CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

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CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by Surlethe »

WSJ
The Commodity Futures Trading Commission plans to issue a report next month suggesting speculators played a significant role in driving wild swings in oil prices -- a reversal of an earlier CFTC position that augurs intensifying scrutiny on investors.

In a contentious report last year, the main U.S. futures-market regulator pinned oil-price swings primarily on supply and demand. But that analysis was based on "deeply flawed data," Bart Chilton, one of four CFTC commissioners, said in an interview Monday.

The CFTC's new review, due to be released in August, adds fuel to a growing debate over financial investors who bet on the direction of commodities prices by buying contracts tied to indexes. These speculators have invested hundreds of billions of dollars in contracts that were once dominated by producers and consumers who sought to hedge against oil-market volatility.

The review also reflects shifting political winds. Under Chairman Gary Gensler, appointed by President Barack Obama, the CFTC is departing from the more hands-off approach it took under its previous head, a George W. Bush appointee. The agency is widely expected to adopt new rules to limit the amount of investments in commodities by big institutions betting on their direction purely for financial gain.

The agency didn't make available preliminary figures from the report and declined to discuss the previous data.

Speculators have been a lightning rod of criticism from politicians world-wide, who worry that rising oil prices could damp the recovery potential of their recession-hit economies. Many lawmakers and regulators say they want to ensure that speculators don't make it more costly for consumers to access heating oil, food and other essentials.

These decision makers don't present a united front. The U.K.'s Financial Services Authority has found no evidence that speculators are behind big oil-price swings, people familiar with the matter said Friday. This view, made by the overseer of one of the world's biggest financial markets, contrasts with an opinion piece published in The Wall Street Journal two weeks ago, by French President Nicolas Sarkozy and U.K. Prime Minister Gordon Brown, who said governments need to act to curb "dangerously volatile" oil prices.

In the U.S., the CFTC begins public hearings Tuesday to determine whether to limit speculative investments in commodities. Congress also is weighing whether to give the CFTC the authority, under a broader proposal to revamp financial regulation, to regulate commodities investments that occur off traditional exchanges. Byron Dorgan, a North Dakota Democrat, has called on the CFTC to curb "oil speculators looking for a quick buck at the expense of American consumers."

The debate over speculators underscores the shifting nature of commodities trading in recent years. Before the mid-1990s, these markets were dominated by entities that had physical dealings with the underlying commodity, and "speculators" who often took the opposite position, providing liquidity to markets.

But a new group of investors has emerged in recent years. Those who want to bet on commodities prices have increasingly put their money in indexes that track the value of futures contracts, in which investors promise to pay a certain amount in the future for oil and other commodities. As of July 2008, financial investors had about $300 billion riding on these indexes, roughly four times the level in January 2006, according to the International Energy Agency, a Paris-based watchdog.

Separately, these investors may buy derivatives, not directly traded on futures exchanges, that let them make contrary bets to offset their risks.

Crude-oil prices surged in July 2008 to a record $145 a barrel, then dropped to about $33 in December. Oil now trades at around $68 a barrel.

Proponents of index speculation say these parties have added liquidity to markets. They blame price gyrations on supply and demand and say attempts to regulate speculation are foolhardy and could drive investors to less-regulated venues.

CME Group, the world's largest commodities exchange, said in a statement that it hasn't seen "any empirical evidence that index funds and speculators distort prices, as has been widely alleged."

The exchange's chief executive, Craig Donohue, said: "We are deeply concerned that inappropriate regulation of these markets will cause market participants to move to dark pools and other unregulated markets, causing irrevocable harm to the entire U.S. economy." Dark pools are private markets where large orders are transacted.

Last year, CFTC Chief Economist Jeffrey Harris told a House Agriculture subcommittee: "The economic data shows that overall commodity price levels, including agriculture commodity and energy futures prices, are being driven by powerful fundamental economic forces and the laws of supply and demand." Mr. Harris didn't return a call to comment.

The acting CFTC chairman at the time, Bush-appointee Walter Lukken, told the House Agriculture committee that CFTC's economists "did not find direct evidence that speculation was driving up prices." Mr. Lukken, now an executive at the New York Stock Exchange, declined to comment.

