[O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Guardsman Bass
Cowardly Codfish
Posts: 9281
Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Guardsman Bass »

ThomasP wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:If it's so horrible to get health-care under HMO conditions, then why is it tolerable that millions of Americans use HMOs right now? Or is it just tolerable because the writer himself doesn't use one, and doesn't want to be forced to live like the people who do?
An e-acquaintance, who's strongly American-style Libertarian (which will become obvious), was raging about this plan just this week.

According to him, it boils down to the latter case. He's got a good job and good insurance, so of course he doesn't see the need for any change. Paraphrasing, "how is reducing options and rationing care going to help anything, just to provide coverage to the minority that can't afford it?"
It probably also has a bit of "it could never happen to me" element as well. Private health insurance seems to have become extremely difficult to touch in the current health care debate (i.e., there isn't a loud voice out there saying "Hey, the insured aren't that safe when half of all bankruptcies arise from medical costs, and more than three-quarters of those people had insurance at the time of incurring those costs), but it's certainly no guarantee of safety.
He actually conceded that basic care, things like the flu or emergency services, would be handled better by a universal public system; the kicker was that he might have to wait a few months for something non-life threatening like shoulder surgery.
That tends to be one of the sticking points - they don't like the idea of having to wait when they may or may not be able to simply buy their way to the front of the line (speaking of wait times, does anyone have access to a list of American wait times for treatments?).
So, basically, his argument comes down to screw everybody that's not in my position, I gots mine and want to keep it that way.
People tend to be rather risk-averse, weighing things they might lose more heavily than what they might gain.

A sensible strategy for reaching universal health care would have recognized this, though, and targeted their public campaign into pointing out that the insured aren't safe, that this isn't all about simply extending coverage to everyone (it's about getting meaningful coverage for everyone). But I don't see that being done outside of the small cadre of vocal single-payer supporters - most of the mainstream health care reform arguments are all about "protecting the uninsured", which allows the forces of the status quo to raise the false question of "Do you want to sacrifice your health care, which is of course the Best in the WorldTM, so that a bunch of poor *cough*illegal immigrants* can get care?"
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard


"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12269
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Surlethe »

Darth Wong wrote:That's why they're pushing this Shona Holmes story so hard. She is peddling a story where she was put on a six month waiting list for life-saving surgery, when in fact every doctor she consulted said it was not life-threatening. She kept shopping around until she found a doctor willing to agree with her self-diagnosis and charge her $100,000 for her surgery (she is currently suing the province for this money; I hope she loses), and now she's being touted to support the "socialized health care will kill you" story. It's unvarnished bullshit.
The article said she mortgaged her house to fly to Arizona and get the cyst removed. On "gut instinct". How fucking retarded do you have to be to take out a $100,000 loan on your house to get your self-diagnosis taken care of just because you're unjustifably afraid that if you wait six three months you'll die? Not the brightest bulb in the house, that woman.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by PeZook »

ThomasP wrote: He actually conceded that basic care, things like the flu or emergency services, would be handled better by a universal public system; the kicker was that he might have to wait a few months for something non-life threatening like shoulder surgery.

So, basically, his argument comes down to screw everybody that's not in my position, I gots mine and want to keep it that way.
Why do these people keep assuming that minimum coverage standards mean that they won't be able to pay more to get their insurance policy upgraded?

It's like that in every single debate about health care: free-market drones always assume that introducing a public health care system means banning the private health industry.

News flash: you can get prompt care anywhere in the world if you pay through the nose for it. It's always been a massively profitable business, and always will be.

On another note, I'm glad to hear Obama's plan has a list of guaranteed medical procedures that insurance companies will be forced to cover. This is really a big step in the right direction, despite all the other weirdness included in this bill.

All you guys need to do now is ban co-pays and rescission, and you will have a health care system slowly approaching actual civilized nations :D
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
KroLazuxy_87
Padawan Learner
Posts: 196
Joined: 2009-06-11 10:35pm
Location: Indiana, Pennsylvania

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by KroLazuxy_87 »

I haven't noticed too much complaining about health care reform from people who actually have health issues. Most of the time the people I see so against it haven't ever had to see a doctor regularly for an extended period of time.

Separately, doesn't much(I'll concede not all, but certainly a vast majority) of the quality of the health care depend on the doctors, nurses, and hospital administration staff themselves? Not who's footing the bill?
To criticize a person for their race is manifestly irrational and ridiculous, but to criticize their religion, that is a right. That is a freedom. The freedom to criticize ideas, any ideas - even if they are sincerely held beliefs - is one of the fundamental freedoms of society. A law which attempts to say you can criticize and ridicule ideas as long as they are not religious ideas is a very peculiar law indeed. -Rowan Atkinson
Cystic Fibrosis Foundation
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Patrick Degan »

PeZook wrote:Why do these people keep assuming that minimum coverage standards mean that they won't be able to pay more to get their insurance policy upgraded?

It's like that in every single debate about health care: free-market drones always assume that introducing a public health care system means banning the private health industry.
Things are so simple in Black/White Fallacy-World, aren't they? Of course, the whole thing is a fundamentally dishonest dodge to demonise the very concept of public healthcare. Back in the 90s, it was Clinton about to "take over 1/7th of the entire U.S. economy" by offering healthcare reform.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
Rye
To Mega Therion
Posts: 12493
Joined: 2003-03-08 07:48am
Location: Uighur, please!

