First RPG

[Imperial Overlord]

I keep seeing people mentioning minis in this thread. When did minis become part of the RPG experience? I've played more than a couple RPGs over the years and I don't ever recall a situation where miniatures were necessary; are they part of the new rules for Saga Edition, or are they just visual aids to keep the players focused?

They aren't required, but the Saga Edition is set up in a format that is very mini use friendly in an attempt to sell them and generate more money for Hasbro. My group doesn't bother and the game plays fine without them.

[Hotfoot]

I keep seeing people mentioning minis in this thread. When did minis become part of the RPG experience? I've played more than a couple RPGs over the years and I don't ever recall a situation where miniatures were necessary; are they part of the new rules for Saga Edition, or are they just visual aids to keep the players focused?

Mostly just visual aids. It's nice sometimes to have a little battle map with clear views of what's going on, but it's far from necessary. Minis have been around for this purpose for a long, long time, it's just that it's easier to get good, pre-painted minis these days for some games, and there are tactical games that go with them.

[Stark]

With bad players minis really help stop them being cunts about everything spatial or timing. Some people can't visualise as clearly as others, so they can really help people understand where everything is.

But hey, so can little bits of cardboard in a stand. Don't play with cunts anyway - if your friends are cunts, it's like moving in with them - sure they're your mates, but they're still cunts, and eventually you'll hate them. Just kick them out of the group, problem solved.

[Stofsk]

Ah fair enough. Although some force powers are indelibly linked to the dark side, like Force Lightning (aka Sith Lightning by Mr Flannel Shirt himself), and IIRC Force Choke was used by a Jedi against Grievous during one of the Clone Wars cartoons, but that may have been a naughty thing for a Jedi to do anyway (the situation was unmistakebly extreme though) - I don't know if choke was used by anyone else.

I agree with you on the DS/Force points problem. Unless Force points are awarded more often, getting rid of DS points becomes problematic. But then, isn't that what the canon says it should be like? Once you start down the path of the dark side, it'll fuck you up forever.

Although I am interested in how Saga Edition handles it.

Luke also used force choke in Jabba's Palace,

I forgot about that.

In Saga, the intention of one's actions are what set someone down the path of the Dark Side, so performing an evil act will do the job just fine. Using Dark Side powers works too, but the only purely Dark Side powers in Saga Edition are Dark Rage and Force Lightning. However, using the force in anger causes issues as well.

Ok, I can see that being a better system, although I think Force Choke should still be a DS power. You're basically using the Force to hurt another life form, which if you take Yoda's interpretation of the Force into consideration, that's like using the Force to hurt itself (someone here described it like that, long ago, and I no longer remember who said it).

The one that always made me go WTF was Illusion being a DS power in Revised Edition. I wondered why, since Obi-wan used an illusory sound to distract Stormtroopers guarding the tractor beam console in ANH. But then they called that as part of the "Jedi Mind Trick" which was stupid.

[Mr Bean]

[
Ok, I can see that being a better system, although I think Force Choke should still be a DS power. You're basically using the Force to hurt another life form, which if you take Yoda's interpretation of the Force into consideration, that's like using the Force to hurt itself (someone here described it like that, long ago, and I no longer remember who said it).

If it was Force Neck Snap maybe. But what if your just cutting of their air supply until biology being what it is they pass out and letting them go.

That's something that's always bugged me about the older systems.

Caving through people with Lightsabers who are attacking you?
A-OK, Lets hear it for Peace and Tolerance!
Force chocking them all? Even if it's not to death?
Evil, You EVIL!!!!

[Stofsk]

I keep seeing people mentioning minis in this thread. When did minis become part of the RPG experience? I've played more than a couple RPGs over the years and I don't ever recall a situation where miniatures were necessary; are they part of the new rules for Saga Edition, or are they just visual aids to keep the players focused?

*shrug* My first experience with RPGs was with D&D 3rd Ed with a bunch of guys who were also into Warhammer, so a lot of the time we had figurines being used as visual aids on the table. We didn't have 'battle maps' or whatever, the only practical application was usually just reminding everyone what the single file order was. Which is actually important.

"I'm a rogue so I'm always at the front."

"Very good. Roll for initiative because you're being attacked by the angry Orc with the battleaxe."

