Morality of the world as Whole

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dragon
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Morality of the world as Whole

Post by dragon »

So would you say the morality of the World as a whole is better or worse than it used to be.
I would like to say it's alot better and then I come across studies like this. And this is not counting the countries that are not members of Interpol. Granted this study is over 2 years old so some has changed. But then this is just one of the many disturbing things going on in our world.

The International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children (ICMEC) today urged world leaders to take immediate steps to create or enhance their existing child pornography laws, and bring to justice those producing and distributing child pornography worldwide. To date, 95 of the 186 countries that are members of the Interpol, the world’s most preeminent law enforcement organization, are without laws that specifically address child pornography
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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

Post by Simon_Jester »

Did more countries have such laws a hundred years ago, or fewer? Were they enforced more reliably, or less reliably?
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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

Post by Samuel »

So would you say the morality of the World as a whole is better or worse than it used to be.
Better. The murder rate is down.
The International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children (ICMEC) today urged world leaders to take immediate steps to create or enhance their existing child pornography laws, and bring to justice those producing and distributing child pornography worldwide. To date, 95 of the 186 countries that are members of the Interpol, the world’s most preeminent law enforcement organization, are without laws that specifically address child pornography
Given that they obviously didn't have these laws in the past (or else they would be on the books) I don't see how things are worse.
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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

Post by Darth Wong »

This is a joke, right? How can anyone look at the 19th century or even the first half of the 20th century and say that things have gotten worse? Does the term "World War" ring a bell? In the early part of the 20th century, people were so overtly racist around here that a white boxer would be crowned "The Great White Hope" because of peoples' fervent wish that he would beat down black boxers and restore white supremacy in boxing. Never mind how bad they were in Germany.
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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Darth Wong wrote:This is a joke, right? How can anyone look at the 19th century or even the first half of the 20th century and say that things have gotten worse? Does the term "World War" ring a bell? In the early part of the 20th century, people were so overtly racist around here that a white boxer would be crowned "The Great White Hope" because of peoples' fervent wish that he would beat down black boxers and restore white supremacy in boxing. Never mind how bad they were in Germany.
And lets not forget the fact that I would have been executed in almost ALL of the countries on the list, instead of only a backwards few.

Back a hundred years ago, a child molester could rape as many children as they wanted and have almost no chance of ever being caught or punished. Twelve year old girls in this country were bought and sold by their families like chattel against their will... Come the fuck on Dragon.
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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

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Alyrium Denryle wrote:Back a hundred years ago, a child molester could rape as many children as they wanted and have almost no chance of ever being caught or punished. Twelve year old girls in this country were bought and sold by their families like chattel against their will... Come the fuck on Dragon.
If you go back to before the Civil War, which is really not that long ago either, historically speaking...

You could shoot a man on the face with your shot gun for refusing to get out of the river after burning his hands, or beat a woman to death because she failed to keep the baby from crying when you were trying to get some sleep*, and to not get punished for either because those horrid crimes simply could not prompt enough outrage (if any) to bring the perpetrators to justice. Also, that it did not matter if a thousand black people were willing to testify against the white man or woman who perpetrated the crime, because their testimony was not admissible in court.

... Not to mention how much it says about how racist the population as a whole was that the term "abolitionist" was coined to describe people who wanted to end slavery and consider the black man brother to the white man. Abolitionists would get beaten and have their printing presses ransacked, and they risked being ostracized if they were "too" outspoken -- all in the name of decency and trying to maintain order in society. A man would get beaten to death and even white men sympathetic to him would not utter a single word all because he was a few shades darker.

* These examples from Frederick Douglass' Narrative of the Life.
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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

Post by Junghalli »

Darth Wong wrote:This is a joke, right? How can anyone look at the 19th century or even the first half of the 20th century and say that things have gotten worse? Does the term "World War" ring a bell? In the early part of the 20th century, people were so overtly racist around here that a white boxer would be crowned "The Great White Hope" because of peoples' fervent wish that he would beat down black boxers and restore white supremacy in boxing. Never mind how bad they were in Germany.
^ At the risk of sounding like a me-too, what he said. At least today treating people different from you purely with hatred or contempt isn't terribly fashionable anymore. That's a pretty big step up. How anybody can claim that we're less moral now than we were in the bad old days is beyond me (unless they have a very screwed up sense of morality, or just haven't put much thought into the subject).
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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

Post by Haruko »

Reading this thread, I recall a book by historian Richard Carrier titled Sense & Goodness Without God. A memorable part of Carrier's book is where he makes the assertion that the world is more moral today than it used to, and goes on to provide numerous examples. This is found in the section of his book on secularism, particularly the subsection titled "Do We Live In A Sick Society?" I will quote it in full, from page 303 to 306.
Moreland opens his article in Promise with the old saw that "our society is in a state of moral chaos." This is meant to convince us there is some new problem that he can then blame on secularism. Other Christians who argue that our present woes are something new, and secularism to blame for them, include Charles Colson, How Now Shall We Live? (1999), and David Myers, The American Paradox: Spiritual Hunger in an Age of Plenty (2000). But these writers fail to mention that this has been said in every century of human civilization for which we have any appreciable amount of social commentary, going on four thousand years now. The 'depravity of society' lament is nothing new at all--for the oldest examples of this genre, see Samuel Noah Kramer, "The First 'Sick' Society," History Begins At Sumer, 3rd rev. ed. (1981, pp. 259-69). But most relevant for our present situation, see Stephanie Coontz, The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Trap (1992) and The Way We Really Are: Coming to Terms With America's Changing Families (1998).

