There are, of course, worse things than destroying archaelogical wonders. Nonetheless, this is disheartening and, it seems, another sign of the disregard for the supposed "Hearts and Minds" campaign that was to be waged concurrently with the war/occupation and the lack of planning that was put into the whole debacle.Babylon's wonder, lying in ruins
‘Nothing can make up for’ damage done by U.S. troops in Iraq, experts say
By Nada Bakri
The Washington Post
updated 4:55 a.m. CT, Wed., July 29, 2009
HILLA, Iraq - Maytham Hamzah cast his eyes toward the remains of King Nebuchadnezzar's guest palace in Babylon, one of the world's first great cities. He smiled, bitterly.
"They destroyed the whole country," Hamzah, the head of the Babylon museum, said of U.S. forces in Iraq. "So what are a few old bricks and mud walls in comparison?"
U.S. forces did not exactly destroy the 4,000-year-old city, home of one of the world's original seven wonders, the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. Even before the troops arrived, there was not much left: a mound of broken mud-brick buildings and archaeological fragments in a fertile plain between the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers.
But they did turn it into Camp Alpha, a military base, shortly after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003. Their 18-month stay there caused "major damage" and represented a "grave encroachment on this internationally known archeological site," a report released this month in Paris by the United Nations' cultural agency, UNESCO, says.
The ruins stretch over a rectangular area measuring 2,100 acres along the western banks of the Euphrates. The site consists of Nebuchadnezzar's palace, which then-President Saddam Hussein rebuilt in the 1980s; the remains of the Temple of Ninmakh; and a palace for royal guests. In addition, there is the Lion of Babylon, a 2,600-year-old sculpture, and the remains of the Ishtar Gate, the most beautiful of the eight gates that once ringed the perimeter of the town. It still bears the symbols of Babylonian gods.
According to the report, which comes after five years of investigation by a team of Iraqi and international experts, foreign troops and contractors bulldozed hilltops and then covered them with gravel to serve as parking lots for military vehicles and trailers. They drove heavy vehicles over the fragile paving of once-sacred pathways.
The report also says that forces built barriers and embankments to protect the base, pulverizing ancient pottery and bricks that were engraved with cuneiform characters. They dug trenches where they stored fuel tanks for their helicopters, which landed near an ancient theater. Among the structures that suffered the most damage, according to the report, were the Ishtar Gate and a processional thoroughfare. Experts also say troops filled their sandbags with soil from a site that was littered with archaeological fragments.
‘Nothing can make up for it’
Bricks were looted as well -- both those of Babylonian vintage and newer ones that Hussein used to rebuild parts of the ruins. The latter variety was emblazoned with an ode to himself.
"The damage was so great," said Maryam Mussa, an official from the Iraqi state board of heritage and antiquities, which is in charge of the site. "It would be so difficult to repair it, and nothing can make up for it."
Spokesmen for the U.S. military in Iraq did not respond to requests for comment. But the military has previously said that looting would have been far worse had it not been for the presence of its troops. The military also said in 2005 that it had discussed setting up the base with Iraqi archaeologists in charge of the site.
The site has been closed to the public since 2003. Facing mounting criticism from archaeologists in Iraq and around the world, troops vacated it in summer 2004. It was reopened this June, despite warnings from experts that the ruins might suffer further damage unless they were first restored and given proper protection.
Little left
Many residents of Hilla, a town 60 miles south of Baghdad that sits near the ruins, said they have not been to the site because they can't bear to see the damage.
"What ruins are you talking about?" said Jawad Kathem, a 55-year-old owner of a small grocery store in the village of Jumjumah, a few miles away. "There is nothing left of it. It was all destroyed and looted."
"They are occupying forces," said Sabah Hassan, a 41-year-old resident of Hilla who owns a cafe near the ruins. "Nobody can tell them what to do."
On a recent day, wind swept across the deserted ruin as Hamzah, the museum's head, gave a tour to visitors. He recited the history of ancient Babylon with the enthusiasm of someone who had been waiting for years to share his knowledge. The gates of the museum were locked.