In preparing its 2008 report, the CFTC sought information from swaps dealers about their off-exchange derivatives transactions. CFTC commissioner Mr. Chilton -- who was appointed by Mr. Bush and now awaits confirmation of his reappointment under Mr. Obama -- said the data the agency gathered was incomplete, with some players providing partial or no information.

Mr. Chilton dissented from the 2008 CFTC report, saying the agency's conclusions didn't go far enough. He expressed doubt about the amount and type of data received, which he called limited and unreliable. "We didn't have all the information we should have," he said. "And we gave it to Congress anyway, and we spun it."

The agency began shifting under Mr. Gensler, its new chairman. During his confirmation process earlier this year, Mr. Gensler said he believed speculation was partly behind the surge in commodity prices.

Mr. Chilton said the new report will contain a more-thorough analysis of the investors in contracts tied to oil and other commodities, and reveal cases in which single traders hold massive market positions. "We now have multiple sources, and confidence from different sources," he says. He said he believes the data on trading outside exchanges is also more reliable.

Meantime, the U.K.'s FSA has been examining whether speculation has driven big oil price swings in recent months. The FSA is leaning toward the conclusion that the moves have more to do with uncertainty over the direction of economic growth than speculation, according to the people familiar with the matter.

The FSA has no jurisdiction over U.S. markets. But it oversees ICE Futures Europe, one of the largest global energy exchanges, which is based in London.

The FSA doesn't believe that limiting the size of trading positions would be "beneficial" for the market. Still, it concedes it doesn't have a "full explanation" as to why it the market has moved as it has.
Okay, J. We know it's your fault. You can just admit it now.

More seriously, why are speculators allowed to invest in futures markets in the first place? Speculation defeats the whole purpose of futures trading by amplifying market volatility, not to mention the very real consequences of that market volatility: for example, speculation in grain futures can literally cause starvation.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by Darth Wong »

What do you mean "More seriously"? People like J did cause the oil price spike, and they are responsible for much of the commodities chaos of the past year. The irony is that she kept lecturing the rest of us about it even though she was helping to cause it. It would be like AIG executives lecturing people about financial responsibility. Frankly, half of what she posts about finance and the economy comes off as self-serving horseshit, which is why I started getting pissed off with her "look at me I'm making money in the oil market" bragging last year.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by Vympel »

There is a silver lining to the huge oil volatility last year, though - it really made people conscious about fuel efficient cars and pretty much killed (hopefully as permanently as possible) the slaes of Fuck The Earth vehicles that were such an American mainstay, as well as energy efficiency, Peak Oil etc generally.

I really had no idea what the oil price spike was caused by last year, I assumed it would continue steadily going up (with minor decreases) because I thought it was a supply / demand problem. Instead they went from a high of $147 per barrel last year to what, $66 as of right now?
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I read something about this a few months back. Some economists are calling last summer 'Peak Oil Price', because all the speculation drove prices so high that it kicked fuel-efficiency initiatives into gear, and actually made people start conserving gas. Consequently (so they say) oil prices won't get that high again for a very long time, if ever.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by Gerald Tarrant »

Surlethe wrote:More seriously, why are speculators allowed to invest in futures markets in the first place? Speculation defeats the whole purpose of futures trading by amplifying market volatility, not to mention the very real consequences of that market volatility: for example, speculation in grain futures can literally cause starvation.
There are a couple parts to the principle justifications that I've heard (they look pretty weak or completely wrong now).

The first is that if there's a market that's just restricted to folks in the industry in question (whether farm products or oil); then the price isn't going to be as aggressively bid over as it would be if there were other buyers and sellers in the futures market. So a market with more players will supposedly have prices that are ruthlessly squeezed towards a presumably correct futures price. The emphasis on prices is important, as inflated or depressed prices have an impact on decisions of producers. If the average futures contract price has a significant amount of "fat" in the price than producers may overproduce, conversely a depressed futures price might cause supply problems. The thinking is that more market participants will "squeeze some of the fat" out of the contracts. (I took an actuarial math class a while back, and my textbook contains various trading strategies for making money off of contracts that are above or below the theoretical "right" price).