In fact, when we look objectively at history, Americans are more moral as a society today than any society at any time ever in human history, apart from our free democratic cousins around the world, who tend to be far less religious than we, yet somehow enjoy far lower rates of crime, and sometimes even greater economic equity and social justice, contrary to the very thesis Moreland is defending. But focusing solely on America, what do we really see? We see any amazingly progressive culture that has crawled out of an age of violent expansion and bigotry, and is starting to show incredible promise as an enlightened society.

Never before the 20th century have tens of millions of people voluntarily supported international human aid projects on a vast scale, without regard for political borders or religious affiliations, such as the Red Cross or Second Harvest. We even give aid to our enemies. We lead not only the world, but our own past, in hours devoted per capita to volunteer humanitarian work. Education as regarded for the first time in history as an inalienable right and is universally provided, even for women and minorities, and illiteracy is almost a thing of the past. The poor have government-funded medical care and millions of people are calling for more, out of pure compassion for their fellow human beings.

For the first time in history, women have full political rights. Free speech and freedom of religion are not only regarded as fundamental to our national character, but are ardently and thoroughly defended by all social classes. Slavery is defeated, and all forms of racism and hatred are almost universally loathed rather than accepted. For the first time in history, most people actually have compassion for the plight of animals --even the ones they eat must be humanely killed, and national organizations are devoted to their protection. For the first time in history, when men went to die in Viet Nam, millions of people actually protested an unjust war and stood for peace, despite being beaten and killed for it. In contrast, before our time, there is no recorded case, ever, of any comparable mass Christian action against a war. Today, even poor Americans live as well as Medieval kings once did, with more political power (in the right to speak, protest, and vote) than mos tof their counterparts in history ever had, amidst a sea of free parks and libraries, subsidized public transportation and 911 response teams, with luxuries galore, from sanitized water to portable orchestras in a box, all because people cared, and were honest enough to make the government work and the economy prosper, very much unlike the hopelessly corrupt governments and societies of many third-world nations today.

Let's compare America today with past centuries. Despite complaints about high rates of crime now (which have mostly declined steadily since the 1990's), compared to any other century our crime "problem" is extremely minimal, and has never been greater than it was eighty years ago anyway, when the murder rate skyrocketed under Prohibition. No surprise today that it is a new Prohibition that fills the vast majority of our prisons and drives young men to crime. In past centuries bandits and pirates threatened most rural routes and seaways, and travel was often a risky venture. Kidnapping was so routine that many people prayed they wouldn't be snatched. Robbery was so routine many people hid their money in mattresses or socks. Even the most effective civilization, at their peak, could stave off only some of these ills, compared to the safety of our current society, and only for small regions and for short spans of time...or for select social classes.

Children were legally beaten and very often exploited or abused. The rights of women and minorities, not to mention the incarcerated or mentally ill, were all but nonexistent, and slavery (and the oppression of native peoples) was defended as God's Will. Indeed, millions of God Fearing Christians actually fought to the death for their right to abuse and enslave millions of their fellow human beings. Whereas now people protest even of a single soldier might lose his life, in all past eras war was accepted as the natural course of things--indeed, until recently, it was hard to find any adult in history who did not suffer through one, or lose a member of his family to one. And there was never before our era much concept of a "war crime" or any real concept of "workplace safety'. Think of the horrors of days past. McCarthy. Jim Crowe. Wounded Knee. Salem. Dare anyone claim we were better people then?

I could go on, but the point is clear. The true picture of life in past times is always bleak. No one today, who really knew the facts, would trade this century for any other. No sensible woman would dar do without feminine hygient products and civil equality. No sensible man would dar walk into the disease-infested cities of the past or risk maiming or death in a pointless war or a gruesome industrial accident, or worse, risk finding himself a slave in the Antebellum South, or an aborigine on the Trail of Tears.

And if you hate political corruption today, you haven't seen corruption until you've flipped through a history book--the scandals of the past are quite revolting. But even in this century we have witnessed unprecedented progress. Whereas hundreds were killed and entire towns burned to the ground in the race riots of the Red Summer of 1919, even the worst riots today are a walk in the park by comparison. Once, minorities lived among us abused and mistreated, most living in a level of poverty that would disgust any human being today, while affluent white families virtually ate off their backs. Millions of blacks lived every day of their lives in fear of being lynched, or worse.

