WH:40k (power) armor question

[Imperial Overlord]

While it's certainly true that terms like "autocannon", "lasgun" and "heavy stubber" are very broad categories not unlike real-life terms (assault rifle, machine gun, etc), the terminology used in Annihilation Squad is still odd.

When you have 25mm automatic weapon firing solid slug ammunition, I would expect that, by definition, it would be called a 40k "autocannon".

Except the category of "autocannon" in 40K means "high enough fire rate to kill infantry pretty good, but hard hitting enough to chew up armoured vehicles." I imagine that puts the 25mm as the top end of heavy stubbers, but not quite an autocannon.

[white_rabbit]

I would have said once that the difference twixt an autocannon and Stubber of similar calibre was rate of fire and explosive ammunition, until some daft git decided that explosive rounds for autocannon were lost tech.

[Imperial Overlord]

I would have said once that the difference twixt an autocannon and Stubber of similar calibre was rate of fire and explosive ammunition, until some daft git decided that explosive rounds for autocannon were lost tech.

The can make grenades the size of marbles, explosive bolter rounds, all sorts of nifty Exitus rifle rounds, the early fluff (I don't recall any more recent fluff about them) calls autocannon rounds explosive, and explosive rounds are lost tech?

Not buying that.

[Connor MacLeod]

I would have said once that the difference twixt an autocannon and Stubber of similar calibre was rate of fire and explosive ammunition, until some daft git decided that explosive rounds for autocannon were lost tech.

Pfft I know not of which you speak. I'm pretty sure other sources still indicate it isn't. I think its just a local thing.

Mind you, stubbers are supposed to be lower tech/archaic stuff. autocannons could just be higher tech stuff.

Now that I think about it didn't Abnett mention .50 cal autocannon for the Ghosts post Necropolis? and .30 cal something or other?

[TheMuffinKing]

It would seem best not to dwell too long on the terminology. I can see a headache arising from trying to wrap my head around the 40k universe's myriad weapon classifications.

[NecronLord]

Pfft I know not of which you speak. I'm pretty sure other sources still indicate it isn't. I think its just a local thing.

It's in the Munitorum Manual. One of its sillier bits. They could have just said 'micro-melta shells' or something for the same effect.

[Connor MacLeod]

Pfft I know not of which you speak. I'm pretty sure other sources still indicate it isn't. I think its just a local thing.

It's in the Munitorum Manual. One of its sillier bits. They could have just said 'micro-melta shells' or something for the same effect.

I know. I think somebody overed the Munitorum manual somewhereon here sometime back?

[white_rabbit]

the early fluff (I don't recall any more recent fluff about them) calls autocannon rounds explosive,

The best one is Hydra flak tanks. Its got four of them, described in literally every instance as firing explosive rounds.

whoever wrote the little snippet in question should get a big slap.

[Enosh]

I think that's another case of taking the "zomg grindark, lost tech, IoM stupid" thingy too far

[white_rabbit]

I think that's another case of taking the "zomg grindark, lost tech, IoM stupid" thingy too far

You can potentially go the other way.

I've just been reading Emperor's Mercy, by the newbie Mr Henry Zou, and a chain fed autocannon on a light tank (think Urdeshi style knockoffs) blasts a bunker apart with "sixty kilotonnes of kinetic energy" impact.

Who winced when they read that ?

[TheMuffinKing]

the early fluff (I don't recall any more recent fluff about them) calls autocannon rounds explosive,

The best one is Hydra flak tanks. Its got four of them, described in literally every instance as firing explosive rounds.

whoever wrote the little snippet in question should get a big slap.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, but the author could be referring to proximity fused exploding autocannon rounds, used specifically for an anti aircraft role.

Or do you mean ALL autocannons everywhere?

[Enosh]

You can potentially go the other way.

I've just been reading Emperor's Mercy, by the newbie Mr Henry Zou, and a chain fed autocannon on a light tank (think Urdeshi style knockoffs) blasts a bunker apart with "sixty kilotonnes of kinetic energy" impact.

