Saxton's Ewok Holocaust Theory

[Master of Ossus]

IMO, everything in the EU is at risk of being contradicted by Episode Three. Although this is unrelated to the discussion, just saying that no one should trust EU sources anymore for debates. But I still think the Rebels somehow saved the Ewoks, and the planetary/theater shields seems like the most efficient way they did it.

Why do you think that the Rebels saved the Ewoks. Your thoughts do not mean that they did. They are irrelevent during a debate. Just because you think something happened does not mean that it did, and in this case there is clearly an issue with Occam's Razor.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

I think the Rebels saved the Ewoks because every scene in the movie suggests they LIKED the Ewoks. Last time I checked, when you're about to let an entire planet get destroyed by pieces of shit hurtling towards it, you don't party with its natives at night. You don't forget all of your worries and let all of your military personnel go off-duty and/or shooting off fireworks with starfighters. You don't do any of that, and yet the Rebels.....DID!!!! Whatever could that mean??? That they somehow saved the Ewoks and had nothing to worry about that night? Or that they were just staying on Endor awaiting their impending doom?

"Hey Luke, look at those big chunks of Death Star II hurtling towards us, burning up in the atmosphere!"
"Yeah....but aren't those fireworks prettier, Leia?"
"Yeah...let's go dance with some Ewoks."
"Wait...don't you think we should do something about those chunks of metal that would destroy all life on this planet?"
"Nah, don't worry about it."
"Okily-dokily-doo! Oh wait a minute...."
(Looks at Anakin, Yoda, and Ben.)
"Destroyed, Endor will be!!"
"Trust your feelings Luke! Let go!"
"But die, Ewoks will!"
"No, Luke.....I am your father...."
"I know that...and stop breathing on me!!!"
"Oh, yeah that's right....sorry..."
"Use the Force, Luke.....to dance with the Ewoks...."
"Begun the Ewok Holocaust has...."
"Master Yoda, quit your whining!!!"
"Master Skywalker has lost a planet....how embarrassing.....how embarrassing....."
LOL

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

You only saw relatively FEW people at that party, did you not? And I can even buy they might be able to save the Ewoks. Between all the cruisers and frigates surviving, they can probably cram a few thousand surviving Ewoks in if they had to.

But saving the planet is simply beyond their demonstrated abilities at the time. The people down there might have liked the Ewoks, but the decision to save them (if they could) is from the High Command, like Mon Mothma and Ackbar, whose opinions you had never really seen.

I suppose the party's where they break it to the Ewoks. Here's what I think could have happened:

Blissfully ignorant Reb commandoes and Ewoks celebrate, then Han Solo or Leia gets call from ships above:

"Hey Han, it's Ackbar. I'm sorry to inform you those explosions above you are not fireworks. They're chunks of the Death Star."
"What?"
"You'll have to cut your party short. We've done all we could, but the dust from all the incoming projectiles are going to blot out the planet."
"But what do I tell the Ewoks? They're my friends!"
"I'll send some shuttles down and load them onto the damaged ships so we can send them home with the rest."
[sighs] "Acknowledged, out."

[IRG CommandoJoe]

WTF are you talking about??? Are you saying that the Rebels wouldn't have checked to see where the debris was heading and its ETA to the planet??? And then after checking that, they would send Lando Calrissian, Wedge Antilles, Rogue Squadron, and keep Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia Organa, Chewbacca, elite Rebel commandos, the droids, and an entire species on the planet while this debris was heading towards them??? And you also suggest that the debris is unusually slow, after exploding from a space station the size of a small moon, that it wouldn't have hit the planet after several hours. And to boot, the Rebels would ignore their impending doom and have their military starfighters start shooting off fireworks and celebrating??

"YAY!!! WE KILLED THE EMPEROR, DARTH VADER, DESTROYED THE DEATH STAR II, DESTROYED THE EXECUTOR, AND BROUGHT DOWN THE EMPIRE!!! NOW WE COULD CARE LESS ABOUT THE CHUNKS OF METAL HURTLING TOWARDS US THAT WILL KILL US ALL AFTER YEARS OF FIGHTING, RUNNING FROM, AND OUTSMARTING THE EMPIRE IN A WAR OF GOOD VERSUS EVIL THAT RAVAGED THE ENTIRE GALAXY, TOOK AWAY THE LIVES OF BILLIONS, AND THAT WE BARELY HAD A CHANCE OF WINNING!!!"

