American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

Post by Darth Wong »

This is an interesting little view into the world of American thinking vs foreign thinking:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/com ... 231.column
The end of Obamania
On his overseas trip, the president was met with a lot less cheering and a lot more tough talk.
Doyle McManus
July 12, 2009

Barack Obama has fallen back to Earth.

When he ran for president, Obama said his election would be "the moment the rise of the oceans began to slow." And when he made his first big foreign trip in April, he was hailed by adoring crowds -- and almost-as-adoring politicians -- in Britain, Germany, France and the Czech Republic.

But last week, in Russia and Italy, Obamania was little more than a pleasant memory. Yes, his international polling numbers are still high, but the president encountered hardly any adulation in the streets of Moscow or anywhere else. Instead, Russian strongman Vladimir Putin reportedly gave him a tongue-lashing over a two-hour breakfast, and the tent-bound refugees from Italy's April earthquake mostly wanted to know whether he could rebuild their homes. ("Yes, we camp," their banner said, pointedly.)

And the oceans are still rising too. At the Group of 8 summit, the developing countries said no to a timetable to stop global warming, the reason for the waters' rise.

That's not to say the trip was a bust; it wasn't. But it was far from a triumph, and that's a new experience for Obama's foreign policy team.

The hard reality of international affairs is that, just as the United States has interests, so do other countries. And when those interests conflict, all the charm and charisma in the world can't resolve the differences.

At the G-8 summit, the United States, Britain and France had hoped for a tough statement on Iran's nuclear ambitions. The closest they got to a warning was this: "We sincerely hope that Iran will seize this opportunity to give diplomacy a chance."

The summit's other accomplishments were mostly worthy half-measures. The developing countries wouldn't sign on, but the eight big economies agreed to try to for deeper cuts in greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, 41 years from now. After a personal appeal from Obama, member nations promised $20 billion to help poor countries grow more food, but much of the money turned out to be old pledges under a new name.

Obama went to Moscow to "reset" U.S.-Russian relations, which under George W. Bush had veered from unrealistic enthusiasm to bitter recriminations. He succeeded in changing the tone, but the concrete results were modest. The two nuclear powers agreed on a framework for reducing their atomic arsenals, but since both sides went into the talks wanting to cut, the nuclear issue was the easy part.

More difficult were the issues each country sees as its top priority: for the United States, the problem of Iran; for Russia, the desire of its onetime possessions Ukraine and Georgia to escape from Moscow's orbit.

Obama avoided the rookie mistake that John F. Kennedy committed at his first summit meeting in 1961, when the new president left the Russians thinking he was young, untested and uncertain. Obama said clearly that Russia must respect the sovereignty of Ukraine and Georgia. But he certainly didn't leave with the issue resolved.

On Iran, which aides said was a dominant subject of the meetings, there was no sign that Obama got the Russians to budge. The U.S. wants Russia to support tougher economic sanctions to push Iran toward giving up its nuclear fuel production. Russia, which views next-door neighbor Iran as both a business opportunity and a local security problem, has no appetite for that kind of confrontation.

"Iran is Russia's important partner," Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said on the eve of Obama's visit. "We cooperate and do so very productively." More sanctions "will only deteriorate the situation," he said. And that was his last word on the subject.

At their news conference, Obama wanted to talk about Iran, but Medvedev wouldn't mention the place. The Russians agreed to a joint study on the threat of ballistic missiles from countries such as North Korea and Iran, but that's about all.

"People have made too much of the 'reset.' They've talked about it as if it had magical properties or strategic content," said Stephen Sestanovich of the Council on Foreign Relations, a 25-year veteran of U.S.-Russia diplomacy. "But what happens when you reset a computer? You don't change the content. All you do, if you're lucky, is get the bugs out and start working again."

Obama and his aides may succeed in building a less angry, more businesslike relationship with the Russians, but will that change Moscow's views on Iran? Not likely. As Sestanovich puts it: "Russians don't think the problem is solvable."

Americans, of course, think every problem is solvable -- a persistent difference between the Old World and the New. But judging from last week's inconclusive diplomacy, the Russians may be right about this one.

The United States and its allies want Iran to negotiate, but Iran's Islamic leaders, facing challenges to their legitimacy at home, are digging in their heels. The next step, probably in September, is a concerted Western effort to step up economic sanctions against Tehran -- but that may mean a confrontation with Russia and China, which don't agree that sanctions are necessary.

