Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

[Enosh]

well Dante (the blood angels chapter master) is some 1100 years old
Yoda was what, some 900 years?

[Connor MacLeod]

Even a simple shield such as the one at Hoth paired with an anti-capital scale weapon that can be purchased on the black market could do well to discourage a fleet, now imagine what a well funded base such as a prefabricated Imperial garrison (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Prefabri ... rison_base).

Except what good is it going to do to protect even part of the base while the rest of the planet is fucked? At the very minimum, you end up losing the atmosphere, the oceans are poisoned sludge, and you cope with a burning atmosphere until the energy radiates away. Nevermind the perpetual loss of sunlight due to all the debris/ejecta blocking the atmosphere and so on and os forth. Short term survival would be possible, but ultimately they'd have to abandon the planet.

Besides, its not as if 40K isn't unfamiliar with methods of avoiding/surviving exterminatus. Tallarn was hit by virus bombs from the Iron Warriors yet survived and managed to build an underground hive civilisation. Krieg nearly wiped itself out with extensive nuclear bombardment and survived. And the Valhallans got hit by some big ass chunk of iron that literally boiled/vaporized the oceans of the world and (somehow, magically, without disrupting the planet) pushed it into a farther orbit so the place became an ice world. Plus, 40K isn't unfamiliar with theatre shields. The ones on Terra (for example) survived CONVENTIONAL bombardments that evaporated the oceans (and removed them from the planet) AND cracked and shifted the crusts/continents! And I'm pretty sure there are other cases where planets with theatre shielding are attacked (including starships) and they don't use the ship firepower to try cracking the shield, either.

Moreover, there are ships (including Astartes, Inquisition, and AdMech vessels) that are equipped with teleporters. It is a known tactic to use teleporters to dump munitions into objects (Inquisitor Kryptmann and the Deathwatch Renegades under his command did this to a moon to divert a hive fleet towards Ork space.) Such tactics could be used to knock out theatre/planetary shielding (or segments of) or to just direclty transmit lethla munitions under the shield. SW has no defense against warp teleportation as far as I am aware of.

Oh yeah, and as for Hoth. AS I recall they rigged it up using the planet's mantle/core as a heat sink. So that defense only works so long as they can keep radiating away energy fast enough to NOT fuck over the core/crust. A powerful enough attack could still bypass the shield by fucking over the core (as in, say, vaporizing a big 'ol chunk of it) And a high-enough momentum impactor (Say, an asteroid, like the trick Ghazghkull Thraka used on the Imperium in "Planetkill") could simply overwhelm the shields by crushing the mountings/generator. At worst, there's always the "overlord warp engines in proximity to a planet" trick.

Ramming is space, if that is a tactic commonly used is suicide and even if used by a damaged ship. First off you can broadside well on a ramming course and an ISD can still bring many weapons to bear on a ship doing such an action. We can also not really compare a ram as a good armor base as there is a lot that isn't so heavily armored.

Ramming is not common, at least not among Imperial vessels./ If they need to board a ship they use boarding torpedoes. The Orks (I think) use ramming tacitcs but that's it.

Common engagement ranges for Imperial vessels range for the thousands to tens of thousands of km range (Ciaphais Cain, Ghosts novels, Execution Hour and Shadow Point, Warriors of Ultramar, etc.) and hundreds of thousands of km is long range for some weapons (Nightbringer). Ramming is not possible at those ranges.

No, but nothing will save you from being torn asunder so that is not a point to either side. Even rebels can afford a replacement limb and cloned tissue suplimented by healing in Bacta allow for much higher rates of success than should be possible for the IoM

Most uses of bacta require a dedicated medical facility and a tank. 40K doesn't have bacta, but they have some pretty sophisticated (often automated) medical gear, like automated medikits that quite liekly are almost as good. They have synthetic flesh-sealing compounds (either as bandages or adhesives, or as spray on stuff) which is roughly comparable to what SW has in battlefield medicine. If you have evidence of superior capability (and have made an actual comparison) you should have presented that evidence rather than mock him for it.

And augmetics are actually common battlefield replacements for many sorts of things, and can come in variety of manners (highly visible, intimidating optics to eyes that would hardly be distinguishable from the real thing.) depending on availability, taste and tech level. Hell theyre even considered something of an advantage.

I disagree, a debate is about evidence and numbers, not about being polite. Look at politics and the heckling the throw back and forth and the lack of civility there. I have agreed to look at evidence as you provide it, yet yoiu give no links or any hard numbers as I have repeatedly requested. I'm starting to think you're stalling as you can't find any and are to unskilled to do the maths by yourself.

Politeness goes both ways, and it encompasses more than just rude words. Being "polite" also means that you respect the opposition enough to match their efforts in debating, or at least concde when you cannot, and its no less "rude" to dismiss another person's arguments and evidence without trying to meet them than it is to call them names.