We obviously know that Endor was not in any danger at all. Otherwise Endor would have immediately been evacuated. But what's this...? It....WASN'T! There is nothing on film that suggests any danger at all to Endor or anyone on the planet. The only thing we don't know is howthey protected Endor. Did Endor speed away from the debris in its orbit? Did the Rebel fleet somehow project their shields to protect Endor from the debris? Did the Rebels on Endor find and activate Imperial planetary shields already on Endor to get rid of the debris? Did the Rebels set up their own planetary shields to get rid of the debris? Who knows? Only one thing is certain; there wasn't an Ewok Holocaust.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Also, I should add, that if any EU supports the theory that the Ewoks were destroyed, it's obviously contradicted by the movies, the most canon source that overrides everything else. Thus, George Lucas' vision of everyone living happily ever after is canon; an extinction of an entire species is not.

[Master of Ossus]

Also, I should add, that if any EU supports the theory that the Ewoks were destroyed, it's obviously contradicted by the movies, the most canon source that overrides everything else. Thus, George Lucas' vision of everyone living happily ever after is canon; an extinction of an entire species is not.

How the hell is it contradicted by the movies? Just because you like someone doesn't mean you can save them. I had absolutely no problems with my Grandmother, but that didn't mean I had the ability to save her from dying of cancer a few years ago. We are not trying to figure out if they would have done it, right now. We are trying to figure out if they COULD have saved Endor. And the answer to that appears to be no.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Somehow they did save the Ewoks. That's the point I'm making. Prove that the Ewoks were destroyed using RotJ, and not EU. There is nothing in it that proves that Endor was hit with debris.

[Master of Ossus]

Somehow they did save the Ewoks. That's the point I'm making. Prove that the Ewoks were destroyed using RotJ, and not EU. There is nothing in it that proves that Endor was hit with debris.

Sure there is proof. In the RotJ novelisation it specifically mentions debris striking the atmosphere, causing the "fireworks" that we saw in RotJ at the end. The novelisation is canon.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

We obviously know that Endor was not in any danger at all. Otherwise Endor would have immediately been evacuated. But what's this...? It....WASN'T! There is nothing on film that suggests any danger at all to Endor or anyone on the planet. The only thing we don't know is howthey protected Endor. Did Endor speed away from the debris in its orbit? Did the Rebel fleet somehow project their shields to protect Endor from the debris? Did the Rebels on Endor find and activate Imperial planetary shields already on Endor to get rid of the debris? Did the Rebels set up their own planetary shields to get rid of the debris? Who knows? Only one thing is certain; there wasn't an Ewok Holocaust.

Have you considered the fact that they were in a finishing phase of a space battle, and so for a good time, no one might have thought to inform them for a few hours yet and after that, they are in delirium from the victory?

I suppose they were lucky, that the destruction was fairly complete, so there were only a few large chunks, with the rest being small debris of little immediate (within the day or two) effects.

And you're ignoring the order of logic analysis. The laws of physics are a LOT more predictable than the actions of human beings. This is a variant of the old dialogue (character interpretation) versus visuals (direct scientific observation) argument and you know the "club rules" here.

You are just trying to shove the burden of proof back to us, to fulfill your wish that Endor was not wrecked. The burden is really on you. The fact the Death Star blew up already ENSURES Endor's doom by DEFAULT. It is you that needs to find hard evidence to say otherwise, not us.

[Darth Wong]

Somehow they did save the Ewoks. That's the point I'm making. Prove that the Ewoks were destroyed using RotJ, and not EU. There is nothing in it that proves that Endor was hit with debris.

You are shifting the burden of proof. The laws of physics dictate that much of this enormous mass of debris released in very low orbit must fall into the planet's atmosphere. We do not need any more proof than the fact that the Endor moon had an atmosphere, gravity, and only about a thousand km between its surface and the exploding Death Star.

The fact is that you have produced no evidence to disprove the Endor holocaust theory. All you have are suppositions derived from your subjective impressions of George Lucas's state of mind, or the fact that the Rebels were partying on the surface.

They just killed the Emperor and destroyed the Death Star. Of course they were partying! Did you think they should be sombre and morose just because they have to evacuate the Ewoks before the environmental effects kick in?

PS. There was no second shield generator. From ROTJ novelization p.168: "Ackbar looked at the view-screen; the electronically generated web was gone. The moon, and the Death Star, now floated in empty, unprotected space." The shield generator produced one shield which protected both Endor and DS2.

[Master of Ossus]

In spite of your effort to shift the burden of proof, you have still failed to demonstrate that the Ewoks were saved (somehow). We have canon evidence that debris was hitting the atmosphere, and Occam's Razor dictates to us that in order to move on to examining ever more complex (and sometimes nonsensical) theories, we must first eliminate (or at least, examine), the most obvious one.

[Ender]

Essential Guide to Aliens says Endor is fine. Saxton is wrong by virtue of official lit.