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Rye »

Why is the freedom to choose a doctor so important? Sooner or later people might realise that "choice" isn't necessary or even particularly desirable in some things. Let's say you cut your arm up when the wind blows a glass door at you, you're going to rush to the ER, splurting blood and then say "no, that guy's not my type" as doctors are passed on a conveyor belt? Additionally, here in socialist land, you can ask for a different doctor if need be, or transfer to a different surgery or whatever.
EBC|Fucking Metal|Artist|Androgynous Sexfiend|Gozer Kvltist|
Listen to my music! http://www.soundclick.com/nihilanth
"America is, now, the most powerful and economically prosperous nation in the country." - Master of Ossus
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by General Zod »

Rye wrote:Why is the freedom to choose a doctor so important? Sooner or later people might realise that "choice" isn't necessary or even particularly desirable in some things. Let's say you cut your arm up when the wind blows a glass door at you, you're going to rush to the ER, splurting blood and then say "no, that guy's not my type" as doctors are passed on a conveyor belt? Additionally, here in socialist land, you can ask for a different doctor if need be, or transfer to a different surgery or whatever.
Unfortunately here a lot of GPs tend to be somewhat useless, so you want to be able to switch if you get stuck with a quack, and some assclowns have religious hangups and want a Doctor who's the same religion as them. Though the idea that you won't be able to choose who your Doctor is completely asinine and ludicrous. You're already limited in a lot of cases by existing insurance with who is in your provider's network, but most of the time you still have a good deal to choose from and you can even submit a practitioner to be included in your network.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
Dahak
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7292
Joined: 2002-10-29 12:08pm
Location: Admiralty House, Landing, Manticore
Contact:

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Dahak »

There are some special programs around here where you have to first go to your GP, and he then forwards you to a specialist, if need be. For this, the patients get some bonuses. This was done to reduce cost for specialists, as a lot of people go directly to the specialist they feel is right for the problem, even if it's just something for which no specialist is needed.
Image
Great Dolphin Conspiracy - Chatter box
"Implications: we have been intercepted deliberately by a means unknown, for a purpose unknown, and transferred to a place unknown by a form of intelligence unknown. Apart from the unknown, everything is obvious." ZORAC
GALE Force Euro Wimp
Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
Image
User avatar
SCRawl
Has a bad feeling about this.
Posts: 4191
Joined: 2002-12-24 03:11pm
Location: Burlington, Canada

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by SCRawl »

Dahak wrote:There are some special programs around here where you have to first go to your GP, and he then forwards you to a specialist, if need be.
That's pretty much how it works in Canada, at least in my experience. The GP is better qualified to assess the necessity of a specialist's opinion, and is therefore required to make the referral. Specialists do not, in general, take patients without a referral.
73% of all statistics are made up, including this one.

I'm waiting as fast as I can.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Darth Wong »

SCRawl wrote:
Dahak wrote:There are some special programs around here where you have to first go to your GP, and he then forwards you to a specialist, if need be.
That's pretty much how it works in Canada, at least in my experience. The GP is better qualified to assess the necessity of a specialist's opinion, and is therefore required to make the referral. Specialists do not, in general, take patients without a referral.
In order to go to a specialist, you would need to know what you need him for. This in turn requires that you have done some kind of self-diagnosis, and it would be a really bad idea to encourage that kind of behaviour. Internet self-diagnosis is already a virtual epidemic.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Superboy
Padawan Learner
Posts: 294
Joined: 2005-01-21 09:09pm

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Superboy »

Some specialists in Canada will allow you to make an appointment without a referral from a GP, you usually just have to wait longer than if your GP made the appointment for you. I think it's the specialists choice, not something that the government mandates.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Darth Wong »

Superboy wrote:Some specialists in Canada will allow you to make an appointment without a referral from a GP, you usually just have to wait longer than if your GP made the appointment for you. I think it's the specialists choice, not something that the government mandates.
True. I went to the specialist Shouldice Clinic without a referral from my doctor. But that seems to be the exception rather than the rule. If you call up a dermatologist, you will probably be told that you should get a referral from a doctor.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Darth Wong »

OK, here's the basic terms of the insurance policy that we Ontario residents are stuck with:

1) You are guaranteed coverage for life, regardless of what conditions you acquire.
2) It is impossible for your policy to be rescinded.
3) There is no lifetime benefits cap.
4) The co-pay is $0.00.
5) The cost is $350 per person per month (based on division of the $40 billion/yr OHIP health care budget by the 10M population).

How much would it cost to get a policy with those terms from a US insurer?
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Arthur_Tuxedo
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5637
Joined: 2002-07-23 03:28am
Location: San Francisco, California

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

Even the $350 / month is an overstatement when comparing to American plans, since we already pay for Medicare. $737 billion 2009 Medicare budget / 300 million Americans = $204.72 per month for coverage not nearly as generous and that most of us can't use for decades. Yay capitalism!
"I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and was in bed before the room was dark." - Muhammad Ali

"Dating is not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a heart-pounding, stomach-wrenching, gut-churning exercise in pitting your fear of rejection and public humiliation against your desire to find a mate. Enjoy." - Darth Wong
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Knife »

I've been writing a paper about this, comparing European and American healthcare structures. Anyway, if you look at it from how much we pay; average cost of a family policy (paid by both a employer and the employee combined) is roughly 13k a year. Now, Americans pay that out of pocket, their taxes go to other things. Europeans get theirs through taxes and by looking around and average tax rate is ~43% while the highest in the US is 35%.

Bear with me here; tax an average salary (median anyway) for both with the tax rates, and the European pays 15,750 and the American pays 12,250. For the 'high tax rate' Europeans have, they pay an average of 3,500 bucks more in taxes and get among other things, universal healthcare. Or if you take it out of the 13k an average family policy actually costs in America, we pay 10k dollars more per family than a Eurpean family by paying private insurance rather than government for it.