The second part of the argument is the Efficient market hypothesis (I'm using Wiki since it has a decent bibliography on the subject, as well as a good collection of the counter arguments). This essentially posits that if everyone's got access to the same info, markets are going to reach some "correct" futures price.

Taking these theories in conjunction we get: Markets set correct prices, and more people in the market will make the price less "sticky". From your article
The debate over speculators underscores the shifting nature of commodities trading in recent years. Before the mid-1990s, these markets were dominated by entities that had physical dealings with the underlying commodity, and "speculators" who often took the opposite position, providing liquidity to markets.
Of course one of the big glaring problems here is that there's nothing that prevents positive feedback. There are mechanisms that punish bad decisions (losing money, going bankrupt, etc) but that's not synonomous with preventing self-reinforcing bidding. As a matter of fact, if someone's lucky, or smart enough to hop off at the right time, than the bad decision to overbid in the first place can be rewarded. Which leads to bubbles, often speculative markets look less like EMH rational actors, and more like lemmings (with predictable results).
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by PeZook »

Funny, gas prices here are just as high as they were last summer.

Though for a long time I was actually hoping for just that: A HUGE price increase caused by factors other than dwindling supply, which would force people into conserving fuel and spark the race for new technologies.

This way, humanity wakes up early. In a way...we should thank the speculators, as twisted as it sounds :D
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

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CaptainChewbacca wrote:I read something about this a few months back. Some economists are calling last summer 'Peak Oil Price', because all the speculation drove prices so high that it kicked fuel-efficiency initiatives into gear, and actually made people start conserving gas. Consequently (so they say) oil prices won't get that high again for a very long time, if ever.
Supply problems will crop up again someday: the growth path we're on still relies heavily on oil. When they do, prices will spike again and we'll shift to a new growth path that is less reliant on oil, as we did last summer. It will continue until oil supplies are no longer a problem at all.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

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There's actually several parts to the dramatic rise in oil prices last year. There was a supply shortage going going into the driving season where oil consumption hits a peak, spare production capacity was very tight and inventories were falling in the spring instead of holding steady or building up as usual. Looking strictly from a supply & demand standpoint, an increase in prices is to be expected, but what made it so dramatic was the following two factors.

Starting soon after the Bear Stearns bankruptcy in March of last year, the US Fed & Treasury started various liquidity programs and bailouts for the banks, the banks in their effort to stay solvent & book profits to offset their losses dumped a bunch of this money in various speculative plays including oil futures, which of course drove the prices up.

The final piece of the puzzle lies with the commercial investors, that is oil refiners, oil companies, airlines, and other end customers of the oil and its products. These investors went short on their contracts, meaning they were expecting the price of oil to fall. They borrowed the contracts and sold them in hopes that a future price pullback would allow them to buy the contracts back at a lower price to cover the short. Unfortunately this didn't work, the supply shortage combined with speculation by banks using free government money drove prices higher, forcing commercial investors to cover their shorts by buying back the contracts so there's more buying which drives the prices up even further and starts another round of speculation, margin calls and short covering.

Put all of it together and that's what made prices really fly last year, and also why the collapse after the peak was so fast. As the buying frenzy took off, all the speculators were going long on their contracts thinking that the price would go up forever. Once the upward trend ran out of momentum it was the longs who were squeezed and forced to sell their contracts or face margin calls, and as they sell the price falls some more which sets off another round of forced liquidations, and the collapse continued all the way down to $30 & change. And from there we're repeating the first cycle again though not nearly on the same scale this time, the imbalance between short & long positions isn't as large so the squeeze potential isn't as bad, plus supply isn't nearly as tight as last year thanks to the economic meltdown. The government is of course still in the business of giving free money to investment banks for speculative use.