"From this room, King Nebuchadnezzar ruled his kingdom," he said as he waved his hand across a spacious room where Nebuchadnezzar II is believed to have sat. The king turned Babylon into one of the wonders of the ancient world. Historians say he was prouder of his construction projects than he was of his many military victories.
Efforts will be ‘better than nothing’
Several efforts to restore Babylon have been announced in the past six years, but none has made progress. Now, with security in Iraq improving, officials hope to start work on a $700,000, two-year project funded by the U.S. State Department to restore the site. The United Nations is also trying to name the place a World Heritage site, a designation that would provide support and protection.
"Of course this is not enough, but it is better than nothing," lamented Mussa, the site director. "We had hoped that work would start this year."
On her desk were papers detailing the damage, gathering dust.
Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
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Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
As much as the destruction of such a site is a shame, in all honesty it sounds like it had more or less been defiled by Hussein as a vanity project. Replacing ancient Babylonian bricks with ones inscribed with an ode to himself?
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
Hussein may have defiled it, but at least most of it was still there. These guys bulldozed it and shoveled the remains into sandbags. It's almost as if they wanted to destroy everything of archaeological value.
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
When Rameses found a monument built by another Pharaoh, he would replace the inscribed name with his own. Hussein was many things, but he wasn't modest.
I think it's a shame what happened. Imagine if someone destroyed the Roman ruins, or what's left of the Parthenon. The ruins of Babylon may just be piles of stone to many, but they're symbols of a time when Iraq was great once, and for some, I'm sure they saw hope of future greatness. To destroy it is stupid and pointless.
"Oh thank you for destroying one of our oldest cultural sites. Allah be praised, now we have democracy!"
I think it's a shame what happened. Imagine if someone destroyed the Roman ruins, or what's left of the Parthenon. The ruins of Babylon may just be piles of stone to many, but they're symbols of a time when Iraq was great once, and for some, I'm sure they saw hope of future greatness. To destroy it is stupid and pointless.
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
True enough. I am curious as to what "Iraqi archaeologists" the article claims the U.S. Army consulted with. Were they actual archaeologists? Were they actually listened to? etc.Darth Wong wrote:Hussein may have defiled it, but at least most of it was still there. These guys bulldozed it and shoveled the remains into sandbags. It's almost as if they wanted to destroy everything of archaeological value.
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
That is an interesting example of values dissonance: today, we agree that Saddam Hussein should not have done that, but the ancient Babylonians who built the city in the first place would probably have expected such behavior from a ruler. Weird.Ziggy Stardust wrote:As much as the destruction of such a site is a shame, in all honesty it sounds like it had more or less been defiled by Hussein as a vanity project. Replacing ancient Babylonian bricks with ones inscribed with an ode to himself?
This does not excuse Hussein's behavior, let alone the behavior of the people who set up the military base there during the occupation. I'm confident that everyone, including the ancient Babylonians, would disagree with making a parking lot for Humvees out of the ruins.
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
Just because they expects such a thing to occur doesn't necessarily mean people in the past would like the idea of tearing down all those historical site.Simon_Jester wrote:That is an interesting example of values dissonance: today, we agree that Saddam Hussein should not have done that, but the ancient Babylonians who built the city in the first place would probably have expected such behavior from a ruler. Weird.Ziggy Stardust wrote:As much as the destruction of such a site is a shame, in all honesty it sounds like it had more or less been defiled by Hussein as a vanity project. Replacing ancient Babylonian bricks with ones inscribed with an ode to himself?
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
People in the past did not recognize the value of history at all, because they were busy living it. Our reverence for archaeological treasures is a recent invention.ray245 wrote:Just because they expects such a thing to occur doesn't necessarily mean people in the past would like the idea of tearing down all those historical site.
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
Yeah. I mean, Babylon was already many centuries old in the time of Nebuchadnezzar. Do you think he thought twice about tearing down old statues and removing ancient bricks to make room for monuments to the greater glory of himself?
Saddam Hussein would not have been at all out of place as an ancient Mesopotamian monarch. He wouldn't have been one of the better ones, but he wouldn't have been all that unusual.
Saddam Hussein would not have been at all out of place as an ancient Mesopotamian monarch. He wouldn't have been one of the better ones, but he wouldn't have been all that unusual.