It's a gross and simple example, but very eye opening to plug an average salary into both the US and European tax rates and compare it to what we pay for healthcare.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
bdh
Redshirt
Posts: 7
Joined: 2006-07-16 11:49pm

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by bdh »

Uh, that's called "being uninsured". The whole point of insurance is risk pooling so that you don't pay your real health-care costs. Risk pooling does, by nature, smooth over inconsistencies in the population.
That's a far too overly simplistic view of "risk pooling."

Paying the "true cost" of your health care has less to do with the covering your actual insurance costs as it does paying in proportion to your risk.

Admittedly, paying in proportion to one's risk can be unjust since people with previous conditions have 100% risk, so government intervention is necessary if our goal is to provide adequate health care to the already sick. Nevertheless, lots of people engage in behaviors which increase their risks, and the government ought to account for these things in order to manage costs.

For example, charging higher premiums to smokers and the obese not only accounts for the financial cost of their increased risk, but also provides further disincentives to smoke or not exercise, further reducing the cost to society.
It's a gross and simple example, but very eye opening to plug an average salary into both the US and European tax rates and compare it to what we pay for healthcare.
That may be fine, but do you have any way of quantifying the value of immediate care versus delayed care (as sometimes happen in a universal system). An injured person waiting for surgery is bound to be less less productive than a person given immediate care due to the lag time in treatment.

Can you also quantify the costs associated with the restriction of care (as in the denial of treatment due to expense) which doesn't always happen in the American System (though some plans of clauses preventing extremely expensive treatment).

Can you also quantify a patients 'peace of mind;' the premium a patient pays to an experience doctor who they believe is less likely to commit a medical error?

The only costs reduced which, at least in my limited ability to understand, that are truly accounted for in a single payer system are the costs associated with preventative care. Preventing emergency room visits would undoubtedly save hospitals and patients a fortune

Otherwise, health care savings from other countries seem somewhat dubious since its too difficult to quantify the quality of care and the quality of life of the patients.
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by PeZook »

Otherwise, health care savings from other countries seem somewhat dubious since its too difficult to quantify the quality of care and the quality of life of the patients.
No, it's actually rather easy. Just compare the spending and results achieved: countries with universal health care invariably spend less money on it and have higher life expectancy than the US. Wringing over "delayed care versus immediate care" and "freedom to chose" and all the other buzzwords is meaningless.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
Guardsman Bass
Cowardly Codfish
Posts: 9281
Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Guardsman Bass »

PeZook wrote:
Otherwise, health care savings from other countries seem somewhat dubious since its too difficult to quantify the quality of care and the quality of life of the patients.
No, it's actually rather easy. Just compare the spending and results achieved: countries with universal health care invariably spend less money on it and have higher life expectancy than the US. Wringing over "delayed care versus immediate care" and "freedom to chose" and all the other buzzwords is meaningless.
It's better to compare things like treatment outcomes, since non-medical factors can severely affect life expectancy (in the US's case, we have a very high rate of car accidents, among accidents in general).
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard


"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Samuel »

It's better to compare things like treatment outcomes,
That ignores people who can't get health care or who have to put it off and only get emergency care and no preventative care.
(in the US's case, we have a very high rate of car accidents, among accidents in general).
We do? No other country compares? Wouldn't Australia be similar to the US?

Note that a way to avoid this is to compare infant mortality as babies are unlikely to have car accidents as a major risk factor.
User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10895
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Vendetta »

Guardsman Bass wrote: That tends to be one of the sticking points - they don't like the idea of having to wait when they may or may not be able to simply buy their way to the front of the line (speaking of wait times, does anyone have access to a list of American wait times for treatments?).
Image
User avatar
Serafina
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5246
Joined: 2009-01-07 05:37pm
Location: Germany

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Serafina »

Samuel wrote:
It's better to compare things like treatment outcomes,
That ignores people who can't get health care or who have to put it off and only get emergency care and no preventative care.
Well, there is a simple solution to that: People who receive no treatment are taken into the statistic.
Lets say you compare the outcome of a life-saving treatment. Everyone who does not receive it is treated as dead (which he most likely will be) - and this influences the statistic.

Of course, comparing treatment outcomes is way more difficult than comparing costs or life expectancy.

Oh, and about non-medical factors: There are some, but you will have to point out something with a bigger impact than car accidents (or show that there is a gross difference between US and european/canadian car accidents). And if it is about smoking, or eating - those ARE medical factors.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Knife »

bdh wrote:
It's a gross and simple example, but very eye opening to plug an average salary into both the US and European tax rates and compare it to what we pay for healthcare.
That may be fine, but do you have any way of quantifying the value of immediate care versus delayed care (as sometimes happen in a universal system). An injured person waiting for surgery is bound to be less less productive than a person given immediate care due to the lag time in treatment.
What a load of shit. Triage dictates who see's whom in an emergency situation. Out side of that, money decides who see's who quickly. Even then, there is plenty of 'wait time' in any healthcare system. This sudden interest in how long people wait for shit is dishonest. In the almighty US, normal people wait weeks to see their specialist and then get schedualed for another appointment in a month or so. Unless the surgery or treatment is life saving, people wait all the damn time. Unless you can actually afford your own gold plated insurance or a concierge doctor.
Can you also quantify the costs associated with the restriction of care (as in the denial of treatment due to expense) which doesn't always happen in the American System (though some plans of clauses preventing extremely expensive treatment).
Yes, we still spend more on medical insurance even with the insurance companies being able to deny treatment, where Europe spends less and guarantee's coverage and treatment.
Can you also quantify a patients 'peace of mind;' the premium a patient pays to an experience doctor who they believe is less likely to commit a medical error?
Again, hogwash. Most people do not vet their doctors besides making sure they are part of their insurance plan. Personality might play into it too. The only time I've ever heard of people shopping for doctors is if they are looking for a specialist for a particular issue (cardio, cancer, etc...) or they are shopping for a diagnosis they want (pill heads or hypochondriac).
The only costs reduced which, at least in my limited ability to understand, that are truly accounted for in a single payer system are the costs associated with preventative care. Preventing emergency room visits would undoubtedly save hospitals and patients a fortune
And you, the insurance premium payer who foots the bill for them along with you the tax payer which subsidizes that.
Otherwise, health care savings from other countries seem somewhat dubious since its too difficult to quantify the quality of care and the quality of life of the patients.
Bull poop! You can start off by seeing what we have and how much we pay for it and compare it with someone else. Which is what my simple example did. We pay more for less, a lot more for a lot less. Where else in American Culture is that the norm? We like More and pay Less, not the other way around.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Broomstick »

Oh, dear... do I really want to take the time to wade into this on my day off? Hmm... yeah, OK, I'll do it.

