The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[tim31]

I wonder if the Russkies have equivalent to these systems.

Tell 'em, Disco Stu!

[Simon_Jester]

That's not just an anti-angel weapon, that'd fry a regular human too, right?

I strongly suspect (but cannot prove) that that would fry tanks. It's wasted as a target designator because by the time the missile gets there the thing's already dead.
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Except that the dog had clearly been aged (or at least his health had deteriorated) after the fight with Uriel, so I doubt that [I, Simon_Jester, am right]

You have a point.

And besides, can you honestly look at this cute little puppy and tell me with a straight face that dogs don't have souls?

In this setting, having a soul is not necessarily a blessing. Do dogs have minds? For sufficiently broad values of "mind," I would say yes. Do dogs have souls for my definition of souls? I don't know, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised. Do dogs have souls for Stuart's definition of 'souls', as in 'the thing that allows you to get transferred into a bubble universe after death'? Not necessarily.

Remember, its been stated he's only been in command for three days and he has a specialist air warfare crew who handle his AAW systems... This story pushed what is public domain about the system as far as it can. It'll take him weeks to run up to speed on what his ship can do. So, its quite natural that a new captain would still be learning (and finding out a lot of what he believed about AEGIS was wrong or horribly outdated).

If I were running things, I would brief him on what the ship's weapons and sensors are capable of before giving him command of the ship. Maybe only a few days or weeks before, but still before and not after. I am not the US Navy, obviously, but I'm not sure why they would think it wise to keep a ship's capabilities secret from its captain up until the moment he takes command (at which point he might have to take the ship into action immediately, with even less prep time than he had here, because the Angel of Death could strike at any time).
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Firstly, SPY-1 is a software driven radar so it can pretty much be tuned to anything.

I'd guessed that capability; for the "set big flat metal plate to kill" application, you want the 2.5 GHz band.

At 70 - 80 miles, that beam is tiny. How small? Classified. But, using other fire control radars as an example, we're talking a beam that's probably a couple of centimeters across at most. Let's be really generous and assume its 5 cm across,

Ah-HA! This is where our math differed. I was picturing a far less tightly collimated beam, something that took (call it for the sake of argument) a 10 to 100 MW microwave beam and focused it into an area several hundred meters across (at the range in question). For detection applications, I doubt you'd want to cut the beam much narrower than that, because you don't know precisely where the target is, and because you don't want your target to be able to slip out of the beam, no matter what they try.

If we're looking at what is in effect a maser target designator, designed to provide a brilliant microwave dot such that even nearly microwave-blind sensors can home in on it, and said dot is on the order of a few centimeters across, you're talking about a flux on the order of gigawatts per square meter. That's not a microwave; that's a blowtorch. Or one of those CO2 lasers they use to cut steel plates.

Or it would be, if the size of the impact zone was significantly larger than the wavelength. I'm not sure how the physics works out in the case where the beam is narrower than a wavelength. At 2.5 GHz on an organic target, I'd guess that the effect would be more like riddling the target with shots from a Wells-style "heat ray" than what you describe, just because the beam is so narrow. You'd get narrow, deep zones of explosive vaporization (or shallow zones if the radar pulses are milliseconds long). You'd only get widespread surface 'cooking' if the beam was firing microsecond pulses and jumping them all over the target... which, for all I know, it might be.
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By the way, the appearance of Aurora is a sort of gift to the people who wanted the SR-71 back. That can't be done, there are no SR-71s that can be restored to service status. So I tossed Aurora in as a consolation prize.

Possibly with a Blackbird pilot; "Habu-zero-one" is a likely callsign from someone who graduated from Blackbirds to Auroras.

[Darth Yoshi]

Gotta agree with Shroomy here.

*takes breath* FUCK YEAH THAT WAS AWESOME!

As for the wrinkles, could Uriel have burst cells throughout her body? That would reduce elasticity and turgidity, I think. Of course, I don't know how well a human body can handle random cells bursting like that.

[Simon_Jester]

Note: that last update sounds even more awesome to "Mars," the music the cruiser captain puts on.

Once again, great work.