That said, I'm questioning just how well you met evidence in some of those cases, because its not evident from this that ou were doing all that great a job of providing evidence either. If you make a claim, you always back it up.

[Connor MacLeod]

It seems that citizens of the GE have a cultural thing against cybernetics much of the time and opt for cloned tissue as a first choice. However we have less extreme examples of Lobot, and Quarl (sp?) ; from the Young Jedi Knights of spear throwing fame, as well as Luke as examples of characters in the universe we know to have had such surgery done. As far

Cloning is biased too, and somewhat illegal (Tales of the Bounty Hunters.) It's mentioned, though, that alternatives to cloning exist that are legal, and other than (I bleieve) Prosthetics.

Whereas you have had people in 40K who routinely live into the 200-300 year mark (as long as you are wealthy or noble, or upteched). Well connected ones can live up to 5 centuries (Inquisitor Horst, I belive) but its noted in some (Inquisition War) that centuries is the upper limit.

Space MArines can live p to 300-400 years IIRC - or most can, though the mutations of some Chapters (the Space Wolves and Blood Angels) allow longer. DAnte is 1100-1400 years old, and has a Sergeant even older than him. Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves is 500-700 years old at least, and I think he's not neccesarily the oldest Space Wolf either.

The longest lived tend to be the AdMech. In the third edition its noted they cna live thousands of years (although this has the nasty side effect of mental degenration making techpriests that old certifiably mad. ) and many average many hundreds of years (one Techpriest in the second eisenhorn novel was 700 and still going strong, as I recall) OF course they have rejuv as well as augmetics...

As living longer goes, Pelleon is still active in the Navy well into his nineties and in seemingly good health.

One of Han's associates in the NJO (an elderly guy who was in his 60s-70s when Han was still in the Corporate Sector) had rejuvenation treatments of some kind to youthen himself (to middle age I think) but i'm not sure if it was just cosmetic or if it actually extended his life.

In "Truce at Bakura" there were people woh (in a relative backwater) lived to be welel into their 150-200 year, and no indication that they were neccesarily at the end of their life, but I think in some of that prosthetics may have played a role.

Also I remember the new Essential guide to aliens gave human beings an average lifespan of 120, which seems to suggest at least some life-extneding technology is possible.

It is also widely believed that Star Wars has the superior disease control and general medical edge over 40k.

Based on what? SW has some fancy ass medical tech but so does 40K (Man portable automated medikits, which have existed in some cases to 5th edition based on the Guard Codex: there's a Vostroyan medic carrying one) and medical auspexes, and medical machinery assigned to medicaes. I even believe there are medical servitors. 40K troops (IE Guardsmen) commonly get what is known as an "Immune" which is a broad based immunisation against most forms of disease or contagion (including limited resistance to viral weaponry, IIRC) and they are commonly given as injections before planetary landings (Its covered in one of the Ghosts novels that I remember.) I never recall something equivalent being given in Star Wars.

Certainly SW has a more broadly consistent standard of living, evne arguably among slaves, but that doesnt neccesarily mean anything form a medical POV. The more likely problem with 40K is that the "stuff" they have isn't less sophisticated, its less pervasive/commonly avialable. Though to be honest, I think that same argument could be made in SW depending on era (The Empire wasn't exactly a nice place to live if you were a Toprawan, an alien, or from a distinctly Rebellious planet) and the Republic before it was corrupt and ineffective (want ot live on a world under the bootheel of the Trade Federation?)

The BEST example of what 40K can do medically at the moemnt is, I think, Colonel Schaefer. Since he's been injured, burned, blasted apart, lost limbs and so on and so forth in his various duties yet the AdMech have been able to bring him back whole and organic without augmetics.

[Norade]

Connor, I'll be able to debate you later in full but for now let me just explain my position against this guy. I was asking him for evidence for his side and knew full well what a lot of 40k weapon's technology could do, however as he was the one debating for the IoM and I repeatedly asked him for evidence and received nothing but no numbers fallacies in response. Of course after a while of this I started to get a bit upset and my tone became a little less forgiving. You can surely understand why I'd press hard against a guy who claim that he would refuse to believe on screen evidence for asteroid destruction as it was 'cheesy' and that 200 Gigatons could destroy a planet...

As well I haven't had any good sources for 40k so I'm glad we can discuss this and I can learn something about the Imperium.

[Norade]

Even a simple shield such as the one at Hoth paired with an anti-capital scale weapon that can be purchased on the black market could do well to discourage a fleet, now imagine what a well funded base such as a prefabricated Imperial garrison (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Prefabri ... rison_base).

Except what good is it going to do to protect even part of the base while the rest of the planet is fucked? At the very minimum, you end up losing the atmosphere, the oceans are poisoned sludge, and you cope with a burning atmosphere until the energy radiates away. Nevermind the perpetual loss of sunlight due to all the debris/ejecta blocking the atmosphere and so on and os forth. Short term survival would be possible, but ultimately they'd have to abandon the planet.