Who winced when they read that ?

in short: GW doesn't give a shit about what writers put in their books before they stamp the 40k logo on it
but well they have the perfect excuse for all these incosistencies "all this is propaganda and maybe wrong"

[Azazal]

I think that's another case of taking the "zomg grindark, lost tech, IoM stupid" thingy too far

You can potentially go the other way.

I've just been reading Emperor's Mercy, by the newbie Mr Henry Zou, and a chain fed autocannon on a light tank (think Urdeshi style knockoffs) blasts a bunker apart with "sixty kilotonnes of kinetic energy" impact.

Who winced when they read that ?

oh come on, what could be wrong with that? Tanks through around 3 times the yield of Fat Man all the time man.

[Connor MacLeod]

Then again there are Hydra flak tanks which can shoot down 40K fighters (including it would seem space fighters) and space fighters (or most fighters, if you go by Apocalypse) are titan grade ifrepower to SOME degree.

Nevermind that bunkers and some obstructions (like tanks) are tough enough to need a melta or multimelta at LEAST to crack, if not more

[andrewgpaul]

Space fighters are also huge, IIRC - there's mention of one in the first Gaunt's Ghosts book at about 100m long, IIRC. The little comic included in the BFG book shows the Fury Interceptor with a crew of three or so, but I'm not sure if there's enough to scale it from.

[white_rabbit]

Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, but the author could be referring to proximity fused exploding autocannon rounds, used specifically for an anti aircraft role.

Or do you mean ALL autocannons everywhere?

I mean, the Manual refers to explosive rounds being lost technology, and the most common AA vehicle in the Imperium fires off explosive autocannon rounds in every instance.

oh come on, what could be wrong with that? Tanks through around 3 times the yield of Fat Man all the time man.

Yeah, but in 40k they at least have the decency to be giant doom tanks most of the time, not "light tanks"

Space fighters are also huge, IIRC - there's mention of one in the first Gaunt's Ghosts book at about 100m long, IIRC. The little comic included in the BFG book shows the Fury Interceptor with a crew of three or so, but I'm not sure if there's enough to scale it from.

A stripped down navy fighter is used to covertly insert an Inquisitor in Emperor's Mercy. Its 60 tonnes while stripped down and carrying extra fuel tanks.

It flies in low enough to boil the ocean with its exhaust, and is designed with a low radar cross section and counterstealth radar, its also a VTOL.

Interestingly, it manages all its crazy low flying and so forth with a servitor pilot.

Theres also a space version of the Marauder that weighs more than baneblade, and several times more than its atmospheric collegue.

[andrewgpaul]

Is that the Starhawk bomber referred to in Battlefleet Gothic, or does some other source call it a Marauder.

From what I recall, there was a short story in Inferno! magazine about a Marauder crew engaging in a bombing run against an Ork Hulk, in space. These were the standard Maauders, though, not a bigger plane.*

*Mind you, the artwork <i>did</i> look significantly larger than the later descriptions in Imperial Armour - is that what you're referring to?

[Cykeisme]

Except the category of "autocannon" in 40K means "high enough fire rate to kill infantry pretty good, but hard hitting enough to chew up armoured vehicles." I imagine that puts the 25mm as the top end of heavy stubbers, but not quite an autocannon.

Yeah, that would make sense.
I was probably assuming the 40k definitions would mirror real life (a "cannon" being 20mm caliber and up).. and the M2 Bradley having a 25mm autocannon and all.
This is the grim far future after all.

A stripped down navy fighter is used to covertly insert an Inquisitor in Emperor's Mercy. Its 60 tonnes while stripped down and carrying extra fuel tanks.

60 tonnes stripped isn't that heavy for a space fighter, is it? An F-15 weighs about 20 tons empty and 30 tons fully loaded at take-off.
We might imagine the Fury masses 2 or 3 times more than the F-15, but spacecraft might be significantly denser, and thus not much greater in size.

