KrauserKrauser hyperventilating(Obama's Gates comment)

[Big Phil]

I tend to agree, there is also the matter of the police report not only contradicting Gates account, but also the public statement of the witness that made the call.

The public statement released by Whalen's attorney is weird to me. The focus of Whalen and her attorney as her attorney put it "to clear my clients name" was to make sure everyone knew she didn't mention the color of skin. Why is that such a big deal? When you're giving a good suspect description you help police do their job. You're not being racist when you say that there are two black people wearing such and such attempting to break into this home using their shoulders you're simply reporting what you see.

Whalen's call was made public because a number of newspaper columnists and media whores were accusing her of being racist, arguing that she only made the call because she saw "two black men" breaking into a house, suggesting that she wouldn't have made the call had it been two white men. Having heard the 911 call, she laid the situation out pretty clearly: she didn't know if it was a break-in or someone having forgotten their house keys having to get in.

Whalen sounds like she deserves a pat on the back for being a concerned and responsible neighbor, but instead she's being used in a tug of war between white racist assholes and black slanderous assholes, and she's defending her good name.

[Ryan Thunder]

[...] Black people have every right to be pissed off at YOU in particular. [...]

Look, I'm done with this. Enough is enough. I refuse to allow your self-righteous shit to be heaped on me when I've done nothing to you to deserve it, so no, I am not going to concede that you have some kind of right to be pissed at me because I'm white (and that comes with some advantages that I didn't ask for and can't share anyway) and you aren't. That is all.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

[...] Black people have every right to be pissed off at YOU in particular. [...]

Look, I'm done with this. Enough is enough. I refuse to allow your self-righteous shit to be heaped on me when I've done nothing to you to deserve it, so no, I am not going to concede that you have some kind of right to be pissed at me because I'm white (and that comes with some advantages that I didn't ask for and can't share anyway) and you aren't. That is all.

You're being more than a little dishonest there. He (and other visible minorities) don't have a right to be pissed at you merely because you're white. They have a right to be pissed at you because you're white and you've repeatedly tried to handwave away the highly pervasive shit they had to go through every day of their lives less than fifty years ago and still deny the loads of shit they still have to go through today. He's even explicitly stated this multiple times.

Do you notice DW being pissed at any of the other white people participating in this thread?

[Darth Wong]

[...] Black people have every right to be pissed off at YOU in particular. [...]

Look, I'm done with this. Enough is enough. I refuse to allow your self-righteous shit to be heaped on me when I've done nothing to you to deserve it, so no, I am not going to concede that you have some kind of right to be pissed at me because I'm white (and that comes with some advantages that I didn't ask for and can't share anyway) and you aren't. That is all.

You're so goddamned stupid I can't believe you can tie your own shoes. I'm not pissed off at you just because you're white. I'm pissed off at you because you're a smug white asshole. You say things like "The road runs both ways" after posting a worthless personal anecdote, in order to claim that there's no such thing as pervasive white racism. And then, when confronted with hard evidence to the contrary, you just start hemming and hawing and bullshitting. The fact is that you have repeatedly moved the goalposts in this dispute, failed to acknowledge points (or even demonstrate that you understood them until you were beaten over the head with them repeatedly), and you have proven yourself not only to be incredibly arrogant about race, but also dishonest and stupid.

Hell, your stupidity and intransigence alone is more than enough reason for me to be pissed off at this point. The fact is that you went on record dismissing racism. You planted your flag firmly in the "white guys who think minorities are just whiny" camp, and you don't understand why I think minorities have a right to be angry at you?

Every time I make this point, you ignore it and either claim that I'm blaming you for the sins of the past or that I'm blaming you just for being white with no reference to your conduct in this thread, despite the fact that I have repeatedly explained precisely what I am attacking, and it is neither of those things. This endless strawmanning is going to end now. Either address my actual position or I will shove your goddamned strawman distortions up your worthless ass.

PS. The strawman distortion is pretty obviously deliberate on your part. Don't think I didn't notice how you carefully snipped out a sentence from my paragraph so that all of the surrounding discussion of your conduct in this thread was removed.

[Keevan_Colton]

I tend to agree, there is also the matter of the police report not only contradicting Gates account, but also the public statement of the witness that made the call.