Besides, its not as if 40K isn't unfamiliar with methods of avoiding/surviving exterminatus. Tallarn was hit by virus bombs from the Iron Warriors yet survived and managed to build an underground hive civilisation. Krieg nearly wiped itself out with extensive nuclear bombardment and survived. And the Valhallans got hit by some big ass chunk of iron that literally boiled/vaporized the oceans of the world and (somehow, magically, without disrupting the planet) pushed it into a farther orbit so the place became an ice world. Plus, 40K isn't unfamiliar with theatre shields. The ones on Terra (for example) survived CONVENTIONAL bombardments that evaporated the oceans (and removed them from the planet) AND cracked and shifted the crusts/continents! And I'm pretty sure there are other cases where planets with theatre shielding are attacked (including starships) and they don't use the ship firepower to try cracking the shield, either.

Moreover, there are ships (including Astartes, Inquisition, and AdMech vessels) that are equipped with teleporters. It is a known tactic to use teleporters to dump munitions into objects (Inquisitor Kryptmann and the Deathwatch Renegades under his command did this to a moon to divert a hive fleet towards Ork space.) Such tactics could be used to knock out theatre/planetary shielding (or segments of) or to just direclty transmit lethla munitions under the shield. SW has no defense against warp teleportation as far as I am aware of.

Oh yeah, and as for Hoth. AS I recall they rigged it up using the planet's mantle/core as a heat sink. So that defense only works so long as they can keep radiating away energy fast enough to NOT fuck over the core/crust. A powerful enough attack could still bypass the shield by fucking over the core (as in, say, vaporizing a big 'ol chunk of it) And a high-enough momentum impactor (Say, an asteroid, like the trick Ghazghkull Thraka used on the Imperium in "Planetkill") could simply overwhelm the shields by crushing the mountings/generator. At worst, there's always the "overlord warp engines in proximity to a planet" trick.

Of course I know that the IoM is used to dealing with shields and the like, I was debating with somebody who didn't seem to have the basics of the versus down so I was filling him in. As for teleporting through Star War shields and ECM we don't know their exact mechanism or how they work in comparison to void shields so it isn't so simple as saying they can go through because of an unprovable lack of warp protection.

Ramming in space, if that is a tactic commonly used is suicide and even if used by a damaged ship. First off you can broadside well on a ramming course and an ISD can still bring many weapons to bear on a ship doing such an action. We can also not really compare a ram as a good armor base as there is a lot that isn't so heavily armored.

Ramming is not common, at least not among Imperial vessels./ If they need to board a ship they use boarding torpedoes. The Orks (I think) use ramming tacitcs but that's it.

Common engagement ranges for Imperial vessels range for the thousands to tens of thousands of km range (Ciaphais Cain, Ghosts novels, Execution Hour and Shadow Point, Warriors of Ultramar, etc.) and hundreds of thousands of km is long range for some weapons (Nightbringer). Ramming is not possible at those ranges.

I was referring to his point about a reinforced power that is used for ramming and letting him know that even as a last ditch it is a poor idea. Races that commonly use ramming are only the Orks and the Tyranids as far as I know.

We also both know that long engagement ranges in Star Wars are in the same range as for the IoM at ten light minutes.

No, but nothing will save you from being torn asunder so that is not a point to either side. Even rebels can afford a replacement limb and cloned tissue suplimented by healing in Bacta allow for much higher rates of success than should be possible for the IoM

Most uses of bacta require a dedicated medical facility and a tank. 40K doesn't have bacta, but they have some pretty sophisticated (often automated) medical gear, like automated medikits that quite liekly are almost as good. They have synthetic flesh-sealing compounds (either as bandages or adhesives, or as spray on stuff) which is roughly comparable to what SW has in battlefield medicine. If you have evidence of superior capability (and have made an actual comparison) you should have presented that evidence rather than mock him for it.

And augmetics are actually common battlefield replacements for many sorts of things, and can come in variety of manners (highly visible, intimidating optics to eyes that would hardly be distinguishable from the real thing.) depending on availability, taste and tech level. Hell theyre even considered something of an advantage.[/quote]

While most uses of Bacta require a tank and dedicated facility it has been shown to be highly effective when used in other forms as well. It has even been used as part of armor to heal injury as it happens and keep men fighting or at least prevent death from some more nasty wounds. My source is wookiepedia so take it with a grain of salt, it knowing the games it makes sense.

As for augmetics they seem to be used at least partly in the GE but with some bias against them. However we do know that Luke has his prosthetic hand, Lobot has his cranial implant, Boba Fet has his replacement leg, and I needn't mention Vader and Grievous.

I disagree, a debate is about evidence and numbers, not about being polite. Look at politics and the heckling the throw back and forth and the lack of civility there. I have agreed to look at evidence as you provide it, yet yoiu give no links or any hard numbers as I have repeatedly requested. I'm starting to think you're stalling as you can't find any and are to unskilled to do the maths by yourself.