All of which left Obama sounding, at the end of the week, as if he looked forward to getting back to solvable problems -- such as the economy and healthcare. "The one thing I will be looking forward to," he said, "is fewer summit meetings."
Essentially, it boils down to "Obama's foreign policy approach is going nowhere because we will never be able to get the rest of the world to obey our every command". I can only wonder what he considers to be a successful marriage, if his idea of successful foreign relations is "they obey us". When he says "can't resolve the differences", what he means is "can't make other countries do whatever we say". This is the entire problem with the way far too many Americans think of foreign relations.

Now, here's what they're saying in Russia about the recent talks:
http://watchingamerica.com/News/31321/w ... to-moscow/
What Did Obama Get Out of His Visit to Moscow?
By Yekaterina Grigoryeva
Translated By Olga Kerzhner
8 July 2009
Edited by Katy Burtner

Russia - Izvestia - Original Article (Russian)

On Wednesday morning, after his first visit to Moscow, Barack Obama left the Russian capital. If not “Obama-mania,” then at least “Obama-optimism” remained in his wake. Should we expect this optimism to bear any fruit?

Everyone who participated in the talks with Obama noted that the very style of the Russian-American dialogue has qualitatively changed. The U.S. president did not arrive with ready-made solutions (e.g. “Here, we must do so and so”). Instead, he came with a desire to understand the actual situation. There is a psychological law that says if you really want someone to agree with you, show that you understand the opponent’s position, and only then say "but."

That’s exactly what Obama did. In fact, some of his key phrases surpassed many (even of the boldest) expectations. The following statement alone is very valuable. Obama stated: “Russia's future is up to the Russian people. Not every choice that's good for the United States is going to be good for Russia.” Sources close to the talks tell Izvestia that this and similar phrases were heard and appreciated.

This change in tone has already produced a significant result. During the visit, the Afghan transit agreement was signed. The agreement enables Americans to significantly cut costs with respect to their own military presence in Afghanistan (which is, of course, important for Obama’s approval ratings). The shorter flight route alone will save the U.S. approximately $140 million in fuel and other costs. In addition, Russia agreed not to charge a fee for the use of its air space, which also saved approximately $20 million.

It seems like Russia keeps making concessions to America, and what’s the good in that? But there is a benefit – the right, at any time, to inspect military cargo. In other words, after Washington listened to Moscow’s position, it didn’t shout, “we transport whatever we want and it’s none of your business,” but simply took a step towards mutual agreement. The agreement also clearly specifies what can and cannot be transported, and the rules for the inspections. Moscow also appreciates this approach. Izvestia’s sources say that no one, for pride’s sake, will inspect the aircrafts and, most likely, Americans will fly freely.

Can this “model” approach taken in the Afghan transit agreement be applied to other areas? Obama’s attitude seems to indicate that the answer is more likely yes than no. For example, sources say that during his breakfast with Vladimir Putin, Obama inquired in detail about the proposals Putin made to George W. Bush during his presidency. Among Obama’s inquiries was the area of missile defense. It seemed as though Obama’s advisers (perhaps, the same people who wrote “overload” [peregruzka] instead of “reset” [perezagruzka]) weren’t telling him everything.

The same applies to the South Ossetian situation. On the one hand, Obama has repeatedly emphasized (even in Moscow) that he supports Georgia’s territorial integrity. But there are parallel signals that paint a different picture. First, Georgia’s territorial integrity should not be recovered through military means. And second, the current U.S. administration considers some of its predecessor’s decisions in this area to be misguided and rash.

Once, Bush looked into Putin’s soul. Obama, it seems, is interested in rational arguments, not the soul. His first visit could be considered the “words” stage. The “deeds” stage will begin in September when the U.S. and Russian presidents meet again.

What was the most important aspect of Obama’s visit?
By Natalia Antipova, Vasiliy Voropaev

Ilya Ponomarev, Russian State Duma deputy, a participant in the talks with the U.S. President:

- I think that the main outcome of the U.S. President Barack Obama’s visit to Russia is that now he knows more about Russia than any previous U.S. administration. He has demonstrated a desire to find out what’s really going on in Russia. I think that now, American policy will not operate with its eyes closed, but instead will hold itself more accountable for its actions. American politics will undergo major changes compared to the previous administration, even taking into account the views that the current Obama administration might have had.