Addressing some of the things in the article.
The review also reflects shifting political winds. Under Chairman Gary Gensler, appointed by President Barack Obama, the CFTC is departing from the more hands-off approach it took under its previous head, a George W. Bush appointee. The agency is widely expected to adopt new rules to limit the amount of investments in commodities by big institutions betting on their direction purely for financial gain.
The various mercantile exchanges where commodities are traded already have position limits on their contracts, for instance oil which is traded on NYMEX has a limit of 20,000 contracts held by any one party. This doesn't work since investors just setup a dummy corporation to get around it, so any new regulations will need to find a way to stop this cheating.
But a new group of investors has emerged in recent years. Those who want to bet on commodities prices have increasingly put their money in indexes that track the value of futures contracts, in which investors promise to pay a certain amount in the future for oil and other commodities. As of July 2008, financial investors had about $300 billion riding on these indexes, roughly four times the level in January 2006, according to the International Energy Agency, a Paris-based watchdog.
If these index funds are as big a problem as claimed in driving up the price of oil, it should show up as a much larger proportion of long non-commercial (investment banks, speculators) futures contracts in the CFTC commitments of traders tables. This is a table from January 2006 (scroll down to CRUDE OIL, LIGHT SWEET - NEW YORK MERCANTILE EXCHANGE), here's one from July 2008. The percentage of long non-commercial contracts is nearly the same.

My opinion is speculators are partly to blame, but it's not the index funds & derivatives swaps dealers hedging their positions, or even people such as myself. It's the large banks playing with free government money. They're the ones leasing oil tankers to store oil and keep it off the market so they can work their speculative plays.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

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J wrote:My opinion is speculators are partly to blame, but it's not the index funds & derivatives swaps dealers hedging their positions, or even people such as myself. It's the large banks playing with free government money. They're the ones leasing oil tankers to store oil and keep it off the market so they can work their speculative plays.
I'm curious about something - exactly what is your opinion worth? Do you have an economics degree? Do you work in a financial field, analyzing macro-economic trends? You speak as though you are an economic expert, so I'm curious why we should value your opinion over that of the folks writing the article.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

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SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'm curious about something - exactly what is your opinion worth? Do you have an economics degree? Do you work in a financial field, analyzing macro-economic trends? You speak as though you are an economic expert, so I'm curious why we should value your opinion over that of the folks writing the article.
Actually I do. I work for DFAIT, where my job is economics & trade analysis (focusing on the US & China) for the purpose of helping to formulate trade policies for Canada.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by Aaron »

J wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'm curious about something - exactly what is your opinion worth? Do you have an economics degree? Do you work in a financial field, analyzing macro-economic trends? You speak as though you are an economic expert, so I'm curious why we should value your opinion over that of the folks writing the article.
Actually I do. I work for DFAIT, where my job is economics & trade analysis (focusing on the US & China) for the purpose of helping to formulate trade policies for Canada.
Didn't you say in this thread:

I don't have one, unless I count the intro course I had to take as part of my course distribution in university. It's all self-taught plus on the job training since I've been working with foreign trade & economics a lot for the last little while.
You'll have to excuse me if that does not fill me with confidence. If someone on the board claimed this in relation to a hard science field or the military they would be laughed off the board.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

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Cpl Kendall wrote:Didn't you say in this thread:
I don't have one, unless I count the intro course I had to take as part of my course distribution in university. It's all self-taught plus on the job training since I've been working with foreign trade & economics a lot for the last little while.
You'll have to excuse me if that does not fill me with confidence. If someone on the board claimed this in relation to a hard science field or the military they would be laughed off the board.
Luckily for J, economics is more voodoo than science anyway. So she can confidently say something that turns out to be total bullshit and then backtrack and point out that highly respectable economists routinely do the same.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

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That's why I hate economics. Its got numbers and crap, and seems like it SHOULD be a science, but its driven largely by emotions and human frailty, which are a pain in the ass. Dismal Science indeed.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