:'( "I don't want to be in the front anymore, I want to be in the back."

"Excellent! You hear a noise behind you..."

Yeah, like Stark said, don't play with cunts

[Stofsk]

If it was Force Neck Snap maybe. But what if your just cutting of their air supply until biology being what it is they pass out and letting them go.

You're still using the Force to hurt somebody. Why not simply use TK to hold them in place? You're not hurting them and they're not hurting you, and your point will have got across to them to not fuck with you.

Force chocking them all? Even if it's not to death?
Evil, You EVIL!!!!

If I went around assaulting people by choking them enough so that they see stars and nearly pass out I would still get thrown in jail. Why would the rules change just because I have magic powers and call myself a Jedi?

[Imperial Overlord]

Hurting people with the Force isn't automatically Dark Side (Luke in Jabba's Palace, Anakin telekinetically smacking Genoshians, Yoda TK against the Emperor). In the Saga Edition using Force Grip doesn't automatically get the user a Dark Side point but because its a power that is mostly used to inflict severe injury or death using it will often result in gaining a Dark Side point depending on the circumstances (GM's discretion).

[Raj Ahten]

Huh, with the recommendations from this thread I might have to check out the Saga edition myself. At first glance it appeared to be another star wars RPG i didn't need on top of all the other ones I had but I never did really check it out very thoroughly.

[Stofsk]

Hurting people with the Force isn't automatically Dark Side (Luke in Jabba's Palace, Anakin telekinetically smacking Genoshians, Yoda TK against the Emperor). In the Saga Edition using Force Grip doesn't automatically get the user a Dark Side point but because its a power that is mostly used to inflict severe injury or death using it will often result in gaining a Dark Side point depending on the circumstances (GM's discretion).

That's the thing, if it's a power that 'mostly' has DS applications why not call it a DS power? If however circumstances are extenuating, leaving it to GM's discretion is my preferred recourse.

And saying hurting people with the Force isn't dark because Luke choked some Gammoreans and Anakin smacked some Genoshans isn't paying heed to the storyline: Luke appeared a lot more darker in ROTJ to underscore his trial as a hero (complete rejection of the Emperor's temptation at the end, thereby overcoming his father's legacy of falling to the dark side), while Anakin smacking Genoshans arounds could be taken or left depending on how you choose to view his actions. He was either defending himself so no harm no foul, or this comes right after he massacred the Tusken raiders and noncombatants, which means he's already started down the dark side path, so smacking Genoshans may still be significant.

Also Yoda didn't use Force Choke on the Emperor, unless I'm remembering that battle wrong. He just threw a Senate pod at him - right after the Emperor tried to throw one at him.

[Hotfoot]

So when is violence dark side? Obi-Wan sliced a dude's arm off in a bar fight. Jedi killed countless aliens in the Clone Wars. Mace Windu sliced off Jango Fett's head in front of the man's son. Lightsabers are not tasers, they are extraordinarily lethal weapons that can tear apart creatures like hot knives through butter.

Jedi use the Force to throw people around at dangerous speeds, knock them off ledges, and yes, to kill. Does it matter if they used Jedi Battle Mediation to guide their lightsaber to their target, or if they use telekinesis to crush their throats or throw them off a cliff? Does it matter if Mace Windu crushed Greivous's vital organs in their cybernetic shell, or if Obi-Wan blew him away with a blaster?

Jedi kill constantly. Their methods vary, but they use the force in some way to help make it happen. Hell, Luke killed thousands at the least in the Battle of Yavin, using the force to guide his shot to destroy the first Death Star.

I think it's pretty clear the Jedi do not have a problem using the force to injure or kill their opponents. The distinction comes, I believe, with how the Jedi come to the decision to kill and how they approach it. A Jedi should kill without becoming vengeful, kill because it's needed to save the lives of others or yourself, that sort of thing. Once anger, rage, becomes involved, that is the path to the Dark Side, not using a specific example of telekinesis. Anakin started his path to the dark side with nothing more than a heart full of rage and a lightsaber.

