Ridiculous cost of clinical trials hinder new bug repellant

[General Zod]

LOL. Speaking of strawmen. . .

How is that a Strawman? I said if I considered it a drug. Wouldn't I have had to say something against your position to strawman you? They aren't drugs. Your point wasn't a valid comparison.

I was referring to "alternative medicine" in general. Not Ginseng or whatever in specific.

[Knife]

To turn it around, it should be up to you to prove that consumption of any dose of these 'herbs' are beneficial and/or harmful to prove your point.

[Knife]

LOL. Speaking of strawmen. . .

How is that a Strawman? I said if I considered it a drug. Wouldn't I have had to say something against your position to strawman you? They aren't drugs. Your point wasn't a valid comparison.

I was referring to "alternative medicine" in general. Not Ginseng or whatever in specific.

lol. He has a disconnect. He assumes that things you eat can be divided into two categories (at least). Drugs and food. He doesn't even consider the possibility that food is a drug. This shows his utter lack of understanding of biology.

[General Zod]

lol. He has a disconnect. He assumes that things you eat can be divided into two categories (at least). Drugs and food. He doesn't even consider the possibility that food is a drug. This shows his utter lack of understanding of biology.

Not to mention, anything that induces chemical changes in the human body once it's ingested is by definition considered a drug. Which is why caffeine is considered a drug even if it's commonly found in most drinks.

[Justforfun000]

Just to put this into a little bit of a more real life personal perspective...my mother had to take Dilantin for years because of Trigeminal Neuralgia. She had liver enzymes that were climbing higher and higher. I told her about milk thistle mainly and better yet, a comprehensive formula with other reputed liver supportive herbs. An lo and behold, her liver enzymes normalized. Not only that, her HDL cholesterol rose (which has also been attributed to milk thistle in some studies).

Listening to you people, I should go to her and say "Who gives a fuck that you are getting any personal benefit from this product, it isn't really proof. They told me you're just wasting your money and you're an idiot."

Yeah. In real life, that makes perfect sense instead of using the herbal that PROVED itself in your individual case which is all that really fucking matters in the long run.

[General Zod]

Just to put this into a little bit of a more real life personal perspective...my mother had to take Dilantin for years because of Trigeminal Neuralgia. She had liver enzymes that were climbing higher and higher. I told her about milk thistle mainly and better yet, a comprehensive formula with other reputed liver supportive herbs. An lo and behold, her liver enzymes normalized. Not only that, her HDL cholesterol rose (which has also been attributed to milk thistle in some studies).

Listening to you people, I should go to her and say "Who gives a fuck that you are getting any personal benefit from this product, it isn't really proof. They told me you're just wasting your money and you're an idiot."

Yeah. In real life, that makes perfect sense instead of using the herbal that PROVED itself in your individual case which is all that really fucking matters in the long run.

LOL appeal to emotion.

[Knife]

Just to put this into a little bit of a more real life personal perspective...my mother had to take Dilantin for years because of Trigeminal Neuralgia. She had liver enzymes that were climbing higher and higher. I told her about milk thistle mainly and better yet, a comprehensive formula with other reputed liver supportive herbs. An lo and behold, her liver enzymes normalized. Not only that, her HDL cholesterol rose (which has also been attributed to milk thistle in some studies).

Listening to you people, I should go to her and say "Who gives a fuck that you are getting any personal benefit from this product, it isn't really proof. They told me you're just wasting your money and you're an idiot."

Yeah. In real life, that makes perfect sense instead of using the herbal that PROVED itself in your individual case which is all that really fucking matters in the long run.

lol, indeed. Why did her doctor have her on Dilantin?

[Justforfun000]

lol. He has a disconnect. He assumes that things you eat can be divided into two categories (at least). Drugs and food. He doesn't even consider the possibility that food is a drug. This shows his utter lack of understanding of biology.