(For those of you who don't remember or weren't here last time I waded into the fray, I worked 13 years for Blue Cross Blue Shield. I also have a disabled spouse and a mother with a life-long cardiovascular problem, so I've been on both sides of the fence when it comes to health care insurance.)
1. Freedom to choose what's in your plan

The bills in both houses require that Americans purchase insurance through "qualified" plans offered by health-care "exchanges" that would be set up in each state. The rub is that the plans can't really compete based on what they offer. The reason: The federal government will impose a minimum list of benefits that each plan is required to offer.
This statement ignores two facts:

1) The vast majority of insured Americans do NOT, in fact, "choose what's in their plan". Their employer chooses, and they're stuck with that "choice". If they are very lucky the employer might give them 3-5 options, but the fact is, they pick from the menu the employer offers. If the employer offers only one choice that's it - that's what you get.
Today, many states require these "standard benefits packages" -- and they're a major cause for the rise in health-care costs. Every group, from chiropractors to alcohol-abuse counselors, do lobbying to get included. Connecticut, for example, requires reimbursement for hair transplants, hearing aids, and in vitro fertilization.
And why shouldn't hearing aids be covered?

Hair transplants and in vitro fertilization I have issues with. However, you have to ask - what limits (if any) are on these services? Is it hair transplants for normal male-pattern baldness or hair transplants for burn and trauma victims? If the latter, it's more like mandated breast reconstruction for cancer patients than toupee replacement. I am personally opposed to public funding of assisted reproduction, but if that is what it takes to get everybody covered by real health insurance I can live with a compromise. There WILL have to be compromise to get this done.
The Senate bill would require coverage for prescription drugs, mental-health benefits, and substance-abuse services.
These are somehow bad things? How so? This is already required by some states! Why wouldn't we cover prescription drugs, mental-health benefits, and substance-abuse treatment? It's like bitching we cover broken legs!
It also requires policies to insure "children" until the age of 26.
A damn good idea, too, as that is one of the demographics most prone to accidental injuries.
That's just the starting list. The bills would allow the Department of Health and Human Services to add to the list of required benefits, based on recommendations from a committee of experts. Americans, therefore, wouldn't even know what's in their plans and what they're required to pay for, directly or indirectly, until after the bills become law.
And right now every damn state in the union can do the exact same thing - so how is this different? How do you think mandated coverage for various items happened?
As with the previous example, the Obama plan enshrines into federal law one of the worst features of state legislation: community rating. Eleven states, ranging from New York to Oregon, have some form of community rating. In its purest form, community rating requires that all patients pay the same rates for their level of coverage regardless of their age or medical condition.
And yet the insurance industry has not imploded. Know what? Some states require "community rating" for some other forms of insurance, too. Yet, the industry survives. Huh.
Americans with pre-existing conditions need subsidies under any plan, but community rating is a dubious way to bring fairness to health care. The reason is twofold: First, it forces young people, who typically have lower incomes than older workers, to pay far more than their actual cost, and gives older workers, who can afford to pay more, a big discount. The state laws gouging the young are a major reason so many of them have joined the ranks of uninsured.
Given that the young have the lowest premiums of anyone I'm not sure how you can argue they're getting "gouged". Or, if you do, then you have to admit everyone else is getting gouged worse.
Under the Senate plan, insurers would be barred from charging any more than twice as much for one patient vs. any other patient with the same coverage. So if a 20-year-old who costs just $800 a year to insure is forced to pay $2,500, a 62-year-old who costs $7,500 would pay no more than $5,000.
Uh, yeah... that's sort of how insurance works.
Second, the bills would ban insurers from charging differing premiums based on the health of their customers. Again, that's understandable for folks with diabetes or cancer. But the bills would bar rewarding people who pursue a healthy lifestyle of exercise or a cholesterol-conscious diet. That's hardly a formula for lower costs. It's as if car insurers had to charge the same rates to safe drivers as to chronic speeders with a history of accidents.
I'm old enough to remember when all men in the US were charged higher rates for car insurance than women. Why? Because men get in more car accidents. Then it was decided this was discriminatory and the practice was banned, auto insurance premiums no longer differ due to gender. Yet the auto insurance industry still survives.

