Mechwarrior 5! (Maybe)

[VF5SS]

It's Harmony Gold, purveyors of all things Robotech. They teamed up Playmates back in the day to re-release the old Matchbox Robotech toys under the Exosquad banner. FASA got mad and sued and suddenly found themselves losing the ability to use the Unseens. Although technically Harmony Gold only has merchandising rights and not design rights. The Tokyo Supreme Court ruled that Big West, owners of the Macross franchise own everything in the show as far as characters and mecha while Tatsunoko (and by extension Harmony Gold) owns the animation itself and international merchandising rights. Then again, Battletech is a tabletop game so what doesn't qualify as merchandise?

Honestly all this does is reaffirm my assumption that nobody at Catalyst games or FASA knew what the hell they were doing and they still don't.

[Uraniun235]

Don't they have any lawyers working for them?

How much money would Harmony Gold presumably want in exchange for being able to use the designs? Or is this more of a corporate dick-waving "no we'd rather just sit on it right now, thanks" thing?

[VF5SS]

The first couple of announcements regarding the resurrection of the Unseens seemed really enthusiastic and they cited some vague "research" (even though all this shit is on Wikipedia). Somehow they missed a lawsuit that drastically altered their product line in the past :v Harmony Gold will no likely deal with them. There's some rumors that they are slowly pulling licenses in preparation for their "live action movie." Still, these are the same doucebags who have been trademarking and blocking releases of legit Macross shit for years.

The thing is though, FASA never had any real rights to any of the designs. If their rights trace back to the model company Nichimo then good job, you have the right to release 20 year old 1/200 scale plastic kits because that's all Nichimo has! Seriously though, merchandising licenses in Japan are pretty damn specific. With Macross toys for example, stuff is dolled out on a per scale basis. Like Yamato Toys has ok to make 1/200 scale trading figures so what Bandai did was make 1/220 scale trading figures of the same designs. And this is what we know now with the advent of the internet. Imagine trying to figure out who owns what back in the 1980's when no less than three different American companies all released Macross merchandise (under different names) totally separate of each other.

[Uraniun235]

Imagine trying to figure out who owns what back in the 1980's when no less than three different American companies all released Macross merchandise (under different names) totally separate of each other.

Did they all secure licenses, or was there a huge amount of corporate piracy going on at the time?

[Vendetta]

Imagine trying to figure out who owns what back in the 1980's when no less than three different American companies all released Macross merchandise (under different names) totally separate of each other.

Did they all secure licenses, or was there a huge amount of corporate piracy going on at the time?

They all secured licenses, or thought they did. And apparently all from different people, who were all legally able to license out the products for international use. (Except Tatsunoko weren't)

It's all rather confusing.

However, since Harmony Gold have literally no other source of income, they will never let go of this. Ever.

[VF5SS]

However, since Harmony Gold have literally no other source of income, they will never let go of this. Ever.

Actually that's false, Harmony Gold primarily deals in real estate and has a vast library of movies like Shaka Zulu and some other things. In fact from what I've heard the Robotech part of the business is quite small. It's really only kept alive through nostalgia and neckbeard.

[Uraniun235]

I dunno, given the economy, that real estate division might not be doing so well.

[Chris OFarrell]

I'm wondering if the reason the 'Unseen' are now 'Seen' again is because as Microsoft licensed the Video Game rights to Mechwarrior games to this new team, the Microsoft 'hired by Satan' legal team politely told Harmony Gold to STFU when they objected to the use of the 'Unseen' mechs again.

[VF5SS]

Except Catalysts games bought the rights back from Microsoft and were trying to get a game made by Piranha Games right? And I think you guys still aren't getting this so I'll have to use bold text. FASA never had the rights to use those designs. If I may make a tortured analogy, say Kenner tried to sub-license their toys to some German company. And that German company decided to take the designs, throw in a few from Battlestar Galactica, make up their own story for the designs and make their own collectible card game that soon became a smash hit all across Europe. Don't you think George Lucas would be mad?

[Vympel]

Are they going to hurry up and make Mechwarrior 4 available for download, or what?

