Traviss quits SW

[18-Till-I-Die]

Ok so yeah, Revelations is basically her fanfic.

TvTropes says this is...the FixFic. Commonly written by angry shippers, the FixFic is a fanfic written with the explicit purpose of creating a "better" alternate universe version of what happened in the actual series. In effect it changes what you don't find enjoyable, personally, about the canon, usually a pairing. In this case it seems to be her addiction to the Mandos and her distaste for Jedi. The term used by fans of FixFics would be Better than Canon, to denote that they prefer this setting over the original. Usually perfuse with Mary Sues of various kinds who act as author mouthpieces. That sounds pretty much like what Traviss is doing here, I'd reckon. "Better than Canon" indeed.

Has anyone ever asked her or had her explain why she hated Jedi so much? This is really curious to me, I'd love to actually hear what she has to say. Part of me thinks she doesn't like them in some kneejerk reaction to them having psychic powers as she keeps calling them "spoonbenders" and "hucksters" and making them do menial things with the Force. May be some thing about them being (supposedly) a religion? I don't get it, now I'm kind of curious as to the logic at work here.

I mean, she doesn't have to bash Jedi to help the Mandos...they could coexist with her writing the Mandos to simply outshine the Jedi. Why outright try to discredit them? And them specifically--she seems to not reallt touch on the Sith too much, or other Force Adept castes.

[Vympel]

Ok so yeah, Revelations is basically her fanfic.

TvTropes says this is...the FixFic. Commonly written by angry shippers, the FixFic is a fanfic written with the explicit purpose of creating a "better" alternate universe version of what happened in the actual series. In effect it changes what you don't find enjoyable, personally, about the canon, usually a pairing. In this case it seems to be her addiction to the Mandos and her distaste for Jedi. The term used by fans of FixFics would be Better than Canon, to denote that they prefer this setting over the original. Usually perfuse with Mary Sues of various kinds who act as author mouthpieces. That sounds pretty much like what Traviss is doing here, I'd reckon. "Better than Canon" indeed.

Has anyone ever asked her or had her explain why she hated Jedi so much? This is really curious to me, I'd love to actually hear what she has to say. Part of me thinks she doesn't like them in some kneejerk reaction to them having psychic powers as she keeps calling them "spoonbenders" and "hucksters" and making them do menial things with the Force. May be some thing about them being (supposedly) a religion? I don't get it, now I'm kind of curious as to the logic at work here.

I mean, she doesn't have to bash Jedi to help the Mandos...they could coexist with her writing the Mandos to simply outshine the Jedi. Why outright try to discredit them? And them specifically--she seems to not reallt touch on the Sith too much, or other Force Adept castes.

It's on her website. She's full of shit and thinks anyone who likes Jedi are Nazis. Seriously. That's virtually an actual quote.

[Anguirus]

As for the books, I only read certain authors about certain topics.

Me too. For instance, I read Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor recently and really enjoyed it. Stover is one of the only authors who seems able to write the movie characters (you know, some of the most iconic fictional characters in the public consciousness) as themselves as not as Generic Sci-fi People.

I also like Zahn, though he has almost as many bad ideas as good ones, and Luceno, though he's more of a plot-hole-fixer than an author of compelling character studies. Allston is also good for a laugh, but I haven't read his recent stuff because they have been in those ongoing post RotJ series that I have no interest in.

I'm somewhat interested in Death Star and Millenium Falcon.

[Darth Hoth]

Traviss is out? The Sekt will flow tonight!

Just so this is not another useless, me-tooing post, I suppose I should add something to the EU discussion. As I see it, the EU has its place in continuity and should not be overridden willy-nilly just because Lucas feels like it. I care not a wit if it matches his Grand Vision (or rather, the version of it that is current now and will be for the next five minutes or so) or whatever - if he has authorised it as canon, he should take it into account. No one forced him to approve it, but he should at least stick to it once it is made. Continuity is not a casual consideration; he should at least attempt not to contradict established canon. Yes, with the size the material has now screwups will happen, but that is what the continuity department is for.