It also plays into the assumptions that by 'living right" one can truly avoid chronic health problems. You know, my mom exercised daily (until she was physically no longer able to) and ate right - but she still had debilitating heart disease. Why? It was genetic - she was going to have heart disease no matter what she did. So, while pursuing a "healthy lifestyle" might have benefits for her, it did jack to keep her medical costs cheap. I have a sister who inherited the same condition. She is fanatical about exercise, healthy eating, taking her medications.... she still has heart disease. Granted, it's not as bad as mom's was at her age, not nearly so, but she's already cost money and there wasn't a damn thing she could do to prevent it. So this is just another way of saying "the sick/chronically ill must have done something wrong and deserve to be sick" just as so many conservatards think the poor deserve to be poor and should be punished for lack of money.
3. Freedom to choose high-deductible coverage

The bills threaten to eliminate the one part of the market truly driven by consumers spending their own money. That's what makes a market, and health care needs more of it, not less.
Let's ignore the fact that many people with a HDC/HSA were forced into it either because that's all their employer offered, or they were dumped into the "individual policy" market and that's all they could afford to buy. That's like saying everyone has the freedom to sleep in a cardboard box under the freeway overpass, not just the homeless.
Hundreds of companies now offer Health Savings Accounts to about 5 million employees. Those workers deposit tax-free money in the accounts and get a matching contribution from their employer. They can use the funds to buy a high-deductible plan -- say for major medical costs over $12,000. Preventive care is reimbursed, but patients pay all other routine doctor visits and tests with their own money from the HSA account. As a result, HSA users are far more cost-conscious than customers who are reimbursed for the majority of their care.
1) Remember - the employer chooses to offer a plan to the employees, the employees get no say. Therefore, it is eroneous to say these workers are "free" to choose a HDC/HSA or that they have a "choice".

2) The matching contribution from the employer is entirely voluntary. The employer is not obligated to do this, and in fact, more and more don't as a "cost saving" measure.

3) Most such plans I've seen didn't kick in until FAR past $12k. Granted, I was laid off two years ago and things might have changed, but clearly the author of this article is engaged in some biased reporting here.

4) HDC/HSA "customers" are more cost-concious because they have no choice - but they ALSO spend a shitload more time dealing with billing and, if they're smart, negotiating with providers to reduce their bills. Me, I came out of the Evil Insurance Empire and knew I could negotiate and I had a fuck of a hard time coping with it - it is ludicrous to think the average consumer, no matter their education and competence in other areas of life, is really equipped to handle this. Hell, a lot of people don't even know they can negotiate some of these costs!

The other aspect to the negotiating game is unspoken: if you are entirely without insurance, that is, have none at all, it is fairly common that you can bargain down to a 40-50% reduction in "retail" price on medical items. It's true, I've done it (even mentioned it in a few past threads). However, for many of those same providers, if you have ANY insurance at all, ANY, their policy requires them to charge you full retail price if you have an HDC/HSA. That means you could, potentially, be even worse off under an HDC/HSA than if you had no insurance at all - because with an HDC/HSA you are forced to not only pay a premium for insurance that won't kick in unless things are truly dire, but you ALSO are paying full retail for medical care, whereas with no insurance whatsoever you can often chop the prices in half AND there are charity programs open to you that no one with insurance has access to.
The bills seriously endanger the trend toward consumer-driven care in general.
This is code for "we can't force people to pay for whatever shit policy their employer decides to give them anymore".
By requiring minimum packages,
That, we must note, are ALREADY required by many states --
they would prevent patients from choosing stripped-down plans that cover only major medical expenses.
Which are a bad fucking idea in the first place and which many of those people are "choosing" ONLY because they have no alternative.
"The government could set extremely low deductibles that would eliminate HSAs," says John Goodman of the National Center for Policy Analysis, a free-market research group. "And they could do it after the bills are passed."
So fucking what? HDC/HSA's are new, less than 10 years old. The ONLY reason they have 5 million customers (that's what, a piffling 2.5% of the population compared to 1 in 6, or about 15%, having no insurance at all?) is because so many employers switched to them because of lower costs, thereby FORCING many of those 5 million into those plans!
The legislation divides the insured into two main groups, and those two groups are treated differently with respect to their current plans. The first are employees covered by the Employee Retirement Security Act of 1974. ERISA regulates companies that are self-insured, meaning they pay claims out of their cash flow, and don't have real insurance. Those are the GEs (GE, Fortune 500) and Time Warners (TWX, Fortune 500) and most other big companies.
That's because you need to be fucking big in order to self-insure - otherwise your risk pool isn't big enough.
The House bill states that employees covered by ERISA plans are "grandfathered." Under ERISA, the plans can do pretty much what they want -- they're exempt from standard packages and community rating and can reward employees for healthy lifestyles even in restrictive states.
That's actually largely true right now. On the other hand, those very companies frequently have relatively generous plans. Why? Because they have huge risk pools, which lowers the average cost per individual. Which, to my mind, is an argument to make a risk pool of 300 million people, but no one asks me how to run the country, do they?
The bill gives ERISA employers a five-year grace period when they can keep offering plans free from the restrictions of the "qualified" policies offered on the exchanges. But after five years, they would have to offer only approved plans, with the myriad rules we've already discussed. So for Americans in large corporations, "keeping your own plan" has a strict deadline. In five years, like it or not, you'll get dumped into the exchange. As we'll see, it could happen a lot earlier.
But let's gloss over the fact that the fucking Federal government even offers an HDC/HSA option! So... why assume the Feds hate the option so much?
The outlook is worse for the second group. It encompasses employees who aren't under ERISA but get actual insurance either on their own or through small businesses. After the legislation passes, all insurers that offer a wide range of plans to these employees will be forced to offer only "qualified" plans to new customers, via the exchanges.
This, of course, ignores the fact that insurance companies ALREADY have minimum requirements! And mandates!
The employees who got their coverage before the law goes into effect can keep their plans, but once again, there's a catch. If the plan changes in any way -- by altering co-pays, deductibles, or even switching coverage for this or that drug -- the employee must drop out and shop through the exchange. Since these plans generally change their policies every year, it's likely that millions of employees will lose their plans in 12 months.
Millions of employees lose their plans every damn year RIGHT NOW due to layoffs, their employer changing insurance providers, or dropping insurance coverage altogether. Where the fuck do people think 46 million uninsured people come from?
The Senate bill requires that Americans buying through the exchanges -- and as we've seen, that will soon be most Americans -- must get their care through something called "medical home." Medical home is similar to an HMO. You're assigned a primary care doctor, and the doctor controls your access to specialists. The primary care physicians will decide which services, like MRIs and other diagnostic scans, are best for you, and will decide when you really need to see a cardiologists or orthopedists.
Of course, let's just ignore the fact that even people with PPO's are limited to the list of doctors provided by their insurance company!

