sequel to The Midwitch Cuckoos than I would to say, Night of the Triffids which was, AFAIK, made up out of whole cloth by a second author.

The authorised sequels of the Lensman books have a strong status - being variously seen and approved of by Smith, or compiled by his friends - but items like GURPS Lensman, and the anime (oh god) are a very different kettle of fish.

Your mileage may vary, of course, it's essentially a subjective decision.

Anyway, this seems to be veering away from this thread's topic. Would anyone mind if I split this topic into OSF?
Well, the Baxter novel is not exactly comparable, given that a hundred years passed between book and sequel :P GURPS Lensman was approved and checked by Smith's daughter, who had actually had a part in writing the original novels and was fairly interested and involved in them.

My view of the franchise is fairly straightforward, based on the Estate's right to creative control and that it was handled by people who actually cared about the franchise and had been in on it originally. As you said, it is pretty much subjective, given that there is no stated "canon policy". But as I see it:

The books that Smith himself wrote are the actual canon, which no other works can contradict.

New Lensman received Smith's personal written approval, after he read the manuscript, thus it has undisputed official status (much like the Star Wars EU).

The authorised sequels and the GURPS book were approved by Trestrail and Smith's estate, and they were checked for continuity, so they have some value, but given that they often contradict the core material (GURPS, at least, and if I hear correctly David Kyle's books had women Lensmen and a lot of other contradictory stuff in them) and do not have Doc's personal blessing they are of less worth. I consider it that they can be used when not in contradiction, but then with caution.

The Japanimation, of course, is not canon, as it has no official approval. Nor are various fanfics and so on.

The upcoming film, I am undecided on as yet.

And yes, if you ask me you can split the Lensman discussion.
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Re: On Lensman-verse Aliens (From PSW)

Post by Teleros »

Back from Egypt, so just going through this thread now...
Are you going to clarify what multidimensional means? Because humans are technically in that category. We do exist in 3 dimensions

The reason bravery exists is because there are different social groups and it helps if members of each group are willing to die for the good of the group. Having their environment being made of liquid helium will not change this. What you would need to do is have a species that doesn't have any group evolution. I have a hard time seeing such a species get to space flight though.
On the multi-dimensional part, here's what Doc Smith had to say about the Palainians:
First Lensman wrote:Or, strictly speaking, he saw a part of his first Palainian; for no three-dimensional creature has ever seen or ever will see in entirety any member of any of the frigid-blooded, poison-breathing races. Since life as we know it - organic, three-dimensional life - is based upon liquid water and gaseous oxygen, such life did not and could not develop upon planets whose temperatures are only a few degrees above absolute zero. Many, perhaps most, of these ultra-frigid planets have an atmosphere of sorts; some have no atmosphere at all. Nevertheless, with or without atmosphere and completely without oxygen and water, life - highly intelligent life - did develop upon millions and millions of such worlds. That life is not, however, strictly three-dimensional. Of necessity, even in the lowest forms, it possesses an extension into the hyper-dimension; and it is this metabolic extension alone which makes it possible for life to exist under such extreme conditions.
This extension makes it possible for a human being to see anything of a Palainian except the fluid, amorphous, ever-changing thing which is his three-dimensional aspect of the moment; makes any attempt at description or portraiture completely futile.
Virgil Samms stared at the Palainian; tried to see what it looked like. He could not tell whether it had eyes or antennae; legs, arms, or tentacles, teeth or beaks, talons or claws or feet; skin, scales, or feathers. It did not even remotely resemble anything that the Lensman had ever seen, sensed, or imagined.
As for bravery... the Palainians describe themselves as cowardly, lazy, deceitful, etc etc etc. "Ignore and be ignored is, as you must already know, the Prime Tenet" says one, whilst Nadreck, one of the 4 Second Stage Lensmen, would always refer to his abilities and power as small or insignificant, despite the fact that his subterfuge and psychological warfare skills (never mind telepathy) make groups like the Culture's Special Circumstances look like bumbling amateurs.
As for space flight and such, remember that both the Arisians and Eddorians regularly interfered in Palainian history, and of course there were "insane" individuals who would contemplate, say, a trip to Arisia to receive a Lens and work in the Galactic Patrol, despite the "personal risk" and "discomfort" that would involve :P . Certainly other races on worlds similar to Palain VII have developed differently - the Eich may have been like them, and they weren't cowards. Kandron & the other Onlonians seemed made of sterner stuff than the Palainians too.
One thing to note is that the narrator (often an in-universe "historian" though, so far from the omniscient narrator you usually get) at one point mentions that, had the Palainians had more human-like characteristics, then they may well have become the most dominant species-type (I say species-type because a lot of things that are physically human evolved on worlds other than other) in Civilisation. Kinnison & the other main characters also get on well with Nadreck and, whilst they don't necessarily understand his point of view (human Lensmen are expected to be Real Men™ and so on), they certainly tolerate & respect it (in fact, Kinnison eventually has to realise that the Lensman Code - that "(human) Lensmen always go in" - must no longer apply to himself if he's to help the Patrol win - if anything Doc Smith was pretty good when it came to the Palainian way of doings things).
If you want to apply human norms to such a thing, start by explaining how natural selection applies to something with completely unknown biology that is in no way related to our own - as far as I know, nothing in our biology operates at four kelvin. For all you know, they reproduce by crystallising out of the ether.
See above. Also note that, whilst their life expectancy was not mentioned, they do live in similar timeframes to humans (eg, they communicate happily to humans - no thousand-year thoughts etc).

