The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[ZGundam]

The problem isn't the absolute quantity of sci-fi that you watch, but rather, the ratio of sci-fi you're absorbing compared to the amount of real science that you're absorbing.

Then I am glad you are here to set me straight.

BTW, I noticed you completely glossed over me saying 'The Great Darth Wong'

[Darth Wong]

The problem isn't the absolute quantity of sci-fi that you watch, but rather, the ratio of sci-fi you're absorbing compared to the amount of real science that you're absorbing.

Then I am glad you are here to set me straight.

BTW, I noticed you completely glossed over me saying 'The Great Darth Wong'

Would you prefer it if I decided to shower you with verbal abuse for your obviously sarcastic comment, and then try to make your life here miserable by building up some kind of grudge against you?

[ZGundam]

Um, I was kidding with you.

I will make sure that in the future I make no references to you or anyone else directly unless I am responding to a direct question.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Well, actually, the idea is workable, with some modification. Consider, Heaven and Hell are both shrinking, all the while releasing energy. Presumably, the matter in the bubble dimensions is somehow being converted into free energy. It is entirely possible that someone might figure out how this works, and devise a mechanism to exploit the process for destructive purpose. E.x. perhaps you could somehow use the collapse of a portal to cause objects trapped inside to be rapidly converted into energy. Even just converting a few grams of matter would trigger a multiple kiloton release of energy. The trick, of course, would be getting it to come out of the right side.

As Morbo would say, MATTER DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

From what we have observed so far, Portals do not have an 'inside', and they do not appear to have a matter-energy conversion ability. So far they have only TRANSLATED matter from one dimensional space to another. Matter-to-energy sounds good in scifi, but really we can already do better by shooting a 200-kiloton nuke through a portal. Tapping into the energy of a dimensional bubble MIGHT be feasible, but its called Zero Point Energy, and it is harder than fusion to accomplish.

[Baughn]

That would be fascinating.

I agree that portal collapses are unlikely to cause any great energy releases, but there are too many things we don't know about them to rule it out entirely. Conservation laws do not necessarily hold, since a portal is not a closed system; they pass through some sort of inter-universe space (inflation space?), and we have no idea what happens there.

[Gogyra]

As Morbo would say, MATTER DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

From what we have observed so far, Portals do not have an 'inside', and they do not appear to have a matter-energy conversion ability. So far they have only TRANSLATED matter from one dimensional space to another. Matter-to-energy sounds good in scifi, but really we can already do better by shooting a 200-kiloton nuke through a portal. Tapping into the energy of a dimensional bubble MIGHT be feasible, but its called Zero Point Energy, and it is harder than fusion to accomplish.

- You can not break a wing on a two dimensional object. If the portal were an infinitely thin boundary, Uriel would have sliced his wing clean off. Therefore, the portal must have some "inside" to it.
- While portals have not demonstrated the ability to convert matter to energy, the shrinking bubble universes have. A "portal bomb" could work off the same principle.

[ZGundam]

Combine a portal bomb with a smartass AI saying something like: 'Hello, I am Portal Bomb #1, but you can call me Bob. I have been instucted to tell you that you are (screwed, totally fucked, in alot of trouble) in approxamitly(sp?) 30 seconds. Running, flying or Portalling has been disrupted so please do not try. 10 seconds left. Have a nice day!'

Well, we know this wont happy, but it would have been amusing.

[Darth Wong]

- You can not break a wing on a two dimensional object. If the portal were an infinitely thin boundary, Uriel would have sliced his wing clean off. Therefore, the portal must have some "inside" to it.

Since there is no such thing as an established physics of two-dimensional objects, I would love to know how you derived these predictions.

- While portals have not demonstrated the ability to convert matter to energy, the shrinking bubble universes have. A "portal bomb" could work off the same principle.

Since I actually came up with the idea of the bubble universes shrinking in order to preserve the first law of thermodynamics despite an omnipresent energy release, I would like to point out that the concept is not the same thing as spontaneous conversion of matter to energy.

[CaptainChewbacca]

- You can not break a wing on a two dimensional object. If the portal were an infinitely thin boundary, Uriel would have sliced his wing clean off. Therefore, the portal must have some "inside" to it.

Why? What laws of are you adhering two that establishes the necessity of depth? Why can't it be a shearing plane?

