KrauserKrauser hyperventilating(Obama's Gates comment)

[Kamakazie Sith]

I also find it interesting that the assumption is that Gates drew the crowd and not the presence of police officers/cars outside in the afternoon causing curious neighbours to come investigate.

I think that assumption is based off reading the police report. However, you raise a good point. The presence of police vehicles, especially in numbers, does draw a crowd.

[LMSx]

HLG: The police report says I was engaged in loud and tumultuous behavior. That’s a joke. Because I have a severe bronchial infection which I contracted in China and for which I was treated and have a doctor’s report from the Peninsula hotel in Beijing. So I couldn’t have yelled. I can’t yell even today, I’m not fully cured.

I'm now thinking it was very foolish of me to characterize Gates' behavior as asshole earlier, at the most based on the police report it should have been called noisy, and this recent quote undercuts even that. Reading Duchess' reaction does emphasize how minorities can have vastly different interactions with the police.

[SirNitram]

I also find it interesting that the assumption is that Gates drew the crowd and not the presence of police officers/cars outside in the afternoon causing curious neighbours to come investigate.

I think that assumption is based off reading the police report. However, you raise a good point. The presence of police vehicles, especially in numbers, does draw a crowd.

Anecdotally, I believe everyone in Harvard has a built in sense for theatre, and this drew them.

But that's just from one semester's observations.

[CarsonPalmer]

I was just pointing out that it's really fucking easy for you white people to brush off the notion that it might actually be understandable for a black man to react that way, in that circumstance. Oh no, it means he's an asshole!

"Color" me skeptical, but I have a hard time understanding a Harvard professor reacting that way, or having that big a chip on his shoulder. I expect a higher standard of comportment from a tenured professor, regardless of color or perceived provocation. Somehow, I doubt Cambridge MA is a hotbed of racism, unlike, oh, rural Florida. The man is in the elite of America's university staff, and acted like a community college gym teacher on his worst day. And what's with the "you white people" shit? I didn't see that one coming from you.

For Christ's sake, Skip Gates was born in West Virginia in 1950. That means that he grew up in the segregated South, and was a teenager when you had riots in the cities and George Wallace standing in schoolhouse doors. Maybe a man of that experience should be given a little leeway when it comes to "having a chip on his shoulder about race", especially when his bad day of locking himself out of his house began to include a policeman threatening to arrest him in his own house!

[Darth Wong]

You're wasting your breath. Chocula is obviously one of those right-wing smug white assholes who thinks that any visible minority who complains about race is a whiner, and any visible minority who tends to see racism in police behaviour is just paranoid. He believes racism is largely a thing of the past, and that white men are now the principal victims of racism. It's not an uncommon mindset; it is in fact very common among right-wing party-line types.

Racism is clearly an exaggerated problem in his mind, since he's never personally experienced it. His idea of racism is white firefighters having to take a redesigned test along with everyone else.

[Intio]

and that white men are now the principal victims of racism

I'd say it was a much wider phenomenon. Large majorities that are used to being the majority, say for historical reasons, do not view oppression as being in a sudden minority and attacked for it. They view any dimunation of their majority as a form of oppression. The fact that a clear majority is still in a position of strength does now assuage the, relatively new, sense of being impinged in some way.

You see it all the time when Christians whine about marginal representations of other religions in public. Or when white bosses complain about politically correct language - when all they are sacrificing is a few words so that non-white members of staff do not stand the chance of constant slurs. Or those studies that were conducted decades ago (in both the US and the UK, I believe) asking white people and black people to estimate what they consider to be a harmonious racial mix on a street. Black respondants gave answers that approximated to 50/50, white respondants responded with 90/10 in favour of whites.

As Wong alluded to, most people will not think of the overall situation, they will 'feel' oppression based on their own personal experiences and situations. Hence the infamous:

[Ryan Thunder]

Yes, clearly, I bear equal responsibility for past atrocities (that happened decades before I was even born) and must therefore put up with whatever bullshit stereotypes are applied to me and whatever attitude is given to me by the descendants of the victims.

Oh, wait, I complained about it, I must be a "smug white fucker."

[CarsonPalmer]

Yes, clearly, I bear equal responsibility for past atrocities (that happened decades before I was even born) and must therefore put up with whatever bullshit stereotypes are applied to me and whatever attitude is given to me by the descendants of the victims.