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CaptainChewbacca wrote:That's why I hate economics. Its got numbers and crap, and seems like it SHOULD be a science, but its driven largely by emotions and human frailty, which are a pain in the ass. Dismal Science indeed.
Worse yet, the numbers are all basically meta-numbers, meaning that they are computed based on more voodoo. Companies report their own figures and those figures are then reported widely as trusted data even if the same companies have been caught cooking their books in the past. Governments report projections and outcomes interchangeably. There is no independent verification of anything. Nobody ever dares to consider any event a test of his pet economic theory, because it might fail. Luckily, economic theories are immune to refutation.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Darth Wong wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:That's why I hate economics. Its got numbers and crap, and seems like it SHOULD be a science, but its driven largely by emotions and human frailty, which are a pain in the ass. Dismal Science indeed.
Worse yet, the numbers are all basically meta-numbers, meaning that they are computed based on more voodoo. Companies report their own figures and those figures are then reported widely as trusted data even if the same companies have been caught cooking their books in the past. Governments report projections and outcomes interchangeably. There is no independent verification of anything. Nobody ever dares to consider any event a test of his pet economic theory, because it might fail. Luckily, economic theories are immune to refutation.
The annoying thing is, I can't think of a better system without laws requiring unquestionable honesty in the face of crushingly huge fines and penalties for anyone caught falsifying the data. When it comes to wealth and money, people are greedier bastards than any 'greedy' race science fiction ever came up with.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by J »

Darth Wong wrote:Luckily for J, economics is more voodoo than science anyway.
No doubt it is, sad part is all the models used by our governments are well, completely full of it. Even worse the economists who actually try to make models & theories which work & relate to the real world are marginalized and pushed to the fringes.
So she can confidently say something that turns out to be total bullshit and then backtrack and point out that highly respectable economists routinely do the same.
But I don't. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, in fact I have posted admissions of earlier mistakes along with the reason for why I missed the ball. Sometimes it's because I missed something (in the case of oil, what the investment banks were doing with government bailout money, plus the short/long positions of traders), other times it's something unforeseeable (the government using AIG to funnel a couple hundred billion to the big banks so they don't go under) and once in a great while I'm just plain wrong.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

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CaptainChewbacca wrote:The annoying thing is, I can't think of a better system without laws requiring unquestionable honesty in the face of crushingly huge fines and penalties for anyone caught falsifying the data. When it comes to wealth and money, people are greedier bastards than any 'greedy' race science fiction ever came up with.
I can't say I disagree here, given the fun that's been occurring on Wall Street for the past couple years. Make the penalties for book-cooking and dodging the rules so painful and terrifying that no company (no matter how powerful or moneyed) would dare risk it.

Perhaps something like "If you get caught trying to falsify records, no matter how insignificant, we're going to assume your entire accounting department is incompetent and intellectually bankrupt. Without a functional accounting department you can't run as a business, so the government will now sieze your company, chop it up, and sell it at below-market value to all of your competitors. Finally, none of your employees (even the janitors) may work in the same commercial field as your company for at least ten years, under penalty of immediately going to prison for accounting fraud."
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by Straha »

Surlethe wrote: More seriously, why are speculators allowed to invest in futures markets in the first place? Speculation defeats the whole purpose of futures trading by amplifying market volatility, not to mention the very real consequences of that market volatility: for example, speculation in grain futures can literally cause starvation.
Because there's no difference between futures trading and speculation. The latter is a perjorative term for the former.

And the reason why it's allowed is because it can often forestall starvation and (as long as it's at least lightly regulated) it can help ease market volatility.

What happened here was two-fold: Futures traders were allowed first access to Oil and the flow of information about Oil sales was restricted. So Goldman Sachs a future's trader could buy a barrel of oil for $55, sell it to himself another trader for $60, sell it to yet another trader for $75, and then pass it off to a fourth one for $80 and to the outside world it looked like four different barrels of oil had been sold with the last one going for $80. This used to be covered by regulations, but the last of them (read: the ones that were necessary) flew out the door in the Clinton years leading, in part, to this catastrophe.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by Tiriol »

rhoenix wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:The annoying thing is, I can't think of a better system without laws requiring unquestionable honesty in the face of crushingly huge fines and penalties for anyone caught falsifying the data. When it comes to wealth and money, people are greedier bastards than any 'greedy' race science fiction ever came up with.
I can't say I disagree here, given the fun that's been occurring on Wall Street for the past couple years. Make the penalties for book-cooking and dodging the rules so painful and terrifying that no company (no matter how powerful or moneyed) would dare risk it.