But we shouldn’t talk about any radical changes in Russian-American relations. Especially considering that Obama himself, when I spoke with him, warned against any illusions or inflated expectations. He stressed that any changes will be very gradual, but profound and meaningful. The ideological stereotypes of the previous administration, which dictated neo-conservatism, will be gone. The rest will be up to us and depends on whether we can translate this conversation in a common language into concrete action.

Alexei Arbatov, Corresponding Member of the Russian Academy of Sciences; Head of the Center for International Security at Institute of World Economy and International:
- I wouldn’t say that there were any major developments, or that we reached new horizons. But a major step was taken to restore the relations, which were practically destroyed in August of last year. Neither side lost, neither side won. I think that now, relations can only be built on the basis of mutual interest. As a result, to the extent that this important, albeit modest step, was taken, both sides won.

Fyodor Lukyanov, editor-in-chief of Russia in Global Affairs:
- The main outcome is the change in the relations’ climate. During the fall of last year, the mutual trust level declined approximately to the atmosphere of the early ‘80s, which was the early Reagan era. For 2008, this was, of course, unnatural. Currently, the character of cooperation has been more or less restored. This is not a guarantee that the mechanism will operate like clockwork, but at least it started working. This is a serious result. Both delegations and both presidents have said, publicly and privately, that the atmosphere of the dialogue is very good. That’s already not bad.
It's quite frankly a triumph just to restore relations: something that far too many Americans don't understand. They don't see other countries as real entities containing human beings which want to be understood; they see them as chess pieces on some kind of global playing board, and if they don't do what you want, then they're useless and there's no point talking to them at all. The most telling phrase was the part where it was pointed out that Bush tended to arrive in Russia with a list of demands, whereas Obama was willing to actually talk, and listen.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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It's interesting to note the difference between an American source bemoaning the lack of their 'obey new' popularity, and a Russian source being enthusiastic about rapporoachment and mutual agreements... but Americans will just say REALPOLITIK and 'Obama's job isn't to make Russians happy omg shamwow' and be disappointed in this. Why is he talking? What good is an agreement? Macho is the best approach!
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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It's interesting to note the difference between an American source bemoaning the lack of their 'obey new' popularity, and a Russian source being enthusiastic about rapporoachment and mutual agreements... but Americans will just say REALPOLITIK and 'Obama's job isn't to make Russians happy omg shamwow' and be disappointed in this. Why is he talking? What good is an agreement? Macho is the best approach!
Don't knock Realpolitik -- Bismark himself saw the many benefits in a friendly relationship with Russia.

And, while this isn't a rightwing point specifically -- I see this as a typical example of an American misunderstanding of how international affairs works that is particularly manifest in the right: The expectation that other countries can be persuaded to see something as in their best interests. As Obama himself put it, not everything that is good for America is good for those we deal with, and so no amount of talking is going to convince them of that. Another example would be the Iran situation. It is not in Iran's best interests to discontinue their nuclear weapons development, leading many to say that we have no choice but to threaten them because they won't give it up.

It's equivalent to having the goal of "Make Bob give you his wallet." And if you can't fasttalk Bob into giving you all his cash, saying diplomacy failed and pulling a gun on him.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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Darth Wong wrote:It's quite frankly a triumph just to restore relations: something that far too many Americans don't understand. They don't see other countries as real entities containing human beings which want to be understood; they see them as chess pieces on some kind of global playing board, and if they don't do what you want, then they're useless and there's no point talking to them at all. The most telling phrase was the part where it was pointed out that Bush tended to arrive in Russia with a list of demands, whereas Obama was willing to actually talk, and listen.
Yes. In America, people willing to take people they disagree with seriously and respect them are far too thin on the ground. I suspect that this is true throughout the world, but that is purely a private suspicion on my part.
lazerus wrote:Don't knock Realpolitik -- Bismark himself saw the many benefits in a friendly relationship with Russia.

And, while this isn't a rightwing point specifically -- I see this as a typical example of an American misunderstanding of how international affairs works that is particularly manifest in the right: The expectation that other countries can be persuaded to see something as in their best interests. As Obama himself put it, not everything that is good for America is good for those we deal with, and so no amount of talking is going to convince them of that. Another example would be the Iran situation. It is not in Iran's best interests to discontinue their nuclear weapons development, leading many to say that we have no choice but to threaten them because they won't give it up.