Oh, wait, I complained about it, I must be a "smug white fucker."

You moron, you missed a few key points:

1. Skip Gates is no "descendant of the victim", he was born in 1950. That means he probably went to a segregated elementary school, and put up with the massive resistance garbage of the 1950's. So he was the victim. Don't try and paint him as generations removed from segregation, just because you weren't alive then.

2. You don't bear responsibility for it, but you ought to have a little bit of human understanding and respect the fact that maybe, just maybe, a man who grew up in the segregated South ought to get a little bit of leeway when it comes to calling racism when a police officer shows up at his home.

3. Even if Gates was entirely unreasonable, and just an asshole in general, that doesn't mean he should be sent to prison for it!

[Ryan Thunder]

You moron, you missed a few key points:

1. Skip Gates is no "descendant of the victim", he was born in 1950. That means he probably went to a segregated elementary school, and put up with the massive resistance garbage of the 1950's. So he was the victim. Don't try and paint him as generations removed from segregation, just because you weren't alive then.

Mike was making a general point, if I'm not mistaken.

And even if he wasn't, it's not the 1950's any more? Things have changed? Get used to them? i.e. don't fly off the handle at police officers trying to protect your private property?

2. You don't bear responsibility for it, but you ought to have a little bit of human understanding and respect the fact that maybe, just maybe, a man who grew up in the segregated South ought to get a little bit of leeway when it comes to calling racism when a police officer shows up at his home.

A bit, sure. That doesn't justify his disorderly conduct, however. Telling the officer to fuck off is one thing, chasing him out and continuing to harrass him is an entirely different matter.

3. Even if Gates was entirely unreasonable, and just an asshole in general, that doesn't mean he should be sent to prison for it!

Well, no. But unless that's an unusual punishment in that area I don't see how the wrongdoing could be pinned on the officer for arresting him.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, clearly, I bear equal responsibility for past atrocities (that happened decades before I was even born) and must therefore put up with whatever bullshit stereotypes are applied to me and whatever attitude is given to me by the descendants of the victims.

Oh, wait, I complained about it, I must be a "smug white fucker."

Yes, you are. After all, you just assumed that all of this ended "decades before [you were] even born". The fact is that old-school Anglo-Saxon racism persists; a person with an Anglo-Saxon name is much more likely to get called for a job interview than a person with an "ethnic" surname, even if their resumes are otherwise identical.

The fact is that white racism against minorities has not been vanquished. Toady little shits like you act as if it's all a thing of the past and that minorities should stop talking about it. It's even worse when you act as if a person who lived through the worst of the civil rights era has no right to have a chip on his shoulder about race and white cops. It's so easy for you to dismiss that whole history, isn't it? "Get over it", you say. That is precisely what makes you a smug white fucker.

I'm often the first person to say that a lot of black cultural attitudes in the US are logically counterproductive, but that doesn't mean I'm going to casually dismiss their anger or their resentment, the way a smug white fucker like yourself does.

[Rahvin]

Yes, clearly, I bear equal responsibility for past atrocities (that happened decades before I was even born) and must therefore put up with whatever bullshit stereotypes are applied to me and whatever attitude is given to me by the descendants of the victims.

Oh, wait, I complained about it, I must be a "smug white fucker."

Yes, you are. After all, you just assumed that all of this ended "decades before [you were] even born". The fact is that old-school Anglo-Saxon racism persists; a person with an Anglo-Saxon name is much more likely to get called for a job interview than a person with an "ethnic" surname, even if their resumes are otherwise identical.

The fact is that white racism against minorities has not been vanquished. Toady little shits like you act as if it's all a thing of the past and that minorities should stop talking about it. It's even worse when you act as if a person who lived through the worst of the civil rights era has no right to have a chip on his shoulder about race and white cops. It's so easy for you to dismiss that whole history, isn't it? "Get over it", you say. That is precisely what makes you a smug white fucker.

I'm often the first person to say that a lot of black cultural attitudes in the US are logically counterproductive, but that doesn't mean I'm going to casually dismiss their anger or their resentment, the way a smug white fucker like yourself does.

White people basically cannot have much perspective when it comes to racism in the US (and from Ryan Thunder's comment, Canada as well).

