Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

[hongi]

However, the Midichlorians dampen the effects of emotions on it. Thus, the Warp in SW is not as corrupted as in 40K.
Force users are weakened by this (they can not draw as much energy), but it also makes it much safer to use.

If I'm understanding you correctly, midichlorians suppress access to the Warp/Force...but how does Anakin factor into it? He has a prodigous midichlorian count but he's still very powerful.

[NecronLord]

The warp is not the force, nor vice versa.

The history of the warp in 40K is intimately wrapped up in events in its past (eg, the collapse of the Old Ones' star-gate network, for example) and obviously, outside the area of influence of other such powers, it would be somewhat quiescent, and thus easier to wield.

[Darth Hoth]

The warp is not the force, nor vice versa.

Obviously not, but I thought there was a standard vs practice of viewing the supernatural powers of different universes as interconnected and able to affect each other? Otherwise such debates become difficult to resolve.

[Norade]

If indeed the warp is tied to the Old Ones and their actions or even just the breaking of their Star Gate network I would say it should be classified as technology. Actually if the warp were found to be manufactured then I would discount it as super natural. After all if the Star Wars humans weren't given hyper drive they would still be using sleeper ships to move around.

[Imperial Overlord]

There are multiple energy shield types in use that block out Warp powers, not just Geller fields (I think this was mentioned in Draco, quite probably elsewhere as well). Void shields are not (usually, at least) effective against physical projectiles, so they are clearly permeable to various phenomena that Wars shields would keep out.

That's erroneous. Void shields are usually impassable to physical projectiles. There are exceptions (which are topics of debate) but in general void shields are impermeable to physical objects.

[Norade]

The other argument I've seen for Star Wars shields blocking things better than void shields as it seems as if void shields aren't a continuous bubble and have to be moved to cover arcs like a physical shield blocking strikes from a sword or bow. These gaps seem as if they may be more than enough for a daemon to enter through. I may be wrong however, but it is an argument I've heard before.

[Imperial Overlord]

The other argument I've seen for Star Wars shields blocking things better than void shields as it seems as if void shields aren't a continuous bubble and have to be moved to cover arcs like a physical shield blocking strikes from a sword or bow. These gaps seem as if they may be more than enough for a daemon to enter through. I may be wrong however, but it is an argument I've heard before.

That's incorrect. Large objects are covered by an overlapping network of void shields.

[Norade]

The other argument I've seen for Star Wars shields blocking things better than void shields as it seems as if void shields aren't a continuous bubble and have to be moved to cover arcs like a physical shield blocking strikes from a sword or bow. These gaps seem as if they may be more than enough for a daemon to enter through. I may be wrong however, but it is an argument I've heard before.

That's incorrect. Large objects are covered by an overlapping network of void shields.

Do they keep their shields up as they enter the warp? Also, do their shields stop energy in other dimensions as Star Wars shields do?

[NecronLord]

The warp is not the force, nor vice versa.

Obviously not, but I thought there was a standard vs practice of viewing the supernatural powers of different universes as interconnected and able to affect each other? Otherwise such debates become difficult to resolve.

Indeed. But people are trying to draw direct comparisons here/there, in order to determine how it'd work; it's a variation of 'will things work as intended.' Wheras this seems to be akin to "The Culture would beat the Time Lords because no time travel in Cultureverse1!!!1" stuff.

It's safe to say both would probably work as they usually would for vs purpouses, which, depending on the nature of the link (wormhole, etc) may cut the warp users a good hand, in having less warp predators to worry about, but honestly, that's cheating too.

If indeed the warp is tied to the Old Ones and their actions or even just the breaking of their Star Gate network I would say it should be classified as technology. Actually if the warp were found to be manufactured then I would discount it as super natural. After all if the Star Wars humans weren't given hyper drive they would still be using sleeper ships to move around.

It's not manufactured. The Old Ones were primarily magic users, not technologists - the necrontyr's understanding of 'real' science and technology exceeded theirs even from the earliest days. Unfortunately for the necrontyr, such an advantage doesn't really help much when your enemy can step across the galaxy in a moment, while you have to pootle around at lightspeed.

[Connor MacLeod]

The warp is not the force, nor vice versa.

Obviously not, but I thought there was a standard vs practice of viewing the supernatural powers of different universes as interconnected and able to affect each other?