Let's also ignore that, under every HMO policy I've seen no one is "assigned" a doctor. You are given a LIST of doctors and you pick one. Even the heavily subsidized, not popular with doctors (due to low reimbursement) plan I'm on right now offers a LIST of doctors that we can choose from.
The bills do not specifically rule out fee-for-service plans as options to be offered through the exchanges. But remember, those plans -- if they exist -- would be barred from charging sick or elderly patients more than young and healthy ones. So patients would be inclined to game the system, staying in the HMO while they're healthy and switching to fee-for-service when they become seriously ill. "That would kill fee-for-service in a hurry," says Goodman.
1) Almost NO ONE has true fee-for-service any more - the author is attempting to conflate "fee-for-service" (FFS) with "perferred provider option" (PPO). FFS means ANY doc you choose the insurance company will pay for - ANY doc, ANYWHERE. PPO means "choose from this list we give you".

2) The health insurance industry screamed bloody murder when they were no longer permitted to deny coverage to anyone in Illinois. "Oh noes! We're doomed!" No, they weren't. Same shit for the charging the sick and elderly more - who, by the way, are the people least able to pay. Which is, of course, how they deny people coverage now. They simply raise the premiums to the point they're unaffordable. That's how my Other Half went from "uninsurable" to "insurable at $1,200 per month". Yeah, THAT was a big fucking help!
In reality, the flexible, employer-based plans that now dominate the landscape, and that Americans so cherish, could disappear far faster than the 5 year "grace period" that's barely being discussed.
And good riddance, I say - people have been eating cardboard and shit for so long they've forgotten what food tastes like. So to speak.
The best solution is to move to a let-freedom-ring regime of high deductibles, no community rating, no standard benefits, and cross-state shopping for bargains (another market-based reform that's strictly taboo in the bills). I'll propose my own solution in another piece soon on Fortune.com. For now, we suffer with a flawed health-care system, but we still have our Five Freedoms. Call them the Five Endangered Freedoms.
Except, of course, for those who have no health insurance at all, or who have no choice at all - the only thing they're free of is reliable health coverage.

I'll save my comments on other people's posts for my next post.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
bdh
Redshirt
Posts: 7
Joined: 2006-07-16 11:49pm

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by bdh »

What a load of shit. Triage dictates who see's whom in an emergency situation.
Did I even mention emergency situations? Thank you for putting words in my mouth.
Out side of that, money decides who see's who quickly. Even then, there is plenty of 'wait time' in any healthcare system. This sudden interest in how long people wait for shit is dishonest. In the almighty US, normal people wait weeks to see their specialist and then get schedualed for another appointment in a month or so. Unless the surgery or treatment is life saving, people wait all the damn time. Unless you can actually afford your own gold plated insurance or a concierge doctor.
'Wait time' is a very general term. In the United States, access to MRI's(and other kinds of expensive medical equipment) and certain kinds of emergency treatment are much much faster than in other countries (excluding Germany, which has the shortest wait times in general). Of course people always have to wait, but difference between surgery next week and next month can be very significant. Certainly it also cuts down on wait times since the US has more specialists than most countries per capita but also less people per capita seeking treatment because they don't have insurance.

In other instances, say Cancer treatment, time to see a specialist is comparable with other countries, but that's because the demand for cancer treatment is incredibly high.

To be fair, Canada and Britain are overly used as examples of why a single payer system leads to long waits, but, other countries, like Germany, of course don't necessarily have that problem.
Yes, we still spend more on medical insurance even with the insurance companies being able to deny treatment, where Europe spends less and guarantee's coverage and treatment.
That doesn't answer question.

I ask: "Whats the costs, savings comparison given that some(but not all) US insurers cover treatment for some diseases that many single payer systems do not."

You answer: "All US insurers can deny treatment for these diseases and it still costs more in the US"

Do you see how that doesn't answer the question? In order for any Single Payer system to work, there has to be some point at which treatment is denied because it is too expensive. For every cure, their is a cost.

Some insurance policies in the US cover treatments that are denied to people in other countries where they are thought too expensive. What is the premium Americans pay due to this? Or does it not exist?

'Treatment' isn't some all encompassing words. There are degrees of treatment and in some countries more is available than in others and the quality varies.
Again, hogwash. Most people do not vet their doctors besides making sure they are part of their insurance plan. Personality might play into it too. The only time I've ever heard of people shopping for doctors is if they are looking for a specialist for a particular issue (cardio, cancer, etc...) or they are shopping for a diagnosis they want (pill heads or hypochondriac).
I like how you both agree with me and disagree with me. You're wrong, unless its with a specialist, then people vet their doctors.

Personally I wouldn't trust someone with my life unless they had some references and at the very least looked up what medical school they went to.
Bull poop! You can start off by seeing what we have and how much we pay for it and compare it with someone else. Which is what my simple example did. We pay more for less, a lot more for a lot less. Where else in American Culture is that the norm? We like More and pay Less, not the other way around.
And you're analysis is a poor one since you didn't even deduct the payment contribution from the employer among my other mild criticisms.