I used to have a mentality like Ryan's when I lived in the midwest and northeast. I barely even knew any black people, let alone had any perspective on what being a minority in America really means.

The laws have changed, and people's mindsets are changing. But racism is far from gone. I didn't really start to change my understanding until I moved away from my suburban childhood and out into the real world. Actually meeting people from different backgrounds helped me gain a lot of perspective. Seeing how I was treated as a white male as opposed to, say, my black boss at the time (I was let off for speeding more than 15 MPH over the limit, mandatory loss of license, I got a warning; my boss got pulled over for driving while black, apparently he "wasn't wearing his seatbelt" when of course he was) helped a great deal.

Then there was my boss at my last job, who not only quoted the Bible at me in my performance review, but also told several of us that he doesn't like black people.

Times haven't changed nearly enough. This didn't end decades ago any more than it ended when slavery was abolished. Having a strong reaction to perceived racism is entirely justified - passive reactions to the actual racism that is commonplace even today simply perpetuates it.

[Kamakazie Sith]

3. Even if Gates was entirely unreasonable, and just an asshole in general, that doesn't mean he should be sent to prison for it!

Who says he's being sent to prison? Even if he was convicted in court for disorderly conduct he would not go to prison. He'd likely have to pay a fine.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Then there was my boss at my last job, who not only quoted the Bible at me in my performance review, but also told several of us that he doesn't like black people.

Times haven't changed nearly enough. This didn't end decades ago any more than it ended when slavery was abolished. Having a strong reaction to perceived racism is entirely justified - passive reactions to the actual racism that is commonplace even today simply perpetuates it.

It still pops up where you least expect it. Before I moved to modesto, I was looking at appartments and decided to visit 5 complexes in 1 day. At the third complex, the woman who managed the place was an unassuming white lady in her mid 40's. When telling me about all it had to offer, she told me 'This is a nice place, there's hardly any colored people here'. That took my brain a few moments to register and realize 'Yes, she really did just say that'. I don't know if she was just paying a courtesy of one superior white person to another, or whether I looked like I might not move in unless I was assured a 'coloreds free' environment, but I declined to move into that place.

[18-Till-I-Die]

So again, some black guy gets fucked around with by cops, and as usual a horde of people (not surprising, one is Kamikaze Sith) leap to defend the cop against the "evil nigger with an attitude!"

Wow, it's nice to know that absolutely NO progress has happened AT ALL in that arena.

At this point, I've long since accepted that there are in fact some people who could watch a video of a man being literally raped by a police officer, who then looks at the camera and says "I'm raping a human being, and I'm doing it out of malice!", and they would still try and find a reason why it was the victim's fault somehow. Or say the victim had it coming because he's resisting somehow...or whatever.

So here we have one side saying "Maybe he was angry because he was in HIS FUCKING HOUSE and being dicked around with by some cops for no apparent logical reason" and the other side says "It's the victim's fault somehow, he had it coming because he was resisting". Of course, the evidence of this is the cop's word because they never lie, only their victims do.

Frankly this whole discussion is a non-starter. Kamikaze Sith, Krauser and the rest would rather cut off their dicks and eat them than admit a cop could EVER, EVER possibly do anything wrong. Oh they try and pretend like they could accept it as a possibility but it's as far from their minds as possible. And that is why black people get repeatedly fucked up by cops and NO ONE ever fucking tries to tie these people's hands so they can't do this shit anymore. Really has anything changed at all since Diallo got his brains shot out by some cops...no of course not. Because that was his fault too, right Krauser? Fucking nigger he should have known his wallet was gun shaped!

And don't fucking DARE tell me I'm over reacting you asswipes, this whole thing is about a bunch of white people over reacting to a black man in his own house, including this thread, so fuck you I'm damn well over reacting because you don't seem to absorb information unless someone pours it down your fucking throats. I'm sick of people who tell me that racism is some illusion I'm experiencing, why don't you go experience the illusion of choking to death on dick since dick is all you know about what racism is actually like...and I'm not even experiencing the worst of it just the tail end of some smug, stupid white college kids who think they're more enlightened then the people who blew Emit Till away because they one time shook a black guy's hand.

