SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread VIII

[K. A. Pital]

I will not only support Siege's opinion but I will remind you all, and our honourable Moderator, that last time Czech operated a state he sold it out to Beowulf in no time to protect himself from the mess he basically invented. Beowulf not only completely consumed his territory, but also kicked him out from power and made it a part of his state, now the former Czech "state" of Tian Jiao is nothing but a giant MESS warbase right in middle of Frequesue. During his "control" of the nation, Czech did the following "great acts": engineered a war he messed up badly, then conjured a nuclear weapon incident, and finally - the next time he wanted to enter the game again as "Emmeria", he planned an invasion of another even before his nation coming into existence, if I recall correctly, and created his entire Navy with that intent in mind (hence lots of large LPDs/LPHs). He also wrote fantasies about the "Emmerian Luftwaffe" creating 5th generation jets like the F-22 to defeat it's enemies, after which he was scorned by more than one player for his reckless, fantasy-land militarism.

We have all reasons to be more than wary of Czech's behaviour.

Someone has to be honest and Czech is one of those people whose nation in the real world would be considered more than a Pariah State, it would be a "Mad Man State".

[PeZook]

Let me play Devil's Advocate: we need some stirring in our nice warm soup. How about we let Czech write a nice, compelling backstory to his nation and present it to the world at large? We could then formulate our policy WRT to Emmeria based on their historical behavior.

Also, it's my opinion that his proximity to the Old Continent is as much an asset as a liability in the age of hypersonic cruise missiles and orbital bombers. We could literally launch a devastating nuclear strike in minutes.

[K. A. Pital]

Yes, if Czech provides a compelling reasonable history of his nation and at least somewhat shows the nuts and bolts behind his industrial and military development... that can be ok

[Bluewolf]

To be fair when it comes to nuclear subs. I am buying 4 off the NTF and no one has questioned that idea. I also already have 3 SSN's too in fact. I am just bringing it up as its not fair to slate Czech on it when I, a Duchy myself am getting a few. Now I have always thought that Cialan has had a fair naval industry and, having SSN's, would be able to properly handle them etc. The Vigilant's don't look too far off Sea Wolf's so I think that holds up.

Oh and the idea that you Duchy's can not get decent fleets is full of bullshit in my opinion. You don't need hoards of nuclear powered cruisers. To echo Ryan, when I did and redid my OOB, I had to stick to the same limit. Yes I was 1 or two points over but I don't think that really matters. I never overshot it badly. There are plenty of ways to build a fair military in game as well. For example I bought a lot off other nations which is quite common in real life too. Some make companies that make military hardware, meaning they can make affordable and practical stuff and sell it. You can't have everything you want as such but you can get what is a good comprimise. I mean the concequences of my buying are that I lose my countries surplus and have to make a few cuts. Thats the reality of my choice. I could not do it any other way. Yet now I am sitting here with high tech U Boats and fighters. He should have to stick to the rules like everyone else did (or should of).

Now I do agree with a gentle rise in points allocation over a period time. Like 2 points over every few years or something. Just so that any new players can "Keep up" as it were. Nothing fabulous but something. I also want to add that I want Czech to stay in the game. I don't hate him or anything and losing players is no fun, besides he has helped a lot with the map. I just don't want to see another Shep like incident or anything.

Oh and on CATO membership. I am merley talking about it and agreeing to go ahead with it. Then my parliament will vote on it and if it goes through, I shall be a CATO member. This kind of should of been done the other way round but it is of no matter. On top of that if there was not a parliamentary vote, my population would probably start chopping peoples
head's off.

EDIT: Would anyone here object to me also developing a bit of my countries potential naval background. It will all be within reason of course.

[PeZook]

Oh and on CATO membership. I am merley talking about it and agreeing to go ahead with it. Then my Cialan parliament will vote on it and if it goes through, I shall be a CATO member. This kind of should of been done the other way round but it is of no matter. On top of that if there was not a parliamentary vote, my population would probably start chopping peoples
head's off.

I'd suggest the "signing ceremony" in Stasograd to merely be a signing a letter of intent in front of the cameras.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Oh and the idea that you Duchy's can not get decent fleets is full of bullshit in my opinion. You don't need hoards of nuclear powered cruisers. To echo Ryan, when I did and redid my OOB, I had to stick to the same limit. Yes I was 1 or two points over but I don't think that really matters. I never overshot it badly. There are plenty of ways to build a fair military in game as well. For example I bought a lot off other nations which is quite common in real life too. Some make companies that make military hardware, meaning they can make affordable and practical stuff and sell it. You can't have everything you want as such but you can get what is a good comprimise. I mean the concequences of my buying are that I lose my countries surplus and have to make a few cuts. Thats the reality of my choice. I could not do it any other way. Yet now I am sitting here with high tech U Boats and fighters. He should have to stick to the rules like everyone else did (or should of).

