What stops Starfleet from building more ships?

[Alyeska]

First, the Federation at best stalemated a war against the Cardassians. Why wouldn't the Federation ratchet up their shipbuilding efforts in a period of constant tension with another great power?

Do we really have that many details as to what the character of the Federation/Cardassian war looked like? Was it a full on nation versus nation battle like in WWII, or was it more like a political squabble with minimal actual military fighting like most so many trade wars between European powers in the 1600s-1700s? It should also be remembred that it only takes a single generation for one power to leave another in the dust.

The Feds did so badly that they had to cede several colonies to the Union. That was what inspired the Maquis. And instead of supporting the Maquis and essentially making it a Federation puppet, they attacked it at every opportunity which makes no sense... unless they were afraid.

I consider it more likely that the Federation put very little effort into the war. A Galaxy or a Nebula could shrug off just about anything the Cardassians did. And two Galor class ships could hardly scratch a Galaxy and a Vorcha in later episodes. It seems likely that the Federation fought a purely defensive war. Given their rather pacifistic nature I doubt they conducted offensive operations against the Cardassians. So the Cardassians potentially have weaker ships and lesser technology, but they have the initiative against an enemy who won't fight back proactively and also has other concerns (Romulans, Klingons). So the Cardassians fight tooth and nail and probably get a few gains. They fight a major power in the area and eventually get a peace treaty as the Federation has had enough. Its favorable to the Cardassians to a degree.

Yeah, I can see that as very likely given the political nature of the Federation and their pacifistic nature. There is no reason the Federation couldn't have stomped the Cardassians hard for what they tried to pull.

[Stark]

So they didn't for ... no reason? In TNG Galors don't suck THAT bad, and Fedder fleet strength was pretty anemic (pre-inflation). The Obsidian Order fleet (built in secret over xyz time etc etc) was bigger than any Fed fleet we see pre-DS9, and the Cardies WERE a militaristic bunch.

It's plausible that the war was hurriedly ended for other reasons (politics etc) but that doesn't mean we have to say 'they could have won but didn't because they preferred to give away some colonies'.

[Batman]

The Feds didn't seem to fear the Cardassians all that much and their indifference over the Cardassian treatment of the colonies they got indicates that they didn't particularly worry about losing them in the first place, and might have been happier without them. 'Sure, you can have those colonies. Knock yourselves out. Now YOU have to deal with them.' Especially as they DID turn out to be a pain in the ass.

[Stark]

They turned out to be a pain in the ass FOR THE FEDERATION, that they had to furiously oppress and propaganda against to prevent the Cardies that they don't fear at all from starting another war the Fed would easily win because Galors suck.

The less you think the Feds did poorly vs the Cardies, the more it was a political, social and foreign policy disaster.

[Stofsk]

The idea that the Galor class ships can't scratch a Galaxy class Federation ship is a bit disingenuous. During TNG, how many Galaxy class ships were there? Half a dozen? What was the TNG fleet mainly comprised of? Old Excelsiors, Ambassador-class 'heavy cruisers' and Miranda class ships, with a handful of Nebula class ships and unseen* frigates (New Orleans class?). Predominantly, Excelsiors though. And Excelsiors were new when Kirk was kicking around. Why is it inconceivable that the Galor class is a match for the frontline ships the Federation had at the time? Especially when we see how well those Excelsiors and Mirandas do in the war episodes of DS9.

* other than in the 'graveyard scene' in BOBW part 2.

[Patroklos]

The Feds did so badly that they had to cede several colonies to the Union. That was what inspired the Maquis. And instead of supporting the Maquis and essentially making it a Federation puppet, they attacked it at every opportunity which makes no sense... unless they were afraid.

That doesn't really answer the question. The French/Dutch/Spanish/Portugese/English ceded border territory and colonies to each others constantly over centuries and it wasn't always because of complete military defeat. Sometimes it was circumstantial, the other powers momentarily aligning against one. Sometimes it was economic. Sometimes it was because they were too busy doing something else to devote attention to that sphere. Sometimes it was a trade to secure peace.

The point is, there are any number of reasons for the outcome to turn out the way it did, the assumption it could only be because the Federation lost a dragged out all out war is just that.

I consider it more likely that the Federation put very little effort into the war.