I wonder if angelic resilience is enough to regenerate Uriel. After all, he did lose an eye, which doesn't seem to be regrowable.

Even demons at least two "levels" weaker than Uriel can regrow wings that have been outright severed, which more or less proves that they can grow back destroyed nerves. And given that, I wouldn't be surprised to find them able to regenerate eyes.
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It would been nice to use the Aurora to do a few hypersonic flybys to knock Uriel around, but flying aircraft (no matter how fast) near a hostile target that you're shooting at isn't a very good idea.

Compared to the effects of all the other stuff out there, sonic booms, even from an Aurora, are small potatoes. And they're an indiscriminate weapon. Auroras (Aurorae?) won't be very maneuverable. High speed recon planes are designed to fly very fast in a straight line rather than in evasive loop-de-loops, depending on their superior speed and altitude to get them past air defenses. If an Aurora flies close enough to the ground for its sonic boom to affect a low-flying target, that same boom will devastate everything along its flight path for tens of miles.

Also, I suspect that like the Blackbird, the Aurora isn't nearly as fast at low altitude. The Blackbird flies so fast largely because of decreased air resistance. Even then, its skin heats up to temperatures of hundreds of degrees Celsius in flight. The Aurora flies higher at its top speed, but probably gets at least as hot, so I doubt the airframe could survive high-Mach supersonic flight close to the ground.

[Stuart]

Well, if all four turbines were running flat out, that's at least 100kW of energy to distribute between the ship's systems. Since it's probably an exaggeration to claim that all of it is going down the beam, and some would be lost to scattering or be absorbed by atmospheric water, let's be very conservative and call it 50kW of effective heating.

Your power generation figures are way off here. The LM-2500 gas turbine generates (ie delivers to the gearbox) 27,100 kW. All four engines deliver 108,400 kW. However, this isn't electricity, its used to drive the generators and the output of those generators is (guess what) classified. However, we do have the public domain figure that the max peak power output of an early model SPY-1 is 4,000 kW.

[Surlethe]

A steam plant will have an efficiency of something like 30%, so ~30,000 kW should be a good baseline. We're still looking at on the order of a billion watts per square meter in the pencil beam.

[Simon_Jester]

I wonder if anyone's ever looked at an all-electric AEGIS version, something like the DD-1000 series...

...or am I the only one who doesn't already know about them having done so?

[Stuart]

I wonder if anyone's ever looked at an all-electric AEGIS version, something like the DD-1000 series... ...or am I the only one who doesn't already know about them having done so?

AEGIS is all-electric. The full system is the SPY-1 radar plus the AEGIS battle management system. The whole lot is also called AEGIS as well which is terribly confusing. The battle management system has the main displays (four in a CG-47, three in a DDG-51, subsidiary displays, data processing computers (one of the evil thing about AEGIS is the operators don't use raw radar data, they use synthetic video prepared from such data) datalinks and communication equipment. That's all electronic.

What is different about DDG-1000 is that on a CG-47, the gas turbines run through gearboxes that drive the shafts and turn the screws. Some of the machinery power is diverted to run generators that power the electronics. It;s an either/or, either the gas turbines turn teh screws or generate electricity. In DDG=1000, the gas turbines are permanently hooked to the generators and only generate electricity. SOme of that electricity then powers electric motors that turn the screws, the rest goes to the ship.

[Stuart]

A steam plant will have an efficiency of something like 30%, so ~30,000 kW should be a good baseline. We're still looking at on the order of a billion watts per square meter in the pencil beam.

Yes, but these are gas turbines. The output of the LM-2500 turbines, that is power actually delivered to the gear box and generators, is around 27,100 kW. The thermal efficiency of an LM-2500 is around 37 percent

[Beowulf]

A steam plant will have an efficiency of something like 30%, so ~30,000 kW should be a good baseline. We're still looking at on the order of a billion watts per square meter in the pencil beam.