No one is objecting to a duchy operating a squadron or two of gas turbine powered destroyers, but a multitude of mothballed ships? Which nitwitted country in the world would bother to buy ships only for them to rust? A few SSNs are probably ok, though one of the three will likely be tied up for maintenance at any time.

[Bluewolf]

Yeah I know what you mean. It is a bit too far to have so many ships that probably will not be used anyway and will jsut sit there draining funds.

I'd suggest the "signing ceremony" in Stasograd to merely be a signing a letter of intent in front of the cameras.

Yeah, its a good idea. I will go with that.

[Shroom Man 777]

If you want to make your nation safe - maybe you can FESTOON it with anti-air and anti-ship missiles to make it a literal no-fly zone for anyone who wants to fuck you over.

EDIT:

Why must Czechmate's nations be infringed upon us CATO players? It's not as if we haven't got enough to contend with.

I agree with Siege and Stas.

More importantly, though, I agree with Langley.

[Raj Ahten]

Seeing as we are talking of economic growth over time and all, I figure I'll update my orbat to include a higher GDP as if my economy had been growing at a sluggish 2% over the course of the game. Which works out to around $1.1 trillion. Recently with trade pacts with the NFT and so on growth has been better, but it was probably crap for years as well given all the military interventions and political stagnation in some periods.

[Bluewolf]

OK, feel free to shoot me down on this but I request to add 60.7 billion to my GPD and you may ask why I should be entitled to all that well I have been in this game for 4 years, in game time. On top of that I think, due to my industry and its peaks that 3% two years and 4% the other too are fine. I am a rapidly growing country and my industry would naturally peak and fall. On top of that, if I am not spending anything, I am gettinf surplus. I don't mind if I just get conked down to the 2% flat rate but I feel as if its worth asking. I have shown no signs of sabre rattling or anything except my expansion which was dearly needed. Plus its not as if I am going to become a superpower.

[Shroom Man 777]

Reminder to self:

Write article on procuring more CF-01 and CF-02s. Need more fighter designations. 'Cutthroat' and... what other name beginning with 'C' can I use?

Turn B-52 Shroomtofortress and B-1 Lancers into multirole maritime-capable bombers.

Challenger III tanks. Basically Shroomania's equivalent to Fingolfin's K2 and K3 tanks. Mars-pattern Challenger IIIs being rather up-gunned as well. TROPHY + 120/150mm gun.

CORVIN: Combine Objective Robotic Vehicle Interceptor Neutralizer UCAV

And something about missiles named CORPSE-FISTER and CUNTPUNCHER.

And other new Shroomanian military developments.

Too sleepy to write shit. Porno time.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Reminder to self:

Write article on procuring more CF-01 and CF-02s. Need more fighter designations. 'Cutthroat' and... what other name beginning with 'C' can I use?

Turn B-52 Shroomtofortress and B-1 Lancers into multirole maritime-capable bombers.

Challenger III tanks. Basically Shroomania's equivalent to Fingolfin's K2 and K3 tanks. Mars-pattern Challenger IIIs being rather up-gunned as well. TROPHY + 120/150mm gun.

CORVIN: Combine Objective Robotic Vehicle Interceptor Neutralizer UCAV

And something about missiles named CORPSE-FISTER and CUNTPUNCHER.

And other new Shroomanian military developments.

Too sleepy to write shit. Porno time.

It's 140mm... Well, it's closer to the B-3 Black Tigers.

Also.. er.. While that UCAV is interesting, it'd be a can of worms to get it to work right (and not get jammed too).

[phongn]

Turn B-52 Shroomtofortress and B-1 Lancers into multirole maritime-capable bombers.

The IRT will bid for a contract to upgrade your BUFF BONE BOMBER fleet

[Siege]

Why-ever would you want to use a preposterously huge caliber like 140mm?

A tank with a gun that large would be able to carry what, 30 rounds? You already have electrothermal cannons with supposedly a much higher muzzle velocity, why not use that instead?

[Beowulf]

140mm would require either two piece ammunition, slowing loading time, or a autoloader to use. Um, see: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=122524 (as found through google. Weird for SDN to be on the first page of results for something).

[Shroom Man 777]

Turn B-52 Shroomtofortress and B-1 Lancers into multirole maritime-capable bombers.