On the other hand, there is a fair lot of retarded stories out there, most stemming from comics or moronic cartoons for ten-year-olds. For handling those, I see no problem with applying Stradley's methodology.

[PainRack]

http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 33/p8/?107

The connunity errors.

And interestingly, the fans are more pissed over Mandalorians errors, including obscure branches of history rather than one of the main continuity glares.

The problem was that while AOTC DID give us 1.2 million units, which everyone from the novelisation to shatterpoint took as 1.2 million clones, what people failed to realise was it was her stunningly idiotic attempt to defend this number that got her the shaft from many fans.

Although I too am stunned at what happened to Scout.

[Batman]

Problem is Lucas DIDN'T (directly) authorize most if any of the EU. He delegated that job to LFL, who made a complete mess of it. At best you can blame the man for not making sure the guys at LFL would care about continuity as well as sales. And since he apparently doesn't particularly care about the EU anyway...
Yes, the mess that is the EU by now (probably has been since there WAS such a thing as an official EU) is a disgrace. But if you want to blame someone, blame the people at LFL who apparently didn't even to bother read the garbage they declared canon.

[Thanas]

Thankfully, some writers will retcon it in the future. I am deeply convinced by this - remember how Timothy Zahn put an end to all the KJA Daala superweapons with two lines? Similar things may happen.

I hear Zahn has a new novel out in 2011.....

[Darksider]

Although I too am stunned at what happened to Scout.

I've heard nothing about this, since I've avoided anything Traviss wrote after "True Colors" like the fucking plague.

Scout was one of my favorite characters in Dark Rondevous. Just what the fuck did that vapid whore'oa do to her?

[Stofsk]

Thankfully, some writers will retcon it in the future. I am deeply convinced by this - remember how Timothy Zahn put an end to all the KJA Daala superweapons with two lines? Similar things may happen.

I don't recall immediately - can you enlighten me?

I hear Zahn has a new novel out in 2011.....

As much as I absolutely love the Thrawn trilogy, I don't think anything he's written for SW since then has reached the same level of awesome. The follow up duology was ok but not great, and Survivor's Quest/Outbound Flight wasn't that great (although I liked Outbound Flight a lot, more than Survivor's Quest). I haven't read Allegiance though.

[Vympel]

remember how Timothy Zahn put an end to all the KJA Daala superweapons with two lines?

No. What's the story?

Going over reviews of her previous crap, it's amply clear why she left - her absurd, implausible vision of the perfect Mandalorian society of salt-of-the-earth, common folk manly men toiling the farms on Mandalore whilst hand-knitting their BESKAR!!!! wank armor and being better than everyone else in the galaxy at everything (and looking down their noses at the spoon-bending Jedi, against whom they are obviously superior), in one fell swoop, has been annihilated by TCW changing Mandalore to an uninhabitable rock save for the Mandalorian's strange 'cube-like' cities.

Suck shit.

[Thanas]

remember how Timothy Zahn put an end to all the KJA Daala superweapons with two lines?

No. What's the story?

Have you ever read KJA's Jedi Academy trilogy? In it he has Daala's super-secret-lab-staffed-with-genius-scientists-who-just-happen-to-have-disappeared-without-anyone-noticing invent several dozens of superweapons - like a magical drill that somehow punctures armor plate of warships and makes the warships implode due to billions of tiny, tiny leaks. Or grenades having three times the destructive power and other such idiocy that completely flies in the face of logic.

At the end of the book, Daala escapes with all the data to the Imperial systems where she hopes to start mass production of them and destroy the Republic.

Zahn eventually wrote his Hand of Thrawn duology, in which he said in a few throwaway lines that none of the ideas ever resulted in a useful practical application and that they were all a waste of time and resources.

[Batman]

Do you remember WHERE he wrote those few throwaway lines? Because I sure as hell can't remember any mention of Daala by name OR extension in it. Mind you, I'd be gladly proven wrong, but given how much I loathe the JAT/Darksaber I think I would have noticed Zahn essentially saying 'Guess what-nothing ever came of it'.

[Stofsk]

I vaguely remember something like that now that Thanas mentioned the duology. I think it was a scene where Pellaeon was commenting on the sorry state of the Imperial remnant forces (before I think it was officially called the Imperial Remnant - ugh).