[Kamakazie Sith]

So again, some black guy gets fucked around with by cops, and as usual a horde of people (not surprising, one is Kamikaze Sith) leap to defend the cop against the "evil nigger with an attitude!"

Are you accusing me a racism, 18? Do you honestly think that if Gates were white my position would be different? No, my position is based off the detail in the police report which I don't dismiss out of hand and the nature of the call, a burglary in progress, which Sgt. Crowley handled at a lower level of force than what is common. With a burglary in progress or stolen cars people are taken into custody at gun point.

Also, my position has been that both are at fault for how this went down. If the police report is to be believed than Gates should have calmed down when being informed that he'd be placed under arrest when he continued to act in such a manner that from Sgt. Crowley's point of view was causing a disturbance that met the elements for disorderly conduct. However, even believing the police report I think Sgt. Crowley went overboard when he decided to book Gates into jail rather than release him on citation.

Wow, it's nice to know that absolutely NO progress has happened AT ALL in that arena.

At this point, I've long since accepted that there are in fact some people who could watch a video of a man being literally raped by a police officer, who then looks at the camera and says "I'm raping a human being, and I'm doing it out of malice!", and they would still try and find a reason why it was the victim's fault somehow. Or say the victim had it coming because he's resisting somehow...or whatever.

Those people sound like unreasonable people. Do you know of any on this board?

So here we have one side saying "Maybe he was angry because he was in HIS FUCKING HOUSE and being dicked around with by some cops for no apparent logical reason" and the other side says "It's the victim's fault somehow, he had it coming because he was resisting". Of course, the evidence of this is the cop's word because they never lie, only their victims do.

Nobody said Gates was resisting. Have you read the thread or the police report or are you just jumping the gun? I'm thinking you're jumping the gun.

Frankly this whole discussion is a non-starter. Kamikaze Sith, Krauser and the rest would rather cut off their dicks and eat them than admit a cop could EVER, EVER possibly do anything wrong. Oh they try and pretend like they could accept it as a possibility but it's as far from their minds as possible. And that is why black people get repeatedly fucked up by cops and NO ONE ever fucking tries to tie these people's hands so they can't do this shit anymore. Really has anything changed at all since Diallo got his brains shot out by some cops...no of course not. Because that was his fault too, right Krauser? Fucking nigger he should have known his wallet was gun shaped!

Don't pretend you know me, 18. Due to your emotional outrage you're demonstrating that you aren't even qualified to make judgments about peoples character.

And don't fucking DARE tell me I'm over reacting you asswipes, this whole thing is about a bunch of white people over reacting to a black man in his own house, including this thread, so fuck you I'm damn well over reacting because you don't seem to absorb information unless someone pours it down your fucking throats. I'm sick of people who tell me that racism is some illusion I'm experiencing, why don't you go experience the illusion of choking to death on dick since dick is all you know about what racism is actually like...and I'm not even experiencing the worst of it just the tail end of some smug, stupid white college kids who think they're more enlightened then the people who blew Emit Till away because they one time shook a black guy's hand.

You are umm over reacting.

Or maybe for you it's about dismissing the police report right off the bat because it's a black man versus a white cop? Sgt. Crowley's partner was black, but I guess he's just a blue sheep because he hasn't come forward and stated how racist of a man Sgt. Crowley is, right?

From my position the only reasonable conclusion is that both are telling the truth from their perspective and that both are in the wrong. I'll even say that Sgt. Crowley is more so in the wrong because he should know how to de-escalate a situation but I don't think he should lose his job over it because maybe he tried or maybe he was also having a bad day, like Gates.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Which cop was black, and which was hispanic?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Which cop was black, and which was hispanic?

My mistake. I misread something and I was under the impression that Officer Figueroa was african american. He's actually latino. Still, my point remains the same.

[Darth Wong]

That is an entirely different subject from the question of whether Gates has no right to have a chip on his shoulder about race, as some of the smug white fuckers in this thread are saying.

[Kamakazie Sith]

That is an entirely different subject from the question of whether Gates has no right to have a chip on his shoulder about race, as some of the smug white fuckers in this thread are saying.

If you are responding to me. I haven't been involved in such a discussion about whether or not Gates has a right to have a chip on his shoulder.