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
From Global Security org:
32°32'21.63"N
44°24'57.07"E
Location of the base in Google Earth:When Navy Seabees attached to the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force (I MEF) advanced into the ancient biblical city of Babylon at the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF), they arrived to find the city's museum and its ruins looted and damaged. After Marines secured the city to protect it from further destruction, the Seabees built Camp Babylon around the ancient city in order to protect one of history's most important archaeological treasures. The individual talent of one Seabee led to the repair of one of the museum's most prized re-creations of ancient history; a scale model of the tower of Babel. The tower, according to biblical history, was built by Noah's descendants who intended it to reach up to heaven. God foiled them by confusing their language so they could no longer understand each other.
32°32'21.63"N
44°24'57.07"E
In September 2003 the base was passed to a Polish-led force, which held it until January 2005 when the site was handed over to the Iraqi culture ministry. In January 2005 Polish forces transferred control of Camp Babylon to the Iraqi Culture Ministry. Polish forces moved to a nearby area. Polish officials said that the moving out of Camp Babylon was as a result of security reasons and not because the base was allegedly damaging the ancient city.
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
That is not true. Even in Roman times preserving/restoring ancient sites (even if they were of no use anymore) was commonplace. Heck, in the fourth century we even find at least one christian bishop who restored pagan temples who were long in disuse.Darth Wong wrote:People in the past did not recognize the value of history at all, because they were busy living it. Our reverence for archaeological treasures is a recent invention.ray245 wrote:Just because they expects such a thing to occur doesn't necessarily mean people in the past would like the idea of tearing down all those historical site.
Modern archeology has been around ever since the 18th century and was formalized under the german archeologist Winckelmann.
No archeologist would have ever consented to any of those barbaric acts.Ziggy Stardust wrote:True enough. I am curious as to what "Iraqi archaeologists" the article claims the U.S. Army consulted with. Were they actual archaeologists? Were they actually listened to? etc.Darth Wong wrote:Hussein may have defiled it, but at least most of it was still there. These guys bulldozed it and shoveled the remains into sandbags. It's almost as if they wanted to destroy everything of archaeological value.
And this article is nothing new. We in the trade have known about this occurring ever since the invasion. There also are nice smuggling rings in place run by the US army soldiers who make some nice money on the side by selling smuggled artifacts. The worst are the robber diggers, organized private armies who use this to rob and steal everything. These guys use bulldozers as well.
However, none of this comes close than the crime of an army bulldozing the whole place and then laying concrete on top of it. Congratulations, US Army, you are now proud heirs of the vandals. Stupid barbarians....
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
Shep, your article is pure propaganda.
Here is what really happened, from 2005:
Anyway, here is the full report.
I advise anyone who wishes to discuss this to read it. It is full of British understatement, I don't know if I could have been so calm in their place. This is a desaster and a terrible loss.
Here is what really happened, from 2005:
Also, soldiers have stolen antiquities.LONDON -- US-led troops using the ancient Iraqi city of Babylon as a base have damaged and contaminated artifacts dating back thousands of years in one of the most important archeological sites in the world, the British Museum said yesterday.
Military vehicles crushed a 2,600-year-old brick pavement, for example, and archeological fragments, including broken bricks stamped by King Nebuchadnezzar II around the same time, were scattered across the site, a museum report said.
The dragons at the Ishtar Gate were marred by cracks and gaps where someone tried to remove their decorative bricks, the paper said.
John Curtis, keeper of the British Museum's Near East department, who was invited by Iraqis to study the site, also found that large quantities of sand mixed with archeological fragments have been taken from the site to fill military sandbags.
''This is tantamount to establishing a military camp around the Great Pyramid in Egypt or around Stonehenge in Britain," Curtis said in the report.
In an interview yesterday with Associated Press Television News, Iraq's minister of culture, Mufeed al-Jazairee, said coalition troops in Babylon had used ''armored vehicles and helicopters that land and take off freely. In addition to that, the forces also set up other facilities and changes."
He added, ''I expect that the archeological city of Babylon has sustained damage, but I don't know exactly the size of such damage."
