The OotS thread

[Crossroads Inc.]

Not to mention a "somewhat" full ist of Xylons spells, can anyone make out those at the bottom that seem to be 10th level ?

[Crazedwraith]

I love that. I mean O-Chul's method of finding that out? Try to escape and try to remember what you get zapped with. 'One saving throw at a time' indeed.

[Sriad]

Not to mention a "somewhat" full ist of Xylons spells, can anyone make out those at the bottom that seem to be 10th level ?

Well, the easy two are "Cloister" and "Superb Dispelling", which we've already seen. The remaining one is "Epic Mass [something]" or "Epic Mage Armor".

Due to the mechanics of epic spells iirc, it's possible though unlikely that Xylon could have more than those three. My guess is that he's been developing Epic Mage Armor in response to his trouncing at the hands of the Azure City Paladin Ghost Swarm (plus Soon Kim).

On a more story-centric note, I'm happy Elan and Haley were honest with each other about what they've been up to during their time apart... and that Elan lamented the violation of bardic tradition said disclosure entailed.

[Imperial Overlord]

Not to mention a "somewhat" full ist of Xylons spells, can anyone make out those at the bottom that seem to be 10th level ?

Well, the easy two are "Cloister" and "Superb Dispelling", which we've already seen. The remaining one is "Epic Mass [something]" or "Epic Mage Armor".

Due to the mechanics of epic spells iirc, it's possible though unlikely that Xylon could have more than those three. My guess is that he's been developing Epic Mage Armor in response to his trouncing at the hands of the Azure City Paladin Ghost Swarm (plus Soon Kim).

Actually, he can have a fuckload. It's unlikely that he can cast more than two or three in a day, but it costs gold and xp to develop them and he seems to have a lot of resources (he can certainly blow a ton of gold on magic items).

[Solauren]

Given the time and resources of an intelligent epic level character are practically infinite (especially if aging isn't a concerned), O'chul's list should be taken as a list of the Lich's FAVOURITE spells and items.

Hopefully, the Lich doesn't know the Genesis spell...

[The Yosemite Bear]

I see the elves have a magic radio guy....

I forgot which David Drake story had that too.

[avatarxprime]

O-Chul continues he run as one of the most awesome characters Rich has given us. Also, nice to see Thanh coming back into the picture. I've been wondering how he's been handling running the Resistance.

[Serafina]

Given the time and resources of an intelligent epic level character are practically infinite (especially if aging isn't a concerned), O'chul's list should be taken as a list of the Lich's FAVOURITE spells and items.

Hopefully, the Lich doesn't know the Genesis spell...

Wait, what did that one do?

Oh, and there are a lot of "unknown" entries on that list - i guess O'chúl blew his spellcraft rolls.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Given the time and resources of an intelligent epic level character are practically infinite (especially if aging isn't a concerned), O'chul's list should be taken as a list of the Lich's FAVOURITE spells and items.

Hopefully, the Lich doesn't know the Genesis spell...

Wait, what did that one do?

Genesis creates your own tiny moon sized planet/demiplane.

[Vehrec]

Given the time and resources of an intelligent epic level character are practically infinite (especially if aging isn't a concerned), O'chul's list should be taken as a list of the Lich's FAVOURITE spells and items.

Hopefully, the Lich doesn't know the Genesis spell...

While time and resources might as well be infinite for an epic level Lich, especially the non-PC kind, there is one extra dimension you fail to consider. Xykon is a sorcerer. He trades one kind of flexibility for another, and the sacrifice he makes is in spell choice. He can't quickly and easily switch out spells on his list, so if you see it on that list Roy was holding, it's probably going to be there the entire comic, taking up a slot that could be holding something else. Its part of the reason why I've never played one, because that is the kind of choice that screws me up. Fireball or haste? Teleport or Delayed Blast fireball? Meteor swarm or Prismatic Sphere? Do you go offensive? Defensive? Multitask? Whatever choices you make, there's sure to be a hole in any sorcerer's spell list. And if you know all the spells you can exploit that.

