The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Six Up

Post by Buritot »

Okay, the whole technical discussion aside since it's flying right over my head... I couldn't help but notice neither Michael nor Belial had any ideas for the raining fire without sky vulcanoes.
Upon discussing that with a few colleagues we came up with two yet undismissed possibilities.

The first was comets, since those are kind of hot and do fall from the sky. I assume Michael has a grasp of space and beyond, if only by overhearing conversations between humans alluding to planets. Nevertheless, that approach can be dismissed. Michael has no means to actually drop something from beyond the atmosphere, be that metroids or matter in general.

The second, however, may be possible. Its feasibility is currently depending on assumptions, so I guarantee for nothing.
Hydrogen. We know certain kinds of Demons and assume Angels as well chemically store hydrogen in their bodies and release it to inflate gas sacks which lessens their weight and makes wings a realistic method to keep airborne. They also know being shot will make the gaseous hydrogen explosively react with the surrounding air.
Now, what would happen if they could transport large amounts of hydrogen into the air and ignite it? It wouldn't explode in a Hollywood manner, sure, but I imagine it invoke the picture of the sky being aflame. Its effect would be propaganda at most, discounting airborne vehicles or critters.

Now, how could they produce such vast amounts of hydrogen? Since they aren't likely to produce it by poking holes in themselves and collecting the evacuating hydrogen I would put my bets on electrolysis. It is very easy to do (in the sense of not needing sophisticated technologies) and they can produce sufficient electricity a.k.a. magic without any technical support.

They logistics are shaky though. How could they store large amounts, or transport them to Earth? When they care to avoid detection portals won't be feasible.


In regard to Uriels rescue: Hell had a standing army and as such a fast response unit. If that is any indicator Heaven has, too. We have yet to see the soldiers of Heaven and I suppose extracting Uriel might be a way to test them in a small contingent.
I wouldn't put it beyond Michael to let Uriel be killed or do the deed himself and later claim Heavens WMD had been killed by humans.

As a side note, does Michael know about the portal detection employed by DIMO(N)? Maybe his human allies knew something was going on and informed him... Ah, wild mass guessing, indeed.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Six Up

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Temple of Everlasting Acquiescence, Eternal City, Heaven

They had to be around here somewhere. Lemuel-Lan-Michael looked around for one of the angels he and Michael had picked out as likely openings for the attempt to infiltrate the Second Conspiracy. It had been a careful choice. The subjects had to be high-ranking enough to have real knowledge of the Conspiracy, lowly enough to be impressed by Lemuel's rank, ambitious enough to value the rewards that bringing such a high-ranking angel into the Conspiracy would bring, and innocent enough to lack any suspicion over why this plum should fall into their specific laps. A demanding set of requirements to be sure.

It didn’t help that the thick, clinging clouds of incense made searching the sanctuary of the Temple difficult. Lemuel had the uneasy feeling that the ones he was searching for were there, only just out of sight. This was new territory for him. His previous investigations had always been from the outside, the investigator probing the unknown. Now, he was inside. Or, at least, that was where he wanted to be. It made his mind-set even less comfortable to know that he was on his own. He had no back-up, no group of hired humans or lowly Ishim to do the leg-work for him. Even Michael wasn't here to help him. Michael-Lan was away and would be for some time.

Where Michael-Lan had gone was technically a secret but word had already started to spread through the jewelled buildings and alabaster streets of the Eternal City. Uriel, the Sword and Scythe of the Peerless One Above All, was in desperate danger and Michael was on his way to personally rescue his old friend from the murderous intentions of the ruthless human killers. It was never spoken aloud of course, never mentioned in more than the most subdued of whispers, but the voices on the wind said that Uriel had failed in his attacks, that he had let the great Michael-Lan down and fled the scene of battle. Lemuel promised himself that when this investigation was completed, he would hunt down those 'voices on the wind', locate those quiet whisperers and haul them before the League of the Holy Court on charges of blasphemy. Uriel was the Sword and Scythe of the Eternal Father. For him to fail was inconceivable.

