Borg vs Jedi

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 02:59pm

TheDarkling wrote:Even if the Borg do exist within the force it seem likely that they exist on a different level of it like the Vong so to Jedi it will still seem like the Borg are absent from the force.

Helm: The Vongs place in the force is like Infrared to Visual light in he EM spectrum, its there but a normal unaided human (or in this case Jedi) can't perceive it.

I'll concede to that. But only Jacen and the deceased (or so we think, hrm) Vergere would have it.

And I'll still say midicholorians still should play a big role in it all. But we'll have to wait to see more NJO books before the end. And hopefully, a new sourcebook for the NJO with updated material.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-10 03:04pm

Ah, another person crowing that because a Jedi can measure someone's potential with midichlorians, they must be the source of it(For an RL analogy, when checking someone for Hep B, they look for the antibodies the body will make when confronted with it. The antibodies aren't the source of the infection, just a barometer). The only other thing we know is they make life as they know it possible. Sounds like a similar little lifeform inside our cells, the Mitocondria.

As for the Force Layers thing, I don't know. The Borg will likely feel like moving holes to a Jedi at first, but one can easily target manually with their skills.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-10 03:07pm

Okay...you are saying the Force(the all powerful enerry field that binds all life together is only inherent in ONE GALAXY?!)

Do you even realize how fucking dumb that sounds?

Plus...then what was the point of the Outbound project...why send Jedis to a DIFFERENT GALAXY if their powers are invalid?

Also
In TPM...Qui Gon EXACT WORDS Are as Follows:

They tell us the will of the Force.

Nowhere did he say that they are the Force..except the implication that if they didn't exist, ALL LIFE would not exist...not the Force...all Life.

He also states they exist in symbosis with it as well. Life creates the Force...the Force creates life...hmm sounds much like Yoda's ESB.

And if the Borg do not have midicholorians then by Star Wars standards they biological side never existed...hmmm sorta makes the whole battle moot then.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-02-10 03:46pm

Qui-gon, about midichorians: "They are inallliving things."

Emphasis mine.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-10 04:06pm

it was my understanding that the midichlorians just measure your force potential, and are not the potential itself? otherwise, you could just inject yourself with a few million and start turning off stars.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 04:06pm

SirNitram wrote:Ah, another person crowing that because a Jedi can measure someone's potential with midichlorians, they must be the source of it(For an RL analogy, when checking someone for Hep B, they look for the antibodies the body will make when confronted with it. The antibodies aren't the source of the infection, just a barometer). The only other thing we know is they make life as they know it possible. Sounds like a similar little lifeform inside our cells, the Mitocondria.

As for the Force Layers thing, I don't know. The Borg will likely feel like moving holes to a Jedi at first, but one can easily target manually with their skills.

That's the Jedi statement, that midicholorians do make life. But had the Jedi faced anything before in the galaxy without it? Or even from outside their own, when that statement was made? If the Jedi had somehow survived in greater numbers, with their more ancient Jedi (Qui Gon, for example) surviving the New Order and seeing the Vong, I'm sure that it would be some sort of paradox to them. That's just what the Jedi know and that's what they have been brought up to believe, that midicholorians make up life because that's how it works with the Force because it connects everything, or so they think.

And I agree with you on the last one, about the Borg.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 04:10pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Okay...you are saying the Force(the all powerful enerry field that binds all life together is only inherent in ONE GALAXY?!)

Do you even realize how fucking dumb that sounds?

Plus...then what was the point of the Outbound project...why send Jedis to a DIFFERENT GALAXY if their powers are invalid?

Also
In TPM...Qui Gon EXACT WORDS Are as Follows:
They tell us the will of the Force.
Nowhere did he say that they are the Force..except the implication that if they didn't exist, ALL LIFE would not exist...not the Force...all Life.

He also states they exist in symbosis with it as well. Life creates the Force...the Force creates life...hmm sounds much like Yoda's ESB.

And if the Borg do not have midicholorians then by Star Wars standards they biological side never existed...hmmm sorta makes the whole battle moot then.

Well I must have you on your end of your wits now that you're resorting to using the work Fuck in this

Can we agree to disagree Ghost Rider?

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 04:13pm

Enforcer Talen wrote:it was my understanding that the midichlorians just measure your force potential, and are not the potential itself? otherwise, you could just inject yourself with a few million and start turning off stars.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-10 04:15pm

Helm wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Ah, another person crowing that because a Jedi can measure someone's potential with midichlorians, they must be the source of it(For an RL analogy, when checking someone for Hep B, they look for the antibodies the body will make when confronted with it. The antibodies aren't the source of the infection, just a barometer). The only other thing we know is they make life as they know it possible. Sounds like a similar little lifeform inside our cells, the Mitocondria.

