SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VIII

[Siege]

I think it would be an interesting dynamic if there were two nations present, neither of which likes the other much but they both still are far more paranoid of the outside world. Sort of a "they're bastards but they're our bastards" sentiment if you like. That way neither would lean toward either alliance*, which would just make the whole excercise pointless.

* Or Japanistan for that matter; personally I think it would be boring (not to mention nonsensical) if many non-aligned nations immediately flocked to Japanistan. The Sunshine Council might be nominally neutral but they also have a reputation as having supported the Sheppos, having fought on the wrong side in the WotW, and just generally being right bastards involved in far too many dubious goings-on for that to make much sense.

[Steve]

[16:09] sbbigsteve: Looking at the size of the NZ South Island on the map, it alone would work as the Tsardom.
[16:10] sbbigsteve: We could have the other island a longstanding political rival, perhaps a Kingdom in real power with a Tsardom-level population, that also remains neutral but would be hostile to Japanistan.
[16:10] sbbigsteve: It was already autarkic* when the Pathogen War happened so its economy didn't suffer as badly.
[16:11] sbbigsteve: In the old days it was Astaria's only likely military ally (not counting Japanistan's opportunistic two-power alliance) because they were both hostile to the aforementioned Tsardom.
[16:12] sbbigsteve: It may have even been the last of the nations of the world to legally outlaw slavery, maybe in the 1940s when the Allies dominated the world and they could no longer play other countries against Japanistan and Astaria.
[16:14] sbbigsteve: (This referring to the second nation on the "North Island", not the Tsardom I'd already proposed).
[16:14] RogueIce2k3: Indeed. And it could be a reason why the Tsardom gets into bed with Japanistan: they figure such an alliance might, one day, let them take over their northern neighbor.
[16:14] sbbigsteve: Eastern.
[16:14] sbbigsteve: I rotated the New Zealand islands, remember?


* and isolationist


That said, SiegeTank's remarks do make sense. However, the Tsardom power might very well eventually decide Japanistan would be an acceptable ally.

[Siege]

I say that if they decide Japanistan is an acceptable ally they should do so in the game, rather than including that as backstory. It could make for an interesting political struggle: parts of the establishment would be far more comfortable with "the devil you know", as it were, and would instead attempt to bring east and west together rather than seeking outside allies. Meanwhile this kingdom might contemplate some form of pre-emptive action as the signing of the pact with Japanistan looms closer, etc. Plenty interesting opportunities there.

[Bluewolf]

[quote]However, the Tsardom power might very well eventually decide Japanistan would be an acceptable ally.[/quote

I know Japanistan is considered the "enemy" and all that and I may be a noob to this game but why is that such a bad thing? Is there something wrong with letting Japanistan get anywhere? Do they act like Shep or something?

[Siege]

Short story: they're paranoid, conniving, piracy-sponsoring, death squad-supplying, warmongering, moustache-twirling covert-imperialist kitten-murderers.

[Bluewolf]

Like the current alliances then.

*rimshot*

Jk, OK, I just wondered. I am just a bit iffy about crushing someone because its a bit questionable, policy wise. I dunno though.

[Steve]

They are also Sea Skimmer's created faction and he annoyed most of the players with his refusal to use the points system drawn up by Beo and Coyote and instead built his own military using RL OrBats and calculation, making Japanistan the most militarily powerful state in the world with about the largest Air Force and largest Army.

And, well, as was said, they're hypocrites who scream about MESS/CATO imperialism while having blatantly engaged in imperialism themselves, they send eight year old Sumatran boys to forced labor gulags in the deep jungle to die of malaria for reading "contraband", they deported thousands of Velerians from al-Akharabat to Sumatra for a similar fate, they tortured and murdered innocent fishermen because they strayed too close to Japanistani waters, they allied with the world's only openly slave-holding nation when its permitting of enslavement of foreign nationals was revealed by the Star of Sweethaven mutiny because they didn't want other nations to put Astaria on the receiving end of a coalition clusterfuck (a nation that even their only other ally was preparing to go postal on), and they generally exist to aggrandize their state at all costs and to rattle sabers whenever someone tries to impede them.

They also murder cute little kittens. THINK OF THE KITTIES!!!

[Bluewolf]

Oh I see. I hate the sound of that. So basically they are a China/NK on steroids?

[Siege]

No, more like Imperial Japan from WW2. Who'da guessed?