"Perpetiel-Lan-Paschar. It is a pleasure to meet you here. Does it not bring joy to your heart to take time from your onerous duties and give thanks for the Boundless Blessings that Our Eternal Father has bestowed upon us?"

The Bene Elohim turned around at Lemuel's voice and dropped to his knees, covering his face with his wings. "This is true, Most Lordly Ophanim. The One Above All bestows such gifts upon us that there are not enough hours in all of eternity to give thanks for them. Even knowing that, it brings joy to my heart to offer such adoration as is in my humble capacity. Most Noble One, may this humble one have the honor of knowing to whom I speak?"

"Of course. I am Samandiriel-Lan-Michael." Lemuel felt his spirit rebel as he told the lie here in the Eternal father's own temple but needs had to be filled when desperate circumstances demanded it. "It is the first time I have attended here. Truly this Temple does honor to the Lord Above All Others."

"It is but modest compared with the great bounties bestowed upon us." Perpetiel-Lan looked up from behind his wings. "And your presence here adds honor to our humble gathering."

"I was recommended here by friends who said that the devotion and worship of the congregation would restore my spirits. Come, friend, stand, there is no need for such humility. Compared with the Divine Presence, even the greatest of us is as nothing. Let us stand together in adoration of His Spirit."

Perpetiel-Lan rose to his feet, looking curiously at Lemuel. "Your spirits are troubled, Great One?"

Lemuel sighed, a touch theatrically. "I fear so. It is this war with the humans. It does not go well and my heart aches to think of the pain human defiance is causing Our Eternal Father. I ask myself, is there not more we can do to ease His burdens? Can we not give our strength, such as it is, to help shoulder the burdens of this war? My spirit cries out, 'thou shalt do more' yet I can find no way to satisfy this righteous craving."

"Would you permit this humble servant to offer your Greatness an opportunity to do more?"

"If this would ease my heart, I would be indebted."

"There is a small group of us, we assemble in private where there are no interruptions or distractions. Without those, we can concentrate our whole power into a chorus of adoration for The One Above Us All. Although it is tiny in comparison with His Great Power, perhaps it is of some little worth. You would be welcome to join us Most Noble One. If you would condescend to be seen with such lowly ones as us."

"Your kindness shows the greatness of your heart. I would be pleased to join you for adoration of The Most High."

"Then meet me here again, at the hour of Compline."

War Room, White House, Washington DC.

"It's not a weapon." Admiral Gary Roughead spoke wearily, repeating himself again. "Look, I don't think the crew on Normandy will be allowed to buy their own beer in San Diego for a long time to come, but they drove off Uriel with missiles, not some mystical death ray."

"But the reports we have say that the radar hurt him."

"It probably did, it’s a very powerful radar indeed and Uriel was, in its terms, very close to it. We have tight limitations on where the crew can be topside when the SPY-1 is operating. And we know from our experience with the Baldricks that they are sensitive to radar emissions. But it's not a viable weapon. Normandy burned out a significant proportion of her SPY-1 antenna faces during that engagement. I know, it was worth it and she saved San Diego in the process but she'll still be in dock for months and it'll cost a lot of money to fix her. For all that, the radar was a minor contributor to the battle at most."

"The ground crews found burned tissue at the point of impact."

"Most likely from the missile hits. Uriel's shot up and burned really bad, but we did it with missiles and that's the real problem. He ducked missiles once by jumping through a portal, the only reason we got him this time is because the Standard missiles arc up and over, they came at him from above, not below. He was simply looking the wrong way. We can be sure he won't make that mistake again. We have to get him with a weapon that doesn’t give him a chance to run through a portal. I'd guess that the radar irritated badly, probably caused him a lot of pain but it really didn’t do that much damage. What it did do was point us in the direction we should be looking."