- While portals have not demonstrated the ability to convert matter to energy, the shrinking bubble universes have. A "portal bomb" could work off the same principle.

Bubble universes have only demonstrated converting energy to matter. There hasn't been any incidences of it going the other way.

[Samuel]

Combine a portal bomb with a smartass AI saying something like: 'Hello, I am Portal Bomb #1, but you can call me Bob. I have been instucted to tell you that you are (screwed, totally fucked, in alot of trouble) in approxamitly(sp?) 30 seconds. Running, flying or Portalling has been disrupted so please do not try. 10 seconds left. Have a nice day!'

Well, we know this wont happy, but it would have been amusing.

This is the US military. They compensate for a lack of good one liners with firepower. Or is that the Russian military?

Also, why use a time bomb? That is just stupid- it gives them time to portal it away.

[ZGundam]

Combine a portal bomb with a smartass AI saying something like: 'Hello, I am Portal Bomb #1, but you can call me Bob. I have been instucted to tell you that you are (screwed, totally fucked, in alot of trouble) in approxamitly(sp?) 30 seconds. Running, flying or Portalling has been disrupted so please do not try. 10 seconds left. Have a nice day!'

Well, we know this wont happy, but it would have been amusing.

This is the US military. They compensate for a lack of good one liners with firepower. Or is that the Russian military?

Also, why use a time bomb? That is just stupid- it gives them time to portal it away.

ok, then how about just saying ''Hello, I am Portal Bomb #1, but you can call me Bob. I'm going to blow up now' BOOM!

No angel would be fast enough to do it in 1 second.

[Samuel]

You mean like how quickly Uriel reacted? Or do you think the interceptor missiles were taking their sweet time?

[ZGundam]

You mean like how quickly Uriel reacted? Or do you think the interceptor missiles were taking their sweet time?

Well he knew they were on their way and had several seconds. Can you have a bomb go off with several miliseconds after being delivered via portal and having it shut in time?

[Baughn]

Just because Uriel broke his wing on the portal, does not mean the portal isn't two-dimensional.

In the first place, "three-dimensional object" and "can break wing on" are not remotely related. The former is obvious, but what the latter actually means is that there is some force-field (electromagnetics, in the usual case; probably gravity for portals) preventing you from approaching too closely to the object.

There is absolutely no reason a two-dimensional object can't have such a field. The field will be three-dimensional; the object need not be.

[Gogyra]

Since there is no such thing as an established physics of two-dimensional objects, I would love to know how you derived these predictions.

There is no established physics of two dimensional objects because a two dimensional object has no established basis in physics.

The macro-scale event of "touch" is a manifestation of the electro-magnetic force - as atoms come closer together, the tiny E field created by the different in position of the positively charge nucleus and negatively charged electron shells causes mutual repulsion. You can't simply say that the object is somehow two dimensional and yet still able to be "touched", as zero thickness implies that the object's E field is a constant 0 right up until the exact plane in space the object occupies, at which point the field discontinuously jumps to a non-zero value. That would be a violation of Maxwell's laws.


On the other hand, it is possible that there is no "inside" of the portal, and it simply causes translation in space, rather than acting like a tunnel. However, there would still be a three dimensional "rim" of the portal, on which it is possible to break wings.

There is absolutely no reason a two-dimensional object can't have such a field. The field will be three-dimensional; the object need not be.

On a micro-scale, there are only one dimensional objects and fields. If a macroscopic object has, as you say, a "force field" that other objects can touch, then it is, macroscopically, 3-d. The very property of having such a field is what makes everything we see appear to be a 3 dimensional object, instead of a collection of points.

Since I actually came up with the idea of the bubble universes shrinking in order to preserve the first law of thermodynamics despite an omnipresent energy release, I would like to point out that the concept is not the same thing as spontaneous conversion of matter to energy.

I guess I might have misunderstood what's going on with the bubbles. I had assumed that, as the bubble universe shrunk, is was slowly consuming the matter contained in it. If this is not the case, what is happening to the matter inside the bubble as it shrinks? And what mechanism is providing the energy?

[Gogyra]

double post

[bcoogler]

Combine a portal bomb with a smartass AI saying something like: 'Hello, I am Portal Bomb #1, but you can call me Bob. I have been instucted to tell you that you are (screwed, totally fucked, in alot of trouble) in approxamitly(sp?) 30 seconds. Running, flying or Portalling has been disrupted so please do not try. 10 seconds left. Have a nice day!'