[Master of Ossus]

Hmmm.... Having re-read the article (which I had forgotten), I am forced to concede defeat. You were correct. I wonder how the Rebels saved them. The world may never know.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Saxton will probably invoke the canon>official clause. Since there is no scientifically intelligent way to save Endor itself based on canon data, it'll probably be ruled a Direct Contradiction and cut out.

Precedent in point: Just about every official source agrees that the Executor is 5 miles long, but it ain't. No one says Saxton is wrong by "virtue of official lit."

If the exact words of the Alien guide allows, the words will be re-interpreted, but otherwise it'll be a vs, and it'll just lose.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

The problem with the EGA is that nobody writing bothered to sit down and think about the consequences of all that debris hitting the moon.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Based on the Saxton theory I started to write something invovling Mor-woks. Carnivourus/canabalistic underground dwelling Ewoks. Who of course ate the NR survey team....

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Wait...there was only one thousand kilometers between the Death Star II and Endor? Than shouldn't the debris have already hit the moon by the time of the party? If that have happened, wouldn't we have seen smog and all of the horrible environmental effects of pieces of junk flying towards the moon at very high speeds? And in the RotJ SE, the "explosions" of debris was indeed fireworks. Otherwise, it would mean pieces of debris from something else was burning up in the atmosphere of Bespin. And also on Coruscant. Because the "explosions" were exactly the same at Endor, Bespin, and Coruscant. Surely debris wasn't hitting all three locations on one day and from the Death Star? The only logical conclusion is that they were fireworks for the celebration. And why would Yoda, Anakin, and Obi-Wan Kenobi just stand there, smiling at Luke when horrible things were going to happen??? Why wouldn't Obi-Wan feel a great disturbance in the Force similar to the one he felt when Alderaan was destroyed? If they noticed the Rebels were slacking off, wouldn't they tell Luke? And when the Rebels celebrate, wouldn't they celebrate at the end of something? Such as their worries and fears? So why would they start celebrating when they have to evacuate the Ewoks or somehow save the planet? I just find it hard to believe that these people would just throw all of their cares away when their jobs still are not over. Did Admiral Ackbar just forget about the Death Star as soon as the Executorslammed into it? So why would he just forget about trying to pull off an evacuation of an entire species of Ewoks that they are undoutedly allies with? How long would you suppose it would take for that debris to reach the atmosphere at only one thousand kilometers away, with its speed constantly increasing? Ewoks would have to gather all of their personal possessions, finally say goodbye to their homeworld, make sure their friends and loved ones were safely on transports, all of the basic panicking, disorder, and chaos civilians would have when leaving their homes. Why stop there? Wouldn't the Ewoks be want to stay on their homeworld like any of us would? Wouldn't the Rebels try hard to convince them to leave? Wouldn't there be sadness at the fact that an entire race had to leave its home, after a long history of countless generations of their people on that planet, living and prospering before the Galactic War destroyed their lives? Unless you suggest the Rebels are deprived of feeling and compassion towards others, they wouldn't be whooping it up in that situation. CERTAINLY not Leia or Luke. But they were. The situation is far more complicated than what was seen in the movie, so this suggests there was no disaster or a loss of a homeworld.

[Darth Wong]

Here's a hint: use paragraphs.

Wait...there was only one thousand kilometers between the Death Star II and Endor? Than shouldn't the debris have already hit the moon by the time of the party?

Its atmosphere, yes. Although it would be widely distributed.

If that have happened, wouldn't we have seen smog and all of the horrible environmental effects of pieces of junk flying towards the moon at very high speeds?

It's mostly vapour, so it will enter the atmosphere and slowly precipitate into liquid droplets and then solid particles. It might not be that visibly obvious until it precipitates, although you would get a lot of heating and thermal radiation. Not sure how long this would take.

And why would Yoda, Anakin, and Obi-Wan Kenobi just stand there, smiling at Luke when horrible things were going to happen???

For the same reason that Qui-Gon considered it a great triumph to accomplish their mission and leave Tatooine behind them, its system of slavery intact. They only care about defeating their enemy, not about the unfortunates they failed to help.

Why wouldn't Obi-Wan feel a great disturbance in the Force similar to the one he felt when Alderaan was destroyed?

Because they're not dead yet! This is a long-term environmental catastrophe, not instant death! Can't you read?

If they noticed the Rebels were slacking off, wouldn't they tell Luke? And when the Rebels celebrate, wouldn't they celebrate at the end of something? Such as their worries and fears? So why would they start celebrating when they have to evacuate the Ewoks or somehow save the planet? I just find it hard to believe that these people would just throw all of their cares away when their jobs still are not over.