Perhaps something like "If you get caught trying to falsify records, no matter how insignificant, we're going to assume your entire accounting department is incompetent and intellectually bankrupt. Without a functional accounting department you can't run as a business, so the government will now sieze your company, chop it up, and sell it at below-market value to all of your competitors. Finally, none of your employees (even the janitors) may work in the same commercial field as your company for at least ten years, under penalty of immediately going to prison for accounting fraud."
The last bit sounds a bit harsh, even though I understand that you gave it just to illustrate a point. And that example wouldn't necessarily stop accounting crimes or frauds at all: it would probably speed up the creation of several satellite companies and it also means that no one is going to work in any accounting department. Why? Because if even one of them falsifies records, everyone will suffer and get branded as incompetent and likely to commit a fraud, a practical career death sentence in a working work market (not the one that keeps giving jobs to CEOs and other occupying the top) in every way.

But white collar crime should be prosecuted more vehemently and the legislation governing it should be tightened. However, the likelihood is near zero unless something truly earth-shaking happens that forces the average Joe to realize how bad everything truly is. While it may SEEM that this has already happened, it has not: media has screamed at the top of its lungs about economical crisis and yet the average person as an abstract, as a measure of the masses, hasn't suffered. Yes, there are countless tales of people having their lives ruined and their children's future as well, but it still hasn't struck the society as the Great Depression did. When you can no longer deflect the economical hardships with simple anecdotes "I still got my job and my friends, too, things aren't that bad" in the common daily speech, THEN something may happen. Not sooner.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by Rawtooth »

Darth Wong wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:That's why I hate economics. Its got numbers and crap, and seems like it SHOULD be a science, but its driven largely by emotions and human frailty, which are a pain in the ass. Dismal Science indeed.
Worse yet, the numbers are all basically meta-numbers, meaning that they are computed based on more voodoo. Companies report their own figures and those figures are then reported widely as trusted data even if the same companies have been caught cooking their books in the past. Governments report projections and outcomes interchangeably. There is no independent verification of anything. Nobody ever dares to consider any event a test of his pet economic theory, because it might fail. Luckily, economic theories are immune to refutation.
Speaking as an economics degree seeking senior, I can say that thankfully things appear to be changing. When I started my professors would spout off crap left and right with fancy graphs but very little statistics or studies to back them up. In the most recent classes I have taken, there has been a strong push towards the developing field of actually backing up your statements with economics experiments which closely resemble psychology experiments. I doubt this fills the hard-science members of the board with much glee, as psychology is a soft science but in my opinion it's far better than what was going on before.

I know it is all personal ancedotes so it means very little, but it's refreshing to see ones professor's skeptical and dubious of theories they once pushed without critical thought.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by rhoenix »

Tiriol wrote:The last bit sounds a bit harsh, even though I understand that you gave it just to illustrate a point. And that example wouldn't necessarily stop accounting crimes or frauds at all: it would probably speed up the creation of several satellite companies and it also means that no one is going to work in any accounting department. Why? Because if even one of them falsifies records, everyone will suffer and get branded as incompetent and likely to commit a fraud, a practical career death sentence in a working work market (not the one that keeps giving jobs to CEOs and other occupying the top) in every way.
You are entirely correct in your assessment of my example, though I admit half of its harshness came as a result of my frustration with the situation. I will certainly concede that this probably won't change unless America gets a better-informed (and better educated) general populace.
Tiriol wrote:But white collar crime should be prosecuted more vehemently and the legislation governing it should be tightened. However, the likelihood is near zero unless something truly earth-shaking happens that forces the average Joe to realize how bad everything truly is. While it may SEEM that this has already happened, it has not: media has screamed at the top of its lungs about economical crisis and yet the average person as an abstract, as a measure of the masses, hasn't suffered. Yes, there are countless tales of people having their lives ruined and their children's future as well, but it still hasn't struck the society as the Great Depression did. When you can no longer deflect the economical hardships with simple anecdotes "I still got my job and my friends, too, things aren't that bad" in the common daily speech, THEN something may happen. Not sooner.
Agreed, grudgingly. People here seem to be great at rationalizing away or ignoring catastrophies in favor of getting upset about trivialities, and unfortunately, I don't see this changing anytime soon.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by J »