As for the Force Layers thing, I don't know. The Borg will likely feel like moving holes to a Jedi at first, but one can easily target manually with their skills.
That's the Jedi statement, that midicholorians do make life. But had the Jedi faced anything before in the galaxy without it? Or even from outside their own, when that statement was made? If the Jedi had somehow survived in greater numbers, with their more ancient Jedi (Qui Gon, for example) surviving the New Order and seeing the Vong, I'm sure that it would be some sort of paradox to them. That's just what the Jedi know and that's what they have been brought up to believe, that midicholorians make up life because that's how it works with the Force because it connects everything, or so they think.

And I agree with you on the last one, about the Borg.

Was there a point to that spiel, or what? Presumably they've never studied the Vong, but we know they do have a presense in the Force.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 04:19pm

SirNitram wrote:
Helm wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Ah, another person crowing that because a Jedi can measure someone's potential with midichlorians, they must be the source of it(For an RL analogy, when checking someone for Hep B, they look for the antibodies the body will make when confronted with it. The antibodies aren't the source of the infection, just a barometer). The only other thing we know is they make life as they know it possible. Sounds like a similar little lifeform inside our cells, the Mitocondria.

As for the Force Layers thing, I don't know. The Borg will likely feel like moving holes to a Jedi at first, but one can easily target manually with their skills.
That's the Jedi statement, that midicholorians do make life. But had the Jedi faced anything before in the galaxy without it? Or even from outside their own, when that statement was made? If the Jedi had somehow survived in greater numbers, with their more ancient Jedi (Qui Gon, for example) surviving the New Order and seeing the Vong, I'm sure that it would be some sort of paradox to them. That's just what the Jedi know and that's what they have been brought up to believe, that midicholorians make up life because that's how it works with the Force because it connects everything, or so they think.

And I agree with you on the last one, about the Borg.
Was there a point to that spiel, or what? Presumably they've never studied the Vong, but we know they do have a presense in the Force.

The point that they say it makes up all life because they have not seen anything to contradict that.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-02-10 04:23pm

That's kinda a given, any dialogue must be kept in context of what the person knows.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-02-10 05:06pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:Actually, the Borg can take down starfighters pretty easy. In The Best of Both Worlds II, the cube removed a small group of fighters with ease.
Of course, it sorta helped that the fighters all flew in a nice, straight line in close formation at a uniform velocity and never even attempted to make one evasive manoeuver.

That's because it's difficult to maneuver if every time you want to change course you have to enter several coordinates in a LCARS keypad thing

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-02-10 05:14pm

Helm wrote:
Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:Borg drones are weak minded, a Jedi can persuade one (which means all since their collective consciousness) to do anything he wants.
Incorrect. The Borg Hive mind is essentially one mind, made up of billions of other minds. The phrase "two minds are better then one" come to mind.

Not to mention, since the Borg are not from the Star Wars galaxy every trick a Jedi had except with alter-jedi powers would be useless against the Borg Collective.

Great, another trekkie who thinks Force lightning will dissipate harmlessly through any Star Trek lifeform (like federation crewmembers).

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-10 05:20pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Helm wrote:
Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:Borg drones are weak minded, a Jedi can persuade one (which means all since their collective consciousness) to do anything he wants.
Incorrect. The Borg Hive mind is essentially one mind, made up of billions of other minds. The phrase "two minds are better then one" come to mind.

Not to mention, since the Borg are not from the Star Wars galaxy every trick a Jedi had except with alter-jedi powers would be useless against the Borg Collective.
Great, another trekkie who thinks Force lightning will dissipate harmlessly through any Star Trek lifeform (like federation crewmembers).

Thats what happens with the Vong and since evidence of the force isn't there in trek it would seem that trek people occupy the same force level as the Vong (or another such level).

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-02-10 05:23pm

Helm wrote:Well I must have you on your end of your wits now that you're resorting to using the work Fuck in this

Can we agree to disagree Ghost Rider?

Oh no, the n00b also thinks that when a person swears their argument becomes invalid! I wonder if this one comes from SpaceBattles?

I hope you're wearing flame retardant clothes, because that's what you're going to get if you keep that up.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-02-10 05:24pm

TheDarkling wrote:Thats what happens with the Vong and since evidence of the force isn't there in trek it would seem that trek people occupy the same force level as the Vong (or another such level).