[The Defenestrator]

Whatever choices you make, there's sure to be a hole in any sorcerer's spell list. And if you know all the spells you can exploit that.

And since you only get bonus spells-per-day, not spells known, and that progression stops at level 20, they know that unless Xykon took the epic feat Spell Knowledge, he has 9 0-level spells, 5 each 1st and 2nd-level, 4 each 3rd-5th level, and 3 each 6th-9th level.

[Sriad]

Given the time and resources of an intelligent epic level character are practically infinite (especially if aging isn't a concerned), O'chul's list should be taken as a list of the Lich's FAVOURITE spells and items.

Hopefully, the Lich doesn't know the Genesis spell...

Wait, what did that one do?

Oh, and there are a lot of "unknown" entries on that list - i guess O'chúl blew his spellcraft rolls.

I think he just knows how many spells/level a sorcerer maxes out at, and Xykon didn't cast every spell he has in O'chul's presence.

The reason I think it's unlikely that Xykon has more epic spells is their substantial opportunity cost. Epic Mage Armor costs over 400,000 gold and 16,500 xp to develop, Superb Dispelling more than 500k gp and 20,000 xp... either of those are more than 1/2 a level's worth of xp. I never played much epic DnD so I don't know if there are many clever workarounds though.

[Imperial Overlord]

[

While time and resources might as well be infinite for an epic level Lich, especially the non-PC kind, there is one extra dimension you fail to consider. Xykon is a sorcerer. He trades one kind of flexibility for another, and the sacrifice he makes is in spell choice. He can't quickly and easily switch out spells on his list, so if you see it on that list Roy was holding, it's probably going to be there the entire comic, taking up a slot that could be holding something else. Its part of the reason why I've never played one, because that is the kind of choice that screws me up. Fireball or haste? Teleport or Delayed Blast fireball? Meteor swarm or Prismatic Sphere? Do you go offensive? Defensive? Multitask? Whatever choices you make, there's sure to be a hole in any sorcerer's spell list. And if you know all the spells you can exploit that.

When it comes to Epic Spells, sorcerers are more flexible than wizards. Only the (massive) xp and gp cost apply.

Epic Spells Sidebar: The way they work is like this: once you spend the shit ton of gold and xp necessary to develop them (there are a few ways of somewhat lightening the cost) you know them. If you can cast epic spells, you can cast 1/day per 10 ranks in the appropriate Knowledge (Arcana, Religion, or Nature depending on class). Classes that prepare spells still have to prepare their epic spells off their spells known list, which is the epic spells they've spent a metric shit ton to develop. Spontaneous casters can spontaneously cast any epic spell they know. In this case sorcerers are more flexible than wizards, with an equivalent list of known spells. The trade off is that casting epic spells requires a successful Spellcraft check and that's an Intelligence based skill.

[The Defenestrator]

671 is up.

A bunch of people are going to be glad that Celia is leaving now.

I'm actually not clear on whether or not the last book has ended and we're starting Book 5 now.

[dragon]

I like the comment that Bel made abount the cannon and the pally agreed.

[Solauren]

You know, just because Xykon is called a sorcerer, it doesn't mean he is one.

It's not exactly easy for a Sorcerer to become a Lich you know.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out Xykon was a wizard that pretended to be a Lich (not at all that hard with the right use of spell slots and magic items), to get people to lower their guard.

You know 'okay, we've got a pretty good idea of what spells the sorcerer knows', and set up defenses for them.

And then BAM, he changes his spells to catch them off guard.

[Soldier of Entropy]

I like the comment that Bel made abount the cannon and the pally agreed.

I believe that his response was scarcastic, actually...

You know, just because Xykon is called a sorcerer, it doesn't mean he is one.

It's not exactly easy for a Sorcerer to become a Lich you know.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out Xykon was a wizard that pretended to be a Lich (not at all that hard with the right use of spell slots and magic items), to get people to lower their guard.