Darth Wong wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:That's why I hate economics. Its got numbers and crap, and seems like it SHOULD be a science, but its driven largely by emotions and human frailty, which are a pain in the ass. Dismal Science indeed.
Worse yet, the numbers are all basically meta-numbers, meaning that they are computed based on more voodoo. Companies report their own figures and those figures are then reported widely as trusted data even if the same companies have been caught cooking their books in the past. Governments report projections and outcomes interchangeably. There is no independent verification of anything. Nobody ever dares to consider any event a test of his pet economic theory, because it might fail. Luckily, economic theories are immune to refutation.
And this is why I have a job, I get to sort through all the propaganda and see if the numbers add up, when they don't, which is often, I have to do some real digging and find out why that is and what the real numbers should be.

For instance, let's take China, they're claiming their usual 8% GDP growth again this year even though they're an export based economy and the rest of the world isn't buying at the moment. Doesn't make sense does it? Part of it is the way China counts GDP, as soon as a doo-hickey is produced in China it's counted towards the GDP, whereas over here it's not counted until it's sold. They'll continue producing away to keep the GDP number up as inventory builds to absurd levels, which is exactly what's happening as the docks & warehouses over there are stuffed to the gills with unsold goods.

The rest is just outright lying. Around 50% of China's GDP is in manufacturing, and nearly 80% of that is export manufacturing. Manufacturing also accounts for IIRC, 70% of China's energy consumption, and that is the key. Their energy usage is way down, coal imports are down ~10% and oil is down as well. Rail & shipping volume is down too. This means manufacturing is contracting, so unless they've found a magical way to goose the rest of the economy by over 10% (they haven't, everything except government spending is flat or down, and the government hasn't spent nearly enough) there's no way their claimed growth number of 8% is real.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by ArmorPierce »

Surlethe wrote:Okay, J. We know it's your fault. You can just admit it now.

More seriously, why are speculators allowed to invest in futures markets in the first place? Speculation defeats the whole purpose of futures trading by amplifying market volatility, not to mention the very real consequences of that market volatility: for example, speculation in grain futures can literally cause starvation.
Obviously it was speculation. Oil demand didn't increase by 5 fold randomly over a course of months. Belief that the price will go up in the future causes price to go up today.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

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CaptainChewbacca wrote:That's why I hate economics. Its got numbers and crap, and seems like it SHOULD be a science, but its driven largely by emotions and human frailty, which are a pain in the ass. Dismal Science indeed.
Personally I think most economics past the high school level is basically brainwashing and indoctrination, in university they teach you a bunch of theories and crap that work about as well as communism, and insist that you do all your analysis using those theories even when there's absolutely no relation between the theories and the real world. The smart students realize that it's all a bunch of bullshit, the rest of them end up like Jim Cramer.
ArmorPierce wrote:Obviously it was speculation. Oil demand didn't increase by 5 fold randomly over a course of months. Belief that the price will go up in the future causes price to go up today.
Did you guys cover price elasticity in high school economics? If you did, you'd know that prices do not move on a linear 1:1 ratio with demand.
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Re: CFTC: Oil spike WAS driven by speculation, after all

Post by Simon_Jester »

ArmorPierce wrote:Obviously it was speculation. Oil demand didn't increase by 5 fold randomly over a course of months. Belief that the price will go up in the future causes price to go up today.
Question: is it possible for a small increase in demand to lead to a large increase in price?

Imagine a situation where oil production and demand are high, with only a very small amount of reserve production capacity left over. Say, 99 million barrels of oil are bought daily, with one million barrels/day of reserve.

Suddenly, demand spikes by a few percent, overwhelming the reserve. Now there are buyers for 101 barrels of oil per 100 barrels actually being sold. What happens?

I suspect that the answer is a bidding war over the oil that only ends when the buyers of at least one million of those 101 million are priced out of the market. Most people will absorb a small rise in the price of oil without going out of business immediately, so the bidding war won't stop until the price is so high that there are people whose budget requires that they must cut back consumption, or go out of business and stop consuming altogether. In which case the price could go up very quickly, even without the speculators making matters worse by betting on the sidelines.

Price doesn't necessarily scale linearly with demand.
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