Amazon Remotely Deletes 1984 From Customers' Kindles

[phongn]

Do you really think 'non-exclusive' means 'give your mates copies'? Wouldn't that crush their own business model as people just put up Amazon-purchased ebooks for download? Is it a reference to the Kindle's wireless silliness and Zune-like limited features?

Uh, I don't think Beowulf thinks it means that.

[Stark]

The correct part to highlight is: "non-exclusive right to keep a permanent copy", which means that other people can have copies, and the copy that you own a license to is "permanent". Which to most people means that it can't be revoked.

Isn't that what he said? 'Other people can have copies'. What does that mean? Is he saying they're just making the obvious statement that they'll sell the book to others as well (ie you're not buying exclusive ownership)?

[phongn]

Isn't that what he said? 'Other people can have copies'. What does that mean? Is he saying they're just making the obvious statement that they'll sell the book to others as well (ie you're not buying exclusive ownership)?

That's what I read him as saying, with the main thrust of his argument being the "permanent copy" part. In a legal sense, it might just mean "so long as authorized by Amazon, you can keep a copy on your device", with a non-permanent copy presumably meaning "this file will self-destruct after time T" or "this content will erase itself after you've viewed it"

[Stark]

I'm interested in other parts of the licence, because this is a third-party seller (apparently) and they doubtless have very different terms regarding items sold by them - just like Amazon couches their 'marketplace' stuff in all kinds of disclaimers as aside from presenting the item they have nothing to do with it. Maybe they used the same attitude without realising why in a digital distribution way this was stupid.

[Simon_Jester]

Your second paragraph makes no sense. You understand why they had to do it legally/commercially, but your offense at not being told is more important.

What if it turned out the book was ACTUALLY child porn? What if they found that out - it's illegal too. Would you say it's wrong for them to use their control to correct this crime they have facilitated? It 'convince me not to pay for it' because they do things to illegal books? PARANOIA LOL.

If they're such fuckups that they can't keep track of whether the property they're giving you access to is stolen, I don't trust them. I do not consider them to be a reliable vendor.

Because I don't trust them to sell me products that aren't stolen, and because I have no recourse if they take back the book I bought in good faith because of their poor screening process, I am not interested in their service.

Moreover, while I don't actually expect them to confiscate or censor books for arbitrary stupid reasons, I (again) have no recourse if they choose to do so. There's too much of a power asymmetry here, and Amazon isn't giving me a reason to trust them with that kind of power. If I'm going to pay a vendor for a service they can, technically, revoke at will, they'd better be able to convince me that I can trust them to do it only for good reasons. And that they will make a serious effort not to make it necessary for them to revoke my service because of their fuckup.

In short, I will not buy a Kindle not because Amazon revoked access to the book, but because the need to do so and the wording of their contract suggests that they are dishonest and inept. Since a Kindle is a luxury item, I see no reason to saddle myself with a binding contract with a dishonest, inept organization to obtain it.

[Lost Soal]

To help this along, from amazon.com.

Amazon Kindle: License Agreement and Terms of Use

Last updated: February 9, 2009

THIS IS AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN YOU AND AMAZON DIGITAL SERVICES, INC. (WITH ITS AFFILIATES, "AMAZON" OR "WE"). PLEASE READ THIS LICENSE AGREEMENT AND TERMS OF USE, AND ALL RULES AND POLICIES FOR THE KINDLE DEVICE AND SERVICES RELATED TO THE DEVICE (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ANY RULES OR USAGE PROVISIONS SPECIFIED ON THE AMAZON.COM WEBSITE OR THE KINDLE STORE, AND THE AMAZON.COM PRIVACY NOTICE LOCATED AT http://WWW.AMAZON.COM/PRIVACY (COLLECTIVELY, THIS "AGREEMENT") BEFORE USING THE KINDLE DEVICE. BY USING THE KINDLE DEVICE, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MAY RETURN THE KINDLE DEVICE AND ASSOCIATED SOFTWARE (WITH ALL ORIGINAL PACKAGING) WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS OF PURCHASE FOR A REFUND OF ITS PURCHASE PRICE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE KINDLE RETURN POLICY.

1. The Device and Related Services
2. Wireless Connectivity
3. Digital Content
4. Software
5. General

1. The Device and Related Services

The Kindle Device (the "Device") is a portable electronic reading device that utilizes wireless connectivity to enable users to shop for, download, browse, and read books, newspapers, magazines, blogs, and other materials, all subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. The "Service" means the wireless connectivity, provision of digital content, software and support, and other services and support that Amazon provides Device users.
2. Wireless Connectivity

General. Amazon provides wireless connectivity free of charge to you for certain content shopping and downloading services on your Device. You may be charged a fee for wireless connectivity for your use of other wireless services on your Device, such as Web browsing and downloading of personal files, should you elect to use those services. We will maintain a list of current fees for such services in the Kindle Store. Amazon reserves the right to discontinue wireless connectivity at any time or to otherwise change the terms for wireless connectivity at any time, including, but not limited to (a) limiting the number and size of data files that may be transferred using wireless connectivity and (b) changing the amount and terms applicable for wireless connectivity charges.

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Contact Information. For communications concerning this Agreement, you may contact Amazon by writing to Amazon.com, Attn: Legal Department, 1200 12th Avenue South, Suite 1200, Seattle, WA, 98144-2734.

Have fun sorting through all the legalese and reserved rights.

[Stark]

Does the site have separate disclaimers for the third-party stuff, as the Amazon Marketplace does?

[jcow79]

It's been mentioned several times already that these books are public domain in places outside the U.S. so it seems pretty clear to me this wasn't a matter of Amazon fencing stolen data but that Amazon ran into jurisdictional entanglements when the 3rd party company that likely has the right to sell the book tried selling it through Amazon which doesn't. At first it probably looked like it was on the up and up but then the international laws got a bit fuzzy and Amazon opted to pull the product and revoke the copies that went out.

Their decision was legally prudent but probably poor on the customer service side. A notification prior to deletion would have been nice but I'm sure their lawyers sphincters were nearing implosion especially considering the recent cases involving illegal downloading that side heavily on the side of the copyright owners and damages that can escalate very quickly. Taking these actions demonstrate “good faith” that it was unintentional and could help shield Amazon from higher penalties if they get sued by the copyright holders.

[Wyrm]

Would this part be the relevant detail?

You may not use the Device, the Service or the Digital Content for any illegal purpose.

If Amazon doesn't have the license to resell licenses to you, then using the Kindle to access the content is itself illegal. Since you can't use the Kindle for illegal purposes... bang goes your access.