DH - I'm not sure we can say for certain where Palainians get their energy from (they must have some physical matter for reproductive purposes for starters), and I tend to ignore anything not written by Doc Smith, but what you said looks fairly good. They colonised Pluto some time before 1492, but we don't know how long it took them to reach that stage of technology (eg, humans would likely be more advanced if we'd evolved half a billion years ago and had it our way ever since).
Well, I would at least make an exception for New Lensman, the manuscript of which Smith himself approved and gave Ellern written permission to publish. The GURPS book is full of errors and - you guessed it - minimalism, so I could do without that one, but it was, after all, approved by Doc's estate; specifically Verna Smith Trestrail, who was herself deeply involved in the writing of the original series; and it was continuity-checked. Should they not have the right to decide what is in?
Haven't read New Lensman, but Moon Prospector was ok and helps with the timeline (200 years between WW3 and Triplanetary IIRC, and by Kinnison's time the Patrol is at least 500 years old), as well as some of the hard sci-fi bits Doc Smith left out (such as the lack of radiators on ships). GURPS Lensman is both very minimalist and not proof-read all that well, whilst I don't think Kyle's attempts worked all that well. Both GURPS and Kyle also take quite a different view to robots & computers than the one Doc Smith took in Triplanetary and Vortex Blaster etc. Ellern's work was approved by Doc Smith, and all the others by his daughter, as the controller of his estate. Me, I'm happy to be a Doc Smith purist, although one day I might get around to going over the non-Doc Smith books in the setting for technical stuff.
Hoth, I'm pretty sure that only Humans were involved in the Arisian breeding program. The other races just evolved that way. None of them were artificial though, even humans, this wasn't genetic engineering it was just the Arisians using the concept of animal husbandry with sentient races...which, as it turns out, worked fine.
Palain VII, Velantia, Rigel IV and Tellus were the four Arisian breeding programs, and the four worlds Gharlane had the most trouble with (not coincidentally of course).
They were "created", in the sense that they evolved from the stuff the Arisians seeded the universe with, or some such.
Most were, although I don't think any species was definitely confirmed as having been the result of the Arisian panspermia program (although in GURPS it's claimed that the Palainians were not a result of it).
You have to understand how incredibly alien some of these people are, even more than just having no concept of bravery. There was at least one race of huge, horse-sized dragons with a hundred eyes on little extendable stalks. There was another race with three arms, three legs, cylinder-like bodies and as far as I can tell NO FUCKING EYES...they "saw" through other senses. Possibly "hear" through them too, since when the main character goes to their homeworld the noise was extremely intense and they didn't really grasp the idea of "too loud" until he explained it to them. The main villains, the Eddorians, were blobs of flesh with no discernable features who repoduced by cell division like some kind of sentient cancers. Most of these races...possibly all of them...can not communicate with one another without telepathy. They're not just people with bumps on their forehead, they're exceedingly different in appearance, society, evolution and mental processes.
The Velantians were 30ft flying dragons capable of performing 11g manoeuvres, with at least 6 (8?) retractable eye-stalks on their heads and scales you needed a power drill to cut through when performing surgery on them. Very good philosophers, and with multi-compartmented minds that let them work on multiple complex tasks at once in a way that humans cannot. The Rigellians meanwhile were described as basically a domed head, oildrum body, four short legs, four mouths & noses on the head, and four branching tentacles as arms. Could not hear, and "saw" in a sort of greyscale telepathic vision. Generally uninterested in space travel when Samms made contact. Society was crazy too: no laws, government, police, armed forces, but currency, advertising and a strong communal work ethic (I'd almost call it idealised communism actually). The Cahuitans were energy-based beings who bred in nuclear vortices (think self-sustaining nuclear fireballs), whilst the Lyranians are telepathic humans from a man-hating matriarchy with basically no culture to speak of as a result (equality of the sexes was one of the hallmarks of Civilisation's member species).