I'm well aware of that. ANYTHING can be defined as a bloody drug in the most basic definition. It still doesn't change the fact that you can actually make some definitive distinctions between certain classes of food, herbs and drugs. But the benefit of the doubt is never that I would know anything sensible, I simply MUST be stupid and uninformed and completely arguing from ignorance. I was right in the first place. I simply don't get a fair shake here. I would have taken it more personally before, but I've seen a lot of clique behaviour here over the years and there is a heavy pattern of certain people always being backed up and others constantly being jumped on even when they've said something utterly neutral and reasonable. My mistake in the past was angering too many major members when I was stubborn over some science vs. religious thought. I came around on those and finally understood, but I know that I'm not arguing anything ridiculous or insensible on this issue, but everyone sure seems to have a vendetta to make it look like I am.

LOL appeal to emotion.

And so again, throw out a fallacy name and discount the fact that the product actually produced real life results. What's the point? You obviously don't get, or don't CARE to get my real point so this is pointless to argue anymore.

[Justforfun000]

lol, indeed. Why did her doctor have her on Dilantin?

Because Dilantin is an anti-convulsant drug that is one of the drugs of choice. It's a nerve condition that causes excrutiating facial pain when the trigeminal nerve spasms. Pain medication does absolutely nothing for that kind of severe, stabbing pain.

I fail to see why that's funny...

[General Zod]

And so again, throw out a fallacy name and discount the fact that the product actually produced real life results. What's the point? You obviously don't get, or don't CARE to get my real point so this is pointless to argue anymore.

You know what else produce real life results? Placebos. But you don't seem to understand that throwing out anecdotes isn't going to convince anyone who wasn't inclined to believe in it already.

[Justforfun000]

You know what else produce real life results? Placebos. But you don't seem to understand that throwing out anecdotes isn't going to convince anyone who wasn't inclined to believe in it already.

Ah but if you're so smart, you should know that the placebo result dioesn't LAST. So if she continued on them for years and I switched her to sugar pills that looked like her liver herbs, then when her liver enzymes rose you would just say it would have happened anyway right?

You, from this exchange, have zero experience and training in anything remotely attached to chemistry, biology and medicine; however, want to justify a position in regards to these disciplines when people in those positions are telling you that you are full of bull poop.

Oh and I forgot to address this point. You would be mistaken. I studied a great deal of medicine and anatomy over the years. I know a lot about the human body and could give you details about the liver's 500+ functions, it's phase 1 and 11 detoxification pathways, the cardia and how in people with a laxity in the sphincture they develop GERD which can progress to Barrett's Esophagus, I'm aware of the pancreas and it's role in producing insulin, the gall bladder and how and why it produces and stores bile, and many other simple or complex subjects involving human health. You don't have to be a trained doctor or scientist to have any level of competent knowledge, and you just assuming I have "zero" knowledge just demonstrates your bias because I dare to argue in favour of unproven herbals.

[Knife]

I'm well aware of that. ANYTHING can be defined as a bloody drug in the most basic definition. It still doesn't change the fact that you can actually make some definitive distinctions between certain classes of food, herbs and drugs. But the benefit of the doubt is never that I would know anything sensible,

lol. Obviously not.

I simply MUST be stupid and uninformed and completely arguing from ignorance.

Ah, a refreshing breath of air.

I was right in the first place. I simply don't get a fair shake here.

When you speak stupid, yes...you don't get a fair shake. "Fair" in that you don't get a free pass.

I would have taken it more personally before, but I've seen a lot of clique behaviour here over the years and there is a heavy pattern of certain people always being backed up and others constantly being jumped on even when they've said something utterly neutral and reasonable.

Plenty of people can say the SAME STUPID shit and get called on it. Not a bias other than a bias against stupid.

My mistake in the past was angering too many major members when I was stubborn over some science vs. religious thought.

lol, persecution complex.

I came around on those and finally understood, but I know that I'm not arguing anything ridiculous or insensible on this issue, but everyone sure seems to have a vendetta to make it look like I am.[/qoute]

If you have a stupid position and decide not to make it public for fear of retribution, good for you. You still have a stupid position. Here is the deal; this place is known to smack down stupid positions not from self righteousness (mostly) but due to the fact that there is a wide diversity of professionals here. Want to bullshit your way with alternate medicine? Go some where where they don't have health care professionals there.

[Knife]

lol, indeed. Why did her doctor have her on Dilantin?

Because Dilantin is an anti-convulsant drug that is one of the drugs of choice. It's a nerve condition that causes excrutiating facial pain when the trigeminal nerve spasms. Pain medication does absolutely nothing for that kind of severe, stabbing pain.