That's so utterly bizarre and retarded I don't believe how you could even begin to think it. For one thing, what evidence establishes such comparisons? you can't just assume its so, otherwise you could make up all sorts of absurd conclusions and contradictions.

For example, if psionic powers in one universe were genetically passed on for some reason or another, would this suddenly mean that Jedi powers become hereditary? Or are Jedi or 40K psykers going to somehow be able to use a Lens? Are Arisians going to be able to become Force ghosts?

Would you go aorund saying that because various universes FTL is called "hyperspace" they must all be the same?

This is what I most often hate about these sorts of debates. People think they know what Suspension of disbelief means, even after reading the websites associated with such analysis, then they come up with dumb ass conclusions like this.

Otherwise such debates become difficult to resolve.

Only if you fail to give the topic any real critical thought or don't undestand the source material.

The Warp in 40K is as fucked up as it is partly because of the warfare of the universe, but also mostly because of the Old Ones genetic fuckery (which we know includes races like the Eldar, but also includes humanity as per the Necron codex) 40K races have been engineered for INCREASED warp access and increased probabilities of psychic phenomena. This created alot of powerful beings capable of fighting hte C'tan via magic, but it also caused alot of negative nasty shit to bleed back into the warp (it goes both ways) Over time, this has lead to the coalescing and creation of various Chaos Gods, and other sorts of nasty problems which lead to the present nature of 40K as it is now.

Other unvierses, such as Star Wars, lack alotof the factors that lead to the 40K Warp being as it is. We can assume that they may have SOME connection to the warp, but a very minimal one - like the tau. (NOT like Pariahs.. thats something completely different.) Its likely to be alot calmer/safer than 40K warp is (initially at least, and in a relative sense). We know psychic activity exists independent of the Force in Star Wars (Black Fleet Crisis, for example), but it is not exactly "common" either.

This means the wnakery of chaos corruption isn't as insidious or long term a threat.. (although as has been discussed numerous times, direct possession/corruption/infection by chaos touched artifacts is still possible. As is good old bribery.)

We can also infer that direct attacks (lightning, fire, warp beams, whatever) would likely work against SW people because they work against inanimate stuff as well as organic stuff (or the tau, who aren't very psychic). Likeiwse, direct action force abilities liike TK will work for the same reason. Mental powers will depend on how they affect/influence the target. Fucking around with the brain may cross over/interact, but if somthing involved, say, interaction with funky shit in the body (or some genetic wankeery. like the warp connections in 40k) to work, then they probably won't.

Like I said, its not that frigging hard to figure out. Warp is assumesd to exist in Star Wars, but probably differs from the Warp in 40K because conditions and circumstances differ. The Force is asusmed to work in 40K even though we've never heard of midi-cholorians existing there. etc etc.

[Connor MacLeod]

Not to be pedantic, but Imperium ships would probably be faster without all the 40k-verse baggage. It's the chaosification of the warp that slows everything down as Navigators have to pick and choose their way through every little current like one huge intergalactic minefield. In a 'clean' warp, it's smooth sailin'.

I wouldn't generalize that. I made that same assumption and had it corrected. There are cases of the fucked up nature of the 40K warp actually pushing ships faster (the "currents" are powerful but predictable and give higher speeds than other places.)

What is likely to be true is that the AVERAGE speed will be faster, and navigation will be easier and more precise since it will (likely, in a relative sense) less turbuluent. They won't have the Astronomican, but they probably won't need it either. They will need maps at least to get anywhere, and probably initially they'll need to use astropathic-assisted navigation to cover the distance. Several times, perhaps an Order of Magnitude faster than it is already, and more consistently faster (no varying between w few hundred/thousand c to millions+ c for example)

I dont know if we relaly know how much faster though. Part of me suspects it might be similar to the Webway, but that's assuming that the Webway (or any other Warp gates) don't do something funky iwth time/space to shorten the trip as it is (since we know in the warp that both time AND space are malleable)

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh, and as for SW ships going into the warp without the protections... it could be, but I'd doubt it. Imperium ships use all manner of protective measures to defend themselves besides the Gellar fields (other force field mechanisms are implied depending on author - like warp shields I think, but I dont remember exact details) On top of that you have all sorts of wards and blessings and enchantments on the hull as well as various special warp-resistant materials incorporated into the hull (cf Farseer) , have priests and techpriests giving chants and blessings.. other crews saying prayers. and evne THEN they act as if dropping into the warp were certain doom. Of course, they have various psykers onboard too which lure daemons n shit...