"How about the YAL-1A? If the targeting beams from an SPY-1 aren't powerful enough to do the job, what about the laser on the YAL-1?" General Norton Schwartz posed the question.

"How many YAL-1s are available?" President Obama asked the question a little self-consciously

"We have two built, two more in pieces, they were on the line when funding for the program was cut. They're still there. We can restart building them if the funding is restored."

Obama sighed. He'd wanted to do so much, to restore the social programs funding that had been neglected during the years of Republican administration. Instead, he was pouring money into the military forces while those social programs continued to wither. It wasn't the way he had wanted to go at all. "Very well, we'll add funding in the next monthly supplemental. Can you divert funding from somewhere else to bridge the gap and get the aircraft started again?"

There was a quick consultation amongst the Chiefs of Staff. Eventually, Secretary Warner tapped his finger on the table. "We'll divert the required resources from the Navy P-8 program. We don’t need ASW birds at this time so a slow-down there won’t hurt.
"Good. Next question. Munitions. How are we doing there."

"We're rebuilding stocks although not as fast as we would like. Problem is, a lot of our capacity is in things we don’t use any more, 5.56mm rifle ammunition for example. Retooling the lines for munitions we do use, .50 Beowulf, .457 Winchester Magnum for example, is taking time and production is only just picking up after the switch. Same across the board. We used to make a lot of 120mm sabot ammunition but our need for that is very low, what we do need is HE and HEAD. They're still in critically short supply. Some areas we're doing all right, we're stocking up again on 155mm artillery ammunition, mostly thanks to the Chinese. Their factories are becoming the arsenal of humanity. This long delay between assaults is really working for us. If Heaven had come straight at us after we'd crushed Hell, we'd have been in a desperate position. Now it's just disturbingly critical."

"Aircraft?"

"Good news Mister President." General Schwartz spoke proudly. "The first B-1C left the re-established production line yesterday and was delivered to the 40th Bombardment Group. They've been training using the B-1A we found after they gave up their B-29s. Next group to re-equip will be the 509th, they're stood down at the moment. They lost all their B-2s at Whitman. Anyway, we've also stood up Air Force Dimensional Strike Command to control all our strategic assets."

"SAC rides again?" Admiral Roughead spoke with studied neutrality.

"It does indeed. Modernized of course. Curt LeMay can stop spinning in his grave. Has anybody found him yet by the way?" There was a general shaking of heads. "Pity, he was the best operator the Air Force ever had, We could use him now."

"Ships? How are we doing there."

"It's our lowest priority area Sir. But, we've cut First Metal on two new CVNs, the USS Millard Fillmore and USS James Garfield. Newport News are working triple shifts on the Lyndon Johnson and Herbert Hoover and they plan to have them out the drydocks in time to start module assembly on the second pair. That will bring us up to 14 CVNs, assuming we pull Enterprise as per plans. Otherwise, we're just concentrating on DDG-51s, additional LHDs and the LHA-6 class. And subs of course, we're ordering three Virginias a year. With luck, we can start pulling the museum pieces out of service again soon."

"Doctor Surlethe, any advance on the scientific front?"

"Yes and no sir. We're making impressive gains in cosmology and a few things are starting to fit together. But, we still can't find a way to get at Heaven. We know it's out there and we know where it is, in a cosmological sense, but we can't find the place. Until we do, of course, we can't attack them. We can make random stabs into Universe-Two, that's the name we're using for the Hell-Dimension now, but we could end up anywhere. One thing we have learned, it behooves us to be careful. We have no idea what we might run into up there.

"There's one thing that is confusing us, we got hammered by the first three Bowls of Wrath and we're only just recovering from them. But, why the long delay on the Fourth? All we've had is the Leopard Beast attack on Fort Bragg that did relatively little damage. The Fourth is supposed to be fire from above, well, we've had that already from Belial so why aren’t we seeing it again. There's something going on here we don’t understand. The bad news is the weather attacks have restarted. You all heard about Taiwan? That cyclone made three passes over the island. No way that's a natural occurrence."

