The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[Stuart]

I thought the Ticos had SPY-1B(V), not SPY-1D(V).

Depends on the variant, upgrade and previous refit. The Ticos are all over the place, some have SPY-1B, some SPY-1C, some SPY-1D. Soon, there'll be SPY-1E added to the mix. Within each of those sub-type are a whole load of variants. In fact, I doubt if any two CG-47s have exactly the same system on board. The DDG-51s are a lot more standardized.

[Stuart]

Story has continued to be very entertaining to me, although the constant reference to the previous war as the "Curb Stomp War" is a bit of a turn off. Sort of demeans it a little bit to me.

It's not constant, its just now and then. It parallels the references to the early stages of WW2 as "The Phony War" and some other choice examples. What happens is that people go into a war with a terrified anticipation of what is to come (in WW2, it was expected that cities would be made uninhabitable by bombing within days or weeks at the most, that there would be mass gas attacks on civilians with enormous casualties. You won't find it in any official histories and the extent of the panic is only just now coming out but in cities like Southampton and Portsmouth, people left the city at night and came back at dawn - with consequent effects on war production. In the UK children were evacuated from the cities, some to places in the countryside, others abroad to Canada and South Africa.Then, people began to realize it wasn't happening. Public mood swung the other way; the war became "The Phony War", it's not true to say it wasn't taken seriously but the comparison between terrified anticipation and reality was very marked. By the way, we had much the same thing in ODS and OIF. ODS became the "Hundred Hour War" for a while while the initial phase of OIF became "The Drive Up"

The same thing happened in Armageddon. People went into the war expecting to fight a dreadfully powerful foe with the issue in the gravest of doubt and fully expecting horrendous casualties. Then, the war was won in a canter without anything like the expected casualty toll. So, just as happened in the Second World War, public mood swung the other way. It was regarded as being an easy victory, one won easily and at relatively little cost to us but dreadful damage to our enemies. In modern slang, a curb-stomp. And so, the campaign against Hell became known as "The Curb-Stomp War". Again the comparison is between anticipation and reality, not reality itself.

Note how in WW2 and (again to a lesser extent in OIF) public mood swung the other way when things got bad.

[Xenophobe3691]

So now we know why Uriel's effects don't work so well in the richer areas of the world; it's education and critical thinking, as well as awareness of the danger, that causes his effects to work so poorly.

As an aside, I wonder how this would affect people in twelve step programs, given their focus on "surrender"

[Darth Yan]

Great update as always although I am wondering what effect this will have

[Pelranius]

So now we know why Uriel's effects don't work so well in the richer areas of the world; it's education and critical thinking, as well as awareness of the danger, that causes his effects to work so poorly.

As an aside, I wonder how this would affect people in twelve step programs, given their focus on "surrender"

I would be more worried about people on various medications that affect the mental state (whether intentionally or as a side effect) and the mentally underdeveloped. They won't all fall down and die, but they are a lot more vulnerable.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Anyone else catch the Blackbird? "Habu-zero-one I have you at altitute level nine nine five and ground speed two eight seven zero." Shut that cocky little Hornet driver right up.

[JN1]

Anyone else catch the Blackbird? "Habu-zero-one I have you at altitute level nine nine five and ground speed two eight seven zero." Shut that cocky little Hornet driver right up.

Certainly could be an SR-71, the call-sign and altitude certainly fit. However Groom Lake is not a million miles away, so who knows what it could be.
The Senior Chief certainly seems to suggest that unusual radar traces in the area are not uncommon.

[Pelranius]

It seems to me that there will be an effort to find Uriel's victims after the war (assuming that they haven't been found by then), which would be a major impetus for exploring the other bubble universes, if I may still use that term.

[Baughn]

Heh.

I'm a bit leery about using the term "universe" for these things since, by definition, the universe is simply everything that can be influenced by our part of it, or that can influence our part, or that can be be influenced by somewhere we can influence, or.. well, you get the idea. These bubble universes certainly seem to fit the bill; just because you can't get to a place doesn't mean it's in another universe, but if you can then it definitely isn't.

Popular nomenclature is often hard to control, but in this case I don't think they'll ever be using "universe". "Bubbles", or "pockets", perhaps, but considering the story they'll probably end up as "hellscapes", or some other wording that relates to their history.

(Cosmology already has a wide variety of wording for these things, but the closest fit I can see is "branes", and despite the possible popularity with the zombie crowds I don't see it entering common english anytime soon.)

[von Neufeld]

Anyone else catch the Blackbird? "Habu-zero-one I have you at altitute level nine nine five and ground speed two eight seven zero." Shut that cocky little Hornet driver right up.

I hope it's something a bit more exciting, like an Aurora.

[Pelranius]

Heh.