The Eddorians are basically your ultimately Darwinistic life-form; rather than cooperating harmlessly with others, as is the norm in space opera, they destroy all life that they cannot control absolutely. On the other hand, they are semi-parasitical and require organic servitors, so they cannot wipe out everyone. They always struck me as interesting adversaries, especially given the time in which they were written. They were simply logical and pitiless, rather than moustache twirlers; they were prepared to use human vice against us, but only because it was efficient. When they realised that the idealistic organisation of the good guys, the Lensmen and the Patrol, worked better than their dominance hierarchies, they simply copied it!
I don't think that they copied the Patrol much, although both sides stole technology. They did develop their own "Black Lensmen", but that never really got anywhere. As for being parasitic - that's more because they wanted power than because they needed them - Eddorians could have manned all the fortresses around their homeworld, but they just preferred control too much (not to mention, using for Gunner #114 a guy who can out-think a Culture Mind and is a power-hunger sociopathic megalomaniac is a recipe for trouble :lol: ).
And yes, in retrospect they and Boskonia's technocratic dictatorship very much do resemble the Singularitarians and their "transhuman" ideas, down to their Visualisation of the Cosmic All (fits most "super intelligence"-wanking - they are so smart they can predict the future mathematically before it happens)
It was the Arisians who had that "Visualisation of the (Macro)Cosmic All". Mentor described it to Samms as their equivalent to chess - they do it for mental exercise and enjoyment, but also in the case of the war with Eddore to be able to plan effectively. Here's perhaps the most ridiculous quote about it for you, from First Lensman:
In my visualisation a descendent of yours named Clarissa MacDougall will, in a store called Brenleer's upon the planet... but no, let us consider a thing nearer at hand...
...
"Five Tellurian calendar years then, from the instant of your passing through the screen of "The Hill" on this persent journey, you will be... allow me, please, a moment of thought... you will be in a barber shop not yet built; the address of which is to be fifteen hundred fifteen Twelfth Avenue, Spokane, Washington, North America, Tellus. The barber's name will be Antonio Carbonero and he will be left-handed. He will be engaged in cutting your hair. Or rather, the actual cutting will have been done and he will be shaving, with a razor trade-marked "Jensen-King-Byrd", the short hairs in front of your left ear. A comparatively small, quadrupedal, greyish-striped entity, of the race called "cat" - a young cat, this one will be, and called Thomas, although actually of the female sex - will jump into your lap, addressing you pleasantly in a language with which you yourself are only partially familiar. You call it mewing and purring, I believe?"
"Yes," the flabbergasted Samms managed to say. "Cats do purr - especially kittens."
"Ah - very good. Never having met a cat personally, I am gratified at your corroboration of my visualisation. This female youth erroneously called Thomas, somewhat careless in computing the elements of her trajectory, will jostle slightly the barber's elbow with her tail; thus causing him to make a slight incision, approximately three millimetres long, parallel to and just above your left cheekbone. At the precise moment in question, the barber will be applying a styptic pencil to the insignificant wound. This forecast is, I trust, sufficiently detailed so that you will have no difficulty in checking its accuracy or lack thereof?"
...
"These that I have mentioned, the gross occurrences, are problems only for inexperienced thinkers," Mentor paid no attention to Samms' determination never to enter that shop. "The real difficulties lie in the fine detail, such as the length, mass and exact place and position of landing, upon apron or floor, of each of your hairs as it is severed. Many factors are involved. Other clients passing by - opening and shutting doors - air currents - sunshine - wind - pressure, temperature, humidity. The exact fashion in which the barber will flick his shears, which in turn depends upon many other factors - what he will have been doing previously, what he will have eaten and drunk, whether or not his home life will have been happy... you little realise, youth, what a priceless opportunity this will be for me to check the accuracy of my visualisation. I shall spend many periods upon the problem. I cannot achieve perfect accuracy, of course. Ninety-nine point nine nines per cent, let us say... or perhaps ten nines... is all that I can reasonably expect..."
...
...but since you will be wearing your Lens, I myself can and will compare minutely my visualisation with the actuality. For know, youth, that wherever any Lens is, there can any Arisian be if he so desires.
Whilst we never find out if those hairs all land in the "right" spot, Mentor is right about the "gross occurrences", as well as the bit about his descendant Clarissa MacDougall visiting a shop called Brenleer's... on the planet Thrale, which wouldn't be even captured by Civilisation until Kim Kinnison's time, hundreds of years later.
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Re: On Lensman-verse Aliens (From PSW)