Hmmm, interesting point. You're saying that people don't celebrate until they have no worries at all. By that logic, why would people celebrate the end of war, when it means they have to start the agonizing work of rebuilding their shattered cities and economies? Oh, wait. People do that, don't they? It's amazing how many silly sci-fi arguments can be defeated by simply comparing them to real-life.

Did Admiral Ackbar just forget about the Death Star as soon as the Executorslammed into it? So why would he just forget about trying to pull off an evacuation of an entire species of Ewoks that they are undoutedly allies with? How long would you suppose it would take for that debris to reach the atmosphere at only one thousand kilometers away, with its speed constantly increasing?

Not long. However, it would take hours for environmental effects to begin, and weeks before they begin to actually cause mass casualties.

Unless you suggest the Rebels are deprived of feeling and compassion towards others, they wouldn't be whooping it up in that situation.

Right. Just like the USA looked at the shattered remains of Europe and decided to be really sombre after WW2 and not celebrate. Whoops- wrong again!

CERTAINLY not Leia or Luke. But they were. The situation is far more complicated than what was seen in the movie, so this suggests there was no disaster or a loss of a homeworld.

So you presume to ignore the laws of physics based solely on your highly questionable claim that nobody would celebrate a stunning victory over a galactic despot if there's an evacuation still to be done? You feel that the laws of physics are a less reliable predictive method than your assumptions about human behaviour?

[Typhonis 1]

OK peeps for those of you who belive there was a planetary strength shield on Endor.Why use it on Endor when they could have set it up on the DS2 instead allowing it toi defednd itsself??I mean they had the superlaser working but no shields???

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Ok, I'll put paragraphs. I guess I misunderstood that it would be long-term environmental effects. I assumed there were kilometer-sized pieces of debris hurtling towards Endor, that would be resistant to the atmosphere and hit it like an asteroid would. Apparantly, that's not the case.

But then again, who celebrated on the battlefields in WW2? They celebrated when they got home. In the war, on the battlefield, battle-hardened soldiers were still depressed from the war. Hell, how would you feel if you won a war, but only to find out that you failed to save six million Jews from extermination? That's what happened when the Allies liberated the concentration camps. It must have felt nothing like a victory to find that out. I would imagine it felt more like a victory when soldiers were welcomed home with ticker-tape parades. And how would it feel for the Russians to win the war, but have 20 million of their people die for it?

And is it me or did you ignore a specific part of my post?

"Ewoks would have to gather all of their personal possessions, finally say goodbye to their homeworld, make sure their friends and loved ones were safely on transports, all of the basic panicking, disorder, and chaos civilians would have when leaving their homes. Why stop there? Wouldn't the Ewoks be want to stay on their homeworld like any of us would? Wouldn't the Rebels try hard to convince them to leave? Wouldn't there be sadness at the fact that an entire race had to leave its home, after a long history of countless generations of their people on that planet, living and prospering before the Galactic War destroyed their lives?"

Although this would sort of disappear in the celebrations, no? I guess it might to some people, but I sure as hell wouldn't be thinking about an end to a war I fought so hard for only to discover I'd have to leave behind my planet and establish my life elsewhere.

The people of France, for instance, were already at home. They didn't have to take what little possessions and family members they had left and travel to America to survive. They could at least stay at home and rebuild their lives there. There was no environmental disaster that would happen.

I believe maybe a better comparison to use would be how the people of Nagasaki and Hiroshima felt, where their homes were destroyed and radiation forced them to leave. They hardly felt like celebrating that the war ended, and probably if they did win they wouldn't be in the mood to.

Or maybe even the Jews, when they had to find new homes after they had been treated and nursed back to health. But when you think of it, there really aren't many comparisons you could make to something like Ewoks leaving a planet because it will be uninhabitable with the results of WW2.

I suppose you are right, but it does get me thinking of how it would really turn out if something like that happened to Earth.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Actually you didn't check into the Illegitamacy rates in France and Britan did you. Surviving a Bomber run, or a Hedge Row battle often was quite the cause for celebration during the war. England and France saw a LOT of Parting Americans during that time. Ditto East Front action. The Africa front actually had it's own Government run Brothels.

[Ender]

Interesting note:
The latest issue of Tales shows that the Executor survived the explosion, hit the moon, mostly intact, with at least one of it's cannons still operational.

Bet that one goes under the listing of non-canon bit from Tales. Bit still interesting...

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Tales?

[Crazy_Vasey]

If something the size of the Executor hit the planet wouldn't that be like planet killer level impact?

[Master of Ossus]

Interesting note:
The latest issue of Tales shows that the Executor survived the explosion, hit the moon, mostly intact, with at least one of it's cannons still operational.

Bet that one goes under the listing of non-canon bit from Tales. Bit still interesting...

Irrelevent. Canon overrides official. The Executor was destroyed when it struck the DSII.