The public statement released by Whalen's attorney is weird to me. The focus of Whalen and her attorney as her attorney put it "to clear my clients name" was to make sure everyone knew she didn't mention the color of skin. Why is that such a big deal? When you're giving a good suspect description you help police do their job. You're not being racist when you say that there are two black people wearing such and such attempting to break into this home using their shoulders you're simply reporting what you see.

Whalen's call was made public because a number of newspaper columnists and media whores were accusing her of being racist, arguing that she only made the call because she saw "two black men" breaking into a house, suggesting that she wouldn't have made the call had it been two white men. Having heard the 911 call, she laid the situation out pretty clearly: she didn't know if it was a break-in or someone having forgotten their house keys having to get in.

Whalen sounds like she deserves a pat on the back for being a concerned and responsible neighbor, but instead she's being used in a tug of war between white racist assholes and black slanderous assholes, and she's defending her good name.

Actually, the discrepancy that interests me more is this one:

Attorney Wendy Murphy also categorically rejected part of the police report that said her client, Lucia Whalen, talked with Sgt. James Crowley, the arresting officer, at the scene.

"Let me be clear: She never had a conversation with Sgt. Crowley at the scene,"

[Ryan Thunder]

<snip>

Fine, whatever. Conceded.

[Lagmonster]

<snip>

Fine, whatever. Conceded.

You should consider reading the rebuttals in order to understand why you are wrong rather than dismissing them like a smarmy teenager just because you don't want to play anymore.

[Darth Wong]

This smarmy little shit ... tell me, what exactly does he contribute to the board? If I just ban the little ass-wipe right now, what do we lose? I can't recall a single N&P thread he's ever participated in where he said anything remotely intelligent, regardless of which side he was on. He always just spews half-assed opinions which he hasn't bothered thinking through, and appears not to understand the rebuttals.

[Ryan Thunder]

You should consider reading the rebuttals in order to understand why you are wrong rather than dismissing them like a smarmy teenager just because you don't want to play anymore.

Very well.

Hell, your stupidity and intransigence alone is more than enough reason for me to be pissed off at this point. The fact is that you went on record dismissing racism. You planted your flag firmly in the "white guys who think minorities are just whiny" camp, and you don't understand why I think minorities have a right to be angry at you?

Look, don't you understand that I might be reluctant to accept that its a problem when I'm, for example, short on cash for school and the only thing preventing me from getting a particular scholarship when I graduated from high school basically boiled down to me being "white", or when I'm at a university where the vast majority of students are from the Far East and have massive superiority complexes, or when my old boss makes mountains out of any minor error I might make, but refuses to speak ill of a worthless incompetent parasite of an employee because he happens to be of the same visible minority she is, or when the only example of racism against a minority that I can find is my fucking grandparents' attitude towards East Indians?

But yeah, I understand that you might be angry at me for what I said.

[Darth Wong]

Look, don't you understand that I might be reluctant to accept that its a problem when I'm, for example, short on cash for school and the only thing preventing me from getting a particular scholarship when I graduated from high school basically boiled down to me being "white", or when I'm at a university where the vast majority of students are from the Far East and have massive superiority complexes, or when my old boss makes mountains out of any minor error I might make, but refuses to speak ill of a worthless incompetent parasite of an employee because he happens to be of the same visible minority she is, or when the only example of racism against a minority that I can find is my fucking grandparents' attitude towards East Indians?

Oh really? That's what you tell yourself? The only reason you didn't get a scholarship is because you're white? Your grades had nothing to do with it? And you keep pushing this worthless personal anecdote of yours as some kind of disproof of the actual scholarly study that I posted a link to?

But yeah, I understand that you might be angry at me for what I said.

YOU ARE A GODDAMNED LIAR. Even after repeatedly being shown the link demonstrating the persistence of racial bias, you say things like "the only example of racism against a minority that I can find is my fucking grandparents' attitude towards East Indians". That is an outright lie. You no doubt think I'm pissed at you just because I have some kind of emotional complex; you don't seem to realize how completely unreasonable (not to mention dishonest) you have been here. You keep blithely ignoring a piece of evidence that doesn't suit your attitudes, and apparently hoping no one will notice. We have fucking rules against this kind of dishonest conduct, you worthless piece of shit.