We're talking about a race with a specific ability. Does it apply now that any rare ability in the Wars universe is a given for anyone outside it? Every other universe has immunities by default?

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 05:33pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Helm wrote:
Grand Moff Yenchin wrote:Borg drones are weak minded, a Jedi can persuade one (which means all since their collective consciousness) to do anything he wants.
Incorrect. The Borg Hive mind is essentially one mind, made up of billions of other minds. The phrase "two minds are better then one" come to mind.

Not to mention, since the Borg are not from the Star Wars galaxy every trick a Jedi had except with alter-jedi powers would be useless against the Borg Collective.
Great, another trekkie who thinks Force lightning will dissipate harmlessly through any Star Trek lifeform (like federation crewmembers).

Oh no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no... FL is going to wipe the floor with their ass *L* because FL is a alter-type Force power. FL will hurt them *L* oh my will it hurt...

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-02-10 05:34pm

Slartibartfast:I assume you are going to show me why its unique to the Vong and their bioforms? and why its impossible for the Trek universe which hasn't displayed force abilities to also be in the same boat (as the lack of force ability would indicate).

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 05:35pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Helm wrote:Well I must have you on your end of your wits now that you're resorting to using the work Fuck in this

Can we agree to disagree Ghost Rider?
Oh no, the n00b also thinks that when a person swears their argument becomes invalid! I wonder if this one comes from SpaceBattles?

I hope you're wearing flame retardant clothes, because that's what you're going to get if you keep that up.

Nah, nothin like that. I'm just trying to joke a little, lift the mood. It's all cool. i'm not here to piss anyone off, that's not my intent here.

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-02-10 06:39pm

TheDarkling wrote:Slartibartfast:I assume you are going to show me why its unique to the Vong and their bioforms? and why its impossible for the Trek universe which hasn't displayed force abilities to also be in the same boat (as the lack of force ability would indicate).

In Destiny's Way scientists discover a completely unique genetic sequence in the Vong and all of their bioengineered creatures. One that had NEVER been seen before in the galaxy. They then used that sequence to create a bioweapon that would kill anything that possessed it.

Other than that particular sequence, Vong genetics were described as not being very unusual, and in fact being quite similar to human genetics.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 06:43pm

Kerneth wrote:
TheDarkling wrote:Slartibartfast:I assume you are going to show me why its unique to the Vong and their bioforms? and why its impossible for the Trek universe which hasn't displayed force abilities to also be in the same boat (as the lack of force ability would indicate).
In Destiny's Way scientists discover a completely unique genetic sequence in the Vong and all of their bioengineered creatures. One that had NEVER been seen before in the galaxy. They then used that sequence to create a bioweapon that would kill anything that possessed it.

Other than that particular sequence, Vong genetics were described as not being very unusual, and in fact being quite similar to human genetics.

Most every other humanoid is quite similar to human genetics. but this thing, about the genetic sequence... I must have missed that. What part of the book do you remember reading this in? *curious*

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-02-10 06:54pm

Jacen Solo is talking to Danni Quee while they're out scuba diving a reef on Mon Calamari, and she mentions she's out of a job, that all the scientists on the Vong project are, then says that's not exactly true that a handful of the bioengineers had been moved to some secret location and she hadn't been able to get in contact with them. Then she mentions this mysterious Vong gene sequence.

The exact page is 271. Danni Quee: "It has to do with Yuuzhan Vong genetics--which are generally like ours, by the way." "There's one bit of genetics that isn't like us. There's a sequence that seems completely unique, and it's common to all Yuuzhan Vong life. Yorik coral, yammosks, plant life, the Yuuzhan Vong themselves. All of it."

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 07:07pm

Fascinating. Thanks for the info!

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-02-10 09:02pm

TheDarkling wrote:Thats what happens with the Vong and since evidence of the force isn't there in trek it would seem that trek people occupy the same force level as the Vong (or another such level).

Wait. Jacen uses Force Lightning to great effect against the Vong on Corus--Yuuzhan'tar. Which means that Force based attacks won't dissipate harmlessly through the ST denizens either, especially since the UFP is human.

If I misunderstood you, ignore everything I said.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-10 09:05pm

TheDarkling wrote:Slartibartfast:I assume you are going to show me why its unique to the Vong and their bioforms? and why its impossible for the Trek universe which hasn't displayed force abilities to also be in the same boat (as the lack of force ability would indicate).

Ah, so the Trek universe is full of telepaths, certain high-order beings have telekinesis, etc., yet you insist that there is a "lack of force ability?" The fact that they don't give it THE SAME NAME does not mean these phenomena are absent from the Trek universe!