Yet things have changed. Now, in nations that are free and secular, only pockets of resistance remain tainted by this past evil, such as inner city slums, or Appalachian hovels, and scattered individuals or neighborhoods. But men like Moreland don't seem to call upon these real problems in their condemnation of society. Rather, his best example is the staged-and-scripted buffoonery of the Jerry Springer Show, which is as harmless as any other circus, and hardly indicative of reality for the average American. Why, then, are men like Moreland so eager to see our time as somehow more immoral than ages past? Apart from the general fact that people tend to falsely idealize their past, I would suggest two other factors are at work. On the one hand, we have a common error of reasoning: more weight is placed on sensational cases than on overall statistical facts. For instance, despite outrageous school shootings like Columbine, school crime has declined nationally and continues to do so. On the other hand, people like Moreland simply do not have their priorities straight. Personally, I will not accept any form of oppression, such as of gays or women or religious or racial minorities, as signs of a 'moral' society. Nor, in contrast, do I accept open sexuality or vulgarity as immoral.

Signs of morality are simple this: compassion and integrity, on a wide social scale. But many among the religious right see gays being openly gay and being treated as equals, they see offensive art, people challenging authority, women deciding for themselves what their place will be, and so on, and they don't like it. I cannot say whether or to what extent Moreland has such motives for condeming society, but they are certainly not uncommon among Evangelical conservatives generally. But none of that is immoral. To the contrary, these are signs of a moral society, where freedom, tolerance, equality, and compassion are the order of the day.

This is not to say modern society is all peaches and cream. We have a lot of progress to make, a lot of maturing left to do. Humanity is a young race, only four thousand years civilized. That's a mere 200 generations. If you knew all your ancestors, back to the day the first human city was built, their names would barely fill a single sheet of people. Now humanity is slowly reaching young adulthood, petulant and naive, faulty and prone to missteps, but not the child it has been through all its past. Human beings are generally more conscientious now, more education now, more freethinking, more cosmopolitan, and more compassionate now than ever before.

Though we are centuries yet from where we ought to be (and where Secular Humanists want to take us), it is quite dishonest to portray our current existence as somehow a moral decline. We look in vain for the 'Golden Age' we are supposed to have declined from....
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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

Post by Frank Hipper »

80 years ago lynchings of black men were popular family events. That grinning little bitch could still be alive, you know....

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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

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People who bitch about the world's modern morality being any less than previous generations are simply ignorant of the fact that information about bad things in the modern world is so much easier to come by, and thus seems 'more common'.

Frankly, it's just a variation of ostrich idiocy; that being the belief that that which you do not see does't happen/exist.
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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

Post by Simon_Jester »

Junghalli wrote:^ At the risk of sounding like a me-too, what he said. At least today treating people different from you purely with hatred or contempt isn't terribly fashionable anymore. That's a pretty big step up. How anybody can claim that we're less moral now than we were in the bad old days is beyond me (unless they have a very screwed up sense of morality, or just haven't put much thought into the subject).
Western civilization wasn't more moral back in the old (Victorian-old) days, but it was more prudish. Some people confuse the two.
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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

Post by ArmorPierce »

To a lot of people morality = community oriented (as long as all them are like you in religious beliefs and perceived race), god fearing church goers, and women being sexually prude.
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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

Post by Samuel »

ArmorPierce wrote:To a lot of people morality = community oriented (as long as all them are like you in religious beliefs and perceived race), god fearing church goers, and women being sexually prude.
Bah- that was Victorian era nonsense. I'm pretty sure that goes in phases and was not a constant.
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Re: Morality of the world as Whole

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Samuel wrote:
The International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children (ICMEC) today urged world leaders to take immediate steps to create or enhance their existing child pornography laws, and bring to justice those producing and distributing child pornography worldwide. To date, 95 of the 186 countries that are members of the Interpol, the world’s most preeminent law enforcement organization, are without laws that specifically address child pornography
You know, this is just wrong. Or rather, it isn't: But 71 out of these countries have laws against ALL kinds of pornography, which makes specific laws against child pornography kinda redundant. Only 15 out of those 95 do not have any laws against any kind of pornography (which, sadly, makes child-pornography legal), but out of these 15, 3 have passed laws against it, too.
So, it really does not look that bad - and the remaining 12 are propably some third-world countries - in fact, this list includes Iraq, Chad and Congo.


Overall, i would say that morality is better than it was in the past - you only need to go back 10 or 20 years, not a hundred. The best thing it that people tend to overcome old prejudices - they THINK about their morality.
This is not an universal, all-covering, perfect trend, but it seems to go that way.
I just hope this goes on - and sadly, it is a slow process. We just need a war, really hard times or something like that, and a lot of people are going to pick up the old prejudices (or develop new ones). But that seems to be the way it is - sadly, morality is a luxury.
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