Politeness goes both ways, and it encompasses more than just rude words. Being "polite" also means that you respect the opposition enough to match their efforts in debating, or at least concde when you cannot, and its no less "rude" to dismiss another person's arguments and evidence without trying to meet them than it is to call them names.

That said, I'm questioning just how well you met evidence in some of those cases, because its not evident from this that ou were doing all that great a job of providing evidence either. If you make a claim, you always back it up.

I don't have access to each reply, but I provided no less than five links while debating on the main thread before it was locked and we continued via PM, I provided more sources there and was the only one to provide a single link or calculation. Just because I only showed the last post between us doesn't mean that is all the evidence I provided.

Also please see the link I provided in post one and read the thread for some of the evidence I provided.

It seems that citizens of the GE have a cultural thing against cybernetics much of the time and opt for cloned tissue as a first choice. However we have less extreme examples of Lobot, and Quarl (sp?) ; from the Young Jedi Knights of spear throwing fame, as well as Luke as examples of characters in the universe we know to have had such surgery done. As far

Cloning is biased too, and somewhat illegal (Tales of the Bounty Hunters.) It's mentioned, though, that alternatives to cloning exist that are legal, and other than (I bleieve) Prosthetics.

Whereas you have had people in 40K who routinely live into the 200-300 year mark (as long as you are wealthy or noble, or upteched). Well connected ones can live up to 5 centuries (Inquisitor Horst, I belive) but its noted in some (Inquisition War) that centuries is the upper limit.

Space MArines can live p to 300-400 years IIRC - or most can, though the mutations of some Chapters (the Space Wolves and Blood Angels) allow longer. DAnte is 1100-1400 years old, and has a Sergeant even older than him. Logan Grimnar of the Space Wolves is 500-700 years old at least, and I think he's not neccesarily the oldest Space Wolf either.

The longest lived tend to be the AdMech. In the third edition its noted they cna live thousands of years (although this has the nasty side effect of mental degenration making techpriests that old certifiably mad. ) and many average many hundreds of years (one Techpriest in the second eisenhorn novel was 700 and still going strong, as I recall) OF course they have rejuv as well as augmetics...

Full cloning is biased, but tissue and organ cloning seems far more common as well as regeneration, but I while I have seen evidence for replacing limbs with organic versions I can't seem to find a source ATM and will concede until I can find one.

Life span is an interesting point as you are right, and the IoM seems to have longer life spans than are possible in the GE. However we know they use forms of stasis (IE Dreadnoughts) and that warp travel can extend lifespans by a not inconsiderable degree. By comparison we see humans in excellent health well into old age in the GE and it is possible that they trade lifespan for quality of life as they don't seem to suffer from their extended life as the extreme cases in 40k do.

As living longer goes, Pelleon is still active in the Navy well into his nineties and in seemingly good health.

One of Han's associates in the NJO (an elderly guy who was in his 60s-70s when Han was still in the Corporate Sector) had rejuvenation treatments of some kind to youthen himself (to middle age I think) but i'm not sure if it was just cosmetic or if it actually extended his life.

In "Truce at Bakura" there were people woh (in a relative backwater) lived to be welel into their 150-200 year, and no indication that they were neccesarily at the end of their life, but I think in some of that prosthetics may have played a role.

Also I remember the new Essential guide to aliens gave human beings an average lifespan of 120, which seems to suggest at least some life-extneding technology is possible.

If we take the average to include soldiers, slaves, and other high risk occupations that is actually likely comparable to the average life span in 40k. Of course 40k has the extremes at both high end and low end for life expectancy while Wars seems more even.

It is also widely believed that Star Wars has the superior disease control and general medical edge over 40k.

Based on what? SW has some fancy ass medical tech but so does 40K (Man portable automated medikits, which have existed in some cases to 5th edition based on the Guard Codex: there's a Vostroyan medic carrying one) and medical auspexes, and medical machinery assigned to medicaes. I even believe there are medical servitors. 40K troops (IE Guardsmen) commonly get what is known as an "Immune" which is a broad based immunisation against most forms of disease or contagion (including limited resistance to viral weaponry, IIRC) and they are commonly given as injections before planetary landings (Its covered in one of the Ghosts novels that I remember.) I never recall something equivalent being given in Star Wars.

Certainly SW has a more broadly consistent standard of living, evne arguably among slaves, but that doesnt neccesarily mean anything form a medical POV. The more likely problem with 40K is that the "stuff" they have isn't less sophisticated, its less pervasive/commonly avialable. Though to be honest, I think that same argument could be made in SW depending on era (The Empire wasn't exactly a nice place to live if you were a Toprawan, an alien, or from a distinctly Rebellious planet) and the Republic before it was corrupt and ineffective (want ot live on a world under the bootheel of the Trade Federation?)