I fail to see why that's funny...

Why assume pain meds cure a problem?

Why assume that an anti-convulsant drug cures the problem?

Why assume goats cheese will cure the problem?

[Knife]

Ah but if you're so smart, you should know that the placebo result dioesn't LAST. So if she continued on them for years and I switched her to sugar pills that looked like her liver herbs, then when her liver enzymes rose you would just say it would have happened anyway right?

Even if you are right, and I don't think so, you guessed right the first time. What about next time?

You feel all powerful now because you 'guessed right' without understanding the biology behind it. What if next time you kill her? What if you give her another condition next time, or this time but delayed a year or two.

You don't fucking know, yet are ridding on the high of being 'right' for a peculiar set of symptoms right now.

Oh and I forgot to address this point. You would be mistaken. I studied a great deal of medicine and anatomy over the years. I know a lot about the human body and could give you details about the liver's 500+ functions, it's phase 1 and 11 detoxification pathways, the cardia and how in people with a laxity in the sphincture they develop GERD which can progress to Barrett's Esophagus, I'm aware of the pancreas and it's role in producing insulin, the gall bladder and how and why it produces and stores bile, and many other simple or complex subjects involving human health. You don't have to be a trained doctor or scientist to have any level of competent knowledge, and you just assuming I have "zero" knowledge just demonstrates your bias because I dare to argue in favour of unproven herbals.

Sweet, might as well go get a job in a hosiptal with such a cool resume. Oh, wait....

[Stark]

Regardless of real or imagined qualifications, 'dude knowing stuff' doesn't PROVE anything. He can think or decide whatever he wants - those attitudes have zero scientific validity. Which is a shame, because HE thinks things are xyz useful or produce abc benefit (due to his real or imagined competence) but actual testing generally doesn't show jack shit.

But it makes him FEEL better. He FEELS like it HELPS. And if you don't agree, you're a blinkered, black and white awful person.

Imagine if you're old and you found out camel dicks really DID make your girlfriends tits bigger! YOU'D BE SORRY! Brilliant reasoning here.

[Knife]

Regardless of real or imagined qualifications, 'dude knowing stuff' doesn't PROVE anything. He can think or decide whatever he wants - those attitudes have zero scientific validity. Which is a shame, because HE thinks things are xyz useful or produce abc benefit (due to his real or imagined competence) but actual testing generally doesn't show jack shit.

But it makes him FEEL better. He FEELS like it HELPS. And if you don't agree, you're a blinkered, black and white awful person.

Imagine if you're old and you found out camel dicks really DID make your girlfriends tits bigger! YOU'D BE SORRY! Brilliant reasoning here.

Very true.

[Justforfun000]

If you have a stupid position and decide not to make it public for fear of retribution, good for you. You still have a stupid position. Here is the deal; this place is known to smack down stupid positions not from self righteousness (mostly) but due to the fact that there is a wide diversity of professionals here. Want to bullshit your way with alternate medicine? Go some where where they don't have health care professionals there.

Well I don't feel it's stupid and I fail to see any supporting logic actually PROVING it stupid, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, won't we?

Why assume pain meds cure a problem?

Why assume that an anti-convulsant drug cures the problem?

Why assume goats cheese will cure the problem?

Why are you asking me these silly questions? You asked me why they put her on Dilantin. I told you that it was a standard medical treatment for it and why. Is this an attempt at mockery for no reason?

Even if you are right, and I don't think so, you guessed right the first time. What about next time?

You feel all powerful now because you 'guessed right' without understanding the biology behind it. What if next time you kill her? What if you give her another condition next time, or this time but delayed a year or two.

You don't fucking know, yet are ridding on the high of being 'right' for a peculiar set of symptoms right now.

You're absolutely full of shit! You make it sound like I went traipsing through the forest and dug up some random herb and said "Hey mom, try this...maybe it'll heklp your liver". COMPLETELY disconting the fact that I'm basing my suggestion on herbal products with again *drumroll* clinical studies behind them showing promising but in some cases as of yet...not completely proven effects. BUT they are also herbs that have been used traditionally for centuries for people with liver conditions and they have a good safety profile, but absolutely NONE of this matters to you or my point.