It's equivalent to having the goal of "Make Bob give you his wallet." And if you can't fasttalk Bob into giving you all his cash, saying diplomacy failed and pulling a gun on him.
Diplomacy in the classic sense (talking to people you don't outgun) was usually optional for us until quite recently, and by the time we had to get the hang of it we were already one of the most powerful nations on Earth. Which allowed us to get away with gunboat diplomacy where most other countries would have to resort to normal diplomacy.

So we don't have a long memory of methods for negotiating with a foreign power that we can't compel. And we do have a long memory of times when we were able to get people to agree to do more or less exactly what we want.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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OP article wrote:and the tent-bound refugees from Italy's April earthquake mostly wanted to know whether he could rebuild their homes. ("Yes, we camp," their banner said, pointedly.)
Shouldn't this be the responsibility of Berlusconi (you know - their Prime Minister)?
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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B5B7 wrote:
OP article wrote:and the tent-bound refugees from Italy's April earthquake mostly wanted to know whether he could rebuild their homes. ("Yes, we camp," their banner said, pointedly.)
Shouldn't this be the responsibility of Berlusconi (you know - their Prime Minister)?
Maybe he should build them a holiday camp...
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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OP article wrote wrote:"Yes, we camp," their banner said, pointedly.
Wow, that's smug. Italian earthquake victims blame Obama for... what? Earthquake? Berlusconi? Neither of their two debacles has anything to do with Obama, or am I missing something here.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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If I had to guess, I'd say that they're trying to embarrass Berlusconi in front of Obama.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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Vympel wrote:If I had to guess, I'd say that they're trying to embarrass Berlusconi in front of Obama.
Wouldn't it be more logical that they want (more) aid from America? (In addition to embarassing Italy's gov.)
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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The Grim Squeaker wrote:Wouldn't it be more logical that they want (more) aid from America? (In addition to embarassing Italy's gov.)
I'm pretty sure America doesn't give any aid to Western European countries. Not even Italy.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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Teebs wrote:
The Grim Squeaker wrote:Wouldn't it be more logical that they want (more) aid from America? (In addition to embarassing Italy's gov.)
I'm pretty sure America doesn't give any aid to Western European countries. Not even Italy.
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The United States said Monday it would donate 50,000 dollars in emergency aid to Italy after a powerful earthquake killed at least 100 people.

"We send our heartfelt condolences to the families of those killed in the earthquake. Our embassy in Rome will provide 50,000 (dollars) in emergency relief funding," State Department spokesman Robert Wood told reporters.

Italian authorities told the United States they did not need rescue teams, Wood said.

President Barack Obama earlier offered his condolences on a visit to Turkey and voiced hope that the United States could send rescuers.

The earthquake killed at least 100 people and injured 1,500 more as it reduced medieval buildings to rubble in the central town of L'Aquila.

Wood said there were no reports of US citizens among the dead or injured but that the US embassy in Rome was reaching out to Americans living in the region.
Not a lot of it, granted.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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The Grim Squeaker wrote: wrong
The United States said Monday it would donate 50,000 dollars in emergency aid to Italy after a powerful earthquake killed at least 100 people.

Not a lot of it, granted.
I stand corrected. I'm surprised though, Western Europe is hardly poor and in need of foreign aid* and the amount is so small that I can't imagine it generated much goodwill.

*Monetary aid that is, obviously in a disaster situation equipment and skilled personnel can be very useful as their supply is fixed in the short term. Odd that the Italians took a small amount of money but rejected rescue teams.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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B5B7 wrote:
OP article wrote:and the tent-bound refugees from Italy's April earthquake mostly wanted to know whether he could rebuild their homes. ("Yes, we camp," their banner said, pointedly.)
Shouldn't this be the responsibility of Berlusconi (you know - their Prime Minister)?
If I was an Italian living in a camp (still) I'd be asking anybody but Berlusconi for help. Unless I was a call girl that is. :wink:
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