[Uraniun235]

Except Catalysts games bought the rights back from Microsoft and were trying to get a game made by Piranha Games right? And I think you guys still aren't getting this so I'll have to use bold text. FASA never had the rights to use those designs. If I may make a tortured analogy, say Kenner tried to sub-license their toys to some German company. And that German company decided to take the designs, throw in a few from Battlestar Galactica, make up their own story for the designs and make their own collectible card game that soon became a smash hit all across Europe. Don't you think George Lucas would be mad?

yeah but since when was btech a "smash hit"? :v

More seriously though, I think your analogy is flawed; wouldn't it be like Kenner getting mad while George Lucas goes on without even hearing about the card game? When did Japan ever get legal on FASA for their Macross/etc ripoffs? I thought it was all a big catfight between various American companies.


(I think you're still not getting that nobody here appears to care about the interests of the Japanese IP holders )

Are they going to hurry up and make Mechwarrior 4 available for download, or what?

Here's a quote from someone who's allegedly working on it:

It's because we don't know when we will be done with what is left to do. Unfortunately I only work on this during my freetime as I have a job and family that also demands my time. The last thing I want to do is rush this out the door only to have a huge mess to clean up down the road.


0) The initial build with all the maps and updated software for 3.1 was released to the beta testers yesterday. In the meantime we are woring on:
1) Updating the campaign game to include the new mechs and weapons along with the MS mechpack mechs
2) Work is forging ahead on the auto updater and the infrastructure necessary to support it
3) Mekmatch cluster server integration into the game

When all these are done and tested and we feel it will be reliable then we will deliver it.

Sounds like they're blowing a lot of time on shoehorning in their community-created content.


Oh, here's more from their FAQ:

Q: What will be free?

A: Clan Pack, Is Pack, Mech 4 Mercs are all included. Mech 4 Vengeance, Blackknight will not be included. We do not have the technology to support it or the capabilities to remove the copy protection and everything else that goes along with these.
Though it seems as though it will not be possible for us to release Vengeance and Black Knight with the initial release of Mercs, we will continue to look into the possibility of releasing them, or at least their campaigns, at a later date. Hopefully using the built-in patcher that we are developing.

...

Q: What if we are not fans of the Mek Tek mech packs. Will there be a option of only installing Mercs, Clan Pack, and the IS Pak?

A: Nope.

Later in that thread someone mentions that someday they might work out a Vengeance/Black Knight release as well, although it's made pretty crystal-clear that the guys driving this project are very much approaching it from the standpoint of people who are still (!) playing MW4 multiplayer online.

[Vympel]

Ugh, mechs they inserted themselves? Yuck. I bet they look like ass.

[VF5SS]

yeah but since when was btech a "smash hit"? :v

Supposedly over 25 million people have played Battletech or one of its spinoffs. That's not bad for a tabletop game. It certainly seems to be a fairly health franchise or at least it was at some point.

When did Japan ever get legal on FASA for their Macross/etc ripoffs? I thought it was all a big catfight between various American companies.

From what I've come to understand, Big West's attempts at sorting out rights issues over Macross were fairly recent. The court case when they asserted their IP rights over Macross was in 2002. Harmony Gold vs. FASA was in 1996.

(I think you're still not getting that nobody here appears to care about the interests of the Japanese IP holders )

Harmony Gold seems to at least since it directly affects what they can do with Robotech. See their latest awful shit movie where returning Macross characters are made to look completely different.

Check out how they quickly altered that iconic picture of the Warhammer into something new. Looks like Catalyst is going to ignore their previous "re-seen" versions from Project Phoenix and make design people will actually like.

[PainRack]

What I want from a new Mechwarrior game

1. Better AI. Serious. It took until MW4 for there to be a good AI, where your "allied" mechs were actually useful. Yet, the weapons/damage combo still made having good allies infuriating.

And that was almost 10 years ago. There are a lot of stuff out there in other games which means what I suggest here should be doable.