The closest you could say is the Tau can do that, but we dont even know really what sorts of protections they employ to do it (such as preventing a daemon from manifesting inside the ship, nevermind posessing someone physically. Daemons can actually phyiscaly buckle the hulls of starships in the warp, after all.) AT the best, they get lost without means of navigation. AT worst, they get their souls stripped out and eaten.

[Peptuck]

The closest you could say is the Tau can do that, but we dont even know really what sorts of protections they employ to do it (such as preventing a daemon from manifesting inside the ship, nevermind posessing someone physically. Daemons can actually phyiscaly buckle the hulls of starships in the warp, after all.) AT the best, they get lost without means of navigation. AT worst, they get their souls stripped out and eaten.

IIRC, according to Battlefleet Gothic, they don't so much enter the Warp as they "skim" the "edge" of it. That may not be exactly correct, as I don't have my copy of Battlefleet Gothic's rules here with me, but they don't really enter "all the way" into the Warp the same way the Imperium does.

[Imperial Overlord]

Do they keep their shields up as they enter the warp? Also, do their shields stop energy in other dimensions as Star Wars shields do?

Their shields function in the Warp. I'm not sure what you mean by "stop energy in other dimensions." They affect warp energy, which originates in another dimension if that's what you mean.

[18-Till-I-Die]

The Tau, from what I recall, don't really enter the warp but bounce off the surface. The way it's described I would imagine it's like a stone skipping on a pond--the stone is not really submerged in the water, but skirting across it. In that sense the Tau probably need little protection since they don't go "into" the Warp just "touch" it.

Or put another way, a surface vessel requires less protection to travel than a sub because it only skims the top of the ocean, not submerged in it.

[Azazal]

The Tau, from what I recall, don't really enter the warp but bounce off the surface. The way it's described I would imagine it's like a stone skipping on a pond--the stone is not really submerged in the water, but skirting across it. In that sense the Tau probably need little protection since they don't go "into" the Warp just "touch" it.

Or put another way, a surface vessel requires less protection to travel than a sub because it only skims the top of the ocean, not submerged in it.

Pretty much, from To Unite The Stars Tau shit for BFG, **warning PDF format**

The Tau were able to duplicate the warp drive of
the alien ship but the initial test flights were
disastrous. Achieving transition to the Warp
required more than technology, it required
psychically attuned minds and the Tau race
boasted no psykers. Without them to guide the
transition no amount of power could breach the
dimensional barriers. The best the Tau could do
was make a partial transition, forcing
themselves into the void that separated
Warpspace and real space before they were
hurled out again like a ball held under water
then released.
Data gathered at great cost during the test
flights was studied closely. The Water caste
scientists made the observation that the
boundary between real space and warp space
was not a neat line. It was closer to being a
turbulent ocean fomented by the tempestuous
warp tides below. By carefully angling their
descent toward the Warp and extending the
field generated by the gravitic drive into a wing,
shaped to hold the vessel down a Tau vessel
could extend the duration of the dive
considerably. The speeds achieved in the ascent
back to real space were staggering and this
coupled with the effect of the Warp on time and
space ensured that the real distance covered by
the dive was immense. Early tests lost several
drone ships because they inadvertently passed
far beyond the sensor range of their recovery
vessels.
The details were soon resolved. There was still
a major constraint, only the most powerful (and
bulky) drives could sustain the gravitic wing
throughout the dive and the power drain meant
that considerable recharge time was needed
between dives. Also by comparison to actually
navigating the warp the pace was still very slow.
Taking typical Imperial Warp speeds the Tau
drive was slower by a factor of five. The speed
was consistent though, did not expose the Tau
to the perils of the Warp and enabled the Tau to
expand beyond their home star for the first
time.

[Darksider]

I love that Ethereal's quote at the beginning of the PDF.

You can really tell that these fuckers have no idea how outclassed they are.

[Connor MacLeod]

Tau accessed the warp directly in Kill Team. They used some kind of gate/portal to travel through it./

[Norade]

After the thread was locked I continued to debate one idiot via PM, this is his last post as he pussied out.

Well, it depends on the ammount of payload used. Exterminatus has been known to destroy planets outright, though the Imperium tries to avoid this with all but Chaos tainted worlds, as there is hint of a fabled Terraforming STC. Unless they wanted to completely destroy the planets, then a shielded base or city might hold up depending on how strong the shields would be. The Tau managed to do this (Part of the reason the Damocles crusade was such a failure) so I imagine the GE could as well, as their tech bases are strikingly similar.