I'm a bit leery about using the term "universe" for these things since, by definition, the universe is simply everything that can be influenced by our part of it, or that can influence our part, or that can be be influenced by somewhere we can influence, or.. well, you get the idea. These bubble universes certainly seem to fit the bill; just because you can't get to a place doesn't mean it's in another universe, but if you can then it definitely isn't.

Popular nomenclature is often hard to control, but in this case I don't think they'll ever be using "universe". "Bubbles", or "pockets", perhaps, but considering the story they'll probably end up as "hellscapes", or some other wording that relates to their history.

(Cosmology already has a wide variety of wording for these things, but the closest fit I can see is "branes", and despite the possible popularity with the zombie crowds I don't see it entering common english anytime soon.)

The problem I have with using simply 'bubbles' is that we've seen how those places operate with different rules for physics, and your definition of universe, IMO, seems a bit too board to take into account those various differences.

[Baughn]

They don't operate on different laws of physics, though. They can't, really; if you have two sets of laws, then you also need a deeper set to govern how those sets interact, and the deeper set will be the real laws, with the superficial ones merely data. There's no need for anything that drastic here, though.

The only thing that's been shown is that the cosmological state of the local area affects how matter behaves, and that these effects last for some time after the cosmology changes. This is nothing new; it's basically the same thing as natural magnets, which "freeze" the local magnetic field when they solidify, and thereafter maintain that field even when taken into a different one. Instead of a magnetic field, here, it's probably geometry - the value of Pi, the exact connectivity of planck volumes, whatever - but the same principle applies.

As we don't claim magnets from the south pole to be operating on different laws of physics from magnets from the equator, we can't do so here either.

[Baughn]

Oh, and Stuart:

It is a testable (and very, very well confirmed) prediction of quantum physics that individual particles don't exist, only configurations of particles; that is to say, that "electron A here, electron B there" is the same state as "electron B here, electron A there".

This little fact should allow for some very simple experiments to probe the exact nature of the apparent difference in maxwell's laws between cosmologies. If the differences really are attached to individual particles - well, those don't exist. Let me rephrase. If there really are multiple "kinds" of electrons, one kind being generated by particles from hell (which would themselves be different kinds than earth particles), and another being generated by particles from earth, then this should be readily testable.

It'd be a nice touch if, next time you have a Science Session(tm) in the story, a quantum physicist mentions something along those lines. Keep it vague, maybe something along the lines of "Well, apparently we need to expand the standard model again. Antiparticles just weren't enough, were they?".

Also. I previously provided this link in private messages to various people, but since quantum physics seems increasingly applicable to the story, and I feel everyone could use some understanding of it, I can recommend reading http://lesswrong.com/lw/r5/the_quantum_ ... _sequence/. It's relatively simple and easy to grasp, without actually skipping anything important.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Heh.

I'm a bit leery about using the term "universe" for these things since, by definition, the universe is simply everything that can be influenced by our part of it, or that can influence our part, or that can be be influenced by somewhere we can influence, or.. well, you get the idea. These bubble universes certainly seem to fit the bill; just because you can't get to a place doesn't mean it's in another universe, but if you can then it definitely isn't.

Popular nomenclature is often hard to control, but in this case I don't think they'll ever be using "universe". "Bubbles", or "pockets", perhaps, but considering the story they'll probably end up as "hellscapes", or some other wording that relates to their history.

(Cosmology already has a wide variety of wording for these things, but the closest fit I can see is "branes", and despite the possible popularity with the zombie crowds I don't see it entering common english anytime soon.)

The problem I have with using simply 'bubbles' is that we've seen how those places operate with different rules for physics, and your definition of universe, IMO, seems a bit too board to take into account those various differences.

Now you guys know why the folks in the Tank had so much trouble that they had an updated-daily-lexicon of dimensional terms.

[Darth Fanboy]

It's not constant, its just now and then. It parallels the references to the early stages of WW2 as "The Phony War" and some other choice examples. What happens is that people go into a war with a terrified anticipation of what is to come (in WW2, it was expected that cities would be made uninhabitable by bombing within days or weeks at the most, that there would be mass gas attacks on civilians with enormous casualties. You won't find it in any official histories and the extent of the panic is only just now coming out but in cities like Southampton and Portsmouth, people left the city at night and came back at dawn - with consequent effects on war production. In the UK children were evacuated from the cities, some to places in the countryside, others abroad to Canada and South Africa.Then, people began to realize it wasn't happening. Public mood swung the other way; the war became "The Phony War", it's not true to say it wasn't taken seriously but the comparison between terrified anticipation and reality was very marked. By the way, we had much the same thing in ODS and OIF. ODS became the "Hundred Hour War" for a while while the initial phase of OIF became "The Drive Up"

That explanation covers the UK, but unless I am mistake I don't think that the countries on the European mainlaind and Asia who suffered casualties in the seven or eight figure range feel quite as fortunate.

