O'Reilly Explains Canada's Health System -Fucking Hilarious!

[Darth Wong]

To be fair about the "intents."

My opinion on the matter is that "actions" are ethically neutral. "Results" are the most important. And "Intents" (well reasonable intents anyway) do have an influence on the ethics of a course of action. For example if someone has the intent to cause a positive result, he has a reasonable and informed belief that those positive results will occur, and instead a harmful result occurs, has he really done anything unethical?

He's done something accidental. That's what the word "accident" is for.

Unfortunately the way our society looks at things, in that actions are more important than results in determining right and wrong, committing an action that is considered "wrong" due to a positive intent, that produces a harmful result, are considered the worst crimes (aside from commiting an action that is considered wrong, with bad intentions that causes harmful results.) Because not only are you committing a "wrong" action, the results produced are harmful.

The flaw in this reasoning is that someone committing an action that is viewed as perfectly fine, with bad intentions, that produces a harmful result is viewed as less wrong (or possibly even perfectly fine) than a harmful result produced by good intentions.

That's a real problem in society. People do things they know will hurt people or put them at risk, but those actions are considered acceptable in and of themselves, so the person feels ethically clear. I'm sure a lot of bankers and investment people used this rationale to justify their own behaviour in the last few years.

PS. "The end justifies the means" is horrendously misinterpreted by its critics. Most people feel that it means "a wonderful outcome justifies any horrible methods used to achieve it". But if horrible methods were used to achieve it, then the negative consequences of those horrible methods would be part of the outcome, so it would not be a wonderful outcome. Really, this gross misinterpretation is just an intellectual dodge employed by people who wish to disavow responsibilities for the outcomes of their actions, no matter how predictable.

[Darth Wong]

In all due fairness it is partially because villians who think they are doing the right thing are more interesting that complete monsters. After all, it done well, it bring up an important question- How do you know they are wrong?

Plus it's pretty realistic. I don't doubt many Nazis (for example) genuinely believed they were doing the right thing.

To my knowledge (talks to my grandparents) most were totally unaware of the cruelty.

That's a load of self-serving whitewashing historical revisionist bullshit. Everyone in Germany, and even outside Germany, knew that the Jews were being treated like shit. Not all of them knew they were actually being marched into gas chambers, but they knew they were being treated like shit, and they were OK with that. Hell, Hitler became a prominent national politician in the first place by fanning the flames of anti-semitism.

[Aaron]

That's a load of self-serving whitewashing historical revisionist bullshit. Everyone in Germany, and even outside Germany, knew that the Jews were being treated like shit. Not all of them knew they were actually being marched into gas chambers, but they knew they were being treated like shit, and they were OK with that. Hell, Hitler became a prominent national politician in the first place by fanning the flames of anti-semitism.

I find it rather odd that anyone of that generation can claim that with a straight face. My grandmother is from Amsterdam, which was of course occupied by the Germans and it didn't take long for them to start rounding up Jews. The Resistance even tried to stop them.

She's said on many occasions that before the war they knew Hitler was a nutjob. I'm not sure if the Dutch knew they were being executed but they weren't in the dark about mistreatment and such. And if the Dutch knew, I find it hard to believe the Germans didn't.

[Dominus Atheos]

This is a recent picture, and this is currently the only "stupid thing said on Fox" thread active right now, so I figured I'd post it here.



Notice the country between Syria and Iran.

[Samuel]

The image is not working on my computer.

[Dominus Atheos]

Let's try it again:



Source

[Thanas]

To my knowledge (talks to my grandparents) most were totally unaware of the cruelty.

That's a load of self-serving whitewashing historical revisionist bullshit. Everyone in Germany, and even outside Germany, knew that the Jews were being treated like shit. Not all of them knew they were actually being marched into gas chambers, but they knew they were being treated like shit, and they were OK with that. Hell, Hitler became a prominent national politician in the first place by fanning the flames of anti-semitism.

I think he means that they were unaware that what they did was wrong as they believed the Jews deserved it. Hence, them rationalising it. I believe he meant to write "unaware of the cruelty (of their actions)".