Even a simple shield such as the one at Hoth paired with an anti-capital scale weapon that can be purchased on the black market could do well to discourage a fleet, now imagine what a well funded base such as a prefabricated Imperial garrison (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Prefabri ... rison_base).

<Snip>

I said I will deal with this no more.

I saw the pics of the scene you were talking about and since conceeded to you the point seeing the size of the asteroid you were talking about.

Excellent.

Simply seeing one in action can prove that they are more heavily armed. I would need to refer to a Battlefleet Gothic rulebook for exact numbers, but unfortunately I do not own one. Lexicanum again may have some numbers for you. being that a lot of their weapons are ballistic or plasma based though, I can imagine it taking longer for them to breach an ISD's shields. Their armour is built in a fashion that the ships are also designed to ram other ships of the same or larger size, which would require thicker-than-normal plating on most of the front half of the ship to better absorb the impact.

Ramming is space, if that is a tactic commonly used is suicide and even if used by a damaged ship. First off you can broadside well on a ramming course and an ISD can still bring many weapons to bear on a ship doing such an action. We can also not really compare a ram as a good armor base as there is a lot that isn't so heavily armored.

But perhaps it could. Lasguns do have variable power settings as well, so it is possible a Lasgun could penetrate a Storm Trooper's armour. It can take down a Marine on it's maximum setting with some well placed shots, so would imagine that Blasters and Lasguns come in quite close. They are essentially the same thing in a different shell after all.

I'm not saying that they can't get kills, but it will be a difficult thing for both sides.

<snip whining>

I have asked for links so please provide them, I am offended that you will do not put the effort in too match my own.

You asked a question, I answered. I answered in a detailed and thourough fashion, but as I suspected, that still wasn't good enough and you still avoid accepting something and simply press your "Only Star Wars is right" approach.

I ask for numbers and you provide arguments so hollow already you concede on many of them as the evidence comes to light. Simply repeating statements made without numbers will win you nothing.

FYI, Bacta isn't going to help when you're missing a limb or your chest/head/stomach is blown apart in a gorestrewn mess. If it's small enough, they might be able to pop an augmetic on it. And I doubt they'd go Darth Vader on every Storm Trooper that got ripped apart by a Bolter, Autocannon, Assault Cannon, or Heavy Bolter.

No, but nothing will save you from being torn asunder so that is not a point to either side. Even rebels can afford a replacement limb and cloned tissue suplimented by healing in Bacta allow for much higher rates of success than should be possible for the IoM

You're here to debate properly. That's humorous. After namecalling, putting people down, being rude when it's uncalled for, and refusing to listen to anything other than what you want to hear, numbers or no, you tell ME that I need to learn how to debate...

Proper debating isn't all about statistics and right or wrong. It's also about conduct during the debate. Remaining agreeable and being willing to look at things from your opponent's angle is also a part of it. Both things you need to work desperately on. Until you can do that, I'd suggest staying out of debates on Dakka, lest you should run afoul with the mod team and forcibly be shown the door. Just food for thought.

I disagree, a debate is about evidence and numbers, not about being polite. Look at politics and the heckling the throw back and forth and the lack of civility there. I have agreed to look at evidence as you provide it, yet yoiu give no links or any hard numbers as I have repeatedly requested. I'm starting to think you're stalling as you can't find any and are to unskilled to do the maths by yourself.

Anyway, I can see that you're just looking to turn this from a debate into a namecalling match. I have no need nor any desire to stoop to such a low level, so I'm cutting off this debate effective immediately. It does sadden me some though, you seemed like a decent person for a little while. But now the veil's off and I can see you're not someone I'm interested in talking to. Hopefully this is a lesson learned for you in regard to people skills, though I'm skeptical of that. Nonetheless, good luck and hopefully we'll be able to talk again when you're a more civil person. Dont bother responding to this, as you'll be unable to send me PMs from here on in until I decide otherwise.

Best wishes.

Way to whine and be a poor loser, I have asked you for numbers and you pussied out.

