First RPG

[Lazarus]

After some hardcore geeking out in the form of a SW marathon, my mate suggested we should have a bash at an RPG. Problem is, we don't really know where to begin, having only a vague idea of how they are even played.
So, what SW RPG's are there? How easy is it to play one through in an evening?
Thanks

[DPDarkPrimus]

The best Star Wars RPG is the old West End Games D6 game, because the system is incredibly easy to learn and unlike a lot of RPGs it allows you to do anything, even if you aren't "trained" in it. Being trained just gives you more dice to roll.

[TheFeniX]

At first, I thought he was talking about RPG video games, which would encompass all of KOTOR and..... KOTOR. That's if we're talking about anything near recent.

I'll give a "second" to the west end SW RPG. It's easy to learn and, although we never ran it, the included campaign in the original sourcebook could be played through in a few hours if you didn't get bogged down in the details. For the completely uninitiated, there's a step-by-step run down on how a fight in a cantina might go down, complete with "Roll X dice, if you rolled higher than Y, go to step Z."

[Styphon]

Or you could just run Star Wars through something generic and rules-lite, like Wushu.

[Hotfoot]

Okay, here are the various Star Wars pen and paper RPGs I've seen over the years:

1. West End Game's D6 Star Wars:
-Pros: Fun, relatively easy to learn, throw lots of dice
-Cons: Way damage is handled can result in an excellent blaster shot doing no damage at all, extremely hard to find if you don't already have it.

2. D20 Star Wars (v.1 and 2):
-Pros: Basically the 3.0-3.5 rule set for D&D/D20 Modern with a few modifications. Easy to translate for long time D&D players, should be easy to get the books for cheap, having been replaced with Saga edition.
-Cons: Stupid Light Side/Dark Side distinctions, usual D20 complaints, etc. and so forth.

3. Star Wars Saga Edition:
1. Pros: New, can be found in any book store with plenty of supplements, has a lot of positive aspects from D&D 4E while still being firmly rooted in 3.x, has a decent way of handling the Force.
2. Cons: Still D20, can be a pain getting the minis you want due to random mini boxes.

Those are the "official" ones, and the only one I can say to shun is #2. #1 can be fun, if you can find it, but #3 won't waste your time, so enjoy it if you can.

West End Games did produce a new line of RPG books, of course, and the D6 Space book has powers that are almost lifted word for word from the old Jedi power list. Of course, damn near any system can fit for Star Wars, but that's not saying much.

[Artemas]

WEG has decided to put their stuff out there as open source, so a pdf of d6 space can be found and downloaded (legally). Check their forums under "open d6".

And I second getting the SW D6 stuff. Its great, and has the best source book for any RPG: the Imperial Source book. I wish more screenwriters and authors would put this much effort into their works.

[Stofsk]

-Cons: Stupid Light Side/Dark Side distinctions,

What do you mean?

[Old Plympto]

Being a SWD6 GM since 1989 and I have a session to run this Sunday afternoon, my biased preference points you in the direction of the WEG version, if you can find copies. (After using the 1st and 2nd Edition book for years, I finally got a 2nd Edition Revised and Expanded core book a couple of years back.) Easy to play and GM, and you can whip up a quick scenario with NPCs in an hour or less once you have the hang of things.

If you're looking for stats converted to Saga Edition, check out this page:

http://www.4shared.com/dir/9688168/f35b ... aring.html

... specifically the "SAGA to D6 Conversion" section. (Most of the stats converted are ones without official D6 stats.)

Edit: If you anyone's wondering these aren't pirated material, just fan-made pdfs with fan-converted stats.

[Eleas]

I'll put this succinctly: there are two Star Wars RPGs that are both, in their own ways, damned good.

WEG Star Wars 2nd Ed Revised and Expanded (a mouthful to say, admittedly) is the best version of the WEG set. It's fast-paced and a lot quicker to set up for a one-shot adventure. It plays quickly, fluidly, and with a directness that encourages improvisation and gung-ho heroics. Cons lie in the immense power creep of the various splatbooks and the like, plus the fact that the rules for Jedi break the game on square one. But if you want to do an old-school Star Wars smugglers-against-the-empire scenario or the like, the WEG version plain rocks. I'd even argue against buying any sourcebooks whatsoever; it's going to be better to just improvise.

The SAGA edition, in contrast, is a bit slower to set up. It's an immensely improved version of the d20 engine as compared to its contemporaries (D&D 3.5), and infinitely more streamlined. You may wish to grab hold of some sourcebooks, but just like with WEG, the core rules work fine and SAGA has its own power creep issues with later splatbooks. Scum and Villainy and Starships of the Galaxy are both very, very good, though, so go for them if you have the money. SAGA is not quite as fast and loose with the rules, but it is solid and has quite a cinematic wounding system going for it. Unlike the WEG version, you can have Force-users without everything turning to shit. The core game is awesome; recent books have however just introduced more and more useless cruft, which is a mark against it, I'm afraid.