I think this is probably most likely the case. I simply wasn't a priority for the Federation or maybe it was somewhat, but they were simply consumed with something more of a priority at the time. That would actually far better explain the bitterness of the Maquis if they were more sold out as opposed to just the victims of an actual defeat.

[Darth Wong]

I consider it more likely that the Federation put very little effort into the war. A Galaxy or a Nebula could shrug off just about anything the Cardassians did.

Then again, those two classes appear to be the best they have to offer, and they would not have had them during the Fed/Card war. At the start of TNG, the Galaxy class is so new that they can't stop talking about how new it is. It could be that the Feds' development cycle just happened to turn out a new class with a dramatically upgraded warp core or something and the Cardies were a few years behind. It could also be that their starship development had stagnated until the Fed/Card war, and that the war actually spurred them to develop the GCS.

[tim31]

I'm on board with that last point. There must have been, for one reason or another, a massive slowdown or some serious bureaucratic holdups for the GCS to take so long to get into service. I know we've been over this before.

[Big Phil]

The Galaxy isn't designed as a front line warship, however, rather as a long range explorer capable of defending itself against most major threats. Frankly, the entire Federation ship design philosophy is pretty stupid and makes comparisons difficult. Perhaps one of the reasons why the Federation refitted Mirandas and Excelsiors is because they're cheaper and more cost-effective than Nebula's and Galaxy's.

For example, perhaps 2 Excelsiors are as capable and powerful as a single Galaxy, but each costs only 1/4 as much to refit and operate. In other words, you could field four Excelsiors for the price of a single Galaxy, and get twice the warmaking potential.

[Samuel]

That doesn't really answer the question. The French/Dutch/Spanish/Portugese/English ceded border territory and colonies to each others constantly over centuries and it wasn't always because of complete military defeat. Sometimes it was circumstantial, the other powers momentarily aligning against one. Sometimes it was economic. Sometimes it was because they were too busy doing something else to devote attention to that sphere. Sometimes it was a trade to secure peace.

The point is, there are any number of reasons for the outcome to turn out the way it did, the assumption it could only be because the Federation lost a dragged out all out war is just that.

Both sides ceded colonies to the other. However the Cardassian Union is much smaller in size than the UFP, with the correspondingly smaller resource base and wealth. Not to mention losing would inspire other border clashes because it means you can fight a limited war with the Federation and win. An organization that big might not be able to defend its entire border, but if so it should fight more fiercely in order to make its enemies realize the cost of war is too high.

[Alyeska]

I consider it more likely that the Federation put very little effort into the war. A Galaxy or a Nebula could shrug off just about anything the Cardassians did.

Then again, those two classes appear to be the best they have to offer, and they would not have had them during the Fed/Card war. At the start of TNG, the Galaxy class is so new that they can't stop talking about how new it is. It could be that the Feds' development cycle just happened to turn out a new class with a dramatically upgraded warp core or something and the Cardies were a few years behind. It could also be that their starship development had stagnated until the Fed/Card war, and that the war actually spurred them to develop the GCS.

That is a distinct possibility. But in the first episode that introduces Ensign Ro, the Galor is reported to be the best warship that the Cardassians are capable of. And we still saw it primarily in use all the way through the end of DS9 with no other ship to replace it directly or even compliment it in the same size category. While the Federation had older ships, they also had newer ones and a fair number of Galaxy's. I rather think the Cardassians were behind the curve on their ship technology.

[Stofsk]

I thought the Cardassians had a new ship class as part of the TDIC fleet?

[Bounty]

I thought the Cardassians had a new ship class as part of the TDIC fleet?

The Keldon. But that's just a Galor with a hump - the same model with a pod glued onto the back. If you go by dialogue there's some wiggle room for other Cardassian ships, but on-screen all we saw were the Galor and its derivative and the Hideki.

[Thanas]

I wouldn't say the Cardassians are behind the curve just because they use the same ship model - the klingons still use the BoP model, for example.

[Stark]

Even Fed ships are seriously upgraded - look at the fanon shit about 'War GCSes' etc.

[Batman]

I wouldn't say the Cardassians are behind the curve just because they use the same ship model - the klingons still use the BoP model, for example.