Post by Simon_Jester »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Besides the Ice-Men being unable to feel courage, the Rigelians (three-arm, three-leg people) were basically computers. In fact they were employed later on as organic proxies for mechanical AIs since the Arisians didn't allow such technology to develop in Civilization.
Though that's kind of a handwave; the real reason is that Smith didn't think of it. When he wrote the Lensman series, "computer" meant "a guy who computes," not "a machine for computation." Thus, a guy who was really really good with a slide rule would have been called "a good computer" without any sense of linguistic weirdness.

Rigellians being superhumanly good at computation, theyre handy guys to have around when you try to invent a spacegoing AWACS without benefit of the microchip...
________
The Eddorians were simply, utterly incapable of peaceful co-existence with another race, they either conquered or destroyed everything and were only stopped when they were exterminated from the universe.
The analogy to "sentient tumors" is interesting; tumors might think like that if they somehow developed intelligence. They don't live by cooperation with each other; they only develop intelligence and negotiation skills as an additional front in the war of all against all.
________
Darth Hoth wrote:And yes, in retrospect they and Boskonia's technocratic dictatorship very much do resemble the Singularitarians and their "transhuman" ideas, down to their Visualisation of the Cosmic All (fits most "super intelligence"-wanking - they are so smart they can predict the future mathematically before it happens)
Though the Arisians are doing the same super-intelligent trick, and they're better at it than the Eddorians... and they're the good guys. So the Arisians are a good example of a transhuman species passing through the Singularity too; it's just that they got there by a different path (one that we're now reasonably confident is closed to us).
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Re: On Lensman-verse Aliens (From PSW)

Post by Darth Hoth »