[Bluewolf]

Damn, the name is so obscure thatI could of never of guessed. :p

[Raj Ahten]

I say that if they decide Japanistan is an acceptable ally they should do so in the game, rather than including that as backstory. It could make for an interesting political struggle: parts of the establishment would be far more comfortable with "the devil you know", as it were, and would instead attempt to bring east and west together rather than seeking outside allies. Meanwhile this kingdom might contemplate some form of pre-emptive action as the signing of the pact with Japanistan looms closer, etc. Plenty interesting opportunities there.

Well with the end of the FTO, Japanistan is now the only viable "third way" in town. Indhopal has always been very interested in keeping itself well clear of the old continent powers and courting such nations as are being added might be very appealing.

But doing so is not with out risks.

EDIT: And as to why shack up with japanistan despite its record? They don't take any shit and are apparently willing to back nations that stand up to the major powers.

Their extra curricular activities may however sour our relationship......

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

There are three different Japan expies in this game. Japanistan's already been mentioned as being World War II-era Imperial Japan with enough knockoffs of Russian hardware to choke the entire Old Continent through sheer force of numbers. Zoria is essentially the unholy love child of postwar Japan and the various Scandinavian nations. Langley is essentially the worst parts of modern Japan mixed with the worst parts of Argentina, Israel, South Korea, the Philippines, Taiwan, and the United States.

[Steve]

There are three different Japan expies in this game. Japanistan's already been mentioned as being World War II-era Imperial Japan with enough knockoffs of Russian hardware to choke the entire Old Continent through sheer force of numbers. Zoria is essentially the unholy love child of postwar Japan and the various Scandinavian nations. Langley is essentially the worst parts of modern Japan mixed with the worst parts of Argentina, Israel, South Korea, the Philippines, Taiwan, and the United States.

I thought Langley was basically Japan's anime industry tied to an entire nation led by anime series protagonists?

[RogueIce]

EDIT: And as to why shack up with japanistan despite its record? They don't take any shit and are apparently willing to back nations that stand up to the major powers.

Their extra curricular activities may however sour our relationship......

Keep in mind, too, that most of those activites are not known to anyone. The closest thing is piracy supporting, but it's highly unlikely the NFT or UCSR are going to go public with that. The rest of what Siege said is pretty well unknown. Various intel agencies may have their theories but can't prove squat.

As to what Steve posted, all that was prior to the little coup thingy they had shortly after Astaria and Shepistan died and Skimmer left the game. So they can blame the Old Sunshine Council (or whoever) for that, while the New Sunshine Council maintains their relative innocence.

So really, there's not a lot of reason for some National Socialist Tsardom with designs on their neighbor and distrust of the two major alliances to not pursue an alliance with Japanistan. Outside of some OOC hating on the Empire.

[Raj Ahten]

Hey Seigetank, instead of me having to spend a crap ton in researching a new bomber design would you be willing to sell me a licensee for the F-111X, or if not that just more airframes? I'm also interested in the higher end versions of the Silver Shreik and your new orbital bomber design that can take off from a runway. Indhopal is also looking to buy more airframes to turn into large tankers and AWACS planes. For these airframes I'm also willing to take bids from other nations, but I don't think too many people are willing to sell to me anymore.

I am willing to give guarantees that Japanistan won't be getting the designs or the tech that goes into what people sell me. (whatever I develop on my own, such as my Raptor clone the Grffon is fair game though.)

PS: Seigetank whats going on with that super fast interceptor we were doing joint development work on?

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

There are three different Japan expies in this game. Japanistan's already been mentioned as being World War II-era Imperial Japan with enough knockoffs of Russian hardware to choke the entire Old Continent through sheer force of numbers. Zoria is essentially the unholy love child of postwar Japan and the various Scandinavian nations. Langley is essentially the worst parts of modern Japan mixed with the worst parts of Argentina, Israel, South Korea, the Philippines, Taiwan, and the United States.

I thought Langley was basically Japan's anime industry tied to an entire nation led by anime series protagonists?

Like I said, the worst parts of modern Japan. Someone had to pick up that hat and wear it, though; Japanistani animu would invariably be jingoistic garbage not worth much except for the "so bad it's good" value, while the Zorians don't seem very keen on the idea of corrupting the world's youth with androgynous bishounen, tentacle rape, giant robots, lolis, and all that jazz. The parts about Argentina, Israel, South Korea, the Philippines, Taiwan, and the United States do warrant explanation, though.