The Federation still uses plenty of older model ships too as has been elaborated at length in this thread. The difference is they do use NEWER ships, too, as do the Klingons (like the Vor'Cha) while the Cardies apparently don't.

[Coalition]

The Federation still uses plenty of older model ships too as has been elaborated at length in this thread. The difference is they do use NEWER ships, too, as do the Klingons (like the Vor'Cha) while the Cardies apparently don't.

The only thing I can think of is that the Cardassians upgrade their ships steadily, rather than building new designs. It would cost a bit in terms of efficiency, but not needing to build a brand new hull would help out. Just design the original ship to handle upgrades over its lifetime, and each ship can be refitted to bring it up to standards. Whenever an upgrade kit comes out, the oldest ships are refitted first. So if the have Mk 1 through Mk 5 Galors in service, and Central Command designs Mk 6, they will refit the Mk 1 Galors first.

By the time its armor becomes obsolete, the ship is likely nearing the end of its design life. At that point, scrap the hull, and use the materials to build its replacement. Transfer the crew and name over to the new hull, and its tradition lives on.

[Darth Wong]

I consider it more likely that the Federation put very little effort into the war. A Galaxy or a Nebula could shrug off just about anything the Cardassians did.

Then again, those two classes appear to be the best they have to offer, and they would not have had them during the Fed/Card war. At the start of TNG, the Galaxy class is so new that they can't stop talking about how new it is. It could be that the Feds' development cycle just happened to turn out a new class with a dramatically upgraded warp core or something and the Cardies were a few years behind. It could also be that their starship development had stagnated until the Fed/Card war, and that the war actually spurred them to develop the GCS.

That is a distinct possibility. But in the first episode that introduces Ensign Ro, the Galor is reported to be the best warship that the Cardassians are capable of. And we still saw it primarily in use all the way through the end of DS9 with no other ship to replace it directly or even compliment it in the same size category. While the Federation had older ships, they also had newer ones and a fair number of Galaxy's. I rather think the Cardassians were behind the curve on their ship technology.

How does that in any way refute the idea? You're still clinging to this "Fed ship could easily overpower Card ship in one particular battle, so it must have always been that way in every battle, throughout their entire history" idea.

[Connor MacLeod]

It has occured to me that to build ships you need resources, and we dont know the actual logistics involved for Federation starship construction. It might be simple enough to just take resources from the nearby asteorid system, but its also quite possible they may need specialized mateirals/components shipped from elsewhere. If that's the case, then wartime COULD either slow down or halt starship production if the vessels normally used in hauling were recalled to frontline services - we know that the Enterprise was used on more than one occasion as a transport ship, and the "multi-role" function of the GCS is also well known. That the Feds might have had others ships of similar nature devoted to shipping ("Armed Merchant cruisers or Auxiliary cruisers of WW1 IIRC) but are also fairly well armed (by their stnadards) is certainly likely, and their absence would put a crimp in materials transport (It may also be that the dedicated transport fleets they do have have to pick up the slack, and may have to prioritise certain kinds of resources so certain industries, like shipbuilding, would suffer.)

Alternately, the above may also lead the Federation (if they still HAD some shipbuilding capability) to devote more resources to smaller attack vessels than bigger ones (CF an analogue to fighter and torpedo boat analogues) they might build larger numbers of those (A better use of resources at least.)

Further, starship facilities may have been used to refurbish older ships for frontline use (As I recall with the Ent-C, technological advancement between TOS and TNG was pretty glacial, so they could have had a fair number of ships built up in the decades, and it might not take much effort to bring them to a level where they could be effective against at least some of the Dominion's forces.) Which limits construction of newer designs.

[Stofsk]

It has occured to me that to build ships you need resources, and we dont know the actual logistics involved for Federation starship construction. It might be simple enough to just take resources from the nearby asteorid system, but its also quite possible they may need specialized mateirals/components shipped from elsewhere.

Dilithium.

That said, I never liked how in Star Trek IV Spock just 'invents' (*coughpullsoutofhisasscough*) the dilithium reenergising-whatever technique in such a casual way you have to wonder why nobody else thought of it.