He expressed himself poorly, but that is most likely a consequence of german/english translation. If I translate it straight into german, it would mean the above.

[Patrick Degan]

Let's try it again:



Source

And once more, the comedy just writes itself. How typically clueless of FoxNoise.

[Samuel]

I think he means that they were unaware that what they did was wrong as they believed the Jews deserved it. Hence, them rationalising it. I believe he meant to write "unaware of the cruelty (of their actions)".

Er... "they were evil" has entirely different connotations than "they didn't know what was happening". After all, what would we call blatantly discriminating and removing people from public life and into prisons because of their ethnicity, sexuality, politics, etc? They probably were okay with it for a simple reason- it wasn't happening to them.

And once more, the comedy just writes itself. How typically clueless of FoxNoise.

You'd think the people who "support our troops" would bother to learn where our troops have been for the past 6 years.

[Thanas]

I think he means that they were unaware that what they did was wrong as they believed the Jews deserved it. Hence, them rationalising it. I believe he meant to write "unaware of the cruelty (of their actions)".

Er... "they were evil" has entirely different connotations than "they didn't know what was happening". After all, what would we call blatantly discriminating and removing people from public life and into prisons because of their ethnicity, sexuality, politics, etc? They probably were okay with it for a simple reason- it wasn't happening to them.

You misunderstand. Let's try this again:

They failed to see that their actions were cruel as the jews deserved it in their opinion.

[Lord MJ]

He's done something accidental. That's what the word "accident" is for.

Yeah that's right. Except for the fact that most people would not view it as an accident if the action is considered wrong. What thought process they use to define the act wrong is anyone's guess.

That's a real problem in society. People do things they know will hurt people or put them at risk, but those actions are considered acceptable in and of themselves, so the person feels ethically clear. I'm sure a lot of bankers and investment people used this rationale to justify their own behaviour in the last few years.

I find that most people have one of three methods of determining right from wrong. All three of which, the results of the actions are irrelevant.

1. An action is wrong if it is considered wrong, if not then there is nothing wrong with it.
2. If an action is something someone has the right to do, then there is nothing wrong with it.
3. If an action is in the best interests of self, then there is nothing wrong with it.

The whole notion that results are what make actions wrong is offensive to some people, and I know this from personal experience.

[Lord MJ]

I think he means that they were unaware that what they did was wrong as they believed the Jews deserved it. Hence, them rationalising it. I believe he meant to write "unaware of the cruelty (of their actions)".

Er... "they were evil" has entirely different connotations than "they didn't know what was happening". After all, what would we call blatantly discriminating and removing people from public life and into prisons because of their ethnicity, sexuality, politics, etc? They probably were okay with it for a simple reason- it wasn't happening to them.

You misunderstand. Let's try this again:

They failed to see that their actions were cruel as the jews deserved it in their opinion.

I'll have to re-read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" but from what I recall the basic gist of it is that the German's were aware of the genocide and they thought it was perfectly justified. I had a German student in one of my MBA classes once, she said that the people were forced to commit atrocities against Jews against their will by the Nazis. I declined to get into a discussion about "Hitler's Willing Executioners" that time around, it might have gotten ugly if I had.

[LaCroix]

Thank you thanas. Actually that's what I ment.

First, they were in Austria, on the country. Far away from the big german cities.

The knew that the conditions in the work camps weren't rosy, but then, the rest of the public wasn't having a party, neither, in those harsh times. They knew the jews were worked very hard in those camps, but they did not know the whole extent of that cruelity. They actually thought that the treatment was very harsh, but deserved. That most of them went straight into the gas chambers was not known widly. They were told and believed that there was some conspiracy, and those arrested were traitors or did some financial crimes and deserved punishment. That most of them were just ordinary people, they didn' know. So they weren't aware that they were acting cruel to anybody.

I do not believe City-dwellers were unaware of the atrocities, but most of the rural population did never even meet a jew, and only knew what was told in the "Wochenschau", so they were mostly in the dark. Rumors were there, but thought of as conspiracy theories and allied propaganda.