The remains of Babylon have been occupied since the early days of the invasion by US Marines, and more recently, by soldiers from Poland and other countries. Babylon is 50 miles south of Baghdad.
A Polish military spokesman in Iraq said troops were cooperating with Iraqi authorities in efforts to protect the site.
''I have asked our archeologists to prepare a specific answer to the accusations, but I have to give them some time," Lieutenant Colonel Artur Domanski said.
The city's main sites -- the Ishtar Gate, the ruins of Babylon, and the Nebuchadnezzar Palace -- are in a separate area on the camp's perimeter, run by Iraqi officials as an archeological park to paying visitors.
The US military says all earth-moving has been halted and it is considering moving troops away to protect the ruins.
Lieutenant Colonel Steven Boylan, a US military spokesman in Baghdad, said all engineering works were discussed with the head of the Babylon museum.
''An archeologist examined every construction initiative for its impact on historical ruins," he said.
In the report, Curtis acknowledged that at first the US presence had helped to protect the site from looters.
But subsequent work, including the decision to cover large areas of the site with gravel brought in from elsewhere to provide parking lots and heliports, was damaging, he said.
Lord Redesdale, an archeologist who heads a parliamentary archeology committee, described the report's findings as ''just dreadful."
''Not only is what the American forces are doing damaging the archeology of Iraq, it's actually damaging the cultural heritage of the whole world," he said.
Anyway, here is the full report.
I advise anyone who wishes to discuss this to read it. It is full of British understatement, I don't know if I could have been so calm in their place. This is a desaster and a terrible loss.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
Technically, although it doesn't excuse it, I'm pretty sure the Ishtar Gate in Babylon is a replica, and so could be safely reconstructed in the same way as it was constructed. I might be mistaken, but I think due to early western archaeology in the 20th century, the Ishtar Gate is in pieces and displayed in museums around the world. I know for a fact there's a bit of it in the Louvre.
Edit- Ah, it's in the full report, apparantly I'm thinking of the top half (which was restored by Saddam), while the bottom half is still authentic. That report is horrifying, too.
Edit- Ah, it's in the full report, apparantly I'm thinking of the top half (which was restored by Saddam), while the bottom half is still authentic. That report is horrifying, too.
Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
Jupp, the original stands in the Pergamon Museum in Berlin.Duckie wrote:Technically, although it doesn't excuse it, I'm pretty sure the Ishtar Gate in Babylon is a replica, and so could be safely reconstructed in the same way as it was constructed. I might be mistaken, but I think due to early western archaeology in the 20th century, the Ishtar Gate is in pieces and displayed in museums around the world. I know for a fact there's a bit of it in the Louvre.
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
The photos don't do it justice. I may have been only ten during my visit to East Berlin when I saw it, but I still remember it extremely well.Serafina wrote:Jupp, the original stands in the Pergamon Museum in Berlin.Duckie wrote:Technically, although it doesn't excuse it, I'm pretty sure the Ishtar Gate in Babylon is a replica, and so could be safely reconstructed in the same way as it was constructed. I might be mistaken, but I think due to early western archaeology in the 20th century, the Ishtar Gate is in pieces and displayed in museums around the world. I know for a fact there's a bit of it in the Louvre.
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
The photos are pretty impressive as is. That's got to be a new reason to visit Germany in itself.
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
Anyone remember April of 2003? What a difference six years makes...and how indicative of the extent to which this Iraq bullshit has poisoned our times.
Darth Wong wrote:I'm sick of the belief that cultural objects of purely subjective value are soooooo damned important. At the end of the day, you should be more thankful for the roof over your head than the availability of Shakespeare. Put your feet back on the ground, people.
While the particulars of the Museum looting in Baghdad and the ruins of Babylon being bulldozed are different (including the question of whether or not the looting actually took place), the dismissal of the loss of ancient artifacts in one scenario and the lament of losing ancient artifacts in another strikes a very disonant chord.Stravo wrote:They are securing the sole source of wealth in Iraq. That oil is going to help rebuild this nation and feed those people. Hammurabi's code is going to feed a single fucking person. Oil is far more valuable in real world terms than some pottery and bits and pieces from a civilization long since gone. We're talking about the here and now. The moment the past becomes more valuable than human lives in the here and now we have lost something vital about ourselves. There is no intrinstic value that can be measured by these artifacts other than what we impart to them. Oil on the other hand has value.