"Is aid on its way there? Hillary, international scene?"

"There is Sir, we're sending amphibious and naval forces, other countries are sending food and medicines. Otherwise, not much to report, Mister President. The Pope has stated that the Roman Catholic Church is forming a division of 'ardent volunteers' to join the fight and 'restore the True God to his throne'. He's offering it to the HEA."

"If they're so ardent, why aren't they already in the Army?"

"Good question John. But this does point to a problem. The Human Expeditionary Army is all armored units, pretty much every division-sized armored unit on Earth. That's the way it has to be, our troops are pretty much safe behind armor. But a lot of countries don't have armored units anything like that size and they're being left out. Worse, from their point of view, the countries forming the HEA and, in particular, the 15 members of the War Council at Yamantau, have all the political power as well. The UN is pretty much isolated and marginalized. Those countries that aren't represented feel the same has happened to them.

"Sucks to be them." General Casey's spoke levelly.

"It does indeed, but we have to recognize this causes problems. The fighting in Myanmar and the threatening war in North Korea are manifestations of this problem. . . ."

"I'd dispute that, those countries were going to blow up sooner or later anyway."

"Perhaps, but the division that's forming between the countries that are at the center of things and those that are not is exacerbating the situation. We don’t want a split in our ranks at the moment, at least not before we have Yahweh's head on a stake in front of Capitol Hill. Also, some of those countries are helping the war effort, either supplying munitions or picking up the slack from efforts that have been diverted to the Salvation War. That's why I think we should encourage the Pope's initiative. It's a way of getting smaller countries together and making them feel they're part of things again. Perhaps the other surviving religions could do the same. There's a long human tradition of the Church Militant after all, and who amongst us has not gone down into the dungeons of Moria as a mace-swinging cleric?"

A guffaw of laughter swept the conference room. Eventually, Obama wiped his eyes and picked up the discussion. "Very well then, I propose that we support the Pope's suggestion at Yamantau. After all, even if the troops aren't that good for much, I'm sure Dave Petraeus can find a use for them. Even if they are all armed like the Swiss Guards."

There was another eruption of laughter. General Casey shook his head, "Actually Sir, it’s a war crime to use Swiss pikemen as mercenaries. Been that way for centuries. But I doubt if we'd find much use for pikes in today's battles."

College of Revised History, Phelan Plain, Hell

"So, the strength of the Phalanx was dependent on each man bearing his part. Any weakness in one gravely weakened the strength of the whole. That was why training was so rigorous and started so early. Every man had to trust every other and that meant they had to have a common background. Shared experience, shared knowledge made for a strong phalanx and that meant victory. I believe it is the same today even though modern weapons are so different from ours."

"Thank you Aeneas. That was a fascinating insight into the thinking of society and the strategy that lay behind the cultural features of Sparta. I think I speak for us all in saying that we wait with the greatest anticipation for your next presentation."

The round of applause shook the classroom walls. Aeneas nodded briefly in response and left, trying hard to hide his resentment at being relegated to the roll of a teacher. As he walked down the corridor, he bumped into a very familiar figure.

"Ori, how are you old comrade."

"Bored and frustrated. And you?"

"Much the same. I understand why the today-people want to learn the truth about their past but why choose us to teach it? There must be many by now who can do better than us."

"Perhaps not, there are many who have been rescued but to find those who have worthwhile knowledge to pass on? Perhaps not so many." Ori glanced around. "But if you are truly sick of speaking to these numbskulls, perhaps there is somebody you should meet."

Ori led the way into the College canteen. A man, wearing the red-and-gray fatigues of the Human Expeditionary Army was sitting at a table, obviously waiting for the samurai. Ori gave him a wave and then introduced Aeneas to the stranger.