You know 'okay, we've got a pretty good idea of what spells the sorcerer knows', and set up defenses for them.

And then BAM, he changes his spells to catch them off guard.

That seems pretty Deux Ex Machina to me... there hasn't been any indicaton as such. Furthermore, he comes off as not being too intelligent, a major handicap for a wizard, while on the other hand, he seems to have plenty of charisma.

Also, what spells/items could imitate lichdom, and why would this appear more likely than him being a wizard who actually is a lich?

Come to think of it, wasn't the transformation to lichdom actually seen in Start of Darkness? I never read it, but that's the impression I got.

[Solauren]

Whoops. That should have read Wizards that pretends to be a SORCERER.

[Crazedwraith]

What I don't get is that everyone seems to assume that the order can take Xykon. With the exception of the first fight with Roy, the only think that really got close to doing him in was the army of ghost paladins and there was a good half a hundred of them. Not just six. Are they just kidding themselves? Or are they assuming that story telling conventions mean that the main character will always prevail over the bad guy?

[Solauren]

I've always been assuming that the final Order vs Lich fight will be at the very last gate, and end with them and all the other players alive at that point (including the Archfiends V made a deal with) having to work together to destroy the Snarl.

Cliche, but still fun.

[Bedlam]

You know, just because Xykon is called a sorcerer, it doesn't mean he is one.

It's not exactly easy for a Sorcerer to become a Lich you know.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out Xykon was a wizard that pretended to be a Lich (not at all that hard with the right use of spell slots and magic items), to get people to lower their guard.

You know 'okay, we've got a pretty good idea of what spells the sorcerer knows', and set up defenses for them.

And then BAM, he changes his spells to catch them off guard.

Start of Darkness makes this very unlikely Xykon refers to himself as a sorcerer and it brings up several times that Wizards think Sorcerer's are inferiour and Xykon is partually out to proove them wrong.

Also covers how Xykon becomes a lich and its with alot of help from Red Cloak.

[Sriad]

You know, just because Xykon is called a sorcerer, it doesn't mean he is one.

It's not exactly easy for a Sorcerer to become a Lich you know.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out Xykon was a wizard that pretended to be a Lich (not at all that hard with the right use of spell slots and magic items), to get people to lower their guard.

You know 'okay, we've got a pretty good idea of what spells the sorcerer knows', and set up defenses for them.

And then BAM, he changes his spells to catch them off guard.

Start of Darkness makes this very unlikely Xykon refers to himself as a sorcerer and it brings up several times that Wizards think Sorcerer's are inferiour and Xykon is partually out to proove them wrong.

Also covers how Xykon becomes a lich and its with alot of help from Red Cloak.

Yea, Redcloak performed the entire ritual (Xykon didn't have spellcasting abilities at the time) in the middle of Start of Darkness. Also, Xykon casts spells (extremely) spontaneously. The odds of a wizard preparing for an epic duel and thinking "Welp, the only level 9 spell I need today is Energy Drain!" is vanishingly remote.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

There were a few jokes early in Start of Darkness (dealing with Xykon's childhood and adolescence) based entirely around Sorcerers, too. Really, that book alone makes it entirely impossible for Xykon to be a Wizard without a massive retcon.

[Rogue 9]

I peeked my head into their forums and let us just say it is a bit lacking in certain regards.

Oh, tell me about it. A worse Miss Manners board I have never posted on. And today their chief moderator announced that they'll be instituting a rule against parodying their censorship.

And Xykon is, beyond question, a sorcerer. He has open contempt for wizards, and it is made clear at various points that he is not one. For one thing, a wizard would be considerably more intelligent.

[Crom]

That's something that confuses me. Xykon has proven to be very clever on occasion, more clever than I would think a charisma-based character would be (given Elan as an example). He seems to be very knowledgeable and canny, just easily distracted.