Borg vs Jedi

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2003-02-09 09:48am

This has been done to death, however could you provide precise and detailed arguments on why the Jedi ( and SW in general ) would ass-rape the Borg ? I'm too lazy to do it myself, that's for a clueless Trekkie on a French ST forum.

Thanks

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-02-09 10:13am

Jedi vs Borg:
1) Telekinesis. Force-bitchslap the Borg across the room. Rip cables loose. Mara Jade indicates in the NJO that a really skilled Jedi can cause an aneurysm in the brain by pinching off a blood vessel, and Darth Vader repeatedly demonstrated that he can strangle somebody at long range. In one of the EU books (can't recall which) Luke uses the Force to cripple the engines of a starship. The kind of power needed to do that can easily dismantle a Borg drone.
2) Lightsabers. No frequency for the Borg to "adapt" to, and can cut through any known material. Unless someone wants to posit that Borg drone skin and metal parts are stronger than a blast door on a Trade Federation starship, that means a lightsaber will chop right through a Borg.
3) Jedi Force-senses. The Borg can't sneak up on a Jedi because he or she will feel them through the Force. Any life-form can be felt in such a way except the YV, and with practice a Jedi can distinguish them just because they're a moving "hole" in the Force. Jedi enhanced reflexes and precog means that it's VERY unlikely a Borg can get close enough to a Jedi to use their nanoprobes.
4) Jedi muscular control. The Jedi can control their musculature sufficiently to eject poison from their bloodstream (Vector Prime). Even if the Borg somehow injected nanoprobes into a Jedi, the Jedi may well be able to remove them in such a fashion.

The rest of Star Wars:
1) Starfighters. Borg weapons haven't shown an ability for precision targeting of something as small and fast-moving as a starfighter, and Borg drones don't have the reflexes necessary to be fighter pilots themselves. Though starfighter-grade weapons may not be a threat to Star Wars capital ships, they do carry enough firepower, at the squadron level, to be a SERIOUS threat to Star Trek ships. The exact numbers on torpedo power output are available elsewhere on the site, I believe.
2) Turbolasers. Turbolasers are not lasers. HTL put out hundreds of gigatons of energy per beam (not per volley, per WEAPON). Medium and light turbolasers put out considerably less, but are still multi-megaton level weapons. Borg cubes are big enough to be viable targets for HTL anyway. Several hundred such weapons firing at a single cube would either overload its shields (most likely) or simply put enough pressure on them to tear the shield generators loose from their mountings and shove them out the back of the cube (less likely but most amusing).
3) Ion cannons. I really, really, want to see what happens when you shoot a Borg cube with an ion cannon.
4) Shields. Star Wars shields are FAR more powerful, and the hulls of their ships far thicker, than their Star Trek counterparts. The Borg have yet to prove they can beam through such shields or hull material. And their weapons, which can't punch through the Enterprise's shields in a single volley, probably wouldn't do much more than amuse a Mon Calamari Cruiser's captain. Once again, shield levels are available on the website if you need numbers.

"We are Borg. Resistance is futile. Lower your shields and prepa--" "Target that spacegoing box. Full broadside." "--re to be assim *static*".

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-02-09 10:15am

Damn. Edit that slightly. Lightsabers can cut through any known material except YV armor and amphistaffs (which they can still cut through given a few swings) and cortosis ore (which it can cut through but takes a while).

Grand Moff Yenchin · Post by **Grand Moff Yenchin** » 2003-02-09 11:46am

Borg drones are weak minded, a Jedi can persuade one (which means all since their collective consciousness) to do anything he wants.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-09 12:35pm

Kerneth wrote:Damn. Edit that slightly. Lightsabers can cut through any known material except YV armor and amphistaffs (which they can still cut through given a few swings) and cortosis ore (which it can cut through but takes a while).

Well the YV is because the armor and staffs emit a forcefield to block it (makes much more sense then the stuff being uber dense)

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-09 12:36pm

Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:Borg drones are weak minded, a Jedi can persuade one (which means all since their collective consciousness) to do anything he wants.

Not likely IMHO. Jedi mind tricks don't work on droids, so I doubt they would work on the borg as the collective is one giant droid mind.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-02-09 12:51pm

Actually, the Borg can take down starfighters pretty easy. In The Best of Both Worlds II, the cube removed a small group of fighters with ease.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-09 01:01pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:Actually, the Borg can take down starfighters pretty easy. In The Best of Both Worlds II, the cube removed a small group of fighters with ease.

While you are correct, those were tac fighters. They are larger and slower then SW fighters, and as I recall were not manuvering, but were on a straight line course

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-02-09 01:02pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:Actually, the Borg can take down starfighters pretty easy. In The Best of Both Worlds II, the cube removed a small group of fighters with ease.