I want an AI that features an enemy that actually reacts to you. The mechs in MW2 and 3 either followed a pathing script or had a semi-threat radius, which means you can systematically clear mechs one on one. MW4 and Mechcommander added something, which was an additional threat factor from sensor contact, be it when you activate your radar in MW4, or creating a fire in Mechcommander. However, it was still primarily a threat radius mechanism similar to playing WOW.Falcon 4.0 already introduced something new, when flying missions had fixed defences and enemies that could react to you and attack you, as well as missions where you interact with a huge number of other elements such as SEAD strikes failing= strike package fail, or your SEAD could be called off as your strike package was called off due to them being intercepted. We now had a Director AI in L4D, which customise and interact the enemies being thrown at you.
So, why not have an AI which would actually allow enemy Mechs to assist each other and turn mech battles into something else other than 1 on 1 attacks? You strike an enemy patrol, other mechs on the map will react and move to your location. If you're lit up as an enemy on a sensor contact, you're not going to be hit by the mech unit locating you, but rather, by the enemy enemy unit. That would allow for other tactics, as well as really making non weapons equipment useful. Guardian and advanced sensors, BAP,.... which would improve your side ability to avoid the enemy gangbanging on you. You can even feature missions in which you have to hit comms, sensory installations or jam enemy units, equalling to more tactics and actual simulation.

2. Weapons and Aiming.
There should be some real drawbacks as well as being able to intergrate all weapons. As it is, nobody mounts SRMs or Large lasers. So, keep the current autocannons and PPC kinetic effect(well, reduce the lighter AC effects seen in MW4). But let's do something else.
Namely, introduce locking on for all weapons. Here's my suggestion.
Game weapons range for long, medium, short would have different lock on times. So, when you medium laser is at 390m, it would take longer to lock on than it would at 60m. This means there is once again a reason to mount long range weapons like large lasers and ac/2,5.
You can fire without the lock on but there are drawbacks. Weapons could "miss" and do no damage.Link that percentage to the range, so people won't go mounting small lasers and spray and pray. And no, this has nothing to do with my armour theory:D
We can further customise weapons. Different weapons classes would not only be different in the sense of recharge time, they would also have different lock on times and maybe special effects. Autocannons may take the longest to lock on, but they have the highest percentage of hitting without a lock on and their "recharge" time is the shortest. Missiles may take the shortest time to lock on, but they have damage degradation or wide spread. Lasers are medium lock on time.

We could even make other equipment useful again, although the game is set in 3015, there are still specialised sensory equipment along with standard ECM. AA for the Rifleman for example, along with the House rules introduced for various mechs such as the Clint.

All this would make gameplay more involved and make it truer to Battletech game rules, without the drawbacks/game balance of random location hits.

[Uraniun235]

You can fire without the lock on but there are drawbacks. Weapons could "miss" and do no damage.Link that percentage to the range, so people won't go mounting small lasers and spray and pray. And no, this has nothing to do with my armour theory:D
We can further customise weapons. Different weapons classes would not only be different in the sense of recharge time, they would also have different lock on times and maybe special effects. Autocannons may take the longest to lock on, but they have the highest percentage of hitting without a lock on and their "recharge" time is the shortest. Missiles may take the shortest time to lock on, but they have damage degradation or wide spread. Lasers are medium lock on time.

The game should not have weapons traveling through or striking the opponent and still register it as a miss, it looks completely shitty and is aggravating as hell. A big component of games is positive feedback - the player should be rewarded for appearing to hit the target.

I think in order to get AC2 and AC5 in use you're going to have to provide players with compelling reasons to trade the unlimited ammo of a laser for the limited, heavy and explosive ammo of an autocannon.

Also I thought large lasers were for lighting shit up at 600+ meters (390 seems positively medium-range to me, like damn near everything but SRMs, small lasers, and AC/20s), but maybe I've been playing too much MW2 lately.

[Steve]

It's because you're playing MW2. 3015 era Large Lasers aren't 600m range, they're 450m range max.

[Nephtys]

There's two problems. Either you make the game mechanics superficially Battletech-related, with your own set of internally balanced lasers, autocannons, missiles, etc (Like MW4) or you slavishly take stats out of BT and put them in a sim where they don't actually make playable sense (MW3's 7 point ER Medium Lasers instagibbing legs).

To make AC2s and 5s useful, you probably want to make them useful in the tabletop too, which is no small feat. I think they should become like pulse weapons, and be more handy for attacking fast, light units or aircraft.

And yeah Uraniun, you're playing with smelly ER Large Lasers.

[Uraniun235]

Oh, I know what I'm forgetting - MW2 is all Clan tech. Sometimes I forget there was that whole Clan/IS tech divide, because all of my initial exposure was MW2 and Ghost Bear, which were totally Clan-perspective.

It's because you're playing MW2. 3015 era Large Lasers aren't 600m range, they're 450m range max.

MW2's ER Large actually reaches out to around 900 (maybe 950?) meters, it's pretty beastly. ER Medium goes out to 500m.