I'm fine with some powers only coming with devotion to the dark side, the embrace of excessive emotions, just like some powers should only come with accepting the balance of the light side, and the serenity that is ideal in that. However, something like telekinesis, which is a very basic Jedi Trick, should not be considered evil because you can use it to choke somebody. Sleeper and submission holds that cut off oxygen to the brain were at one point commonly used by police to subdue violent criminals. A Jedi, who can sense the life force of someone, could use choke to subdue without killing, given enough concentration.

[Imperial Overlord]

That's the thing, if it's a power that 'mostly' has DS applications why not call it a DS power? If however circumstances are extenuating, leaving it to GM's discretion is my preferred recourse.

Under the Saga Edition system if its counted as a Dark Side power then any use is an automatic Dark Side point. That's how their classification system works. You can still get Dark Side points for use of other powers (say unjustifiably Force Choking someone to death or dropping them off a ledge or smooshing them with a heavy object) but that's at the GM's discretion.

And saying hurting people with the Force isn't dark because Luke choked some Gammoreans and Anakin smacked some Genoshans isn't paying heed to the storyline: Luke appeared a lot more darker in ROTJ to underscore his trial as a hero (complete rejection of the Emperor's temptation at the end, thereby overcoming his father's legacy of falling to the dark side), while Anakin smacking Genoshans arounds could be taken or left depending on how you choose to view his actions. He was either defending himself so no harm no foul, or this comes right after he massacred the Tusken raiders and noncombatants, which means he's already started down the dark side path, so smacking Genoshans may still be significant.

Also Yoda didn't use Force Choke on the Emperor, unless I'm remembering that battle wrong. He just threw a Senate pod at him - right after the Emperor tried to throw one at him.

Yoda used the Force to throw the Emperor hard across the room and throw a Senate pod at the Emperor that would have smushed him if it connected. Those are offensive moves. And your argument supports that offensively using the Force in most cases should be ajudicated on a case by case basis as to whether or not it incurrs Dark Side points.

[Stofsk]

So when is violence dark side? Obi-Wan sliced a dude's arm off in a bar fight.

Who had a fucking weapon and was pointing it at him and Luke. After Obi-wan tried to defuse the situation and offered to buy them a drink.

I don't think I said justified violence was evil. In fact I'm pretty sure I didn't.

Jedi killed countless aliens in the Clone Wars.

What, indiscriminately? Or were these aliens fighting for the Separatists and trying to kill them?

Mace Windu sliced off Jango Fett's head in front of the man's son.

The same guy who shot and killed a Jedi, and not only that but also tried to set Mace Windu on fire with his own personal flamethrower. Not only that but was also responsible for murdering Zam Wessel and attempted murder of Padme. And when Mace Windu sliced off his head, the guy was shooting at him with his blaster. And again, this was after Mace attempted to tell Dooku to call off their arena style execution of Anakin, Obi-wan and Padme and arrest them.

Lightsabers are not tasers, they are extraordinarily lethal weapons that can tear apart creatures like hot knives through butter.

Um, duh? What, are you assuming I haven't watched the films or something?

PS Even tasers can kill.

Jedi use the Force to throw people around at dangerous speeds, knock them off ledges, and yes, to kill. Does it matter if they used Jedi Battle Mediation to guide their lightsaber to their target, or if they use telekinesis to crush their throats or throw them off a cliff? Does it matter if Mace Windu crushed Greivous's vital organs in their cybernetic shell, or if Obi-Wan blew him away with a blaster?

Yes, it does. "Life creates it, helps it grow." That's Yoda talking about how the Force works. In that context, using the Force to hurt another life form would be a bad thing to do, which is why Jedi arm themselves with lightsabres rather than go around force choking everyone. That's why Lightning is a Sith power for instance. It uses the Force to fry a living being.

Jedi kill constantly. Their methods vary, but they use the force in some way to help make it happen. Hell, Luke killed thousands at the least in the Battle of Yavin, using the force to guide his shot to destroy the first Death Star.

You're manufacturing my argument it seems. Luke destroying the Death Star is justifiable. It's a battlestation and it's wartime. Everyone onboard is a combatant.

I never said that the Jedi don't or can't use the force to hurt or injure, it's that their philosophy is 'violence is a last resort', and that powers that seem to only be used for 'hurt/injure/kill' applications ought to be dark side. You're making it sound like I think the Jedi are pacifists or something, which is nowhere near what I am saying.