Of course, it sorta helped that the fighters all flew in a nice, straight line in close formation at a uniform velocity and never even attempted to make one evasive manoeuver.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-09 01:04pm

Kerneth wrote:
The rest of Star Wars:
2) Turbolasers.. HTL put out hundreds of gigatons of energy per beam (not per volley, per WEAPON). Medium and light turbolasers put out considerably less, but are still multi-megaton level weapons. 3) Ion cannons. I really, really, want to see what happens when you shoot a Borg cube with an ion cannon.

Actually only the LTL are incapable of pulling hundreds of Gigatons of Firepower(Bean put up that the HTL's are capable of Teratons) the MTL's are considered to put out 200+GT....small nitpick

As for incapable of handling Starfighter...the problem is Admiral Johanson...is they were facing things that came from Mars going literally hundreds of times slower than any X-Wing does.

So yes they can handle small craft...but in comparison to X-Wings and their ilk...no, I don't think it's happening.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 05:48am

Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:Borg drones are weak minded, a Jedi can persuade one (which means all since their collective consciousness) to do anything he wants.

Incorrect. The Borg Hive mind is essentially one mind, made up of billions of other minds. The phrase "two minds are better then one" come to mind.

Not to mention, since the Borg are not from the Star Wars galaxy every trick a Jedi had except with alter-jedi powers would be useless against the Borg Collective.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 05:50am

Admiral Johnason wrote:Actually, the Borg can take down starfighters pretty easy. In The Best of Both Worlds II, the cube removed a small group of fighters with ease.

Exactly. Can you say graviton torpedoes? I can. Heh.

Grand Moff Yenchin · Post by **Grand Moff Yenchin** » 2003-02-10 07:50am

Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:Borg drones are weak minded, a Jedi can persuade one (which means all since their collective consciousness) to do anything he wants.

IMHO, they're weak minded mainly because they still have a biological brain, unlike droids who are programmed, the droids brain, although connected to the collective, still has its own mind which is suppressed. Those who were disconnected didn't go brain dead, they just 'woke up', which proves that they still have a consciousness. Those with a so-called recessive mutation could even go to Unimatrix-Zero. Anyway, since that part of their brain is supressed, it is relatively weak, if a Jedi controls this part and override it on the collective, then something bad could happen to the Borg.

Zaku-chan · Post by **Zaku-chan** » 2003-02-10 12:59pm

Helm wrote:Not to mention, since the Borg are not from the Star Wars galaxy every trick a Jedi had except with alter-jedi powers would be useless against the Borg Collective.

What, are you saying the Force doesn't exist in the ST galaxy? Wishful thinking, pal.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-02-10 01:09pm

why the hell must a decisive victory be called an 'ass-rape'? in almost every thread sombody says "no way the GE would ass-rape the feddies" or "are you stupid! the Vorlons would ass-rape the klingons" can we have one 'vs.' thread without any ass-rape comments?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-10 01:34pm

Helm wrote:Incorrect. The Borg Hive mind is essentially one mind, made up of billions of other minds. The phrase "two minds are better then one" come to mind.

ONLY if those two minds are allowed to act independently. If they just blindly follow orders like drones do, it doesn't amount to squat.

Not to mention, since the Borg are not from the Star Wars galaxy every trick a Jedi had except with alter-jedi powers would be useless against the Borg Collective.

Back that claim up with evidence.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-10 01:35pm

Helm wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:Actually, the Borg can take down starfighters pretty easy. In The Best of Both Worlds II, the cube removed a small group of fighters with ease.
Exactly. Can you say graviton torpedoes? I can. Heh.

Can you say, "Fed ships suck"?

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 02:33pm

Zaku-chan wrote:
Helm wrote:Not to mention, since the Borg are not from the Star Wars galaxy every trick a Jedi had except with alter-jedi powers would be useless against the Borg Collective.
What, are you saying the Force doesn't exist in the ST galaxy? Wishful thinking, pal.

Go read the NJO books. The Vong are from outside the Star Wars galaxy. They do not have midicholorians, the parasites that make the Force what it is. Therefore, you cannot effect them with control or sense Jedi powers, only alter (move object, for a example, to throw something at them).

The same apply to the Borg. All a Jedi would sense, when trying to take over a Borg mind or if a Sith tried to Force choke them, would be nothing. The Jedi/Sith in question would not sense the Borg in the Force. The Borg would not have any known Force signature.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 02:35pm

Darth Servo wrote:Can you say, "Fed ships suck"?