[VF5SS]

One possible way to make certain weapons more useful again is to change how heat is handled. Like say energy weapons have lingering effects on the heat gauge while autocannons cool down quicker. That way heavy lasers could be used for mid to long range engagements where firing slowly is possible while autocannons can be used for frenetic combat at close range.

[Steve]

Oh, I know what I'm forgetting - MW2 is all Clan tech. Sometimes I forget there was that whole Clan/IS tech divide, because all of my initial exposure was MW2 and Ghost Bear, which were totally Clan-perspective.

It's because you're playing MW2. 3015 era Large Lasers aren't 600m range, they're 450m range max.

MW2's ER Large actually reaches out to around 900 (maybe 950?) meters, it's pretty beastly. ER Medium goes out to 500m.

Um? I'm pretty sure ER Larges don't reach 30 hex range for Clan or IS.

[Uraniun235]

MW2 probably got it wrong then. What about Gauss rifles, do those usually reach out to a mile?

EDIT: That's actually one of the hilarious things about MW2, most of the maps have their draw distance set such that you can almost never see out to a mile.

[MKSheppard]

That's actually one of the hilarious things about MW2, most of the maps have their draw distance set such that you can almost never see out to a mile.

Um, at the time, simply getting that many mechs working on screen at once, shooting at each other was a freaking accomplishment. I'm going off an old game interview of a MW2 person, in which the game was about to be cancelled because it was literally 2-3 mechs at once; due to memory limitations, and a tiger team worked on it, and used a protected memory mode expander to get it up to something that actually worked.

[MKSheppard]

Ah here we are:

During development, the game (surely to be cancelled due to the money lost, and 2 year delay) was put on hiatus, because of memory limitations, (The game engine was only capable to have one mech onscreen at a time) Two programmers took the project on thier own time, and rebuilt parts of the engine, alleviating the memory limitations, and allowing more mechs onscreen. After Activision found out, they cancelled the hiatus, and with a new team, continued development.

[PainRack]

The game should not have weapons traveling through or striking the opponent and still register it as a miss, it looks completely shitty and is aggravating as hell. A big component of games is positive feedback - the player should be rewarded for appearing to hit the target.

So? In real life, you can shoot at an enemy tank and do no damage whatsoever. Its called armour. And nobody complains about this in Close Combat 2, 3, 4 and 5. Hell, it added to the fun of setting up a complicated anti tank trap with infantry in 2 and 5 since both games had armour being king of the road, yet was primarily infantry based.

I think in order to get AC2 and AC5 in use you're going to have to provide players with compelling reasons to trade the unlimited ammo of a laser for the limited, heavy and explosive ammo of an autocannon.

Sure. Short reload times and the ability to spray and pray could work. I would want something more akin to MW2 reload times than MW4, although not so fast that it becomes an MG. Alternately, make it so that autocannons are really useful against aircraft, maybe in the sense that you can squeeze off multiple rounds and hope to hit them, whereas other weapons would miss them as they zoom by.

Also I thought large lasers were for lighting shit up at 600+ meters (390 seems positively medium-range to me, like damn near everything but SRMs, small lasers, and AC/20s), but maybe I've been playing too much MW2 lately.

That's MW2. In MW4, you can't really do that anymore.

Um? I'm pretty sure ER Larges don't reach 30 hex range for Clan or IS.

Steve, the game allows you to hit targets at extreme ranges. Your targeting doesn't register the target as within range, but if you time the shot correctly, you can hit targets that far away. Its fun to do that with SRMs at times, which give you IIRC 450m reach.

To make AC2s and 5s useful, you probably want to make them useful in the tabletop too, which is no small feat. I think they should become like pulse weapons, and be more handy for attacking fast, light units or aircraft.

Its impossible. AC/2 and 5 had their run in Level 1 play, in level 2 play, using these equipment or Ultras is insane. And yes, I know, I'm the one who designed an assault mech using two Ultra AC/5s..... Shudders.

[Stark]

The very notion of applying realistic or intelligent armour rationale to a Mechwarrior game is fucking hilarious. Hitpoint-based games with ablative armour mechanics and 'to-hit' rolls rationalised as deflection = roffle.

It's also funny that while MW could be a neat game, everyone is just wanking over a) the tabletop or b) the horrible older games. Let's hope MW is better than either?