Yes, but these are gas turbines. The output of the LM-2500 turbines, that is power actually delivered to the gear box and generators, is around 27,100 kW. The thermal efficiency of an LM-2500 is around 37 percent

And regardless, it's all irrelevant. Well, except for the actual power output of the LM-2500. We can derive a maximum upper limit power output of 4 of them times the generator efficiency, which is around 95% IIRC. Thus, it's absolutely impossible for it to generate a beam of more than 102 MW. This is, of course, and absolutely absurd number, because among other things, the ship will quickly slow to a dead stop. A more realistic value would have only 2 of them powering the generators, and thus 51 MW. This, oddly enough, fits nicely into the quoted "order of magnitude more powerful than those on non-ABM ships and the battle management technology was upgraded to match", and listed 4 MW output for the early model SPY-1. At this point, we're probably going into finger breaking territory.

[GrayAnderson]

Completely jumping from recent discussions...

What is St. Peter in this universe? I know that he is, in most understandings, a deceased human who is serving the Almighty in Heaven...however, it's strongly implied that he was able to go tripping on LSD back in Armageddon. So what is St. Peter? Angel? Deceased human? Deceased human somehow transformed? Never was a human in the first place?

[Pelranius]

Completely jumping from recent discussions...

What is St. Peter in this universe? I know that he is, in most understandings, a deceased human who is serving the Almighty in Heaven...however, it's strongly implied that he was able to go tripping on LSD back in Armageddon. So what is St. Peter? Angel? Deceased human? Deceased human somehow transformed? Never was a human in the first place?

Saint Peter might be one of Jesus's cronies, assuming that Jesus has his one circle of friends, which seems fairly probable. Or he might be stuck on duty as some angel (or Jesus's) personal chorus. Has the Holy Ghost shown up?

[Darth Yoshi]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that all the Holy Ghost stuff was early Christians being stoned.

[Guardsman Bass]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that all the Holy Ghost stuff was early Christians being stoned.

That's certainly possible, although if you wanted to be charitable, it could be that the "Holy Ghost" was something like "the Devil" - an outside force other than the Baldricks and Angels.

[Darth Wong]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that all the Holy Ghost stuff was early Christians being stoned.

Or it could be like the real history, in which Christians clumsily tried to weld several disparate mythologies together (the entire Bible is composed of mismatched stories from various sources, jumbled together with no regard for continuity). The result was that they ended up manufacturing this Holy Trinity bullshit. In the context of the Pantheocide story, one might posit that some of these stories were inconsistent because they involved completely different alien entities.

[Gil Hamilton]

I heard a story from a guy in the Air Force. He told me that on the first day he arrived for training on a base, all the new people were lined up near something with an active radar system. In front of it was a stool with a watermelon placed on it. Once the person who placed the watermelon on the stool was completely clear, the recruits were instructed to watch the melon closely. The active radar was turned on. After a few seconds, the melon shook violently and then exploded. The recruits were then told that the same thing could easily happen to them.

This story could be entirely apocryphal or him pulling my leg, but I tend to believe him.

[erik_t]

Since when does a Tico ship a SPS-48?

[Stuart]

I heard a story from a guy in the Air Force. He told me that on the first day he arrived for training on a base, all the new people were lined up near something with an active radar system. In front of it was a stool with a watermelon placed on it. Once the person who placed the watermelon on the stool was completely clear, the recruits were instructed to watch the melon closely. The active radar was turned on. After a few seconds, the melon shook violently and then exploded. The recruits were then told that the same thing could easily happen to them. This story could be entirely apocryphal or him pulling my leg, but I tend to believe him.

I'd believe it as well. There's severe restrictions as to who can be outside the superstructure when the radars are operating at all let alone when they are on full power. It has to be said though that channeling all that power down a single beam is very rare (normally its split between a number of beams) and not good for the radar.

Since when does a Tico ship a SPS-48?

SPS-49.

[Baughn]

Well, if all four turbines were running flat out, that's at least 100kW of energy to distribute between the ship's systems. Since it's probably an exaggeration to claim that all of it is going down the beam, and some would be lost to scattering or be absorbed by atmospheric water, let's be very conservative and call it 50kW of effective heating.