"And this is Sergeant Gray Anderson of the First Mechanized Infantry battalion, (Demonic)."

Aeneas picked up on the unit name immediately. "You mean the today-people are training daemons to fight with our weapons." His voice was a hiss of disapproval.

"We are. Although only in a way. Single-shot rifles and lightly armed infantry fighting vehicles only, no artillery, no tanks, no missiles."

"Why?" Anger bubbled under the disapproval.

"Because today-people are in short supply. We have barely enough to keep the units we have up to strength, expanding the army further is hard. So, we're experimenting with training demons and recruiting the deceased, especially ex-soldiers, into the ranks.

"What do you mean 'we'. You're dead like us."

"I am, but I died quite recently. Never went through Hell."

"If you had, you would be less keen to see guns in the hands of demons."

"We're going to see that anyway. They'll get guns, somehow. Everybody who wants them can get them, that never changes. The only question is whether the ones we can trust get them first. Perhaps trust is a bad word there. Mistrust less if that makes you feel easier.

It didn't. Aeneas still remembered what had been done to him in the pits, and that his wife and children were still out there, suffering.

"Aeneas, Gray has a proposition we might like to hear." Ori spoke quietly, he'd been as shocked as Aeneas at the initial idea of training Daemons to fight as humans but he'd had time to get used to it.

"It goes like this. We're training daemons to fight like humans. It's not just shooting although that's a problem. Most daemons shoot like the A-team." Aeneas was confused. Gray grinned at him. "Shoot all day, never actually hit anybody."

"How can Ori and I help, we're not gunmen."

"But you are soldiers. I listened to your speech in there about teaching people to fight as units. That's what daemons don’t do and breaking them of the individual-hero mindset is a real problem. There's a whole lot of pre-military training to be done and you two seem good candidates. You can learn to shoot at the same time. Of course, if you want to stay here and teach historians. . . . . "

It wasn't a decision. Ori and Aeneas looked at each other and their reply was perfectly timed. "When do we start?"
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Six Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

Eep. Drill sargeant Spartan.

I almost feel bad for the demons.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by muon »

Wow! I'm still getting used to actually being a part of SDN... seeing my physics suggestions (including lasers vs masers for this application, no less) appear quickly in-story like this is, well, somehow disturbingly gratifying.

Thanks, Stuart! For the acknowledgment, as well as, yes, the online addiction. ;)
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Stuart »

muon wrote:Wow! I'm still getting used to actually being a part of SDN... seeing my physics suggestions (including lasers vs masers for this application, no less) appear quickly in-story like this is, well, somehow disturbingly gratifying. Thanks, Stuart! For the acknowledgment, as well as, yes, the online addiction. ;)
The eventual arrival of the YAL-1A has actually been set up for some time. It was introduced in Armageddon Part 33 (one of the Chekov's guns contained there) and it's now about to get fired. The whole point about the Normandy's SPY-1 target designation radar being included and having an effect was to set up the switch to the YAL-1. The idea was that (more or less accidentally) an inefficient beam weapon of relatively little effect was used and this woke people up to the idea of replacing it with an effective and efficient beam weapon. And that sets us up for the next phase of the story

The way I do stories is to write out a relatively detailed plot first and then flesh it out. In Armageddon, I didn't initially do that, the first part appeared within a day or two of the light getting turned on in my head. The first few parts were actually written in parallel with the plotline being worked out. That also meant I was able to bring in contributions from other people as they were formulated (it also meant that I had to modify or, in one case change direction, of the contributions). In contrast, the gap between Armageddon and Pantheocide allowed me to get the detailed plot worked out in advance and we're more or less following that line.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Buritot »