Can you say, bias answer? *chuckles*

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-10 02:39pm

Actually the Vong exist on some bizarre other aspect of the Force...they are not seperate from it. Jacen does find this out.

And the Fed ships do suck in many terms of performace, in comparison to most of SW starfighters.

What bias...it's like saying Pinto versus a Ferrari in race and saying the Pinto sucks...it does, it is by far the worse of the two performers in many elements.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 02:40pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Helm wrote:Incorrect. The Borg Hive mind is essentially one mind, made up of billions of other minds. The phrase "two minds are better then one" come to mind.
ONLY if those two minds are allowed to act independently. If they just blindly follow orders like drones do, it doesn't amount to squat.
Not to mention, since the Borg are not from the Star Wars galaxy every trick a Jedi had except with alter-jedi powers would be useless against the Borg Collective.
Back that claim up with evidence.

I did actually. I answered and gave proof/evidence explaining that the Borg, like the Vong, are outside the Force. They have no midicholorians, the parasites that make the Force what it is. You can not effect the Vong, nor the Borg, with control or sense Jedi powers, only alter (move object is a example).

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-10 02:44pm

Actually you did no such thing since the Vong have been proven to be within the Force...and what possible extrapolation are you making believeing because they are not of SW universe they are not endowed with the Force.

They are living regardless of their status...you are literally claiming because of one element(which the Vong do not have as well...but are proven to be within the Force, Jacen proves this is Traitor) that somehow every single being in the universe does not posses the Force...when the Force communicates with the Midis...by no means do the Midis produce the Force thus a poor analogy.

So the Borg do have the Force, because every living thing does, whether or not they can communicate with said thing is an entirely different story.[/i]

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 02:46pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Actually the Vong exist on some bizarre other aspect of the Force...they are not seperate from it. Jacen does find this out.

And the Fed ships do suck in many terms of performace, in comparison to most of SW starfighters.

What bias...it's like saying Pinto versus a Ferrari in race and saying the Pinto sucks...it does, it is by far the worse of the two performers in many elements.

I was waiting for someone to bring this up. Kudos to you Ghost Rider!

Yes, Jacen (and I'll even assume Vergere as well) have what is called the Vong Sense. They can sense Vong in the Force. I believe the way it works is that even though the Vong are not present in the Force, they do emmit this Force void around them. Think of it as a disconnecting computer or printer on a LAN server. It may not read it, it may seem to not exist by the LAN's devices (the Force, in this case), but the void it creates, the bubble in a sense, you know it's there whether the LAN does or not.

I hope that's a good enough analogy.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-10 02:51pm

Even if the Borg do exist within the force it seem likely that they exist on a different level of it like the Vong so to Jedi it will still seem like the Borg are absent from the force.

Helm: The Vongs place in the force is like Infrared to Visual light in he EM spectrum, its there but a normal unaided human (or in this case Jedi) can't perceive it.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 02:57pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Actually you did no such thing since the Vong have been proven to be within the Force...and what possible extrapolation are you making believeing because they are not of SW universe they are not endowed with the Force.

They are living regardless of their status...you are literally claiming because of one element(which the Vong do not have as well...but are proven to be within the Force, Jacen proves this is Traitor) that somehow every single being in the universe does not posses the Force...when the Force communicates with the Midis...by no means do the Midis produce the Force thus a poor analogy.

So the Borg do have the Force, because every living thing does, whether or not they can communicate with said thing is an entirely different story.[/i]

Ghost Rider, it was established in Episode 1 what makes up the Force. It's the midicholorians. If you want to just throw that out the window, then we should just end this now because you're telling me that Cannon/Lucas approved material is not valid to you. (Not that I like the fact that they introduced Midicholorians into Star Wars... it took the entire MYTH of the Force out of it. Now all you need is a blood sample and you're on your way to becoming the greatest Jedi ever...)

So, if anything, they could come up with the Borg Sense, like they did with the Vong Sense. But until we read more NJO, we won't know how much the Force can effect them. But, as we know *and pulls out his damn sourcebooks* we know that Control and Sense powers will not work on anyone outside of the Star Wars galaxy. New Jedi Order Sourcebook. Authors are JD Wiker with Steve Miller. ISBN 0-7869-2777-1.

Now, I'll say this. If the Borg assimilated anyone from the Star Wars galaxy, assimilating the midicholorians as well, would the Borg begin to attempt to mass produce the midicholorians? To add it's distinctiveness to the Collective, without knowing what it really does? Then the Force would be able to lay the smack down on the Collective.

But I think we have all begun to miss the point of this thread (myself included). It's the Vong, versus the Borg Collective here. In any case, a setting should need to be set.

Do the Borg find the Vong, or do the Vong find the Borg? And from there, we decide...