The backstory of the Duchy of Langley (which I haven't committed fully to the SDN World Wiki yet) after independence is filled with plenty of military coups, dictatorial rule, and economic crises, kinda like Argentina after Juan Peron got booted. Langley has traditionally been dependent on the MESS for its arms and maintains a fairly large military for its size, somewhat like Israel and (to a lesser extent) Taiwan, how they go to America for their arms, and how they keep rather large militaries for their respective sizes. Ethnically, Koreans and Filipinos make up the majority of Langley's citizens. Everyone speaks American English and hold some culturally American values (military worship and consumerism come to mind).

[RogueIce]

Ok, since somebody who's name begins with "Lone" and ends with "star" just asked if Rufus Shinra is wheelchair bound, let me assure you all now that this is not the case. Furthermore, there is no "geostigma" plague or Jenova cells or anything like that.

Pretty much everything in Shroom's little screed about the Shinra Republic is, at best, PM Shroom simply talking out of his ass for the hell of it. Or he's extremely delusional. Either way, it's not true.

[Raj Ahten]

EDIT: And as to why shack up with japanistan despite its record? They don't take any shit and are apparently willing to back nations that stand up to the major powers.

Their extra curricular activities may however sour our relationship......

Keep in mind, too, that most of those activites are not known to anyone. The closest thing is piracy supporting, but it's highly unlikely the NFT or UCSR are going to go public with that. The rest of what Siege said is pretty well unknown. Various intel agencies may have their theories but can't prove squat.

As to what Steve posted, all that was prior to the little coup thingy they had shortly after Astaria and Shepistan died and Skimmer left the game. So they can blame the Old Sunshine Council (or whoever) for that, while the New Sunshine Council maintains their relative innocence.

So really, there's not a lot of reason for some National Socialist Tsardom with designs on their neighbor and distrust of the two major alliances to not pursue an alliance with Japanistan. Outside of some OOC hating on the Empire.

That is true, but Indhopal still has some distrust coming from the fact that our form of government is totally different from Japanistan's. Plus Seigetank has clued me in to the piracy issue and there is some evidence that Japanistan was involved with the leaders of the RUF. Overall though it isn't enough to be considered a serious issue yet.

edit: for spelling and to clean up a sentence or two.

[Beowulf]

Ok, since somebody who's name begins with "Lone" and ends with "star" just asked if Rufus Shinra is wheelchair bound, let me assure you all now that this is not the case. Furthermore, there is no "geostigma" plague or Jenova cells or anything like that.

Pretty much everything in Shroom's little screed about the Shinra Republic is, at best, PM Shroom simply talking out of his ass for the hell of it. Or he's extremely delusional. Either way, it's not true.

Obviously he's high on shrooms. Possibly their national drug.

[Siege]

Keep in mind, too, that most of those activites are not known to anyone. The closest thing is piracy supporting, but it's highly unlikely the NFT or UCSR are going to go public with that.

Indhopal may not be able to prove it, but we dropped a pretty big hint as to the fact that we believe Japanistan is sponsoring pirates and weapons smugglers, and there's the fact that ISIA got the drop on that Japanistani intelligence fellow who was trying to get the RUF to pull some crap.

Hey Seigetank, instead of me having to spend a crap ton in researching a new bomber design would you be willing to sell me a licensee for the F-111X, or if not that just more airframes?

We haven't produced any Super Aardvarks recently so I think the production line ought to be closed, but I can definitely sell you the license. The F-111X comes in an interceptor and a bomber variant.

I'm also interested in the higher end versions of the Silver Shreik and your new orbital bomber design that can take off from a runway.

The S-2 Silver Star, the upgraded version of the Silver Streak, is for sale (and compatible with most of the stuff you'll have bought to support and maintain your Streaks). S-3 Silver Star, the SSTO aerospacecraft, is still in the prototype stage. The actual-factual thing won't fly until 2019 at the earliest. At that point I'd be willing to sell 'em to you, but I'd need some pretty damned solid guarantees that they won't end up in Japanistani hands. I do not need cheap knock-offs threatening world peace...

Indhopal is also looking to buy more airframes to turn into large tankers and AWACS planes. For these airframes I'm also willing to take bids from other nations, but I don't think too many people are willing to sell to me anymore.

We build an indigenous KC-767, but our current batch of AEW&C planes were purchased from Byzantium so I'm not sure I can help you there. We're in the process of developing a medium-sized supersonic ELINT plane, but that's still a ways off.