It's not unusual for first world nations to donate aid to one another in times of crisis. Look at how many countries sent dollars and equipment to Katrina - does this mean America as a whole needs foreign aid?
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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Darth Wong wrote:Essentially, it boils down to "Obama's foreign policy approach is going nowhere because we will never be able to get the rest of the world to obey our every command".
I can only wonder what he considers to be a successful marriage, if his idea of successful foreign relations is "they obey us". When he says "can't resolve the differences", what he means is "can't make other countries do whatever we say". This is the entire problem with the way far too many Americans think of foreign relations.
I don't see that at all. It clearly states that for all the politeness of Obama's administration at the end of the day different countries have different interests so the relations between Russia and US are unlikely to dramatically change just because there are new faces in Kremlin and White House.
Russian article basically states the same thing: although it gives more importance to the fact that Obama is more polite than Bush and sounds more optimistic it constantly reminds us that radical changes in the relationship are unlikely.
Darth Wong wrote:It's quite frankly a triumph just to restore relations: something that far too many Americans don't understand. They don't see other countries as real entities containing human beings which want to be understood; they see them as chess pieces on some kind of global playing board, and if they don't do what you want, then they're useless and there's no point talking to them at all. The most telling phrase was the part where it was pointed out that Bush tended to arrive in Russia with a list of demands, whereas Obama was willing to actually talk, and listen.
Well seeing as how one of the Russian demands is for US to recognize Moscow's dominance in the former USSR it's clear that treating weaker countries as pieces on the chessboard is hardly a flaw unique to US.
As an example Russian GDP is 6.5 times greater than that of Ukraine and 6.4 times smaller than US GDP. Yet while Russians freely talk about Ukraine belonging to "Russian sphere of influence" they demand respect and treatment as an equal from US.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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Kane Starkiller wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Essentially, it boils down to "Obama's foreign policy approach is going nowhere because we will never be able to get the rest of the world to obey our every command".
I can only wonder what he considers to be a successful marriage, if his idea of successful foreign relations is "they obey us". When he says "can't resolve the differences", what he means is "can't make other countries do whatever we say". This is the entire problem with the way far too many Americans think of foreign relations.
I don't see that at all. It clearly states that for all the politeness of Obama's administration at the end of the day different countries have different interests so the relations between Russia and US are unlikely to dramatically change just because there are new faces in Kremlin and White House.
Russian article basically states the same thing: although it gives more importance to the fact that Obama is more polite than Bush and sounds more optimistic it constantly reminds us that radical changes in the relationship are unlikely.
Like he said- 'radical changes' would mean 'kowtowing to the US', so that's of course why it sounds optimistic on the Russian side. You're just confirming Wong's analysis.
Darth Wong wrote:It's quite frankly a triumph just to restore relations: something that far too many Americans don't understand. They don't see other countries as real entities containing human beings which want to be understood; they see them as chess pieces on some kind of global playing board, and if they don't do what you want, then they're useless and there's no point talking to them at all. The most telling phrase was the part where it was pointed out that Bush tended to arrive in Russia with a list of demands, whereas Obama was willing to actually talk, and listen.
Well seeing as how one of the Russian demands is for US to recognize Moscow's dominance in the former USSR it's clear that treating weaker countries as pieces on the chessboard is hardly a flaw unique to US.
As an example Russian GDP is 6.5 times greater than that of Ukraine and 6.4 times smaller than US GDP. Yet while Russians freely talk about Ukraine belonging to "Russian sphere of influence" they demand respect and treatment as an equal from US.
Wait, did you just attempt to justify 'we are bigger economically therefore Ukraine should belong to our sphere of influence'? If the US wants to play the empire game- "We beat you in the cold war, you are a pitiful remnant of your old glory and we take protectorateship of your former SSRs as a victory prize", they shouldn't be cloaking themselves in ideas of fairness and equality.

Ideally Ukraine would be in neither US nor Soviet sphere, but that's not an option in politics unless you're Switzerland. It's rather a zero sum game and Obama is weighing several goals such as expansion of US economic and strategic influences against pissing off Russia. Bush wanted his cake- Russian economic 'friendship' and lack of economic or military meddling with their neighbours such as Georgia- and to eat it too- Ukraine and all the former soviet countries in NATO and good little US allies.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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Duckie wrote:Wait, did you just attempt to justify 'we are bigger economically therefore Ukraine should belong to our sphere of influence'? If the US wants to play the empire game- "We beat you in the cold war, you are a pitiful remnant of your old glory and we take protectorateship of your former SSRs as a victory prize", they shouldn't be cloaking themselves in ideas of fairness and equality.
No, the argument was that the US is to Russia as Russia is to Ukraine, in terms of economic power. Thus Russia has equal rights to claiming influence over Ukraine as the US has rights claiming influence over Russia. Russia thus shouldn't try to exert its influence over the smaller state while demanding equality with the larger state. It's a simplistic comparison that ignores issues like military strength, history, public will, or geography, but the core of the argument is not saying that the US has more rights to Ukraine than Russia.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