[Shroom Man 777]

No, but nothing will save you from being torn asunder so that is not a point to either side. Even rebels can afford a replacement limb and cloned tissue suplimented by healing in Bacta allow for much higher rates of success than should be possible for the IoM

To be fair, the Imperium also regularly refits injured soldiers with cybernetics. I recall a few of the injured Valhallans in the Cain books (and other soldiers in other books) got artificial limbs, and one even got an artificial lung that could only be noticed because the soldier's breathing sounded different (and not because the trooper got his face covered by some respirator and had some videogame console bolted on to his armored chest like Darth Vader or something).

I actually think cybernetics technology is more advanced in 40k since while the likes of General Grievous and Darth Vader in SW are considered abstrosities, in the Imperium you've got an entire omnipresent caste of people doing far more radical procedures to themselves all the time.

Affluent Rogue Traders in the Imperium, for example, routinely festoon themselves with cybernetics. In the Eisenhorn books, a Trader named Maxilla got filled with lead but easily survived since he had more metal than meat in him.

Does Star Wars even have rejuvenat treatments that allow people to live for hundreds of years? If I recall correctly, even their richest people just grow old and die naturally of age.

EDIT:

If I recall correctly, didn't a soldier in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels get a bit of his head blown off and ended up having it replaced with cybernetic brain-stuff that made him a bit... dumber?

Hell, don't even subhuman fodder like Ogryns routinely get cyborged? I don't know about SW's EU, but it seems like these things are actually more common-place in 40k.

[Lost Soal]

EDIT:

If I recall correctly, didn't a soldier in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels get a bit of his head blown off and ended up having it replaced with cybernetic brain-stuff that made him a bit... dumber?

Doomor got Cybernetic eyes, Meert a cheap replacement jaw, Varl a new arm and shoulder and Faygor a replacement larynx.
The one your thinking of was Kolea, who got blasted with a flechette gun, I don't recall any cybernetic going in he was just brain damaged and lost his personality.

[Norade]

No, but nothing will save you from being torn asunder so that is not a point to either side. Even rebels can afford a replacement limb and cloned tissue suplimented by healing in Bacta allow for much higher rates of success than should be possible for the IoM

To be fair, the Imperium also regularly refits injured soldiers with cybernetics. I recall a few of the injured Valhallans in the Cain books (and other soldiers in other books) got artificial limbs, and one even got an artificial lung that could only be noticed because the soldier's breathing sounded different (and not because the trooper got his face covered by some respirator and had some videogame console bolted on to his armored chest like Darth Vader or something).

I actually think cybernetics technology is more advanced in 40k since while the likes of General Grievous and Darth Vader in SW are considered abstrosities, in the Imperium you've got an entire omnipresent caste of people doing far more radical procedures to themselves all the time.

Affluent Rogue Traders in the Imperium, for example, routinely festoon themselves with cybernetics. In the Eisenhorn books, a Trader named Maxilla got filled with lead but easily survived since he had more metal than meat in him.

Does Star Wars even have rejuvenat treatments that allow people to live for hundreds of years? If I recall correctly, even their richest people just grow old and die naturally of age.

EDIT:

If I recall correctly, didn't a soldier in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels get a bit of his head blown off and ended up having it replaced with cybernetic brain-stuff that made him a bit... dumber?

Hell, don't even subhuman fodder like Ogryns routinely get cyborged? I don't know about SW's EU, but it seems like these things are actually more common-place in 40k.

It seems that citizens of the GE have a cultural thing against cybernetics much of the time and opt for cloned tissue as a first choice. However we have less extreme examples of Lobot, and Quarl (sp?) ; from the Young Jedi Knights of spear throwing fame, as well as Luke as examples of characters in the universe we know to have had such surgery done. As far As living longer goes, Pelleon is still active in the Navy well into his nineties and in seemingly good health.

It is also widely believed that Star Wars has the superior disease control and general medical edge over 40k.

[Shroom Man 777]

That's because 40k's diseases feed and empower malingering gods from beyond the sane realities of the world, who further spread and infest the species of the galaxy with eldritch pathogens and contagions in their sheer infinite malice.

Ciaphas Cain is two hundred years old and can still have swordfights with mutated claw-sporting mutite Space Hitlers.

[Enosh]

Eisenhorn was also quite over 200 iirc
I don't realy remember other characters that had their age mentioned. Yarrick is refered to as a "old man" but is it anywhere said how old he actualy is?
and that's just "normal humans"

[Shroom Man 777]

I believe there are actually 40k dudes who are as old as Yoda, if not older.