I was away visiting relatives myself, so my reply is late, also.
Teleros wrote:As for space flight and such, remember that both the Arisians and Eddorians regularly interfered in Palainian history, and of course there were "insane" individuals who would contemplate, say, a trip to Arisia to receive a Lens and work in the Galactic Patrol, despite the "personal risk" and "discomfort" that would involve :P . Certainly other races on worlds similar to Palain VII have developed differently - the Eich may have been like them, and they weren't cowards. Kandron & the other Onlonians seemed made of sterner stuff than the Palainians too.
Given that the Eich are portrayed as intrinsically indescribable to human minds and are very similar to the Onlonians (I seem to recall Second Stage Lensmen describing them somewhere close to "like Eich, only more so" or thereabouts), who are definitely frigid-blooded poison-breathers with "metabolic extensions into the hyper-dimension," I would say we can be reasonably certain that they are as well. They might even be explicitly described as such in the foreword to Children of the Lens; I do not have the book readily available for checking at the moment, so I am going by memory.
One thing to note is that the narrator (often an in-universe "historian" though, so far from the omniscient narrator you usually get) at one point mentions that, had the Palainians had more human-like characteristics, then they may well have become the most dominant species-type (I say species-type because a lot of things that are physically human evolved on worlds other than other) in Civilisation. Kinnison & the other main characters also get on well with Nadreck and, whilst they don't necessarily understand his point of view (human Lensmen are expected to be Real Men™ and so on), they certainly tolerate & respect it (in fact, Kinnison eventually has to realise that the Lensman Code - that "(human) Lensmen always go in" - must no longer apply to himself if he's to help the Patrol win - if anything Doc Smith was pretty good when it came to the Palainian way of doings things).
The idea about "always going in" I always took more as metaphorical or an illustration of esprit de corps than a hard and fast rule. Otherwise any undercover work or monitoring operations overall would be problematic.

As for the narrator, the "History of Civilization" and its historian appears to be a convention, rather than a fact; the books are certainly not written in the academic historical style (thank Klono), and the narration breaches the fourth wall at least once (Gray Lensman, describing a notional stream of invectives as "unprintable here, even in a modern and realistic novel"). So I could well acept the idea of an omniscient author-narrator.
DH - I'm not sure we can say for certain where Palainians get their energy from (they must have some physical matter for reproductive purposes for starters), and I tend to ignore anything not written by Doc Smith, but what you said looks fairly good. They colonised Pluto some time before 1492, but we don't know how long it took them to reach that stage of technology (eg, humans would likely be more advanced if we'd evolved half a billion years ago and had it our way ever since).
It is possible to bring matter into our space from other universes in Lensman, so the Palainians might take some of their body-mass from there also. But given that they evolved in our space, they should reasonably reproduce their bodies here.

For what it is worth, the GURPS book has them as the first "Guardian" species to be discovered by the Arisians, and it also still has Tallick around to coach Nadreck when he became a Lensman. From Triplanetary we can extrapolate that none of the four species was capable of interstellar travel by the time of Atlantis at least, since by then the Eddorians were troubled by their planets developing anomalously; if they had colonies, those would be mentioned as part of Gharlane's area of responsibility. I am uncertain whether there was anything solid on the Rome-era story to similar effect; in any case, that does put an upper limit on the age of their interstellar empire in the thousands of years older than human culture.
Haven't read New Lensman, but Moon Prospector was ok and helps with the timeline (200 years between WW3 and Triplanetary IIRC, and by Kinnison's time the Patrol is at least 500 years old), as well as some of the hard sci-fi bits Doc Smith left out (such as the lack of radiators on ships). GURPS Lensman is both very minimalist and not proof-read all that well, whilst I don't think Kyle's attempts worked all that well. Both GURPS and Kyle also take quite a different view to robots & computers than the one Doc Smith took in Triplanetary and Vortex Blaster etc. Ellern's work was approved by Doc Smith, and all the others by his daughter, as the controller of his estate. Me, I'm happy to be a Doc Smith purist, although one day I might get around to going over the non-Doc Smith books in the setting for technical stuff.
As I understand it, New Lensman incorporates Moon Prospector as part of the book edition. While I found the writing subpar, I did like some of the technology details (my favourites include the only hard-and-fast firepower figures in the universe, e20 Watts range for Jovian Wars era starship cannon, and the WWIII era lasers that consumed several kilograms of allotropic iron's worth of power in a second - which also incidentally gives a nice estimate on how fast matter-energy conversion goes in those reactors . . .). Taken altogether even the pre-WWIII Lensman Earth is a force to be reckoned with - they could probably beat even Draka's technowank.