PS: Seigetank whats going on with that super fast interceptor we were doing joint development work on?

Probably fell by the wayside... I barely even remember that.

Pretty much everything in Shroom's little screed about the Shinra Republic is, at best, PM Shroom simply talking out of his ass for the hell of it. Or he's extremely delusional. Either way, it's not true.

You really shouldn't have named your country the Shinra Republic... That's just asking for it!

(See Shroom? I told you )

[Raj Ahten]

Hey Seigetank, instead of me having to spend a crap ton in researching a new bomber design would you be willing to sell me a licensee for the F-111X, or if not that just more airframes?

We haven't produced any Super Aardvarks recently so I think the production line ought to be closed, but I can definitely sell you the license. The F-111X comes in an interceptor and a bomber variant.

Well lets draw up some terms then Indhopal is interested in the bomber variant.

I'm also interested in the higher end versions of the Silver Shreik and your new orbital bomber design that can take off from a runway.

The S-2 Silver Star, the upgraded version of the Silver Streak, is for sale (and compatible with most of the stuff you'll have bought to support and maintain your Streaks). S-3 Silver Star, the SSTO aerospacecraft, is still in the prototype stage. The actual-factual thing won't fly until 2019 at the earliest. At that point I'd be willing to sell 'em to you, but I'd need some pretty damned solid guarantees that they won't end up in Japanistani hands. I do not need cheap knock-offs threatening world peace...

You can certainly get your garuntees. What do you have in mind? Indhopal has a defensive pact with Japanistan with quite limited tech sharing at the moment. I'm certainly not their puppet. Just how far japanistan is willing to push Indhopal on issue of tech sharing is unclear, but I plan to stand firm on such issues. I'm not going to break my word to Indhopal's biggest trading partner and neighbor. My close relations with the NFT are also something of an insurance policy against CATO so I certainly don't want to cancel it!

Indhopal is also looking to buy more airframes to turn into large tankers and AWACS planes. For these airframes I'm also willing to take bids from other nations, but I don't think too many people are willing to sell to me anymore.

We build an indigenous KC-767, but our current batch of AEW&C planes were purchased from Byzantium so I'm not sure I can help you there. We're in the process of developing a medium-sized supersonic ELINT plane, but that's still a ways off.

I'm intersted in the tankers, I need 24 new ones or so; its unfortunate to hear about the AWACS though. Perhaps I could buy an airframe and convert it to an AWACS role myself?

PS: Seigetank whats going on with that super fast interceptor we were doing joint development work on?

Probably fell by the wayside... I barely even remember that.

Well maybe all the funds went into the S-2 and S-3 research.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

If Indhopal is interested, Langley offers the R-99 family of AWACS, remote sensing, and maritime patrol craft, though they may be a bit small for the needs of the Indhopali military.

[phongn]

Indhopal is also looking to buy more airframes to turn into large tankers and AWACS planes. For these airframes I'm also willing to take bids from other nations, but I don't think too many people are willing to sell to me anymore.

We sell to everyone!

[TimothyC]

EDIT: SABRE engines? Good luck on the R&D for that.

Alaska has working Turbo-Scram-Rockets, and Not a single person complained.

[Siege]

Well lets draw up some terms then Indhopal is interested in the bomber variant.

Alright, well, let's say we sell you a 15-year production license on the bomber variant for an unspecified but fair sum (I have no clue how much something like that would cost). You can produce as many as you want, for a modest per-airframe cut, and a slightly larger cut of any profits should you sell the aircraft to any foreign nation. There'll be a stipulation forbidding sales to Japanistan or any MESS country, but I doubt that'll be an issue.

You can certainly get your garuntees. What do you have in mind?

We'd prefer the Japanistani's don't even so much as get a look at the exterior of the thing. Ultimately though a guarantee on that subject will have to do, we can't very well have inspectors crawling around your air bases looking for possible spies now can we?

I'm intersted in the tankers, I need 24 new ones or so; its unfortunate to hear about the AWACS though. Perhaps I could buy an airframe and convert it to an AWACS role myself?

I'll happily sell you 24 tankers. And if you can make the AWACS conversion work then sure, why not -- I'll gladly sell you those airframes too. The KC-767 is certainly large enough.

Well maybe all the funds went into the S-2 and S-3 research.

Yeah, most of our R&D money goes to rockets and spacecraft these days...