The IRT will bid for a contract to upgrade your BUFF BONE BOMBER fleet

Nice, you're catching in on the allits.

It's a fat project, so I guess an IRT company can get part of the contract - though Shroomanian companies will be part of the team too. But it's alright, right?

(EDIT: Normally I'd never trust the TREACHEROUS TONKINESE but since you made a great alliteration, you get to be one of the contractors for the BIG BUFF BONER BOMBER fleet!)

I'll ditch the 140mm gun then.

Maybe SOME specialist tanks can have 140mm DEVASTATOR cannons! For... blowing up bunkers? Hrm...

Eh, I don't need 140mm guns. Shroomania's an island, we're not going to expect massive tank battles anyway - not like the Byzantines with goddamn Arabians AND goddamn Japanistanis at their doorstep.

I wonder if I should go with unmanned turret/gunpod or stick with the traditional manned turret.

[Ryan Thunder]

The A-21 Cicada is a "4.75th generation" all-weather multi-role light fighter. It's chief advantage is in its weather-resistant stealth coatings, which make it difficult to track while not requiring excessive maintenance, and its low cost compared to true 5th generation aircraft. So, for an as yet to be determined price (depending on how many you want), you get a single-seat, single-engine fighter with 4 internal mountings and a gun pod. After market additions are avaliable that enable the missile racks and gun pod to mount and fire nearly anything you want.



Miratia is now producing A-21 Cicadas for export. Anybody interested?

[Steve]

Let's hear that alternative. 'Cause to be brutally honest I don't trust Emmeria any farther than I can throw it, and whilst my opinion shouldn't be decisive in this matter I'm obviously not the only one who feels that way. A lot of us (CATO players, that is) suspect that if you hand Czechmate a giant mothballed fleet, then one week in the game he'll sign a deal with Tian Xia or whomever and have it out of mothballs in no time. And then we'll have a pseudo-MESS state with a giant fleet sitting off the continent.

Yeah, thanks but no thanks.

It was annoying enough to have such a tiny yet bizarrely overmilitarized nation in the game when it was still sitting in an out-of-the-way corner of the map, it's just plain grating to shove that same nation in the face of established players and force them deal with it, particularly considering the history of the player who controls it. Ultimately this boils down to trust, and whichever way you turn it or try and sugarcoat it, Czechmate just does not have that particular quality in abundance right now.

Well, keep in mind that if he did something so egregious the moderator may have some harsh words for him and who he's working with. And a few bad, maybe crippling events for him to represent opposition to enhancing his fleet when he's got a seceded portion of the country glowering at his people from across a DMZ.

But yes, anticipating he needs to regain the trust of many players, I proposed to him taking the "Ireland" of the Emmerian islands and having it be an independent country as well, a breakaway nation like Polaria (Scotland). It'd be called Vitoze and have a primarily Italian ethnicity. As such, some of the equipment he claims, which wouldn't be so overdone for what was once a big Principality (in his history), would be in Vitozian hands instead of his, necessitating further cuts to the Emmerian OrBat.

Under this alternative, if Czech plays to best behavior for a decent amount of time - I was postulating a month or two IRL, maybe three or four to satisfy the most distrustful - we will permit a situation where Vitozians elect a reunionist government that restores the country to Emmeria.

And in the case of Duchies, well, how many Duchies from the start are actually left?

Baerne, Cialan, Misteria, Miratia, Langley, Caleigh. Not including Emmeria itself that's six active player nations, three of which joined or rejoined fairly recently and were not given any benefits to show for it. Now I'm not opposed to retroactively granting those existing nations some sort of benefit for their trouble, or even to granting new players some kind of leg up so they can to catch up. I do however question the form that benefit is supposed to take in this particular case - i.e. a mothballed fleet - for the aforementioned reasons; I just don't believe that fleet will remain mothballed for any appreciable amount of time.

I would actually want to permit them to bump up their GDP and such from the original limit. Hell, I've already increased mine by a bit to account for years of growth broken up by the economic aftershocks of the Pathogen War.

BTW, where is Zwinmar's country anyway?


As for Stas, with the exception of Emmeria's first act in-game to be planning the invasion of Tanvarika (which, admittedly, isn't as likely if he's off the OC coast instead of being a North Pacific country) I listed all that to him already. He gave his reasons and I pointed out that people generally don't trust him due to that stuff.