I think it's pretty clear the Jedi do not have a problem using the force to injure or kill their opponents. The distinction comes, I believe, with how the Jedi come to the decision to kill and how they approach it. A Jedi should kill without becoming vengeful, kill because it's needed to save the lives of others or yourself, that sort of thing. Once anger, rage, becomes involved, that is the path to the Dark Side, not using a specific example of telekinesis. Anakin started his path to the dark side with nothing more than a heart full of rage and a lightsaber.

I'm fine with some powers only coming with devotion to the dark side, the embrace of excessive emotions, just like some powers should only come with accepting the balance of the light side, and the serenity that is ideal in that. However, something like telekinesis, which is a very basic Jedi Trick, should not be considered evil because you can use it to choke somebody. Sleeper and submission holds that cut off oxygen to the brain were at one point commonly used by police to subdue violent criminals. A Jedi, who can sense the life force of someone, could use choke to subdue without killing, given enough concentration.

You keep calling it telekinesis, yet when I say 'Force Choke' I am referring to specific examples where the Force is used to kill - and the way the Force works is told to us by Yoda. "Quicker, easier, more seductive" is what he calls the darkside. Anger, fear, hatred, Jedi don't use powers while influenced by those feelings (and Sith presumably do).

You can think up applications for TK that involve 'subduing' people and in a way that doesn't injure them - congratulations, so did I (scroll up the thread). I'm not talking about 'lol use tk to put a sleepy hold on someone, n00b'. I'm talking about Force Choke, the power Vader uses to kill and injure arrogant Imperial officers and his own wife, the power that Luke uses on two Gamorreans at the start of ROTJ which is supposed to set him up as someone who might be 'skirting the edge' and thus could he fall, could he give in, like his father did (which is part of the plot of ROTJ).

You can say "Oh but intention matters a lot..." and I will say - yeah, the same thing (scroll up, where I basically agree with you that the way the Saga edition handles it is better). The complaint I have is that Force Choke is more than simple application of TK. You can use TK to hold someone, to subdue them, to stun them, to lift them up off their feet so they can't move, and all of those wouldn't cost you a DS point. Use it to hurt and injure someone, use it to kill, and in an unjustified manner, then yes, you earned a DS point. Hell even if it's justified, how is it not a bad thing given how we know the Force works per Yoda's lines in ESB? Just because you earn a DS point isn't the end of the goddamn world and your character is now an Evil Sith. You have to earn a lot of DS points before that happens, and you can use Force points to cancel out a DS point. How do you know, in RPG terms, Luke didn't get a DS point for choking those two Gammoreans?

That's the thing, if it's a power that 'mostly' has DS applications why not call it a DS power? If however circumstances are extenuating, leaving it to GM's discretion is my preferred recourse.

Under the Saga Edition system if its counted as a Dark Side power then any use is an automatic Dark Side point. That's how their classification system works. You can still get Dark Side points for use of other powers (say unjustifiably Force Choking someone to death or dropping them off a ledge or smooshing them with a heavy object) but that's at the GM's discretion.

And I already agreed that the way Saga Edition handles it is the way it generally ought to be.

The point of contention appears to be that I think Force Choke should be a DS power and made distinct from say, ordinary TK. In fact, everyone who has replied to me thus far has been arguing against my position that Force Choke is bad by giving me examples of TK being used... not Force Choke. Perhaps I'm not being understood.

I make a distinction between Move Object (or ordinary TK) and Force Choke (or Grip, whatever it was called) because the former is a 'neutral' application, but choking someone doesn't have any application other than using the Force to hurt. Given how Yoda says the Force works in ESB, I always took that to mean that if you use the Force to hurt a living being, you're basically (maybe literally or figuratively) using the Force to hurt itself, since life is what sustains its power. The other problem is people assume that "Oh if a Jedi does it, it's not evil/bad/ungood" which is specious reasoning. Why is Luke choking a Gamorrean, Yoda TK-shoving the Emperor, or Anakin smacking Genoshans necessarily proof that they aren't using a bad power? When Vader uses it it is clearly terrible. But when Yoda smashes the Emperor with the Force, it's ok. Well, maybe it is ok because the situation merits it - but if the Force works as Yoda describes in ESB, then maybe say Yoda using TK to smash the Emperor is still a bad but necessary thing, because the Emperor is the greater evil. Under the revised edition rules, maybe using TK to shove the Emperor would have earned Yoda a DS point for using Force Grip... but it would have also earned him a Force Point because he's still smushing the Emperor (the BAD GUY RAR) so it cancels out. I hope that makes sense.