[Ryan Thunder]

Look, don't you understand that I might be reluctant to accept that its a problem when I'm, for example, short on cash for school and the only thing preventing me from getting a particular scholarship when I graduated from high school basically boiled down to me being "white", or when I'm at a university where the vast majority of students are from the Far East and have massive superiority complexes, or when my old boss makes mountains out of any minor error I might make, but refuses to speak ill of a worthless incompetent parasite of an employee because he happens to be of the same visible minority she is, or when the only example of racism against a minority that I can find is my fucking grandparents' attitude towards East Indians?

Oh really? That's what you tell yourself? The only reason you didn't get a scholarship is because you're white? Your grades had nothing to do with it? And you keep pushing this worthless personal anecdote of yours as some kind of disproof of the actual scholarly study that I posted a link to?

No. And actually the basic requirements for the scholarship were pretty much that.

But yeah, I understand that you might be angry at me for what I said.

YOU ARE A GODDAMNED LIAR. Even after repeatedly being shown the link demonstrating the persistence of racial bias, you say things like "the only example of racism against a minority that I can find is my fucking grandparents' attitude towards East Indians". That is an outright lie. You no doubt think I'm pissed at you just because I have some kind of emotional complex; you don't seem to realize how completely unreasonable (not to mention dishonest) you have been here. You keep blithely ignoring a piece of evidence that doesn't suit your attitudes, and apparently hoping no one will notice. We have fucking rules against this kind of dishonest conduct, you worthless piece of shit.

I should've said "could", but I doubt you'll give me the benefit of the doubt.

I acknowledge the study and concede that it's incontrovertible evidence of pervasive racism in society.

[Ziggy Stardust]

<snip> when I'm at a university where the vast majority of students are from the Far East and have massive superiority complexes,

Do they have massive superiority complexes? I hear this complaint from lots of American college students, and it is almost never true. Usually the kids complaining are just smug white assholes (to use Wong's parlance) who grew up in predominantly white communities and aren't used to dealing with intelligent and competitive minorities. And, hell, a lot of the times these students DESERVE to have a superiority complex, because they come from a significantly less advantaged environment and are still able to be on par with or better than the smug white assholes.

[Ryan Thunder]

<snip> when I'm at a university where the vast majority of students are from the Far East and have massive superiority complexes,

Do they have massive superiority complexes? I hear this complaint from lots of American college students, and it is almost never true. Usually the kids complaining are just smug white assholes (to use Wong's parlance) who grew up in predominantly white communities and aren't used to dealing with intelligent and competitive minorities.

No, you're partially right. I am used to dealing with intelligent and competitive minorities on a daily basis, ever since elementary school. What I'm not used to is dealing with people who pretty much size me up and figure I'm here because I'm white, rich, and male and proceed from there.

[Ziggy Stardust]

What I'm not used to is dealing with people who pretty much size me up and figure I'm here because I'm white, rich, and male and proceed from there.

And how do you know you're not? Although Wong's study applies to job applications, is there any reason to suspect the same problem doesn't carry over into college applications?

EDIT: I am not trying to say that it IS necessarily the case, or that you would be unable to get into college without being white, rich, and male, I am just bringing this up for purposes of discussion.

[Darth Wong]

No. And actually the basic requirements for the scholarship were pretty much that.

Show me evidence, asshole. After your circus of lies, I am not willing to take you at your word that the only barrier keeping you from a scholarship was your whiteness, and not your grades.

[Next of Kin]

Boo hoo for you Thunder. There are going to be many people who have experienced racism (of the kind that you will never experience in your white bread life) that will hold the point of view. Take a moment to see where they are coming from and then you might understand why they may hold such a view of you.

[Ryan Thunder]

What I'm not used to is dealing with people who pretty much size me up and figure I'm here because I'm white, rich, and male and proceed from there.

And how do you know you're not? Although Wong's study applies to job applications, is there any reason to suspect the same problem doesn't carry over into college applications?

I would hope not, but I suppose that it could be true. My average when I graduated was something like an 83 or so.

No. And actually the basic requirements for the scholarship were pretty much that.

Show me evidence, asshole. After your circus of lies, I am not willing to take you at your word that the only barrier keeping you from a scholarship was your whiteness, and not your grades.