I just find it very frustrating when people just gloss over little details while ignoring huge differences in culture and outcomes.
It also plays into the assumptions that by 'living right" one can truly avoid chronic health problems. You know, my mom exercised daily (until she was physically no longer able to) and ate right - but she still had debilitating heart disease. Why? It was genetic - she was going to have heart disease no matter what she did. So, while pursuing a "healthy lifestyle" might have benefits for her, it did jack to keep her medical costs cheap. I have a sister who inherited the same condition. She is fanatical about exercise, healthy eating, taking her medications.... she still has heart disease. Granted, it's not as bad as mom's was at her age, not nearly so, but she's already cost money and there wasn't a damn thing she could do to prevent it. So this is just another way of saying "the sick/chronically ill must have done something wrong and deserve to be sick" just as so many conservatards think the poor deserve to be poor and should be punished for lack of money.
That's nonsense. Regardless of your personal family history, insurance works on the grand scale. If we separated the population into two groups, the people who ate healthy foods and the people who ate unhealthy foods and then compared the groups you would find that while both groups had heart disease one group had a significantly reduced risk.

Reasonably, there should be some relationship between the risk you produce and the costs to you. While discriminating against someone for being a man in the case of car insurance is wrong (since they can't change being a man) in the same way it's wrong to discriminate against someone with a pre-existing condition, it's just to discriminate someone who's been in an accident (in the case of car insurance) in the same way it's just to charge higher health insurance premiums to a smoker.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: [O/E] Five freedoms you would lose under Obamacare

Post by Broomstick »

Darth Wong wrote:
1. Freedom to choose what's in your plan
How many Americans currently get to actually choose what's in their health insurance plan, unless they're rich?
Virtually none - the employer chooses, and that's only if the employer offers insurance coverage at all!

The self-employed have to find their own coverage, however, some of them have help. For example, some union tradesmen are independent contractors and thus self-employed, but can obtain insurance through their union - of course, then it's the union doing the choosing, it's still not the tradesman.

With my current, state-subsidized plan I was given a choice between United Healthcare and Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield. That one one plan offered by each. That's a pretty fucking limited choice, now isn't it? Not that I'm complaining (very much) - it's better than nothing, which is exactly what we had before.
Darth Wong wrote:
5. Freedom to choose your doctors
I like the way he complains that the system would set up groups like HMOs. Uh, don't a lot of Americans already get care through an HMO?
A substantial number, yes.
Is he just saying that if you're lucky enough to belong to the group which is too elite for HMOs, then you shouldn't be forced to live like the HMO people?
Yep.
If it's so horrible to get health-care under HMO conditions, then why is it tolerable that millions of Americans use HMOs right now?
La-la-la-la-I-CAN'T-HEAR-YOU!-la-la-la-la-la....

It's the FREE MARKET at work! Those people CHOSE to be in HMO's... oh, wait, they didn't... their employers chose it for them...
Or is it just tolerable because the writer himself doesn't use one, and doesn't want to be forced to live like the people who do?
Most likely this is also the case.
Cpl Kendall wrote:The bleating about "I need to be able to choose my doctor!" is both pathetic and amusing. WTF qualifies the average person to decide if their doc is good or terrible anyways?
This is particularly pathetic when you realize Americans don't choose their own doctors! They choose from a list provided by the insurance company. They pick one of a bunch of doctors already chosen by someone else!
The plan itself (assuming this article is in any way accurate) is pretty fucked up though, I thought the idea was to simplify things not turn health care into auto insurance.
Frankly, turning into something like auto insurance probably WOULD be an improvement. Which is fucking sad.
Darth Wong wrote:Most Americans don't realize what a mess their current system is because they never bother to read the fine print on their insurance policies. As far as they're concerned, the "health care system" in America boils down to whatever they personally have, and even for that, it's just the summary because they never read anything more than that.
How true. Even for insurance company employees.

I got a shitload of static the first time I asked to see a copy of the POLICY, not just the summary statement, at my former employer. Among other things, HR wanted to know WHY I wanted to see the actual policy instead of the summary. The truth is, I was getting a pilot's license and exclusions for general aviation accidents is quite common. I said I wanted to know for sure what was and wasn't covered and if what I was getting into wasn't covered by the company policy I was going to buy additional insurance to cover it (yes, I actually had the money to do that. In fact, I had even priced it out - $110 a per year the first year I looked into it for both medical and liability related to general aviation accidents whether passenger or pilot). Well, that finally got me a copy of the policy.

Know what I found out? (This is hysterical, really) They did, in fact, cover general aviation! They did every year I worked for them that it was a concern of mine (checked every year because, you know, policies can change). BUT - as of 2002 there would be NO coverage for ANY injury stemming from a terrorist attack! I pointed out how ludicrous this was - someone blows up a bomb on Michigan Avenue during work hours and I'm hit by flying window glass while sitting at my desk and you won't cover it, but if I crash an airplane you'll pay for any medical costs? WTF? Are you fucking kidding me? WHOSE idea was that?

Seemed someone had slipped that change in and Human Resources hadn't noticed. Remember, this IS the goddamned insurance company itself!.

Seems that clause had been passed around the entire BCBS system, too - which did not sit well at all with the Empire Blue Cross people, who, until September 11, 2001, had had their offices in the World Trade Center. THEIR medical costs for that day were paid for by the company insurance.... but if it happened again they'd be shit out of luck.

If I hadn't insisted on reading the real policy (said annoying habit having gotten to the point that in 2002 when I discovered this HR e-mailed me and said "since you're going to ask for it anyway, here's your copy") and I hadn't noticed that... I wonder how long it would have been until someone DID notice? This is how the insurance industry treats its own employees. Why the FUCK do we trust them?
Darth Wong wrote:
Superboy wrote:I don't really know much about the details of how American health care works, but I was a especially confused about this:
The primary care physicians will decide which services, like MRIs and other diagnostic scans, are best for you, and will decide when you really need to see a cardiologists or orthopedists.
Do any private plans currently allow you to get MRIs and other scans whenever you feel like it? Doesn't it already take a doctor saying that there is a good reason for it before you're insurance will cover it?
There is no such thing as an insurance company which allows you to self-diagnose, choose your own treatments, and reimburse you without questions.
Nor do any "imaging centers" or other places that do diagnostic testing accept the self-diagnosed walk-up patient. When I had to get some medical testing done while pursuing a job offer last year I had to find a doctor to write me a prescription to take such a test prior to getting the time of day from the testing facitlity. Forget the health insurance companies - the testing centers require you to go through a doctor.