It's like violence is a last resort vs violence being used first. Here's an analogy: you can punch someone in the face and generally speaking it's considered a bad thing. But if you're defending yourself or someone it's not a bad thing, it's justified. Even if you are justified you can still get into trouble though. And you can punch a punching bag and it's not a bad thing because you're not hurting anyone. Maybe that illustrates what I'm getting at?

Yoda used the Force to throw the Emperor hard across the room and throw a Senate pod at the Emperor that would have smushed him if it connected. Those are offensive moves. And your argument supports that offensively using the Force in most cases should be ajudicated on a case by case basis as to whether or not it incurrs Dark Side points.

I agree.

[Serafina]

The game already awards DS-points for "evil" usage of the force. Killing an innocent with a lightsaber will not award DS-points (at least, not immedeately), while doing so with the force will do.
Force choke is just another application of telekinesis - so why is it considered inherently evil? It can be used to kill, but it can also be used to incapacitate - this is true for every offensive force power.

In general, it is better to let the GM handle DS-point allocation, because he can judge by intentions - and those are what matters. Any reasonable GM will give you DS-points for force-choling someone to death outside of combat, but he will also do so if you use a "neutral" power such as force push.

[Hotfoot]

I don't think I said justified violence was evil. In fact I'm pretty sure I didn't.

What, indiscriminately? Or were these aliens fighting for the Separatists and trying to kill them?

The same guy who shot and killed a Jedi, and not only that but also tried to set Mace Windu on fire with his own personal flamethrower. Not only that but was also responsible for murdering Zam Wessel and attempted murder of Padme. And when Mace Windu sliced off his head, the guy was shooting at him with his blaster. And again, this was after Mace attempted to tell Dooku to call off their arena style execution of Anakin, Obi-wan and Padme and arrest them.

Um, duh? What, are you assuming I haven't watched the films or something?

PS Even tasers can kill.

Just to start, yes, it's possible to kill with a taser, but that's not what it's designed to do. A lightsaber is designed to be extraordinarily lethal.

Now, on to the rest. Intent matters. Every time Vader used choke, it was to bully people around, kill in front of others for terror, and that sort of thing. When Luke did, it was to get past some guards without necessarily killing them or causing a bigger fight by doing so quietly. Huge difference. Take the Jedi Mind trick. It's the easiest thing in the world to use that to get a weak-minded person to do pretty much whatever the fuck you want. Obi-Wan used it to get a dude selling drugs to stop selling drugs, go home, and re-evaluate his life. The potential for dark side abuse of this power to gain followers, a cheap lay, or even an assassin is pretty severe. Should we label this Dark Side too, because the possible dark side uses are extreme? Yoda used TK to pick up a starfighter, he could probably crush people into paste with that same power: dark side, right?

Intent matters. Choke shouldn't even BE a separate power from TK, it's inane that someone would make it such, but there you go. The same power Luke used to pull his lightsaber, that Vader used to grab Han's gun and throw around machinery and toss his lightsaber, the same power that Yoda used to throw furniture, it's all the same. They make the little hand motion of what they want done (sometimes) and it happens, force is applied through the Force.

Yes, it does. "Life creates it, helps it grow." That's Yoda talking about how the Force works. In that context, using the Force to hurt another life form would be a bad thing to do, which is why Jedi arm themselves with lightsabres rather than go around force choking everyone. That's why Lightning is a Sith power for instance. It uses the Force to fry a living being.

And yet death is tied to the force as well. Yoda's personal philosophies are not in question here, let's instead look at the actions of Jedi through the generations. Jedi use the Force constantly to kill people, either directly or by proxy. When you use magic to drop a rock on someone, how is it really functionally different from blasting them with magic? The Jedi use the Force in ALL of their combat training, even if it's not direct TK on the target, they still use the force to kill.