The same thing happened in Armageddon. People went into the war expecting to fight a dreadfully powerful foe with the issue in the gravest of doubt and fully expecting horrendous casualties. Then, the war was won in a canter without anything like the expected casualty toll. So, just as happened in the Second World War, public mood swung the other way. It was regarded as being an easy victory, one won easily and at relatively little cost to us but dreadful damage to our enemies. In modern slang, a curb-stomp. And so, the campaign against Hell became known as "The Curb-Stomp War". Again the comparison is between anticipation and reality, not reality itself.

Note how in WW2 and (again to a lesser extent in OIF) public mood swung the other way when things got bad.

I just have a hard time believing that even with the favorable outcome to humanity, we would refer to an event with such ramifications in that way. It seems almost demeaning to me. But this is all personal opinion mind you.

[Darth Fanboy]

So now we know why Uriel's effects don't work so well in the richer areas of the world; it's education and critical thinking, as well as awareness of the danger, that causes his effects to work so poorly.

If it's education and critical thikning though, wouldn't the casualty rate amongst infants and young children be high regardless of where Uriel attacked? I guess the Rottweiler could have gone to obedience school, but I thought it was clear that the aluminum insulation was one of the bigger factors, now coupled with the will to resist Uriel's power instead of blindly accepting death.

[Stuart]

That explanation covers the UK, but unless I am mistake I don't think that the countries on the European mainlaind and Asia who suffered casualties in the seven or eight figure range feel quite as fortunate.

It;s not just the U.K. or U.S.A its pretty much universal. We get the reverse effect in World War One where everybody was expecting a quick, easy victory. They didn't get it and that made the trench warfare that came afterwards seem so much worse. Worldwide, people don't compare this with that. They compare the expectations of what they were going to get with the reality of what they got.

I just have a hard time believing that even with the favorable outcome to humanity, we would refer to an event with such ramifications in that way. It seems almost demeaning to me. But this is all personal opinion mind you.

Yet, that's exactly what we do do. Look back at history and you can see the same thing happening over and over again. Exploiting it in the aid of the war effort is what governments do.

[The Vortex Empire]

The last chapter was creepy. Great job capturing the feeling of Uriel's attack. Now let's just hope that Cruiser can kill that SOB once and for all.

If it's radar is more than powerful enough to destroy the electronics in the city, what would it do to Uriel?

[Eulogy]

The last chapter was creepy. Great job capturing the feeling of Uriel's attack. Now let's just hope that Cruiser can kill that SOB once and for all.

If it's radar is more than powerful enough to destroy the electronics in the city, what would it do to Uriel?

The same thing he's trying to do to his targets, presumably.

Speaking of his power, if sometime in the future we managed to replicate it, could we use it to say, sterilze food, destroy red algae, - and when our understanding and control of it becomes great enough - kill pests, exterminate vermin, destroy cancerous tumours and even purge infections? This looks like it could have great potential if we knew how it worked.

[Baughn]

How tightly can it be focused?

If they could modify the radars to focus tightly enough, they'd double nicely as angel-cooking units. Identify angel, tighten the beam.. couple seconds later you'll have one dead angel, and can go back to scanning for the next one.

[Darth Fanboy]

snip

I guess I just don't see how referring to the previous war with Hell with a slang term helps serve the government or the public. A lot of things changed even though Hell was defeated and that the Message and the subsequent war could be the most important part of human history in the timeline you have created. Why would we refer to the most pivotal moments of human history with a slang term? I would think that the people in charge would want to treat it more seriously. Doesn't exactly inspire a lot of vigilance.

[Darth Yan]

To be honest, I sort of hope Uriel lives. I sort of sympethize with him, even if he is a mass murderer, because he is sympathetic. He believes he's doing the right thing, so he's not necessarily evil, and realizing that human will is what block's his powers might cause him to change. Although if that happens intergrating won't be easy

[JBG]

A good chapter Stuart, I particularly liked the descriptions of Normandy's capabilities and the push back, from man and dog, against Uriel.

I wonder how my cats would react.....

And nice to see that old aviation joke about height and speed checks. It usually ends with a Blackbird

[Brovane]

Anyone else catch the Blackbird? "Habu-zero-one I have you at altitute level nine nine five and ground speed two eight seven zero." Shut that cocky little Hornet driver right up.

I hope it's something a bit more exciting, like an Aurora.

I thought the same thing until I looked closer at the speed. The SR-71 tops out at around 1900 knots and the story indicated a speed of 2870 which either we have a typo and they intended it to be 1870 which is very plausible our this was something else than a SR-71. This part in the story was take just about word for word from a actual SR-71 story.

[The Vortex Empire]

I wonder how my cats would react.....

Without the absolute loyalty to it's owner, something dogs have but cats lack, your cats would die.