I wouldn't be surprised if he has good reason, but even someone with a chip on their shoulder should be able to recognize when they're going too far or about to cross a line especially after being warned twice. That being said, I do hold Crowley accountable because he should be able to recognize a sensitive situation and know how to de-escalate it without resorting to an arrest or if he couldn't de-escalate it then he could just walk away because this arrest didn't serve any public safety purpose and Sgt. Crowley was part of the equation of the disorderly conduct.

I agree with Gates that this is a learning moment but it's a learning moment for both sides for police and persons who have a chip on their shoulder.

18s post is a good example. He has no clue what he's talking about but he's implied that I'm a racist simply because I don't dismiss Crowley's report just because Gates is saying he was mistreated and that I DARE to explain Sgt. Crowley's reasoning for making the arrest. He's doing this from a position of emotional rage instead of objectively examining this thread. He completely dismisses the fact that had Gates been white I'd still be in here. Circumstances like that are rare because it's likely that had Gates been white this wouldn't receive media attention and nobody would care.

[Ryan Thunder]

That is an entirely different subject from the question of whether Gates has no right to have a chip on his shoulder about race, as some of the smug white fuckers in this thread are saying.

No, he does not have a right to automatically assume that every white cop who so much as looks at him funny is a racist pigfucker.

So, let's assume that he was subjected to abuse. That his abusers happened to be Caucasian is a mere triviality. If it were myself in place of the officer; I did not abuse him, therefore I share no blame for it, therefore directing any of his anger at me or even suspecting me of being like his abusers is not only unfair but racist in and of itself. I'm not them. Deal.

There is nothing "smug" about that.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'll concede the point that biologically one's status and the respect given to one is, a lot more psychologically important to men, and so I may be hasty in condemning Gates for being unable to avoid getting angry, Mike, though I never objected to the idea that he had a right to be bitter or hateful, just... I felt it foolish to act on those emotions, for the sake of survival?

[Intio]

Sgt. Crowley's partner was black, but I guess he's just a blue sheep because he hasn't come forward and stated how racist of a man Sgt. Crowley is, right?

My mistake. I misread something and I was under the impression that Officer Figueroa was african american. He's actually latino. Still, my point remains the same.

Does it? A Latino cop would never tolerate, or even support, white on black racism?

No, he does not have a right to automatically assume that every white cop who so much as looks at him funny is a racist pigfucker.

So, let's assume that he was subjected to abuse. That his abusers happened to be Caucasian is a mere triviality. If it were myself in place of the officer; I did not abuse him, therefore I share no blame for it, therefore directing any of his anger at me or even suspecting me of being like his abusers is not only unfair but racist in and of itself. I'm not them. Deal.

There is nothing "smug" about that.

No, there isn't. Unfortunately you have a habit of not paying the slightest attention to what people actually say.

I was going to quote your earlier post, but there is no need - since both do the same thing. You in no way respond to the points that people are posting in this thread; instead you seem to think you can discern what people are really getting at, and you respond to that instead.

I mean really, go back over your statements and try to match them to what people have actually said.

Smug presumptuous fucker would be more accurate.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Does it? A Latino cop would never tolerate, or even support, white on black racism?

He might or he might not. The same could be asked of an african american police officer. The point is that posting or implying the same lazy two word argument "blue wall" in every controversial police vs. minority related subject makes for poor discussion.

[Terralthra]

In case anyone wondered what the fringe Conservative/Republican bloggers are passing around:

MR PRESIDENT YOU ARE A RACIST AND FIRED ONE OF YOUR SECURITY DETAIL AGENTS FOR MENTIONING THIS ALSO HAPPENS WITHIN YOUR FAMILY
By Kelly Anderson Wright

Yes, I said it: Obama is a racist. As the white, conservative mother of black/Mexican/white children, I know a racist when I hear one. So is his buddy, Henry Louis Gates. Don't let these two Ivy League-educated, erudite, distinguished black men convince you that only whites can be racists. Believe me, these two men are the worst kind of racists: black and elitist.


According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a racist is someone who believes "all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups." When Sgt. Crowley investigated a possible burglary at Prof. Gates' Cambridge home this week, Gates met a white cop at his door and evidently assumed Crowley was a bad cop, a rogue, a racist cop who would treat him differently than any other suspected perp, just because he was black.