Well, we know this wont happy, but it would have been amusing.

Sounds like you are channeling Dark Star, a 1970's SF movie. One of the ship's smart bombs malfunctions, and begins a countdown while still inside the bomb bay. The crew literally try to talk the bomb out of exploding. This seems to work until the bomb says, "Let there be light."

EDIT: Or Space Balls. Take your pick.

[Baughn]

If you look a little deeper, those "particles" don't exist in the first place; it's all just quantum-mechanical fields. Which also implies that there are no two-dimensional objects, yes, except that the portals imply multiply connected space; there has to be a discontinuity in there somewhere. Physics being what it is, however, that discontinuity is probably hidden by an event horizon; going by standard wormhole physics, the event horizon would be the same kind you find around a white hole - exit's possible, entry isn't.

Well, never mind that. The main point is that portals don't appear to have any actual inside, or at least wouldn't convert mass to energy. I don't think we really disagree on any points regarding real-life physics, at least.

Personally I'd suspect that portals do have an inside, just a really, really tiny one; on the level of those extra spatial dimensions string theory is so fond of. It has to bridge inter-universal space somehow, after all. But it's not like that would allow matter to be converted to energy; a collapsing portal would probably just pinch off the connection in the middle, leaving any objects currently passing through it in two halves.

[Ted C]

Combine a portal bomb with a smartass AI saying something like: 'Hello, I am Portal Bomb #1, but you can call me Bob. I have been instucted to tell you that you are (screwed, totally fucked, in alot of trouble) in approxamitly(sp?) 30 seconds. Running, flying or Portalling has been disrupted so please do not try. 10 seconds left. Have a nice day!'

Well, we know this wont happy, but it would have been amusing.

Sounds like you are channeling Dark Star, a 1970's SF movie. One of the ship's smart bombs malfunctions, and begins a countdown while still inside the bomb bay. The crew literally try to talk the bomb out of exploding. This seems to work until the bomb says, "Let there be light."

EDIT: Or Space Balls. Take your pick.

Might also be channeling Starship Troopers (the novel); they ran an intimidation raid against the "blue skinnies" at one point, and Rico dropped of a bomb that did something like that in a crowded building. Giving the people time to escape was intentional; the objective was more to be scary than to be destructive.

[CaptainChewbacca]

There is no established physics of two dimensional objects because a two dimensional object has no established basis in physics.

The macro-scale event of "touch" is a manifestation of the electro-magnetic force - as atoms come closer together, the tiny E field created by the different in position of the positively charge nucleus and negatively charged electron shells causes mutual repulsion. You can't simply say that the object is somehow two dimensional and yet still able to be "touched", as zero thickness implies that the object's E field is a constant 0 right up until the exact plane in space the object occupies, at which point the field discontinuously jumps to a non-zero value. That would be a violation of Maxwell's laws.

Who's saying Maxwell's laws apply to 2d objects? This is the point of Armageddon, we're dealing with phenomena we don't understand and concepts that blow away everything we THOUGHT we knew about the universe. Why are you assuming the portal has things like mass or protons? It could be a purely energy phenomenon and STILL be solid enough to break the wing of an angel.

I guess I might have misunderstood what's going on with the bubbles. I had assumed that, as the bubble universe shrunk, is was slowly consuming the matter contained in it. If this is not the case, what is happening to the matter inside the bubble as it shrinks? And what mechanism is providing the energy?

The bubble universes are the opposite of ours. Our universe is expanding infinitely, and will continue to do so. Therefore, the backround evergy of our universe is reducing. In bubble universes, there's nowhere for the energy to go, so it continues to get more and more concentrated, which manifests itself as (among other things) an ambient light.

[Gogyra]

Who's saying Maxwell's laws apply to 2d objects? This is the point of Armageddon, we're dealing with phenomena we don't understand and concepts that blow away everything we THOUGHT we knew about the universe. Why are you assuming the portal has things like mass or protons? It could be a purely energy phenomenon and STILL be solid enough to break the wing of an angel.