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Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
It's nice to see that my opinions haven't changed at all in that time...
I'm actually reading Stealing History at the moment which details some of the massive looting and destruction which occurred in the immediate aftermath in Iraq.
This is a terrible series of events and it just goes to show how little respect many people have for history.
I'm actually reading Stealing History at the moment which details some of the massive looting and destruction which occurred in the immediate aftermath in Iraq.
This is a terrible series of events and it just goes to show how little respect many people have for history.
Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
Serafina wrote:Jupp, the original stands in the Pergamon Museum in Berlin.Duckie wrote:Technically, although it doesn't excuse it, I'm pretty sure the Ishtar Gate in Babylon is a replica, and so could be safely reconstructed in the same way as it was constructed. I might be mistaken, but I think due to early western archaeology in the 20th century, the Ishtar Gate is in pieces and displayed in museums around the world. I know for a fact there's a bit of it in the Louvre.
I hate it when people do not read things despite me advising to do but then shoot off their mouth about it.
From the report, which I linked to but both of you apparently did not read:
Seriously, read the report. The damage to Bablyon is extensive and horrible.The iron gates at either end of the sunken part were stolen in the looting after the war, but were recovered and have now been reinstated. However, parts have been broken off the gates and they can no longer render the area secure. The Ishtar Gate is one of the famous monuments from antiquity. The top part of the gate, with glazed brick decoration showing dragons, bulls and lions is now in Berlin, but the foundations with unglazed, moulded bricks showing animals are still in position at Babylon.
Dr Maryam pointed to the following damage to the moulded brick reliefs:-
1. There are bad cracks in tier 2 (see Polish Report, fig. on p. 90).
2. Extensive damage to body of dragon (mušhuššu) in tier 19 (see Polish Report, fig. on p.103).
3. Damage to hindquarters of dragon (mušhuššu) in tier 21 (see Polish Report, fig. on p. 104).
4. Damage to central part of body of dragon (mušhuššu) in tier 22 (see Polish Report, fig. on p. 105).
5. Damage to head and central part of body of dragon (mušhuššu) in tier 23 (see Polish Report, fig. on p. 106).
6. Damage to central part of body of dragon (mušhuššu) in tier 24 (see Polish Report, fig. on p. 106).
7. Damage to front middle part of body of dragon (mušhuššu) in tier 27 (see Polish Report, fig. on p. 110).
8. Damage to lower part of body of dragon (mušhuššu) in tier 29 (see Polish Report, fig. on p. 113).
9. Damage to upper middle part of body of dragon (mušhuššu) in tier 30 (see Polish Report, fig. on p. 113).
10. Damage to neck and upper front part of body of dragon (mušhuššu) in tier 31 (see Polish Report, fig. on p. 114).
Note: The worst damage is to the mušhuššu in tier 19 (no.2). This was already noted and photographed by the British Museum team in June, 2003. At that time, no damage was noted to the other mušhuššu figures. It has been suggested that most of the damage to the other mušhuššu figures was caused at the same time by a person or persons trying to remove a decorated brick.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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My LPs
- Sea Skimmer
- Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
- Posts: 37390
- Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
- Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
I love how much people are jumping on the US is evil bandwagon, when the original article its self points out that Saddam already used modern machinery to build himself a fucking modern palace on the grounds of the original on top of a giant pile of dirt! He also rebuilt most of the structures which are still standing, leaving very little with any real historical value above ground. Saddam also had bulldozers scrap out a canal around the site as preparation for a full scale palace complex (I'm sure they carefully sifted through every ton of earth removed!), and started building a four lane highway over it among his many improvements. But yeah I’m sure the US caused all the damage, and that it would have been way better off had it just been left open to looters forever.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
^And the full report does indeed mention which new damage has appeared since the US troops were there.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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My LPs
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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My LPs
- Darth Wong
- Sith Lord
- Posts: 70028
- Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
- Location: Toronto, Canada
- Contact:
Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
You are really reaching here. The fact that someone says human life outweighs historical artifacts does not mean he's saying historical artifacts are worthless. He's just telling people to put its value in perspective, relative to human life. I doubt it saved anyone's life to pave over an historical site to make a Humvee parking lot.Frank Hipper wrote:Anyone remember April of 2003? What a difference six years makes...and how indicative of the extent to which this Iraq bullshit has poisoned our times.