I actually couldn't so much as apply for it unless I was a member of a visible minority. There was a checklist of 'races' I guess (i.e. Caucasian, African, etc.). I can't even remember what it was called, though, so I'll agree to discard it if you distrust me that much.

[Darth Wong]

How convenient that you can't come up with a shred of evidence (not even the name of the scholarship) when challenged. You're not behaving like the stereotypical smug entitlement-minded rich spoiled white boy at all, no sir. Hell, you're so fucking oblivious that you don't even understand why the hard-working minorities look down on the spoiled rich white boy. Judging by your execrable debating skills in this thread, I don't think I need to look too hard to figure out why you didn't get that fucking scholarship.

[Next of Kin]

I would hope not, but I suppose that it could be true. My average when I graduated was something like an 83 or so.

Ryan, you do realize that with an 83% average that you'll have many more students to compete with for your scholarship. How can you chalk it up to the fact that your white?

[Ziggy Stardust]

I actually couldn't so much as apply for it unless I was a member of a visible minority. There was a checklist of 'races' I guess (i.e. Caucasian, African, etc.).

It's true that there are scholarships that are offered exclusively to minority students, but that shouldn't necessarily bar you from OTHER scholarships. I don't know much about how the system works in Canada, but a brief Google search shows me that your grade average is high enough that you should have been applicable for merit-based scholarships available either through the institution or the government (on both the federal and provincial levels). Once again, I am not familiar with the Canadian system, and whether or not these are readily available as they are in the U.S., but did you try looking for these types of aid programs?

[Darth Wong]

I actually couldn't so much as apply for it unless I was a member of a visible minority. There was a checklist of 'races' I guess (i.e. Caucasian, African, etc.).

It's true that there are scholarships that are offered exclusively to minority students, but that shouldn't necessarily bar you from OTHER scholarships. I don't know much about how the system works in Canada, but a brief Google search shows me that your grade average is high enough that you should have been applicable for merit-based scholarships available either through the institution or the government (on both the federal and provincial levels). Once again, I am not familiar with the Canadian system, and whether or not these are readily available as they are in the U.S., but did you try looking for these types of aid programs?

It's possible that 83% did not qualify him. Different high schools have different "fudge factors" because some of them grade rather easily. A while ago there was a student from one particular high school in Ontario who graduated with an average above one hundred percent, which is a good example of the sort of nonsense I'm talking about. That particular high school probably had a pretty high fudge factor.

In any case, it's worthless until he produces evidence, which he won't. But even if there were such programs that he would otherwise be eligible for (and I don't personally recall being eligible for any when I went to school here), he is failing to understand that such programs are entirely designed to compensate for pervasive racism directed against these minorities. Whining about them is only more of the same: he is refusing to recognize the need for these programs, and so he perceives them as unfair. In many cases, these programs are no more favourable to an Asian than they are to a white person, because quite frankly, Asians tend to get really high marks. Some schools would actually admit more Asians if they killed off any kind of AA programs.

[aerius]

I would hope not, but I suppose that it could be true. My average when I graduated was something like an 83 or so.

You expect to get a scholarship with a mere 83% average? Are you fucking shitting me? It ain't happening unless you apply for a business or arts program in some dipshit college like Georgian. The best you'll get out of any respectable college or university program with that mark is a residence subsidy of $1000-$2000, assuming you can keep a certain GPA once you're there.

[Lusankya]

Isn't it possible that you want to increase minority participation in certain areas anyway for social, integration or cultural purposes?

A random example: aboriginal doctors might be more effective when treating aboriginal patients than white doctors because they have a level of cultural fluency that white doctors can't emulate, which would make communication easier. (Certainly, one of the issues with aboriginal health is the issue of intercultural miscommunication.)

Also, as long as minorities view themselves as a disadvantaged minority, they might not consider higher education as an option for themselves. In this case, encouraging minorities to attend higher education institutions might pave the way for further participation by members of the same minority.

Granted, I have no studies to back my suppositions up, but if they are correct, then there are some reasons why scholarships aimed at minorities would be required.

[Mr. Coffee]

Shit, I look down on spoiled rich white boys.

[Darth Wong]

Shit, I look down on spoiled rich white boys.

Exactly. Who doesn't, except for rich white boys themselves?