Stuart wrote:The way I do stories is to write out a relatively detailed plot first and then flesh it out. In Armageddon, I didn't initially do that, the first part appeared within a day or two of the light getting turned on in my head. The first few parts were actually written in parallel with the plotline being worked out. That also meant I was able to bring in contributions from other people as they were formulated (it also meant that I had to modify or, in one case change direction, of the contributions). In contrast, the gap between Armageddon and Pantheocide allowed me to get the detailed plot worked out in advance and we're more or less following that line.
So you already have a second method to rain fire from the skies... and here I thought I was contributing to the story. :banghead:
Well, the only applicable knowledge I have is electrics, so if you want to electrocute someone... :twisted:
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Stuart »

Buritot wrote: So you already have a second method to rain fire from the skies... and here I thought I was contributing to the story.
Oh yes :twisted: However, your contributions (like everybody else's) have been noted and kept on record. They may well turn up later in an unexpected context.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Peptuck »

Ahhhh. Mmmmm. That's the stuff, Stuart.

Also, Spartan drill instructor getting an opportunity to beat the stuffing out of demonic troops? Ooooh, tingly.

Still waiting until we get to see those devils....
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Pelranius »

So we get to see Aeneas and Ori again. I must admit that I'd sort of forgotten about them in all the excitement.

The Ardent volunteers is interesting, though I would expect that the various non-15 nations would have tried to raise their own units with foreign advisors.

Would have also thought that the Catholics would have moved onto a more humanistic viewpoint by now. Well, it is the Catholic Church and it took us centuries to admit that Galileo was right.

With Universe Two around, it'll be interesting to see how social programs. There will be a huge pool of teachers available (at least in some fields), which will hopefully drive tuition down. I would really hate to be a health insurance company when the mechanics of 'hell regeneration' are deciphered.

Michael Lan versus a YAL-1...
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Samuel »

Destructionator XIII wrote:
General Casey shook his head, "Actually Sir, it’s a war crime to use Swiss pikemen as mercenaries. Been that way for centuries.
Really? Why?
They are just that good.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Serafina »

Of course, the Swiss Guards DO have real weaponery - they use SOTA swiss weaponery. They lack heavy equipment for obvious reasons, though.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Darth Wong »

Serafina wrote:Of course, the Swiss Guards DO have real weaponery - they use SOTA swiss weaponery. They lack heavy equipment for obvious reasons, though.
Come on, those Swiss Army knives are pretty cool. You can open a can of beans in seconds with one of those things.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Serafina »

Darth Wong wrote:
Serafina wrote:Of course, the Swiss Guards DO have real weaponery - they use SOTA swiss weaponery. They lack heavy equipment for obvious reasons, though.
Come on, those Swiss Army knives are pretty cool. You can open a can of beans in seconds with one of those things.
Well, those are tools, not weapons. But you are right, they are pretty awesome distillates of usefulleness.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Eulogy »

Stuart wrote:
Buritot wrote: So you already have a second method to rain fire from the skies... and here I thought I was contributing to the story.
Oh yes :twisted: However, your contributions (like everybody else's) have been noted and kept on record. They may well turn up later in an unexpected context.
So wait... does this mean that Micheal pulls a Belial, only to have it be much less devastating than he expected? Or does this mean that the humans pull a Belial on Heaven?
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Stuart »

Darth Wong wrote:Come on, those Swiss Army knives are pretty cool. You can open a can of beans in seconds with one of those things.
It is said that with a Swiss Army knife, duct tape and a can of WD40, all known engineering problems can be solved.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Darth Wong »

muon wrote:Wow! I'm still getting used to actually being a part of SDN... seeing my physics suggestions (including lasers vs masers for this application, no less) appear quickly in-story like this is, well, somehow disturbingly gratifying.

Thanks, Stuart! For the acknowledgment, as well as, yes, the online addiction. ;)
Your contributions are well-written and no doubt appreciated by all.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Darth Wong »

Stuart wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Come on, those Swiss Army knives are pretty cool. You can open a can of beans in seconds with one of those things.
It is said that with a Swiss Army knife, duct tape and a can of WD40, all known engineering problems can be solved.
I believe Macgyver proved this :)
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Simon_Jester »

Destructionator XIII wrote:
General Casey shook his head, "Actually Sir, it’s a war crime to use Swiss pikemen as mercenaries. Been that way for centuries.
Really? Why?
Historically, they were very popular mercenaries back in the 1400s and 1500s, because they were better at pike tactics than anyone else.