[Thanas]

Do you remember WHERE he wrote those few throwaway lines? Because I sure as hell can't remember any mention of Daala by name OR extension in it. Mind you, I'd be gladly proven wrong, but given how much I loathe the JAT/Darksaber I think I would have noticed Zahn essentially saying 'Guess what-nothing ever came of it'.

He didn't mention Daala at all. He just mentioned the countless new weapon projects and how nothing ever came from it. So the projects, while not directly named, are still included because all of the projects, whether Daala's or someone elses did not result in anything usable.

I vaguely remember something like that now that Thanas mentioned the duology. I think it was a scene where Pellaeon was commenting on the sorry state of the Imperial remnant forces (before I think it was officially called the Imperial Remnant - ugh).

Yes, that's it iirc.

I am going from memory here - as I am in the process of moving, I do not have the book available. Maybe someone else, who has access can confirm?

[TheSpaceman?]

Traviss is out? The Sekt will flow tonight!

Just so this is not another useless, me-tooing post, I suppose I should add something to the EU discussion. As I see it, the EU has its place in continuity and should not be overridden willy-nilly just because Lucas feels like it. I care not a wit if it matches his Grand Vision (or rather, the version of it that is current now and will be for the next five minutes or so) or whatever - if he has authorised it as canon, he should take it into account. No one forced him to approve it, but he should at least stick to it once it is made. Continuity is not a casual consideration; he should at least attempt not to contradict established canon. Yes, with the size the material has now screwups will happen, but that is what the continuity department is for.

On the other hand, there is a fair lot of retarded stories out there, most stemming from comics or moronic cartoons for ten-year-olds. For handling those, I see no problem with applying Stradley's methodology.

I have to disagree, despite some weird quirks with the Vos storyline, the humor of the new CLone Wars cartoon, and the super Jedi of the old one, I feel the Clone Wars comics and cartoons add more to the universe(and really feel less out of place) than a lot of the stories of the novels. Particularly the post-RotJ novels.

[DrMckay]

While I'm glad she's gone, I don't think that the EU will ever get better. So many of the authors are focused on trying to keep the status quo-Evil empire vs plucky rebels.

One of the appeals of the later EU to me was that the former rebels and outsiders who have been "sticking it to the Man" now are the Man, and must respond to terrorism and internal threats as well as fighting a war, usually in a rather scummy way, see the NR's paper thin reason for invading the Ciutric Hegemony: They wanted to try its leader for the murder of Grand Vizer Sate Pestage.

While I like parts of what it was, I detest what the Star Wars Expanded Universe has turned into.

We’ve gone from having to suffer through a few horrible books (the Crystal Star, Planet of Twilight, anything by Kevin J. Anderson, and a few others I don’t even want to think about,) to read good things, like the Two Han Solo Trilogies (Young Han solo, and his adventures in the Corporate Sector,) The X-Wing books, The Thrawn Trilogy and Duology, as well as some of the stories in the “Tales of…” books. They went from good stories with well-written characters, to basically all the books and overarching plots being horrible.

The hell with the biowanky ooh-rah masochistic pain cult of the Yuzzhan Vong, the Hell with Karen Traviss, and her Mandalorian Wankage, and the hell with people who think a bunch of identical clones and uber-powered snotty Jedi turning into overpowered and angsty Sith make a good story instead of unique, compelling characters in a fascinating universe, y’know, like Lucas did in the beginning before all the money from his toy franchises turned him to the Dark Side.

For those of you who aren’t aware or were too young to remember what good Star Wars books looked like, I pity you.

[18-Till-I-Die]

So I decided to actually look at this cooks website to see if it actually gave some notion as to why she seemed to instinctively hate Jedi and I discovered that appearently George Lucas is a Nazi slave owner.

Q: Is it true you hate Jedi?

A: I get asked this a fair bit. Well, you asked, so you'd better be ready for the answer. Because it's not funny, on-message Karen talking now. This is about serious stuff - psychological underpinnings of attitudes.

And "you" here means - if the cap fits, honey, then wear it.