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Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:
Duckie wrote:Wait, did you just attempt to justify 'we are bigger economically therefore Ukraine should belong to our sphere of influence'? If the US wants to play the empire game- "We beat you in the cold war, you are a pitiful remnant of your old glory and we take protectorateship of your former SSRs as a victory prize", they shouldn't be cloaking themselves in ideas of fairness and equality.
No, the argument was that the US is to Russia as Russia is to Ukraine, in terms of economic power. Thus Russia has equal rights to claiming influence over Ukraine as the US has rights claiming influence over Russia. Russia thus shouldn't try to exert its influence over the smaller state while demanding equality with the larger state. It's a simplistic comparison that ignores issues like military strength, history, public will, or geography, but the core of the argument is not saying that the US has more rights to Ukraine than Russia.
That just makes it even worse, because it means that according to his argument, if in absence of US intervention Ukraine was in the Russian Sphere (premise), then with US meddling Russia should be kowtowing to the US because the US is bigger in the same proportion, and thus the entire world is the US sphere. Either that, or economic size has no correlation with what a country should do.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

Post by Kane Starkiller »

Duckie wrote:Like he said- 'radical changes' would mean 'kowtowing to the US', so that's of course why it sounds optimistic on the Russian side. You're just confirming Wong's analysis.
Not necessarily. Radical changes could also mean US giving up on the strategic relationship with Poland and Georgia and recognizing Russian dominance. The point is the article never said everyone should bow to US interests merely noted that the differences between Russia and US go far deeper than the personal relationship between Bush and Putin.
Duckie wrote:Wait, did you just attempt to justify 'we are bigger economically therefore Ukraine should belong to our sphere of influence'? If the US wants to play the empire game- "We beat you in the cold war, you are a pitiful remnant of your old glory and we take protectorateship of your former SSRs as a victory prize", they shouldn't be cloaking themselves in ideas of fairness and equality.
Ideally Ukraine would be in neither US nor Soviet sphere, but that's not an option in politics unless you're Switzerland. It's rather a zero sum game and Obama is weighing several goals such as expansion of US economic and strategic influences against pissing off Russia. Bush wanted his cake- Russian economic 'friendship' and lack of economic or military meddling with their neighbours such as Georgia- and to eat it too- Ukraine and all the former soviet countries in NATO and good little US allies.
As a citizen of a small country I obviously would like that the sovereignty of a country is respected no matter how weak and small it is but that isn't going to happen anytime soon. As soon as we start talking about "who Ukraine should belong to" we are talking about strength and power and not morality.
However my GDP comparison was not intended to justify US dominance over Ukraine (which US is not attempting in the first place, an independent Ukraine free of Russian influence would serve US just fine) but to reveal Russian position as every bit as hypocritical as US position if not more so: they point to themselves as leaders of the region because they are the most powerful but still demand US treats them as equals as Grandmaster Jogurt explained.
And of course the comparison is simplistic but the main point is that when you start talking about fates of neighboring countries and who will control them you are no longer speaking from the position of morality but from the position of power.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

Post by Darth Wong »

Of course the first article is aware that the US and Russia will never see eye to eye. The problem is that it paints this as an obstacle which Obama's magic cannot eliminate, thus somehow reducing Obama's stature.

Your Russian comparison is quite frankly a load of irrelevant bullshit. We're talking about which of two competing mindsets about foreign relations is superior, not whether America is unique in containing idiots who view these things the wrong way.
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Re: American perceptions vs Russian perceptions

Post by fgalkin »

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:
Duckie wrote:Wait, did you just attempt to justify 'we are bigger economically therefore Ukraine should belong to our sphere of influence'? If the US wants to play the empire game- "We beat you in the cold war, you are a pitiful remnant of your old glory and we take protectorateship of your former SSRs as a victory prize", they shouldn't be cloaking themselves in ideas of fairness and equality.
No, the argument was that the US is to Russia as Russia is to Ukraine, in terms of economic power. Thus Russia has equal rights to claiming influence over Ukraine as the US has rights claiming influence over Russia. Russia thus shouldn't try to exert its influence over the smaller state while demanding equality with the larger state. It's a simplistic comparison that ignores issues like military strength, history, public will, or geography, but the core of the argument is not saying that the US has more rights to Ukraine than Russia.
Russia will abandon its claims to the Ukraine when the US abandons the Monroe doctrine.

The question is not economic power, but geographical proximity.

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