The chronology is one of the setting's uncertainties. From Ellern, we know that "centuries" passed between the building of the moon base (which was before WWIII, which GURPS places in 1962 and in any case was not later than 1999) and the events in First Lensman/New Lensman. Then, in The Vortex Blaster, Cloud notes that "atomic power" (which in Lensman means total-conversion engines, rather than fission or fusion) has been in use for over a thousand years. Since this was invented/stolen in Triplanetary and refined by Bergenholm in First Lensman, this means that taken together, Galactic Patrol is set at least twelve hundred years into the future from now, but how much later we cannot know within a century or two.

I have not read the Kyle books; since you apparently have, are they any good? From what you hear on message boards, they seem to make no attempt whatever to maintain continuity, with robot revolutions and freaking ghosts and goblins. The GURPS book suffers from rampant minimalism and at times downright stupidity, and does ignore continuity on a number of points, so it is not my favourite by far (although it does have some high points, notably faster-than-light computing and sunbeams that will scatter Tellus-mass planets; if you are pedantic about it, you can probably explain away its most glaring errors while preserving the good stuff). As for robots, Lensman did have them in Second Stage Lensmen, so that is not just Kyle inventing them out of nowhere.
Most were, although I don't think any species was definitely confirmed as having been the result of the Arisian panspermia program (although in GURPS it's claimed that the Palainians were not a result of it).
The sourcebook implies that Velantians were not, also, I think. As I recall it, the "life-spores" explanation was used to justify why most life in Civilization was human or humanoid (the Arisians themselves having been human-like originally), and Mentor said something to the effect of humanity being Arisia's children.
I don't think that they copied the Patrol much, although both sides stole technology. They did develop their own "Black Lensmen", but that never really got anywhere. As for being parasitic - that's more because they wanted power than because they needed them - Eddorians could have manned all the fortresses around their homeworld, but they just preferred control too much (not to mention, using for Gunner #114 a guy who can out-think a Culture Mind and is a power-hunger sociopathic megalomaniac is a recipe for trouble :lol: ).
It was hinted that the Black Lensmen were a larger corps, who had been waging an undeclared war on Civilization for some time when Kinnison met Melasnikov, built to mimic the Patrol's own Lensmen because the Eddorians were impressed with their performance. I took it that they tried to copy their social model; they did experiment with various means of controlling their subjects indirectly before (from direct mindscrubbing, to political propaganda (left- or right-wing as best suited the planet in question, always extremistic), to merely taking advantage of dupes (like the Petrinos). Of course, their need for secrecy made certain that they could not themselves train their Lensmen like the Arisians did Civilization's, so they ended up weaker.

Oh, and well, if you need underlings to lord over so bad that you traverse space and time and millions of universes to find them, I would say that you need them - psychologically if not physiologically. :P
It was the Arisians who had that "Visualisation of the (Macro)Cosmic All". Mentor described it to Samms as their equivalent to chess - they do it for mental exercise and enjoyment, but also in the case of the war with Eddore to be able to plan effectively. Here's perhaps the most ridiculous quote about it for you, from First Lensman:
SNIP
Whilst we never find out if those hairs all land in the "right" spot, Mentor is right about the "gross occurrences", as well as the bit about his descendant Clarissa MacDougall visiting a shop called Brenleer's... on the planet Thrale, which wouldn't be even captured by Civilisation until Kim Kinnison's time, hundreds of years later.
Oh, I know that one. But it is mentioned that the Eddorians have it as well (in Children of the Lens, certainly), and that the Arisians and Eddorians keep trying to confound each other in their "guessing game". The Children have it also, I think; it is an inherent feature of third-stage stability.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

-George "Evil" Lucas
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