No sane human can hate someone who doesn't actually exist. From a writer's perspective, the more super-powers characters acquire, the harder it is to develop logical story arcs and true human drama...but I don't have any real feelings about fictional characters that stay with me once I step out of character-point-of-view-writing mode and get on with my life. The characters don't exist. I recognise, though, when they press a button in me and I see they're a conduit or a cypher for stuff I don't like in the real world. I'm very self aware. When a character pisses me off - not as a writer, but as a person - I ask: "Okay, what does this tell me about myself?"

I can do that, however uncomfortable it is. It's the reason I can change my mind if I'm presented with new facts. I recognise I don't have a permanent right answer in my head, and that my own subconscious needs to be dragged out into the light of day on a regular basis.

My real problem, then, is not with fictional Jedi, but with the people who refuse to believe they can do wrong. And by that I mean the people who believe it, not the harmless majority who just enjoy Jedi-centric stories as entertainment. I know just how deeply held that conviction is by some folks, and when those people try to argue a certain specific point with me, I can see that their line between fiction and reality is way too blurred. I can see their real views on life surfacing. I know where my real views impinge on the unreal, so I can see it in others.

The fiction you regularly choose, and the passion with which you defend it, tells me an awful lot about what goes on in your head. Very few people deliberately choose to read material - fiction or otherwise - that doesn't reinforce their real-life worldview. Most people don't set out to be alienated or offended by their reading material. They tend to settle with what they like - what fits their comfort zone. So if you get pretty het up about anyone suggesting the Jedi might have made a few immoral decisions - or anything else, come to that - chances are it relates to something you actually believe in for real. It wouldn't upset you otherwise. Would it?

I start to back away from Jedi-worshippers at that point. I'm troubled by deferential forelock-tugging to supposed genetic superiors at the best of times, which is why I personally find the genetic Jedi concept sinister, but there's an especially disturbing kind of butt-kissing that makes me recoil. It's the kind that says the Jedi are always justified when they do seriously bad shit, because - well, they're the good guys, and what good guys do is never bad, right?

Well, I worry that it's even less naively benign than that in adult readers. Like the big guy in black said - look into your heart. You know it to be true. Okay, you've been told they're the good guys. If you're a child, I'll cut you some slack. But if you're not, I have to ask if you believe everything you're told as obediently and unquestioningly as that in real life. Because if you do, you scare me.

Now, if you like Jedi because Luke is basically an ordinary guy who finds the hero in himself, great. If you like lightsabers and impossible martial arts moves, bully for you. If it's just fun for you, and you don't feel mortally wounded when someone suggests that the Jedi might not actually be completely perfect, fine. You pass the harmless test.

But once you're past the age of puberty and you start arguing passionately with me that the Jedi were right to accept a slave army of cloned human beings and use them in war, and cloned humans aren't proper humans like us, and it was too bad the clones died, and the Jedi had no choice - well, sweetheart, I want to run a mile from you. Not the Jedi, who - just to remind you - are a figment of various writers' imaginations, just like the clones. You. If I see that you really mean it, and you're making excuses in your own mind for the Jedi just following orders on that delicate point, then you scare the living crap out of me. For real.

Because it's clear to me that you believe deep down in real life that some human lives are worth less than others, and so it's okay to end them. Whether you realise that or not. Because if you don't believe it at that fundamental level, then why do you get so damned angry with me when I rock the boat of your fictional beliefs? It's just a kids' fantasy story. You could shrug and move on. But the fact that you rage about it means it's hit a real nerve in you, in the core of your real beliefs.

So, either you're nuts, and you genuinely believe that an evil wizard who shoots lightning out of his fingers is threatening your well-being, or you might just have some ugly supremacist attitudes to your fellow man that you can't acknowledge even to yourself.

Am I making you feel uncomfortable? I hope so.

I'm sure you think you're a nice decent person who's kind to animals, recycles faithfully, and fills in tax returns honestly. Maybe you believe in God, too. But to me, you're someone who harbours a vile and degrading belief in the concept of Untermensch - the idea that some humans aren't human at all, and we can do as we like with them, for whatever arbitrary value we put on the words "real human." You're looking for ways to sift your kind of human from the humans who don't matter, and who can be consigned to the fate of animals. In fact, if you use the phrase "real humans" at all, my case is proven.