The BEST example of what 40K can do medically at the moemnt is, I think, Colonel Schaefer. Since he's been injured, burned, blasted apart, lost limbs and so on and so forth in his various duties yet the AdMech have been able to bring him back whole and organic without augmetics.

Would an auto-medikit and medical auspiexes be comparable to a small sized droid surgeon or automated Bacta injections and the different medical scanner technology in the Wars universe? gain that mirical liquid Bacta seems to neutralize everything from most not instantly lethal wounds to disease and infection so they may have less need to immunization given access to it and NBC gear.

While living under the shadow of the Empire or boot of the TradeFed may suck but less so than a similar abusive relationship in the IoM where you may be killed out of hand instead of having access to some shiny toys restricted and being enslaved which seems to be the base state on many IoM worlds...

Schaefer is a good example and I am still amazed by what they've done with him. However I would submit Vader and Grievous as some examples of what Star Wars can do with people who should be long dead. While they aren't organic, they do show what can be done in cases where it is the only option.

[white_rabbit]

Schaefer is a good example and I am still amazed by what they've done with him. However I would submit Vader and Grievous as some examples of what Star Wars can do with people who should be long dead. While they aren't organic, they do show what can be done in cases where it is the only option.

Pontius Glaw comes to mind pretty much immediately as a near equivalent.

Heh, might make an interesting fight.

Scraps of flesh and lots of cybernetics isn't tremendously rare for the Imperiums technology, its pretty much the lot of billions of Servitors I expect.

[Connor MacLeod]

As for teleporting through Star War shields and ECM we don't know their exact mechanism or how they work in comparison to void shields so it isn't so simple as saying they can go through because of an unprovable lack of warp protection.

Yes, it is that simple. It's called "We don't have any proof or reason to believe SW has or needs some means of blocking warp based transporters, so they likely don't have the ability." Do you not understand how this works? Extraordinary claims (IE SW shields can block warp based teleporters) requires extraordinary proof, and saying "we don't undertsand the mechanism" is stupid - they transmit through the WARP - a trait that is well established in many sources.)

We also both know that long engagement ranges in Star Wars are in the same range as for the IoM at ten light minutes.

SW has never engaged at multi LM distances to my knowlege (or if they have, its exceedingly rare) Multiple LS is about the best you get, and usually thats a combination of beam and missile weapons. The closest you get for multi LM ranges are all bombardment instances.

40K ships have engaged at multi-AU ranges with guided munitions, such as hinted at in the Blood Angels duology, and in "Sons of Fenris" (although there it was merely 25 million km range.) Rogue Trader indicated bombardment of planetary targets from the edge of the system with munitions, just like SW can. Most weapons though are similarily ranged to their SW counterparts.

While most uses of Bacta require a tank and dedicated facility it has been shown to be highly effective when used in other forms as well.

So? 40K has effective healing methods too. And SW does rely on other things than just bacta (Medstar duology involved actual surgery rather than just neccesarily sticking them in a bacta tank.)

It has even been used as part of armor to heal injury as it happens and keep men fighting or at least prevent death from some more nasty wounds. My source is wookiepedia so take it with a grain of salt, it knowing the games it makes sense.

That sounds suspciisouly like gameplay-oriented stuff like from Republic Commando. Then again, Space Marines and other forms of power armour can incorporate similar as well, so its not unusual. (and if it IS RC's using what you describe, then its likely to be about as "common")

Unless you're referring to the patches, which wereb asically just like bandaids with a bit of a "wound sealing" quality on them. THey didnt insta-heal you (and 40K has wound-sealing technologies too, even available at the Guard level, so nothing horrifyingly different here.)

As for augmetics they seem to be used at least partly in the GE but with some bias against them. However we do know that Luke has his prosthetic hand, Lobot has his cranial implant, Boba Fet has his replacement leg, and I needn't mention Vader and Grievous.

As I recall Boba Fett got a cloned leg in Tales of the Bounty Hunters, which was illegal.

I don't have access to each reply, but I provided no less than five links while debating on the main thread before it was locked and we continued via PM, I provided more sources there and was the only one to provide a single link or calculation. Just because I only showed the last post between us doesn't mean that is all the evidence I provided.

Also please see the link I provided in post one and read the thread for some of the evidence I provided.

What, so I'm supposed to go through eight-plus pages and dig out evidence to support your own allegation? I have to ask again if you understand what "burden of proof" means. It does not mean giving me a vague link to the entire debate and to sift through it to find your evidence for you.

Full cloning is biased, but tissue and organ cloning seems far more common as well as regeneration, but I while I have seen evidence for replacing limbs with organic versions I can't seem to find a source ATM and will concede until I can find one.

I await this specific evidence, because the Zuckuss story in TBH had him trying to get a cloned lung to replace his own damanged ones and Fett working to get his own replacement leg. Apparently, doing some checking, they can re-grow organs but they can't provide cloned transplants or grow new cloned ones (its illegal.)