You can approach any doctor you wish, of course, but many specialists will only take referrals.
Superboy wrote:Another question; why won't the new health care plan allow people to choose their own doctors? Not that it's really a major fault with the plan, but as a Canadian I've always been able to choose my doctor and I'm curious why any system would prevent that.
It's a scare tactic, by and large.

The only people in the US who have no choice in doctor are those living in remote areas with few or even no doctors. My college roommate when to live in one such area after her training in exchange for the government paying for part of her education. For seven years she and one other doctor were the only physicians within a 500 mile raidus. (That's 800 kilometers)
Superboy wrote:
This is how a triage system works, for fuck's sake. Very few people should actually die while waiting for life-saving care, because if you're close to death, you get moved to the front of the line
That's what always struck me as weird about the long-waiting-times argument that republicans are so fond of. The very nature of the triage system means that if you have to wait a long time for treatment, it's almost always because there are other people who need to be treated more urgently. The fact that republicans take issue with this seems to be a blatant confession that they believe they should be treated before those who can't afford it even if they don't need treatment as urgently. The selfishness doesn't surprise me, but the transparent way they argue about it on a national stage does.
It also ignores that fact that under the present system you already have waiting times. If I need to see the doc and I call for an appointment I usually have to wait at least a few days. I recall from my corporate days that my co-workers in HMO's often had to wait weeks to get an appointment. If you need to see a specialist you might have to wait weeks or even months to get on his or her schedule. So we already wait. Not to mention, as Mike has pointed out in the past, if you have no insurance and insufficient money your wait time for many things is effectively infinite under the US system as it currently is.
PeZook wrote:Why do these people keep assuming that minimum coverage standards mean that they won't be able to pay more to get their insurance policy upgraded?
Because right now in the US virtually no one can afford to "upgrade" from whatever slop their employer gives them right now - therefore, the concept of buying additional insurance over and above "basic" is quite simply inconveicable to the average American. Telling them they can "upgrade" their health insurance on their own is like telling them they can buy a Lear jet on their own to go with their car.
Darth Wong wrote:In order to go to a specialist, you would need to know what you need him for. This in turn requires that you have done some kind of self-diagnosis, and it would be a really bad idea to encourage that kind of behaviour. Internet self-diagnosis is already a virtual epidemic.
Either that, or you have been properly diagnosed with a chronic condition and thus would know you need certain types of care. For example, diabetics could reasonably ask to see an endocrinologist directly, epileptics asking for a neurologist makes sense, someone with a cardiovascular history should see a cardiologist, and so forth. My Other Half should be seen by a couple different specialists at least once in awhile, but in that case he calls their office, says "I have a history of X and would like to schedule an appointment". The most we've been asked to do is forward the relevant medical records to the doc's office in advance of the appointment. Clearly, if you did not have such a stack of information to foward you are unlikely to be given any of the doctor's time. End of problem.
Darth Wong wrote:OK, here's the basic terms of the insurance policy that we Ontario residents are stuck with:

1) You are guaranteed coverage for life, regardless of what conditions you acquire.
2) It is impossible for your policy to be rescinded.
3) There is no lifetime benefits cap.
4) The co-pay is $0.00.
5) The cost is $350 per person per month (based on division of the $40 billion/yr OHIP health care budget by the 10M population).

How much would it cost to get a policy with those terms from a US insurer?
You can't.

The only two even possible are numbers 3 and 5, and those would be unsusual. MAYBE 1, if you were a Federal employee with sufficient tenure, or a veteran under the VA, or officially disabled and/or old enough for Medicare.

At present, there is no guarantee you won't be subject to rescission.

I have never heard of any plan with no co-pay.

#5, by the way, simply does not exist either for the Other Half or me - the cheapest price I could get to cover just me was over $350/month. His... let's not go there.
bdh wrote:Paying the "true cost" of your health care has less to do with the covering your actual insurance costs as it does paying in proportion to your risk
Step away from the Kool-Aid, dude.
Admittedly, paying in proportion to one's risk can be unjust since people with previous conditions have 100% risk, so government intervention is necessary if our goal is to provide adequate health care to the already sick.
A few facts of life:
1) Everybody dies in the end. Sooner or later, you'll either need health care, or you'll be dead.

2) Nobody has perfect genes.

In other words, we're all "sick" or we all have some form of "pre-existing condition" in that eventually we'll have some disease or syndrome develop, or we'll get in an accident, or both. All of us. So all of us are 100% "at risk".
Nevertheless, lots of people engage in behaviors which increase their risks, and the government ought to account for these things in order to manage costs.
OK, let's immediately ban cars, french fries, step-stools, alcohol, firearms, knives, chain saws, bathroom floor tile, and everything else in life. Particuarly home hazards like step-stools and bathroom floor tile since, after all, most accidents happen in the home, right? Or did you mean some other form of risk, such as one you don't personally engage in or approve of?
Can you also quantify a patients 'peace of mind;' the premium a patient pays to an experience doctor who they believe is less likely to commit a medical error?
I can quantify is as "delusional". ALL doctors make errors. Most of them are caught before damage is done (as an example, pharmacists double-check prescriptions to make sure they make sense and don't conflict with other medications) but ALL doctors make errors. Anyone who believes otherwise is foolish at best.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Post Reply