That belief in a league table of humans - and the casual acceptance of it by nice people who were kind to animals and filled in their tax forms on time - led to the enslavement and murder of millions.

It's slave-owner-think: it's Nazi-think. And yes, I bloody well hate it.

It's not about Jedi - who don't even exist. It's about you.

This is so precious, see what she did there? She's trying to deflect the question by turning it into an argument about eugenics and evoking Nazism. I wanted to post this in case some people still weren't aware this bitch is crazy. Since she's on the way out I wanted a living record of why all this crap got started.

Because apparently, there is something "sinister" about the fact that Jedi powers are genetically inherited traits, and George Lucas is a White Supremacist. Also you got to love the smugness of it all. "If the cap fits honey, wear it!" who talks like that? Really. That sounds like dialogue from a fucking 1940s detective movie.

"She walked into my office and I knew she was trouble from the word go. She had more curves than a straight line drawn by Michael J. Fox and blue eyes that would make the Fremen jealous..."

[Old Plympto]

Wow. What a long-winded way to answer, "Yes. But I don't want to say yes with my boss listening. All you people suck."

[PainRack]

I've heard nothing about this, since I've avoided anything Traviss wrote after "True Colors" like the fucking plague.

Scout was one of my favorite characters in Dark Rondevous. Just what the fuck did that vapid whore'oa do to her?

She got sent off to the Agricorps, and eventually ended up on Mandalore. I didn't read what happened next.

So I decided to actually look at this cooks website to see if it actually gave some notion as to why she seemed to instinctively hate Jedi and I discovered that appearently George Lucas is a Nazi slave owner.
This is so precious, see what she did there? She's trying to deflect the question by turning it into an argument about eugenics and evoking Nazism. I wanted to post this in case some people still weren't aware this bitch is crazy. Since she's on the way out I wanted a living record of why all this crap got started.

Because apparently, there is something "sinister" about the fact that Jedi powers are genetically inherited traits, and George Lucas is a White Supremacist. Also you got to love the smugness of it all. "If the cap fits honey, wear it!" who talks like that? Really. That sounds like dialogue from a fucking 1940s detective movie.

"She walked into my office and I knew she was trouble from the word go. She had more curves than a straight line drawn by Michael J. Fox and blue eyes that would make the Fremen jealous..."

Laughably, the problem is Lucas already made Jedi to be non lily knights straight from TPM. From the maverick Qui Gon, to Yoda saying that too many Jedi were arrogrant, to the very fact that Anakin is now the epitome of the perfect Jedi, and yet, is similarly the exampler of what IS wrong with the Jedi..

It was the perfect setup for the Greek Tragedy. Star Wars, the modern day Greek hero tragedy where pride goes before the fall. Or even that of Macbeth.

[Samuel]

Because it's clear to me that you believe deep down in real life that some human lives are worth less than others, and so it's okay to end them.

Well, that is the point of capital punishment.

In fact, if you use the phrase "real humans" at all, my case is proven.

They are organic robots. Note the clones don't fit this entirely, but there is no reason for them not to. After all, Order 66 shows they are hardwired to do certain actions.

[Vympel]

Her entire stupid screed is nothing but a vapid strawman / false dilemma attack- I highly doubt anyone ever said the deaths of clones was somehow more acceptable than the death of anyone else, it's just her invented bullshit. It merits no serious response, since she's not responding to any real claim. She proceeds from "Jedi had no choice but to lead the Clone Army" to "Jedi are obviously villains of the story". She's a fool.

To this moral nincompoop, she'd rather see an entire nation destroyed than see a ready-made army actually be used in its defence - because they're "slaves". Her entire self-righteous rant is an empty appeal to emotion, hence the vapid invoking of scary words like 'slaves' and 'Nazis' as opposed to any real attempt to justify her position.