Life span is an interesting point as you are right, and the IoM seems to have longer life spans than are possible in the GE. However we know they use forms of stasis (IE Dreadnoughts) and that warp travel can extend lifespans by a not inconsiderable degree. By comparison we see humans in excellent health well into old age in the GE and it is possible that they trade lifespan for quality of life as they don't seem to suffer from their extended life as the extreme cases in 40k do.

If we take the average to include soldiers, slaves, and other high risk occupations that is actually likely comparable to the average life span in 40k. Of course 40k has the extremes at both high end and low end for life expectancy while Wars seems more even.

I dont remember any particular evidence of an "average" lifespan in 40K, nor would any such term matter since it can vary from planet to planet in any case. I do vaguely remember that one non-augmented (I think) human priest lieved to be 120, though. Considering mutation and such, its not guaranteed 40K humans are like "real life" baselines humans.

In the ravenor novels some planetbound businessman was able to get rejuv on his planet and he was into his second century, IIRC. As I said, its not likely any better or worse, its just more inocnsistently applied.

Would an auto-medikit and medical auspiexes be comparable to a small sized droid surgeon or automated Bacta injections and the different medical scanner technology in the Wars universe?

Uh, medkits and medical asupexes would be MAN PORTABLE gear. A 2-1B droid is NOT man portable as such (at best, vehicle portable.)

Autosurgeons and medical servitors would be a better analogy to medical droids. Medicae facilities (or at least decent ones) won't rely on just handheld auspex, they'll have better stuff. And probably stuff like resucitrexes, synthi-flesh weavers, etc.

gain that mirical liquid Bacta seems to neutralize everything from most not instantly lethal wounds to disease and infection so they may have less need to immunization given access to it and NBC gear.

Which seems incredibly stupid to me. "hey lets wait til I'm sick and see if MAYBE I can get bacta treatment!"

Besides, not all bacta is the same. as I recall the "high quality" stuff was expensive as hell and never exported. Nevermind that its made only on a single planet (thus centralizing construction and logistics, making it easy to cripple if you take it out. As what happened in the Swarm War to the Alliance.)

While living under the shadow of the Empire or boot of the TradeFed may suck but less so than a similar abusive relationship in the IoM where you may be killed out of hand instead of having access to some shiny toys restricted and being enslaved which seems to be the base state on many IoM worlds...

Er, what? The Separatists were notoriously brutal in their treatment of others during the Republic era. The Intergalactic Banking Clan, for example, used hailfire droids for collections (basically if you dont pay your debts you get bombarded to death with missiles.) That was by and large what their military forces were for prior to the clone wars - to bully others. and I don't need to remind you of what happened during the Naboo occupation by the Tradefed in ANH. The Commerce Guild could buy entire planets and enslave the populace. I'd hardly call THAT enlightenend.

Nevermind all the shit that happens during the Empire (where you're only okay so long as you're rich, in the military, human, or rich. And sometimes not even then.)

I again fail to see the basis upon which you might consider this "less worse", unless you consider the possible ability to own a droid, or an airspeeder an "advantage".

Schaefer is a good example and I am still amazed by what they've done with him. However I would submit Vader and Grievous as some examples of what Star Wars can do with people who should be long dead. While they aren't organic, they do show what can be done in cases where it is the only option.

Schaefer is, IIRC completely organic. If you want to get into the "cybernetics" deal, then I'll throw the entire ADmech at you. Or what they cna do to servitors. 40K Augmetics are formidably impressive, an every bit as good as naything SW has.

[Aaron]

Schaefer is, IIRC completely organic. If you want to get into the "cybernetics" deal, then I'll throw the entire ADmech at you. Or what they cna do to servitors. 40K Augmetics are formidably impressive, an every bit as good as naything SW has.

He is, I can post the relevant quote from Annihilation Squad if you like but the short version is that his eyes were "donated" from a heretic, his spine rebuilt and his arm regrown.

[Oskuro]

Going back to the rationalization of the existance of the Warp in SW, I would propose the following idea:

a) The Warp is a property of the universe, a paralel dimension into wich Psychic powers resonate greately, not some localized effect of the 40k galaxy.
b) The unadulterated beings of the SW galaxy have lesser access to the Warp, thus it is calmer.
c) Naturally evolved Psykers may have given birth to a much calmer Warp God (The Force), or to a duo of warp gods (Dark Side, Light Side)
d) Current Force users could be natural Psykers enhanced by these gods, and somehow subject to their whim.

The only point of this rationalization is to make these things somewhat compatible for Vs purposes, not to actually 'explain' the Force. The idea is that both sides work as they should aganist each other, and that's it.
We could even argue that Hyperspace might actually be this calmer Warp dimension.

[NecronLord]

I again fail to see the basis upon which you might consider this "less worse", unless you consider the possible ability to own a droid, or an airspeeder an "advantage".

If Dark Heresy is to be believed on the lifestyle of a typical hive worker, there's a substantial qualitative difference in lifestyle. The average guy in the Empire doesn't have to work nearly as long or hard.