[Darth Wong]

Personally, I have to wonder how much difference the spaceframe really makes. It's not an aircraft, so aerodynamics are completely irrelevant. It appears to simply hold equipment, and judging from the Defiant, it doesn't need much space to do that. The only difference might be "warp field geometry" or some other made-up technobabble nonsense relating to the exact shape and placement of the warp nacelles, but that would only affect its top speed at maximum warp, not its ability to fight in the big furballs that characterized the Dominion War. Otherwise it's just a matter of how much shield generation capacity it has, how many weapons it has, etc. And those systems can be upgraded as well.

As evidence, I present the USS Lakota, which was able to take on the USS Defiant evenly despite apparently being based on the old Excelsior spaceframe. Is there any reason whatsoever to believe that old spaceframes in Star Trek can't be upgraded to go nose-to-nose with modern designs? I really think Alyeska is seriously overstating the importance of the fact that the Cardassians don't bring out new spaceframes.

[Steve]

I really think Alyeska is seriously overstating the importance of the fact that the Cardassians don't bring out new spaceframes.

I presume that they prefer that specific hullform and thus new "classes" are more along the lines of changing the equipment inside, maybe having the ships being a bit wider or a bit longer or taller, etc, to accomodate newer equipment.

Thus instead of upgrading from, say, the Constitution to the Excelsior, they just go from something like a Mark III Galor to a Mark IV. Still the same basic silhouette and hull frame but newer weaponry, electronic/sensor systems, shield generators, engines, etc.

Though to bring up engines, size of a warp drive assembly may determine how it's effectiveness works. Wouldn't reactor size determine power output as well?

[Darth Wong]

Thus instead of upgrading from, say, the Constitution to the Excelsior, they just go from something like a Mark III Galor to a Mark IV. Still the same basic silhouette and hull frame but newer weaponry, electronic/sensor systems, shield generators, engines, etc.

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking as well.

Though to bring up engines, size of a warp drive assembly may determine how it's effectiveness works. Wouldn't reactor size determine power output as well?

Who knows? There are a lot of unknowns when discussing imaginary technology after all. For all we know, the reactor itself is not the problem and it's the energy conversion equipment which is the real problem. After all, nobody ever talks about how you're supposed to efficiently get the energy out of a M/AM reaction in a sealed chamber and convert it into more useful forms. People assume that the whole system looks like this:

M/AM reaction -> Energy release -> Profit!

It must be much more complex than that. In modern nuclear power plants, the reactor is actually miniscule compared to the entire plant. Most of the bulk is taken up by support equipment.

[Steve]

That's true. It's really not a quantifiable thing.

It may explain certain "advantages" of the Defiant's design, as it is it was apparently a big thing that the Defiant used direct warp core power to energize its phasers (if I recall the Kira/Clone-Riker conversation from "Defiant" correctly). Maybe the Defiant's compactness and single-hull frame is meant to enable a superior energy conversion system that allows it to get more "bang for the buck" so to speak, reactor-output wise.

But, hrm, this is beginning to stray off-topic I think.

To touch on the Cardie-Federation topic, I always got the impression that the Cardassians may have been generally behind the UFP technologically, though not immensely so, but were also improving to permit becoming an up-and-coming power gaining prominence as the TNG era wound on to the DS9 years. With their totalitarian state and a command economy geared for military production the Cardassian military could have become quite an impressive military machine compared to their technological capability, stymied against the UFP due to a marginal-and-closing gap in capability against newer Fed designs (newer-flight Excelsior and Miranda-class, the Ambassador-class, etc.) and other distractions (DS9, for instance, made mention of an 18 year long conflict between the Cardassians and Klingons over "Betreka Nebula"). In the end the Border War becomes a bloody stalemate (also possibly a divisive issue for the Federation) and with the UFP about to roll out a new generation of ships (Galaxy, Nebula) that would restore their technological advantages on the front, the Cardies and the Federation had reasons to sue for peace.

[Big Phil]

Is there any reason whatsoever to believe that old spaceframes in Star Trek can't be upgraded to go nose-to-nose with modern designs? I really think Alyeska is seriously overstating the importance of the fact that the Cardassians don't bring out new spaceframes.

No, and the real world agrees with you. Refitting and upgrading old ships is pretty common, limited only by what navies are willing to spend on old hulls to make them more capable. Look at the frequent upgrades Sumner and Gearing class destroyers received throughout their lifetimes; some are even still in service, substantially more powerful than they were during WWII.