Darth Wong wrote:I'm sick of the belief that cultural objects of purely subjective value are soooooo damned important. At the end of the day, you should be more thankful for the roof over your head than the availability of Shakespeare. Put your feet back on the ground, people.While the particulars of the Museum looting in Baghdad and the ruins of Babylon being bulldozed are different (including the question of whether or not the looting actually took place), the dismissal of the loss of ancient artifacts in one scenario and the lament of losing ancient artifacts in another strikes a very disonant chord.Stravo wrote:They are securing the sole source of wealth in Iraq. That oil is going to help rebuild this nation and feed those people. Hammurabi's code is going to feed a single fucking person. Oil is far more valuable in real world terms than some pottery and bits and pieces from a civilization long since gone. We're talking about the here and now. The moment the past becomes more valuable than human lives in the here and now we have lost something vital about ourselves. There is no intrinstic value that can be measured by these artifacts other than what we impart to them. Oil on the other hand has value.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
- Darth Wong
- Sith Lord
- Posts: 70028
- Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
- Location: Toronto, Canada
- Contact:
Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
You can't refute accusations about irresponsible or criminal US army conduct by pointing out that Saddam was worse. This is like the people who tried to dismiss Abu-Ghraib by pointing out that Saddam tortured prisoners more severely.Sea Skimmer wrote:I love how much people are jumping on the US is evil bandwagon, when the original article its self points out that Saddam already used modern machinery to build himself a fucking modern palace on the grounds of the original on top of a giant pile of dirt! He also rebuilt most of the structures which are still standing, leaving very little with any real historical value above ground. Saddam also had bulldozers scrap out a canal around the site as preparation for a full scale palace complex (I'm sure they carefully sifted through every ton of earth removed!), and started building a four lane highway over it among his many improvements. But yeah I’m sure the US caused all the damage, and that it would have been way better off had it just been left open to looters forever.
![Image](http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/Avatars/500.jpg)
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
- Frank Hipper
- Overfiend of the Superego
- Posts: 12882
- Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
- Location: Hamilton, Ohio?
Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
While that's beside the point I was trying to make (the Iraqi oil ministry's preservation in light of subsequent events), I fail to see where people's lives were being compromised for the sake of ancient artifacts, despite repeated argumentation of that being so.
Dismissal of the loss of artifacts does not equate to a claim of artifacts being worthless, as well.
I could light a twenty dollar bill on fire to make some sort of demonstration od dismissal, but that wouldn't mean that bill is worthless to me.
Dismissal of the loss of artifacts does not equate to a claim of artifacts being worthless, as well.
I could light a twenty dollar bill on fire to make some sort of demonstration od dismissal, but that wouldn't mean that bill is worthless to me.
![Image](http://www.stardestroyer.net/Armour/HipperSIG.png)
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
- Darth Wong
- Sith Lord
- Posts: 70028
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- Contact:
Re: Babylon’s ancient wonder, lying in ruins
If you recall, six years ago the world outrage over the destruction of Buddha statues in Afghanistan was still pretty recent and fresh in peoples' minds. Many people, myself included, were rather disgusted at the way nobody gave a damn about women being oppressed for years but then rose up in anger about the destruction of a bunch of statues. It's the general principle which people need reminding of.Frank Hipper wrote:While that's beside the point I was trying to make (the Iraqi oil ministry's preservation in light of subsequent events), I fail to see where people's lives were being compromised for the sake of ancient artifacts, despite repeated argumentation of that being so.
It means it's worth less to you than whatever amusement you got from setting it on fire, which does say something about how little you value it.Dismissal of the loss of artifacts does not equate to a claim of artifacts being worthless, as well.
I could light a twenty dollar bill on fire to make some sort of demonstration od dismissal, but that wouldn't mean that bill is worthless to me.
![Image](http://www.stardestroyer.net/BoardPics/Avatars/500.jpg)
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html