I can imagine the nations of post-medieval Europe agreeing at some point "OK, I won't hire a massive block of marching cheese-making knife-inventing badasses if you won't." In which case hiring mercenaries from Switzerland would probably wind up banned by some ancient treaty.

I don't know if it actually happened, but I can see why it would have happened.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Darth Wong »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Destructionator XIII wrote:
General Casey shook his head, "Actually Sir, it’s a war crime to use Swiss pikemen as mercenaries. Been that way for centuries.
Really? Why?
Historically, they were very popular mercenaries back in the 1400s and 1500s, because they were better at pike tactics than anyone else.

I can imagine the nations of post-medieval Europe agreeing at some point "OK, I won't hire a massive block of marching cheese-making knife-inventing badasses if you won't." In which case hiring mercenaries from Switzerland would probably wind up banned by some ancient treaty.

I don't know if it actually happened, but I can see why it would have happened.
Or maybe they just banned them because nobody wanted to see their ridiculous brightly coloured clown outfits.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Androsphinx »

The Swiss Constitution, as variously amended since 1848, banned the export of mercenary units, Swiss citizens from becoming mercenaries, and ultimately Swiss citizens from volunteering in other nations' armies.

Edit: And this relates in quite complicated ways to international recognition of Swiss Neutrality, going back to the 1815 Treaty of Paris.
Last edited by Androsphinx on 2009-08-11 05:33pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by MarshalPurnell »

Swiss regiments were a staple of the restored Bourbon monarchy in the 19th century, until they were finally disbanded after the 1830 Revolution. The 1848 Swiss Constitution, established after the Sonderbund civil war, banned the recruitment of Swiss citizens as foreign mercenaries with an exception created for the Pope. This did not deter the British from trying to recruit Swiss mercenaries during the Crimean War, with the Radical government indebted to British diplomatic support during the civil war choosing to look the other way, and a Swiss Legion was raised but did not see combat. If any of the Swiss Guards were involved in the armed show of defiance that Pius IX briefly put up when the Kingdom of Italy took Rome in 1870, it was probably be the last time Swiss mercenaries saw combat.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Serafina »

Androsphinx wrote:The Swiss Constitution, as variously amended since 1848, banned the export of mercenary units, Swiss citizens from becoming mercenaries, and ultimately Swiss citizens from volunteering in other nations' armies.
Which does not make it an war crime. They propably loose their citizenship in Switzerland, but there is no international law against it. In fact, a lot of countries have laws like this - it does not stop people from appling to the French Foreign Legion and similar units.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Androsphinx »

Serafina wrote:
Androsphinx wrote:The Swiss Constitution, as variously amended since 1848, banned the export of mercenary units, Swiss citizens from becoming mercenaries, and ultimately Swiss citizens from volunteering in other nations' armies.
Which does not make it an war crime. They propably loose their citizenship in Switzerland, but there is no international law against it. In fact, a lot of countries have laws like this - it does not stop people from appling to the French Foreign Legion and similar units.
As I edited my post to make clear, there are specific international laws regarding Switzerland's perpetual neutrality. These interact with the Swiss constitution, which bans mercenaries (except for the Swiss Guard).
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Serafina »

I still do not see how this makes it an "war crime". I found nothing which labels it as such, and no international treaty banning it. Ohter countries recognize Swisstzerland as and independent country, but that does not mean that they obey all its laws.
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Re: The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Twenty Seven Up

Post by Setzer »

It was probably just poetic license on Stuart's part. Saying it's a warcrime to use these guys in battle sounds a lot cooler then saying "That would get their Swiss Citizenship revoked."
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