I also own both pre-SAGA d20 Star Wars RPGs. Suffice to say that I felt really bad about giving them away, as I would honestly consider them more of an insult than a gift. They embody all the worst aspects of pre 4th - edition D&D design, and are basically an early nineties-style dungeon crawling engine with the logo "Star Wars" painted on it in crayon. Poorly layouted, with poor rules, these games only existed because somewhere, someone with the surname Slavicsec thought "hey, why don't we see what happens if we turn Star Wars into D&D?"

Well, we saw what happened. It sucked.

[Hotfoot]

-Cons: Stupid Light Side/Dark Side distinctions,

What do you mean?

Simply using certain powers in the original D20 Star Wars system (Pre-Saga) gave you Dark Side points, which were a pain in the ass to get rid of and it didn't take many to turn you from pure Jedi to Dark Lord of the Sith. Given the number of times we've seen Jedi use powers listed as "Dark Side" by that rulebook, such as Force Choke, well, it's more than a little silly.

[Jade Falcon]

There's also a crapload of supplemental books for the WEG Star Wars, though they are variable in quality. The Stock Ships one for example is nice. The system for the WEG one is easy to pick up and play and feels right, despite the complaints of how ships like ISD's statted out.

[Stofsk]

-Cons: Stupid Light Side/Dark Side distinctions,

What do you mean?

Simply using certain powers in the original D20 Star Wars system (Pre-Saga) gave you Dark Side points, which were a pain in the ass to get rid of and it didn't take many to turn you from pure Jedi to Dark Lord of the Sith. Given the number of times we've seen Jedi use powers listed as "Dark Side" by that rulebook, such as Force Choke, well, it's more than a little silly.

Ah fair enough. Although some force powers are indelibly linked to the dark side, like Force Lightning (aka Sith Lightning by Mr Flannel Shirt himself), and IIRC Force Choke was used by a Jedi against Grievous during one of the Clone Wars cartoons, but that may have been a naughty thing for a Jedi to do anyway (the situation was unmistakebly extreme though) - I don't know if choke was used by anyone else.

I agree with you on the DS/Force points problem. Unless Force points are awarded more often, getting rid of DS points becomes problematic. But then, isn't that what the canon says it should be like? Once you start down the path of the dark side, it'll fuck you up forever.

Although I am interested in how Saga Edition handles it.

[Hotfoot]

Ah fair enough. Although some force powers are indelibly linked to the dark side, like Force Lightning (aka Sith Lightning by Mr Flannel Shirt himself), and IIRC Force Choke was used by a Jedi against Grievous during one of the Clone Wars cartoons, but that may have been a naughty thing for a Jedi to do anyway (the situation was unmistakebly extreme though) - I don't know if choke was used by anyone else.

I agree with you on the DS/Force points problem. Unless Force points are awarded more often, getting rid of DS points becomes problematic. But then, isn't that what the canon says it should be like? Once you start down the path of the dark side, it'll fuck you up forever.

Although I am interested in how Saga Edition handles it.

Luke also used force choke in Jabba's Palace, etc. and so forth. In Saga, the intention of one's actions are what set someone down the path of the Dark Side, so performing an evil act will do the job just fine. Using Dark Side powers works too, but the only purely Dark Side powers in Saga Edition are Dark Rage and Force Lightning. However, using the force in anger causes issues as well.

[Lazarus]

The Saga edition seems to be the easiest and cheapest to get hold of, so I'll go for that.

Having never played an RPG anymore, do any veterans have some tips (I'm probably going to be GM)?

[Stark]

Don't let your players read the rules. Emphasize drama over teh lootz. Keep it fun and know when to stop.

[Old Plympto]

Talk to your players. Find out what kind of campaign they would like to start out with. Military campaign where the PCs are all part of a squad or platoon? An espionage campaign where they carry out 007 or Mission Impossible shenanigans as a team? A smuggler campaign - illegal cargo hauling? A tramp freighter campaign - legal cargo hauling? Jedi campaign? A mixture of any of these or more?

Start will small adventures. Once all I did was just map out encounters on it and ran the PCs through it till they finish the map, spicing it up with betrayal from friendly NPCs and threats being not what they first appear to be and such. Encounters can be diversified with a mix of gunfights, or trying to deceive a guard, or to sneak across a location with people looking for you, or animal attacks, or chases on vehicles, or fighter dogfights, or natural disasters like an avalanche or earthquake, or bad weather like a sandstorm or a blizzard... just mix and match 5 or 6 per session.

Draw on movies, TV series, books or comics you've read for encounter ideas.

If possible have a simple storyline to tie the encounters together, instead of having them hack n slashing from one place to another.