[Shroom Man 777]

Then again, you also have entire planets full of Wookies being enslaved to build bits of the Death Star. And we know what happens to a whole lot of female Twi'leks - they get sold to galactic sex slavery.

[Samuel]

Yeah, but don't members of certain worlds have 20 hour work days? I remember it mentioned in one of the city fighting books and I'm pretty sure no where in the Empire is that bad.

[Connor MacLeod]

droid, or an airspeeder an "advantage".

If Dark Heresy is to be believed on the lifestyle of a typical hive worker, there's a substantial qualitative difference in lifestyle. The average guy in the Empire doesn't have to work nearly as long or hard.[/quote]

Depends on who you compare what to.

That's also only if you're an Imperial human. If you're a rebel, from the Outer Rim, or an alien then things are alot idfferent. aS I recall in the Outer Rim alot of corporations and shit were allowed to run roughshod over the membership. It was only if you were a member of the core worlds or a member world of the Senate that you had anything resemblinga normal life. I can probably check with Publius, if you like - he's more likely to know better.

Even then, given all the depictions we've had of the underground on worlds like Coruscant, I'm not sure I'd say its MUCH different than your average Hive world. Maybe a bit cleaner in some places. A bit more sophisticated tech wise, but you have gangs and mutant life forms and your own ecoloies and all manner of dangers that can fuck you up (just like your typical underhive.)

There's also the fact the Imperium considers itself to be constantly at war. They over-exaggerate that fact, and they tend to be in a greater stage of "production" than the Empire does (who basically has a military industrial complex that makes the American one look well ordered and efficient.), so that probably plays a role.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, but don't members of certain worlds have 20 hour work days? I remember it mentioned in one of the city fighting books and I'm pretty sure no where in the Empire is that bad.

Its in "cities of Death" on page 6, but I'm not sure how to really apply that overall, and I also tend to be wary of that because its one of those "GRIMDARK" atmosphere passages you tend to get. Like the ones at the beginning of every 40K novel, in fact.

I have no doubt there are SOME places that fucked up in the Imperium (like onboard starships if you're slave) but I don't know if its common either. I'd probably more ascribe it to an AdMech forge World or maybe one of the more primitive planets (or some prison planet) where the people are dicks.

Other worlds tend to be highly variable. The novel "Survivla Instinct" by Andy Chambers was on Necromunda and mentioned "eighty hour work cycles" which I'm assuming was weekly, as well as hab workers having ten hours of free time - which is nasty, but its hardly worse than some places in the US I might add (I know people who work that much overtime, or more, or work nearly that much by having to hold down two or more jobs.)

Depictions that come off the top of my head (short stories in LEt the Galaxy Burn - one by Gav Thorpe comes to mind about some Imperial cardinal or Priest in some mutant area) and other short story compilations, as well as the Ravenor and Eisenhorn book depictions (nevermind a plca like tanith), or that planet from Nightbringer (Pavonis, I think?)...

[Connor MacLeod]

Going back to the rationalization of the existance of the Warp in SW, I would propose the following idea:

a) The Warp is a property of the universe, a paralel dimension into wich Psychic powers resonate greately, not some localized effect of the 40k galaxy.

This is pretty much a given, unless you want to argue that hyperspace and the Force don't exist in 40K.

b) The unadulterated beings of the SW galaxy have lesser access to the Warp, thus it is calmer.

Yes. We can even point to races like the Tau, who don't seem to have much presence in the warp. Then again as far as we know they aren't an engineered race like Humans/Eldar/Orks/Tyranids either.

c) Naturally evolved Psykers may have given birth to a much calmer Warp God (The Force), or to a duo of warp gods (Dark Side, Light Side)

The Force and the Warp are not the same thing. The Force is by no means a psychic phenomena. Moreover, the Force is believed to "exist/manifest" in realspace, if we belive the Jedi practices about it. Ghosts can manifest fiarly spontaneously here without much problem (Wheras in 40K manifestation from the Warp to realspace is much harder.) And only certain beings can become "ghosts" in SW as well, and that invariably requires training (whereas anyone if they could get into realspace, could manifest.) We know the Force isnt genetic, but the psychic phenomena likely is.

There are naturally occuring psychic races and phenomena - at least low level such, in SW, but nothing on the scale of 40K (effects of that magintude are reserved for the Force users)

Its likely then that Warp activity is minimal to nonexistent in the Star Wars galaxy (with all the attendent side effects on the Immaterium and the rarity of psykers) and the Force is virtually nonexistent in 40K (which is why no Force users ever exist.)

Trying to force the two to being the same thing is retarded and impossible without convoluted theories.

d) Current Force users could be natural Psykers enhanced by these gods, and somehow subject to their whim.

Unneccessary. There's no reason to believe the Warp and the Force are the same thing.