That's racism, folks! What did Gates do when faced with a police officer investigating a burglary in his home? Was Gates polite and courteous to the cop? Did he cooperate and step onto the porch out of the darkened home so Crowley could see his face and ID? Did he calmly explain why a passerby saw him breaking in, if, in fact, it was his own house? Did he speak or act like the esteemed scholar and professor his ID claimed him to be?


Nope. He was belligerent, accusatory, uncooperative, irrational and defamatory, throwing racial slurs at the white officer, even insulting the cop's mother (as in, "Yo momma is so..."). If ever a man did NOT act with Harvard professorial dignity and decorum, if ever a black man acted like a thug from the ‘hood, Gates did. Is it any wonder Officer Crowley asked for more ID, one that actually listed that house as his address, or asked for another person to corroborate Gates' identity? I would, wouldn't you?


And when Gates refused, and became so incensed and insulting to the Sergeant who was there to protect his property that a crowd grew around his house, was Crowley supposed to allow this kind of behavior, just because Gates was black? No. He arrested Gates for disorderly conduct, as he was trained to do. Last time I checked, police arrest people regardless of race when they act like crazy people in the presence of peace officers.


So why is President Obama a racist?

Because he, like his friend Gates, automatically assumed the white police officer "acted stupidly." BO assumed it was the white officer's fault, because, of course, we all know white cops are racist, right? And later, when he slightly retracted his statement, he still felt the need to say, "It would have been better if cooler heads had prevailed." By now he knew the facts, that his friend Gates had lost his mind and acted like a fool, but he assumed that Sgt. Crowley similarly lost it and "got all up" in Gates' face, because, of course, that's what all white cops do.


But this white cop didn't, because he's not just any cop, he is an expert at managing racial incidents just like this one became, because of Gates' racism.

Friends and fellow officers of all races say Sgt. James Crowley is calm and reliable in situations racially hostile situs, because he was hand-picked by a black police commissioner to teach recruits how to avoid racial profiling, and Crowley has apparently been doing a stellar job at it for 5 years.


But Gates and our esteemed president didn't know that, did they?


So, who are the racists in this story? Gates accused a decent, decorated, above-reproach police officer of being a racist rogue cop, just because he was white. What did our esteemed "black" president do? He immediately took Gates' side, because he's a friend and black! Um, Mr. President, I thought you were going to help erase the racial lines that divide us?

Shame on you for taking sides on something you admitted you knew nothing about, for commenting nationally on a small, local issue well beneath your pay grade, and for showing us all that you are not that different that the racist Gates who believes all white cops are bad cops, just because of their skin color.


Mr. President, you are a racist. Shame on you.

=======================================

And you were doubly upset it was your philosophical Marxist soulmate whom you thought was "dissed" whereas it was your man who did the "dissing".

Shame on America for voting for you!

And your racism does not end here. Your disdain or racism toward Jews leads you to try to replace the long standing American ties with the Jewish community and Israel with a Moslem one by appointing fervent Moslems into top positions of policy power in your Admnistration..

You forcefully meddle in Israeli sovereign rights, telling them they cannot build homes on Jewish territory, are outraged and threaten the Hondurans for ejecting a Communist drug connected President while REFUSING to meddle in Islamic Iranian brutal repression of freedom fighters, who have been killed in droves and thrown into food freezers to hide the bodies.

The mass executions of political prisoners in the infamous Evin prison as evidenced in the photo below leaves you unmoved and not ready to confront the bloodthirsty Mullahs who took so much trouble and offered you so much financing and treasure to elect you - AND IN SOME OPINIONS HAVE SOMETHING IN THEIR HANDS WITH WHICH TO BLACKMAIL YOU.


This is yet another reason for you to produce your birth and other requested documents to show you have no vulnerability opening you up to blackmail by enemies of the USA - even if they do not strike you as being your enemies. Or you even consider them your friends anyway.

The only Lincolnian aspect that applies to you is that you can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time BUT not all of the people all of the time. And your time of fooling us appears to be reaching an end.

[Kamakazie Sith]

In case anyone wondered what the fringe Conservative/Republican bloggers are passing around:
<snip article>

This is more of that smugness that others have talked about. This isn't racism, but is the result of being a victim of racism either directly or indirectly. I think that's an important distinction that should be made. However, it is something that also needs to be corrected.