Your power generation figures are way off here. The LM-2500 gas turbine generates (ie delivers to the gearbox) 27,100 kW. All four engines deliver 108,400 kW. However, this isn't electricity, its used to drive the generators and the output of those generators is (guess what) classified. However, we do have the public domain figure that the max peak power output of an early model SPY-1 is 4,000 kW.

Unless the generators can handle a great deal less than the turbine output, that's still 100MW; electrical generators are pretty close to 100% efficiency these days. Of course it might be impossible to hook all four turbines to the generators, but if it's three or even two, that's still pretty close to the 50MW figure I actually used. The characters in your story do explicitly mention that all the power is going to the radar; presumably it's just all the electrical power, but still; I wouldn't bet on 50MW being far off.

Modulo scattering/absorbtion, of course. What was the weather like that day?


On a totally different note.. folks, how do you think this story would work as a crossover with Silent Mobius?
When I compare the show and this story, they seem almost identical, albeit at slightly different power levels. It could work as a separate group of aliens.. assuming one doesn't mind the copyright infringement.

[layman]

Factoid for you, AEGIS/SPY-1 does not need dedicated target tracking radars, it has them but they are back-ups and load-distributers. AEGIS/SPY-1 is perfectly capable of generating target designation beams on its own.

Could you please clarify a bit on this? When you say that, do you mean that the semi-active seeker model SM-2s are able to home in on S-band transmissions of the SPY-1 as well as the X band ilumination beams of the SPG-62s, or do you mean that the SPY-1 is able to track the target precisely enough with the pencil beams and command the SM-2s with mid-course guidance updates such that an intercept is possible without terminal illumination via SPG-62s? Thanks.

[Simon_Jester]

What is different about DDG-1000 is that on a CG-47, the gas turbines run through gearboxes that drive the shafts and turn the screws. Some of the machinery power is diverted to run generators that power the electronics. It;s an either/or, either the gas turbines turn teh screws or generate electricity. In DDG=1000, the gas turbines are permanently hooked to the generators and only generate electricity. SOme of that electricity then powers electric motors that turn the screws, the rest goes to the ship.

Terminology disconnect. That is what I was talking about. As in: I wonder if anyone has thought about constructing a large AEGIS-equipped ship with the type of power distribution system found on the DDG-1000 design? Might this be a more efficient way to feed power to the radars, much as the DDG-1000 design is hoped to be a more efficient way to feed power to coilguns or tactical lasers?

[Lonestar]

Terminology disconnect. That is what I was talking about. As in: I wonder if anyone has thought about constructing a large AEGIS-equipped ship with the type of power distribution system found on the DDG-1000 design? Might this be a more efficient way to feed power to the radars, much as the DDG-1000 design is hoped to be a more efficient way to feed power to coilguns or tactical lasers?

People are trying to do something similar...I think

[Surlethe]

A steam plant will have an efficiency of something like 30%, so ~30,000 kW should be a good baseline. We're still looking at on the order of a billion watts per square meter in the pencil beam.

Yes, but these are gas turbines. The output of the LM-2500 turbines, that is power actually delivered to the gear box and generators, is around 27,100 kW. The thermal efficiency of an LM-2500 is around 37 percent

Ahh, I'd thought the system burned gas to heat steam to run turbines. This makes sense, so I'll defer to Beowulf's analysis.

[Vehrec]

It is conceivable that a bleaching/aging effect could be achieved by a massive release of free radicals that damages pigments and collagen, but that would have follow up effects equitable to acute radiation poisoning, wouldn't it? Come to think of it, any kind of exotic radiation that could cause that kind of damage might leave you with only days/hours to live. So I'll bet it's something very different.

[Simon_Jester]

I think the earlier speculation that Uriel's attack affects the same "life energy" that gives the dead in Hell (or Heaven) their extraordinary regenerative powers is good. Uriel might be reversing the process, causing unnaturally rapid degeneration of the body.

Pure, unadulterated speculation:
If Uriel is filling space with some kind of "life drain" field, then the effects might work from the outside in. Against a resisting target, they might work the outside and not get in, causing (literally) superficial degeneration of the skin and hair without penetrating to damage the brain or internal organs.