The only point of this rationalization is to make these things somewhat compatible for Vs purposes, not to actually 'explain' the Force. The idea is that both sides work as they should aganist each other, and that's it.
We could even argue that Hyperspace might actually be this calmer Warp dimension.

Its not that difficult to make sense of. The absence of the Force from 40K or enhanced Psyker phenomena from SW does not mean that one side is immune to the other, it just makes them phenomena that are peculiar to those particular universes because cirucmstances and conditions are different.

[18-Till-I-Die]

On teh subject of living standards in the Imperium of Man...

It's a misconception to say it's all bad, even on Hive Worlds. The Ghosts have been to various planets, including hives, and it's run the spectrum from one world which was in effect the antebellum South with spaceships to a planet which was one giant factory. Life in the Imperium is, by the very nature of the government, extremely different on any given world. One planet the Ghosts visited was around WWII technology and stuck in trench warfare...another was a hive planet that has high-tech coming out the ass, including forcefields for whole cities...another was a planet where people lived in cities built on stilts because the air was toxic below a certain altitude. You could theoretically end up in any of the above mentioned planets and none were that bad.

I would go as far to say that much of the Imperium, and Gaunt's Ghosts have seen a lot of it, is probably not unlike the SW galaxy in terms of civilization just with a much harsher government and more prominent magical elements. Of course there will always be the death worlds and horrific factory planets where people have 49 hour workdays, but then again they probably see the same thing on the Outer regions of the SW galaxy where the corporations run wild and anarcho-capitalism is the name of the game.

[Samuel]

By their very nature the majority of the Imperiums citizens live in hive worlds- unless they have large space stations as well.

One planet the Ghosts visited was around WWII technology and stuck in trench warfare

Straight Silver. Only one of the series I read- I haven't managed to get my hands on the other books. The Choas backed forces are odd though. It is mentioned that both sides had their reinforcements about the same time (blood pact for the great enemy and Tanith's finest for the loyalists) but I don't see why neither side just slammed some munitions into the oppositings sides factories and mines.

Also, it wasn't WW2 tech. They are mentioned having admech personal working on a servitor so they weren't that down the tubes.

but then again they probably see the same thing on the Outer regions of the SW galaxy where the corporations run wild and anarcho-capitalism is the name of the game.

It is probably like old company mining towns. You are paid in script, which can only be redemmed in company stores and the prices are so high that the rate of people getting out is equal to the rate going in.

[Black Admiral]

One planet the Ghosts visited was around WWII technology and stuck in trench warfare

Straight Silver. Only one of the series I read- I haven't managed to get my hands on the other books. The Choas backed forces are odd though. It is mentioned that both sides had their reinforcements about the same time (blood pact for the great enemy and Tanith's finest for the loyalists) but I don't see why neither side just slammed some munitions into the oppositings sides factories and mines.

Theatre shielding, explicitly mentioned in context of covering sections of the trench lines, and I'd not be surprised if there were others protecting critical industrial/resource targets. Also, probably neither reinforcement group had any warships with them.

For the Guard, as well, it's quite possible that the Aexegarian High Command would've vetoed any such plan - no two ways about it, most of those guys were complete morons.

Also, it wasn't WW2 tech. They are mentioned having admech personal working on a servitor so they weren't that down the tubes.

More accurately WW1-tech with various high tech elements (the theatre shields, those Struthid Carabiniers, and probably other examples I can find if needed).

[Samuel]

Theatre shielding, explicitly mentioned in context of covering sections of the trench lines, and I'd not be surprised if there were others protecting critical industrial/resource targets. Also, probably neither reinforcement group had any warships with them.

You don't need warships to bombard a world. And I'm pretty sure the shields were that powerful- the Choas forces were attempting to crack them with ground based artillary (although they were massive things).

The best explanation is any successful bombardment would fuck up the climate too much for the otherside.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'll note that the real problem, like always, isnt the tech level per se. Its the sheer diversity (and hence inconsistency) of various aspects between worlds. I'm reading Brothers of the Snnake now and there are worlds that have 19th century or so troopers and tactics nad equipment (muskets and cannon and cavalry and shit) yet they also use laslocks, have some form of planetary defense weapons, servitors, detection gear (at least geiger counters), and so on and and so forth at least among the higher echelons of the society. That's not uncommon on Feudal/Feral worlds, really (where the world's leadership is also often part of the nobility.) And there are the Algothi Janissaries of course...

BTW besides Necromunda - I can also think of Hyrdaphur from the Shira calpurnia novels as well as Abnett's Eisenhorn/Ravenor books, or anything from Sandy Mitchell's writing, or Graham McNeill.... Hydraphur is a smaller Hive World ()There's probably Vervunhive from Necropolis too.)

[Norade]

Connor, I'm going to bow out of our debate as I simply lack the will a resources to debate you on a matter where you clearly know your own side far better than I know both of them combined. Thanks for enlightening me about 40k and not ripping me too badly.