For some reason, I doubt this idiot would declare a government that instituted conscription to defend the state from imminent attack "evil" or engaging in "slavery". In war, people die. Period. Whether they're Clones or normal humans - and yes that is quite an acceptable thing to say, since Clones are not normal (for anyone who paid fuck all attention in AotC, they've been modified to be less independent, and they'll follow any order without question) is immaterial. It doesn't make their generals 'evil' for leading them. She's just an idiot.

[Stofsk]

Wow. What a long-winded way to answer, "Yes. But I don't want to say yes with my boss listening. All you people suck."

She's deranged, and has a persecution complex. She wanks to the Mandalorians and Clonetroopers, so who's the real Nazi? You can't love Warrior-monks with ascetic virtues, but you can love faceless masses of cloned killers with guns.

She's a total lunatic with some serious projection issues.

[Havok]

Wow. What an idiot. See, this is what happens when you don't pay attention to your source material and just write whatever the fuck pops into your your stupid head. The entire Star Wars saga is based on the fact the *GASP* Jedi are not perfect. The first thing we learn about Jedi is that one turned on them and that lead to their destruction because a Jedi made a severe error in judgment. I.E. One of the first things we learn and accept as fact about Jedi is that they absolutely make mistakes.

Oh and when people use terms like 'honey' and 'sweetheart', and they aren't a waitress, a significant other or a parent talking to a child, it is just them talking down to you, but that is pretty fucking obvious.

[Thanas]

Wow. What a long-winded way to answer, "Yes. But I don't want to say yes with my boss listening. All you people suck."

She's deranged, and has a persecution complex. She wanks to the Mandalorians and Clonetroopers, so who's the real Nazi? You can't love Warrior-monks with ascetic virtues, but you can love faceless masses of cloned killers with guns.

She's a total lunatic with some serious projection issues.

Faceless masses of cloned killers who gleefully exterminate whole populations, to boot.

[Darth Hoth]

Problem is Lucas DIDN'T (directly) authorize most if any of the EU. He delegated that job to LFL, who made a complete mess of it. At best you can blame the man for not making sure the guys at LFL would care about continuity as well as sales. And since he apparently doesn't particularly care about the EU anyway...
Yes, the mess that is the EU by now (probably has been since there WAS such a thing as an official EU) is a disgrace. But if you want to blame someone, blame the people at LFL who apparently didn't even to bother read the garbage they declared canon.

Lucas is, as owner of the franchise and the various "Lucasfilm" corporations, the proverbial "head honcho" ultimately responsible for the continuity. Furthermore, he does take an interest in at least some EU (Dark Empire and the Tales of the Jedi stories are one example - KJA mentioned in a foreword how he had received input from Lucas there - Knights of the Old Republic is another, where he backpedalled hard and directly imposed retarded Prequel-style Jedi on a story set in the TotJ era against the wishes of the game's writers). That Lucas mostly just refuses to give a shit is only part of the problem; when he does care, it is usually to insert inane ret-cons that better fit his Grand Glorious Vision(TM) of what Star Wars should look like - as it is right then and will remain for the next fifteen minutes.

I blame Lucas, both for the continuity management he does not do (or at least, put competent people at and give them sane directions for) and the laughable pet retcons he does put in, which solve nothing and just cause more screw-ups.

So I decided to actually look at this cooks website to see if it actually gave some notion as to why she seemed to instinctively hate Jedi and I discovered that appearently George Lucas is a Nazi slave owner.

*SNIP Retarded Horseshit*

More or less what she has been saying all along, if not quite so clearly put most of the time. The Jedi are evil and the clones are victims. I wonder if whoever replaces her as the chief writer will go on in hundreds of thousands of words about how evil it is to "exploit" 'droids . . . I wonder how she got the idea that the Jedi were perfect, though; I have argued at length elsewhere why the prequel Jedi were asshats. Were she smart, she could play up the more unsavoury parts of the Order (using child soldiers, taking children from their parents against their will, and so on) and actually introduce some real moral ambiguity . . . but no, instead she spews out pages and pages of laughable strawmen and pathetic bashing.

Faceless masses of cloned killers who gleefully exterminate whole populations, to boot.

Who did the clones exterminate in the prequel era? Was it something from one of the cartoons?