Don't be afraid to ham it up with out-of-character cracks referenced from pop culture. If you and your buddies are laughing madly enjoying yourselves, you're doing it right. Also, don't be afraid to refer to stuff you're not sure of from the Star Wars movies or books. It's your universe, it's up to you to adhere to canon or not.

Like Stark says, have fun.

[Jade Falcon]

Simple tip if not a bit obvious, try to encourage a mixed party. The WEG version for instance worked off character templates like Bounty Hunter, Smuggler etc, and I found personally that 9 times out of 10 a lot of players, especially newer ones wanted to be Bounty Hunters.

[Lazarus]

Right I'll bear that in mind, any idea how many people can play? Could be 8 or so of us...

[Jade Falcon]

As far as I am aware, 8 is usually about the upper limit for a game. It's quite a lot for someone new to gaming, more so for someone trying GM'ing for the first time. It really depends how quickly you pick up the rules and what sort of people you're playing with. If they're the type that are a bit more easy going and willing to overlook your mistakes, and you will make some , its fine, if you get a bunch of borderline pyschopath hardasses its different. If you know at least some of these people personally it can make things a bit easier.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

8 is quite a bit for a first-time GM. 4 to 6 is the most commonly recommended number on most game boxes, and my own observations back this up. If you have 7 or more it can be a challenge to manage all the rolls and keep track, and the players tend to be less involved in the game. They tend to keep quiet and follow a leader when you have that many, especially if the game is run using a delayed-feedback format like text or (even worse) post.

[Jade Falcon]

I've played in many games, and 6 really was the comfortable upper limit. Some players and GM's can go higher but personally I wouldn't recommend it.

[Eleas]

Honestly, four is pretty much my upper limit as a GM. It can get pretty damn involved in the character scenes, and everyone wants their piece said. Constantly.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

After some hardcore geeking out in the form of a SW marathon, my mate suggested we should have a bash at an RPG. Problem is, we don't really know where to begin, having only a vague idea of how they are even played.
So, what SW RPG's are there? How easy is it to play one through in an evening?
Thanks

Personally, I'm fond of West End Games' old D6 Star Wars RPG. The rules were pretty easy to pick up quickly, and the GM had a lot of leeway for making decisions to speed up or enhance the game.

As for how quickly you can play the game, it really depends on what you want to get out of it. You won't get the full use out of the rules or the character dynamics unless you play a campaign or story over a period of many sessions. For a quick game without too much planning, your best bet is to have people choose stock characters from the back of the RPG book and play a simple scenario, such as "escape from the ISD" or "get the disk back to the rebels without getting caught by city police". Just keep in mind that you are trying to tell a story as a group, and thus the GM is going to have to have an idea of where things are going while the other players will have to keep in character and add some depth to the group dynamics to make the story interesting.

[xammer99]

I've been running SW Saga for closing in on a year now and I really do like it, but some tips for a new GM.

1. Limit: Limit your players to the Core Book, and with anything from ANY other source, make them check with you first. That goes for races/talents/feats/powers/classes, etc... This goes triple for web resources. Also you can find a ton of them at the Wizard's Forum, Saga-Edition.com, and Fandomcomics.com

2. Plan: Make at least an outline of the plot you wanna run if you can before hand. Since you are new, you might go with something pre-done just to experiment with such as the Dawn of Defiance campaign up on Wizards.com. It is set just after the Clone Wars and is not bad. Once you get the hang of things, then write your own stuff.

3. Read: For godsake read the rules repeatedly and take notes! And read it like its a book and don't just jump around with it. It'll help you a lot in picking things up.

4. Materials: Pick up the Core book, Scum & Villainy, and Ships of the Galaxy at least. The Threats book isn't bad either for whipping together quick NPCs. Also, if you have access to MS Excel, then get the SagaForge character sheet, it speeds up NPC creation IMMENSELY!

5. Maps: SWSE is one of the better games for minis, there are tons of dirt cheap ones out there, so snag a nice 1" grid map if ya can to play on with weterase markers. They carry'em at any gaming store. OR if you have access to a printer, then pre-draw them in excel (96px to the inch) and then just print them out with the margins turned off. I do quite a few like that and it's let me make a ton of interesting battlefields. Also, if you are using lots of generic minis, number them ahead of time with a lil white tag or something. Makes it SO much easier to keep track of things.

6. Rules: Don't get lost in the rules and dice rolls since the goal is to have fun. Don't say no, just give it a DC and let the players try it. Also you don't have to announce the DC to'em if it'd be something particularly cool.

7. Practice: Make the first couple of games just battle royale type fights to let folks get some experience with the system. It'll help'em a lot and especially you. Then add in some story.

8. Order 66 Podcast: it is your friend and well worth listening too off of d20 Radio.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I keep seeing people mentioning minis in this thread. When did minis become part of the RPG experience? I've played more than a couple RPGs over the years and I don't ever recall a situation where miniatures were necessary; are they part of the new rules for Saga Edition, or are they just visual aids to keep the players focused?