[Connor MacLeod]

Is that the Starhawk bomber referred to in Battlefleet Gothic, or does some other source call it a Marauder.

Doubt it. In the Rennie novels Starhawks were 300 tons. Furies were ~200 tons.

Since I've come to the point of classifying the Imperial armour micro-fighters (to borrow the similar problem SW faced with prequel fighters) as being mostly atmospheric only (even though I personally consider it retarded) I might consider this some "intermediate" range craft. Hell, maybe though its some space-based "interceptor" for all we know - the space-only equivlaent of hte Lightning for example.

From what I recall, there was a short story in Inferno! magazine about a Marauder crew engaging in a bombing run against an Ork Hulk, in space. These were the standard Maauders, though, not a bigger plane.*

*Mind you, the artwork <i>did</i> look significantly larger than the later descriptions in Imperial Armour - is that what you're referring to?

In some of the Gav Thorpe short stories involving the Navy, Marauders (IIRC, maybe it was T-bolts) are significantly more massive in space - nigh on 200 tons (3x the size of a Leman Russ IIRC)

For some reason Imperial armour went with smaller masses (and probably sizes) for Imperial fighters and then certain authors like Abnett (in Sabbat MArtyr for example) went with it.

[Connor MacLeod]

Except the category of "autocannon" in 40K means "high enough fire rate to kill infantry pretty good, but hard hitting enough to chew up armoured vehicles." I imagine that puts the 25mm as the top end of heavy stubbers, but not quite an autocannon.

Yeah, that would make sense.
I was probably assuming the 40k definitions would mirror real life (a "cannon" being 20mm caliber and up).. and the M2 Bradley having a 25mm autocannon and all.
This is the grim far future after all.

Out of universe, the various authors of novels, gamebooks, associated materilas, etc have quite simpyl fucked up any sort of "strict" definition system except for maybe flamers, lasguns and autoguns (but even the last two aren't totally immune.) Meltas and plasma weapons have gone from being energy weapons to "high tech flamethrowerS" depending on author, auto-weapons have come to include bolt action and semi automatic weapons as well as automatic weapons, and so on and so forth.

The fact is, in universe we're generally forced ot accept some "overlap" for osme weapons. Stubbers overlap on the high end with the low end of autocannon as far as calibre goes. autocannon overlap (mostly) on the high end with the low end of battle cannon. And the battle cannon overlap with Macro-cannon something fierce.

And then youh ave some heavy bolters that are 25mm or greater. lol.

60 tonnes stripped isn't that heavy for a space fighter, is it? An F-15 weighs about 20 tons empty and 30 tons fully loaded at take-off.
We might imagine the Fury masses 2 or 3 times more than the F-15, but spacecraft might be significantly denser, and thus not much greater in size.

In the novel IIRC it reads like "stratofighter", whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean, but it might not be a space fighter (or strictly a space fighter.)

I believe it was called nad used as a lander (it carried an Inquisitor's retinue down to the surface of the planet), and the design implied atmospheric use (it has stealth qualities that would be more useful I think on the surface than in space.)

[Lord Revan]

well in WH:40K these overlaps could make some sence for example imperial (aka Terra) standard for auto cannon could anything 20+ mm and capable of automatic fire, where as say for example Cadia the standard could so something else (like 30+ mm).

it is after all extremly hard if not totally impossible to impose any "standard" for the worlds of the Imperium.

[andrewgpaul]

For some reason Imperial armour went with smaller masses (and probably sizes) for Imperial fighters and then certain authors like Abnett (in Sabbat MArtyr for example) went with it.

Probably because the Forgeworld numbers are closer to the miniature depictions at the time. For instance, look at the current Specialist Games Marauder mini. That plane can't be as huge as some of Gav's descriptions, unless that side door is built for Ogryns.