Seriously, I've not exactly been a fan of his behavior and a few months ago I was siding with Siege and Ryan and others in criticizing the size of his forces (and contemplating solving the problem for us all if he invaded Tanvarika unilaterally, I'll add). Right now I'm trying to match the lack of trust in him to giving him a fair chance to participate, since if he does prove a trustworthy and capable player it'll enrich the game. Hence my IM conversation with him and the various proposals. If he doesn't, well, let's cross that bridge when we get to it, hmmm?


Oh, and Shroom? No. I don't object to, say, shifting the Emmerian Isles a bit to the west, south-west, maybe closer to Canissia, but it's not being moved to off the Northeast American coast.


Raj, $1.1 Trillion? I thought you were a Principality, yeah, but a jump from $800B to $1100B is sounds a bit over the overall 20% or so increase of the last nine years you've postulated. As of 2015 or 2016 I had my GDP raised from $1.24T to $1.28T, since I figured that the collapse of world trade from the Pathogen War and the resulting economic woes would do a major number on economic growth.

[Bluewolf]

Wild Card that probably wont work but is worth asking Proposal time: Permission to bump it up by 80-100 billion!

[Shroom Man 777]

Haha, Vitoze. Man, Steve.

Why aren't you moving Emmeria to the North American coasts? Why is that out of the option? Just to keep North America looking like North America? Messica needed a hood ornament anyway.


I'm going to call the CF-01 and the CF-01 the 'Corsair' and 'Cutthroat' respectively.

[RogueIce]

There we go, Mirakar conference post done! I even framed the Indhopali paratroopers deploying as all being "part of the plan" for good measure.

Should be a nice little PR boost for me, Steve and Ryan. Raj, Karmic, Beo, if you want to make announcements showering us with praise in helping you out, no need to be bashful.

[Steve]

Wild Card that probably wont work but is worth asking Proposal time: Permission to bump it up by 80-100 billion!

Accounting for the world economic crash in 2010-2011 from the Pathogen War, I wouldn't be opposed to your GDP increasing by a bit over 12% since 2008. Therefore, how does +$50B sound? I may even go higher.

(This also reminds me that when I re-calculated my GDP I, heh, only really accounted for higher population.... Heh.)

(Note that with the Vitoze idea I'll be reducing Czech's GDP to account for that as well).

Haha, Vitoze. Man, Steve.

Why aren't you moving Emmeria to the North American coasts? Why is that out of the option? Just to keep North America looking like North America? Messica needed a hood ornament anyway.

Because I see no reason to, and frankly I thought CATO would like having Czech within easy bombing range.

However, I'll make a deal with you. I'll consider it if you agree that if I do so we'll do a setup where MESS states (maybe Tian Xia) begin backing the Polarians so CATO starts backing Emmeria.

That's right. You have to be nice to Czech and make him a prospect of an ally.

[Bluewolf]

Accounting for the world economic crash in 2010-2011 from the Pathogen War, I wouldn't be opposed to your GDP increasing by a bit over 12% since 2008. Therefore, how does +$50B sound?

Seeing as I started in 2013 with 405 billion, wouldn't the economic effects be far lesser as that crunch would of hit me in those two years yet I have another two to financially recover. On top of that many of my industries would of gotten a boost as they are not large players in the market and are more local meaning that people more localised to me can buy stuff unlike an economy that exports everywhere. I am not trying to be an ass, I am just dicussing it with you.

[phongn]

Turn B-52 Shroomtofortress and B-1 Lancers into multirole maritime-capable bombers.

The IRT will bid for a contract to upgrade your BUFF BONE BOMBER fleet

Nice, you're catching in on the allits.

It's a fat project, so I guess an IRT company can get part of the contract - though Shroomanian companies will be part of the team too. But it's alright, right?

(EDIT: Normally I'd never trust the TREACHEROUS TONKINESE but since you made a great alliteration, you get to be one of the contractors for the BIG BUFF BONER BOMBER fleet!)

Hey now, the IRT always upholds its contracts and agreements fairly. It's the surest way to long-term profits, after all! Plus, if we were treacherous, all of our banks and industries and stuff would fail

Also, here's the information on the LLE BUFF project

[Steve]

Accounting for the world economic crash in 2010-2011 from the Pathogen War, I wouldn't be opposed to your GDP increasing by a bit over 12% since 2008. Therefore, how does +$50B sound?

Seeing as I started in 2013 with 405 billion, wouldn't the economic effects be far lesser as that crunch would of hit me in those two years yet I have another two to financially recover. On top of that many of my industries would of gotten a boost as they are not large players in the market and are more local meaning that people more localised to me can buy stuff unlike an economy that exports everywhere. I am not trying to be an ass, I am just dicussing it with you.

Check your PMs.