If we can throw out Maxwell's laws, we can throw out any part of physics we want. We could throw out the laws of thermodynamics, and then BAM! you can make portal bombs by "reversing the cyclotronic polarity to generate a quasi-nega flux state." The point of Armegeddon is that, while we're encountering strange and new things that challenge our understanding of physics, they still obey physical laws, and you can't just say that something is made of phlebotinum. The edge of the portal could very well appear two dimensional if it was incredibly thin, but a solid object of zero thickness has no place in any model of physics.

The bubble universes are the opposite of ours. Our universe is expanding infinitely, and will continue to do so. Therefore, the backround evergy of our universe is reducing. In bubble universes, there's nowhere for the energy to go, so it continues to get more and more concentrated, which manifests itself as (among other things) an ambient light.

That does make a lot more sense. But still, where is all the mass going? If space is shrinking, the mass has to go somewhere. It can't simply be compressed, as that would take astronomical amounts of energy.

[Baughn]

It doesn't make as much sense as one hopes, either.

Useful work isn't done by just having lots of energy everywhere; it requires having energy gradients, preferably sharp ones. The tendency for energy is to equalize, not go to zero. Life can exploit the former tendency; the latter contradicts several conservation laws.

Therefore, talking like having more energy is a plus in itself is nonsense, and one of the most annoying features of bad SF. Increasing the base energy level would have an effect, yes, but it'd be along the lines of making stable structures impossible; uniformly heating up the universe helps no-one.

Now. That doesn't mean a collapsing bubble universe couldn't possibly be used to perform useful work (such as regenerating human flesh), but it's very very hard to imagine exactly how it'd work. Exploiting zero-point energy is a neat trick in theory, but it actually makes relatively little sense; the only thing you can exploit is an energy difference, and there isn't one there.

One possible way you could do it would be to induce an artificial vacuum collapse, from a current meta-stable state to a more stable deeper vacuum state, releasing the zero-point energy as radiant energy of some kind. That tactic is fine, assuming that the current vacuum is in fact meta-stable; it merely requires that the new state is more stable. Er, and of course you have to deal with the minor issue that if the reaction gets out of hand it'll destroy the universe, and there's no way to actually stop it without active containment - which has to be kept up basically forever. The new state is by definition more stable, and chances are it'll spontaneously trigger collapse in all bordering meta-stable space; think of a supercooled liquid finally freezing*. All fun and games, in other words.

I could see some race being mad enough to do that, given bubble universes, but I wouldn't be mad enough to live in one. I'd also be worried about having open portals to one, come to think of it.


* Yes, freezing water does in fact release energy. That's actually pretty obvious; if it didn't, a pond that hit zero degrees would all freeze at the same time, instead of taking time. I imagine most of you know this, but what you may not know: It does not hold for all liquids.

[CaptainChewbacca]

If we can throw out Maxwell's laws, we can throw out any part of physics we want. We could throw out the laws of thermodynamics, and then BAM! you can make portal bombs by "reversing the cyclotronic polarity to generate a quasi-nega flux state." The point of Armegeddon is that, while we're encountering strange and new things that challenge our understanding of physics, they still obey physical laws, and you can't just say that something is made of phlebotinum. The edge of the portal could very well appear two dimensional if it was incredibly thin, but a solid object of zero thickness has no place in any model of physics.

Why are you assuming that portals are solid objects? In my last post I explained how an energy field can exert a force, and it wouldn't be solid. Here's how it goes:

The portal is two-dimensional.
The energy surrounding it is not.
The portal is not a solid object.
The energy inherent in a portal can exert a force on solid matter.
We don't know what laws of physics or the universe make this possible.

[Jamesfirecat]

Or Space Balls. Take your pick.

"This is your last chance to press the cancelation button." "Cancelation button?"



"Out of order f*** even in the future nothing works!"



"Six, what happened to seven?" "Just kidding..."

Sorry it had to be said...

[Gogyra]

Why are you assuming that portals are solid objects? In my last post I explained how an energy field can exert a force, and it wouldn't be solid. Here's how it goes:

The portal is two-dimensional.
The energy surrounding it is not.
The portal is not a solid object.
The energy inherent in a portal can exert a force on solid matter.
We don't know what laws of physics or the universe make this possible.

I think we're arguing across each other. Yes, the inside of the portal need not have thickness. But the rim, which holds the portal open, must have some sort of energy field that repels solid matter. By the nature of such fields, the 'rim' is therefore a 3-dimensional object, but not necessarily a "solid object" in the traditional sense.