You're manufacturing my argument it seems. Luke destroying the Death Star is justifiable. It's a battlestation and it's wartime. Everyone onboard is a combatant.

I never said that the Jedi don't or can't use the force to hurt or injure, it's that their philosophy is 'violence is a last resort', and that powers that seem to only be used for 'hurt/injure/kill' applications ought to be dark side. You're making it sound like I think the Jedi are pacifists or something, which is nowhere near what I am saying.

Your argument seems to be that some methods of killing are acceptable and some are not for Jedi. That's nonsense as far as I'm concerned. The point of the Jedi is that if they have to fight, the best outcome is the one where there is as little needless loss of life as possible. Obi-Wan disabled instead of killed. I'll bet it caused a lot of pain, but that wasn't his intention. Luke disabled and maybe killed the Gammoreans to save a friend and prevent an even larger fight, not because he wanted to kill them painfully.

The reason Force Lightning is such an obviously Dark Side power is that it DOESN'T kill, at least not right away. It causes crippling agony almost for the express purpose of causing pain, which is clearly of the dark side. Choking someone with an extension of TK all depends on how and why you do that.

You keep calling it telekinesis, yet when I say 'Force Choke' I am referring to specific examples where the Force is used to kill - and the way the Force works is told to us by Yoda. "Quicker, easier, more seductive" is what he calls the darkside. Anger, fear, hatred, Jedi don't use powers while influenced by those feelings (and Sith presumably do).

You can think up applications for TK that involve 'subduing' people and in a way that doesn't injure them - congratulations, so did I (scroll up the thread). I'm not talking about 'lol use tk to put a sleepy hold on someone, n00b'. I'm talking about Force Choke, the power Vader uses to kill and injure arrogant Imperial officers and his own wife, the power that Luke uses on two Gamorreans at the start of ROTJ which is supposed to set him up as someone who might be 'skirting the edge' and thus could he fall, could he give in, like his father did (which is part of the plot of ROTJ).

I never saw that scene as setting Luke up as "skirting the edge", I saw it as proof of his mastery over the Force. This isn't the whiny kid we've seen the last two movies who can barely move a rock, he can now wave aside two big-ass guards with the wave of a hand and barely a fuss.

You can say "Oh but intention matters a lot..." and I will say - yeah, the same thing (scroll up, where I basically agree with you that the way the Saga edition handles it is better). The complaint I have is that Force Choke is more than simple application of TK. You can use TK to hold someone, to subdue them, to stun them, to lift them up off their feet so they can't move, and all of those wouldn't cost you a DS point. Use it to hurt and injure someone, use it to kill, and in an unjustified manner, then yes, you earned a DS point. Hell even if it's justified, how is it not a bad thing given how we know the Force works per Yoda's lines in ESB? Just because you earn a DS point isn't the end of the goddamn world and your character is now an Evil Sith. You have to earn a lot of DS points before that happens, and you can use Force points to cancel out a DS point. How do you know, in RPG terms, Luke didn't get a DS point for choking those two Gammoreans?

Actually, you didn't have to earn that many DS points before the change happened, the threshold was pretty low in v1. of the D20 Star Wars game. Saga edition it seems to be better overall.


Overall, the big issue stems from what you and I consider to be evil or dark side, and how we define the different powers. A minor thing overall, but there you go.

[Stofsk]

I am going to condense your reply to what I think is at the heart of this argument.

Your argument seems to be that some methods of killing are acceptable and some are not for Jedi. That's nonsense as far as I'm concerned.

Wrong. Methodology is tied to intention, which as you said, matters a lot. It is ironic to suggest that methods don't matter, only results do (ends justify the means now? That's not very Jedi like) right after you tell me that intention matters.

I never saw that scene as setting Luke up as "skirting the edge", I saw it as proof of his mastery over the Force. This isn't the whiny kid we've seen the last two movies who can barely move a rock, he can now wave aside two big-ass guards with the wave of a hand and barely a fuss.

You missed the symbolism? Luke is dressed in black and the first time we see him he chokes two bouncers because they were blocking his way. The only time we have ever seen a Force user choke somebody is Vader, and twice it resulted in the person's death. (the other time was used to bully someone) Given that later in the film, Luke wrestles with his rage and despair at the Emperor's coaxing it is clear that his path is supposed to mirror his father's path, with the divergence being Luke rejects the dark side even after being tempted with it, which is likely why Vader redeems himself (because his own son could reject the DS and was being fried by the Emperor).

Overall, the big issue stems from what you and I consider to be evil or dark side, and how we define the different powers. A minor thing overall, but there you go.

As I said in my reply to Imperial Overlord, the point of contention is simply that I consider Force Grip to be a power that has DS applications.

You don't seem to think it should be a separate power to something like Move Object or what-have-you. In other words, it's regular TK. Well, this isn't a generic sci-fi RPG setting, it's Star Wars. There are no 'regular' psi powers, it's the Force. The Force is the source of these powers, and the way the Force works is described to us by Yoda and other Jedi throughout the films. As I have laboured to point out, if life creates the Force and helps it grow (to paraphrase Yoda) then how is using a power that directly causes pain and injury to a living being considered a good thing?

What pisses me off is that in the films, the power is clearly demonstrated as being a bad thing because Vader and Dooku use it and no other Jedi uses it except Luke on those two Gammorreans. While other methods of TK are used that aren't as overtly destructive as choking the life out of someone, or could be used to immobilise someone without actively and directly harming them. Qui-gon touches Jar-jar and he passes out after 'relaxing' because he was too stressed at the situation. That's a demonstration of a power that isn't invasive or aggressive like Force Choke is. The reason why I'm going off the films is that the EU is full of shit in so many ways that I'm not interested in acknowledging it. In the films, Vader uses Force Choke three times - twice to kill, once to torture and bully Admiral Motti in the Death Star board room. Dooku uses it on Obi-wan in his chambers on the Invisible Hand, and he was using it aggressively. Luke uses it against a couple of bouncers simply to get past them (when he might have used a Jedi mind trick like he uses if on Bib Fortuna in the next scene), and as I said above I contend that symbolically that scene is supposed to show Luke skirting close to the dark side because it sets up the struggle between him, his father and the Emperor later in the film.

There are others powers that can be used to stun/immobilise another person than choking them. You can use regular TK to move someone off their feet so that they're not running towards you, or you can use it to hold them in place. You can push them away from you. You can disarm them with TK. You can overload their senses or cause them to faint. So why choke them then? Because it's quicker and easier... which is a dark side attitude.

[Imperial Overlord]

I have to disagree with your interpretations of ROTJ Stofsk. Luke shows up wearing black, a colour associated with a number of traits. One of them is evil. Another is discipline. He neutralizes guards without inflicting permanent harm. He tries to reason with Jabba. He even gives Jabba one last chance over the Saarlack Pit. What we see there is Luke as a full Jedi Knight, in command of his powers and willing to use his abilities to kill, but preferring not to.

When confronted by the Emperor he resists giving into his anger and hatred until Vader threatens Leia. Then he does so momentarily. ROTJ is about Luke taking a different path than his father, but it is also about the rebirth of the Jedi.

The Saga Edition breaks down telekinetics into a host of related powers. That's game mechanics.

[Stofsk]

ROTJ is about Luke taking a different path than his father, but it is also about the rebirth of the Jedi.

I understand that, and I don't think my interpretation conflicts with that theme. The Emperor wants Luke to turn to the dark side and dispose of Vader, who had become a disappointment due to the injuries he sustained in his first duel with Obi-wan.

I don't disagree with you that black can mean other things, including discipline. I agree with that as well. My interpretation and yours are not mutually exclusive. I just think Luke choking the two guards is supposed to symbolise and set up Luke's later struggle and the temptation of the dark side.

The Saga Edition breaks down telekinetics into a host of related powers. That's game mechanics.

Good.

[Eleas]

The Saga Edition breaks down telekinetics into a host of related powers. That's game mechanics.

Good.

It may be a good idea for the core rules, but the cumulative weight of new sourcebooks have served to skew the balance of the rules, to my view near-fatally. If I were to GM the game with all the expansions allowed (assuming I were that stupid) I would probably still retain the division and have it represent inclination, but probably allow a character to use a standard action to convert one power of the same type into another.