Your just too biased against herbs and what they can offer and you are far too eager to dismiss centuries of usage as worthless in terms of any suggestion of efficacy or safety. Completely ignoring the fact that many herbs that are toxic or dangerous have LONG been identified even before the scientific method became entrenched.

When it comes down to it, I'll wager that me taking certain supplements will be cumulatively beneficial to me now and in the long run overall and maybe in 20 years you'll have your "proof". More importanly, I'll have my results when I need them. In my young lifetime!

[Knife]

You're absolutely full of shit! You make it sound like I went traipsing through the forest and dug up some random herb and said "Hey mom, try this...maybe it'll heklp your liver". COMPLETELY disconting the fact that I'm basing my suggestion on herbal products with again *drumroll* clinical studies behind them showing promising but in some cases as of yet...not completely proven effects. BUT they are also herbs that have been used traditionally for centuries for people with liver conditions and they have a good safety profile, but absolutely NONE of this matters to you or my point.

Your just too biased against herbs and what they can offer and you are far too eager to dismiss centuries of usage as worthless in terms of any suggestion of efficacy or safety. Completely ignoring the fact that many herbs that are toxic or dangerous have LONG been identified even before the scientific method became entrenched.

When it comes down to it, I'll wager that me taking certain supplements will be cumulatively beneficial to me now and in the long run overall and maybe in 20 years you'll have your "proof". More importanly, I'll have my results when I need them. In my young lifetime!

lol, I've gone over the whole 'poison and medicine is in the dose' bit earlier and you skipped over it.

[Stark]

Oh sorry, I thought you were basing your decisions on the age of traditional medicine (ie, 'that's why they've been using it for hundreds of years', the criticism of which set you off).

To clarify, saying something like that is fundamentally stupid because the voodoo process that produced USEFUL traditional treatments is almost the same as that producing USELESS ones. There was no science behind it - people used those traditional treatments for xyz years because that's what the voodoo priest/witch doctor/leech/etc told them to do. That MOST OF THEM are FUCKING USELESS demonstrates their selection process was totally broken, therefore the fact they were used for ages in no way bolsters their validity.

[Justforfun000]

But it makes him FEEL better. He FEELS like it HELPS. And if you don't agree, you're a blinkered, black and white awful person.

Imagine if you're old and you found out camel dicks really DID make your girlfriends tits bigger! YOU'D BE SORRY! Brilliant reasoning here.

Stark, that's not fair. How can you compare someone claiming to "feel" better to someone who demonstrates actual biological changes in their biochemistry of a very significant nature? The liver enzymes and cholesterol were my points of merit. When did I say it just made her "feel good"? For people insisting on evidence galore, you're completely ready to dismiss a very compelling one like a standardized set of blood tests.

[Knife]

But it makes him FEEL better. He FEELS like it HELPS. And if you don't agree, you're a blinkered, black and white awful person.

Imagine if you're old and you found out camel dicks really DID make your girlfriends tits bigger! YOU'D BE SORRY! Brilliant reasoning here.

Stark, that's not fair. How can you compare someone claiming to "feel" better to someone who demonstrates actual biological changes in their biochemistry of a very significant nature? The liver enzymes and cholesterol were my points of merit. When did I say it just made her "feel good"? For people insisting on evidence galore, you're completely ready to dismiss a very compelling one like a standardized set of blood tests.

Except you didn't get anything of the sorts except say her liver tests improved. I ate grapes yesterday and my daily shit came out easier. Unless you can show an increase in insoluble fiber in grapes that correlates with more frequent bowl movements, you 'data it means jack and shit. If you have data, then it probably cost a shitload to get, which gets us back to the OT.

[Justforfun000]

lol, I've gone over the whole 'poison and medicine is in the dose' bit earlier and you skipped over it.

I didn't address it because it's irrelevant. In reference to most herbs they are generally recognized to be safe in reasonable quantities, and potentially effective at treating or preventing some ailments. So what's your point? Look, either show a really good reason why I should treat all herbal products like they're deadly nightshade or sugar pills, take your pick, or stop exaggerating. They either work or they don't. They are either harmful in some way, to an individual, or they aren't.

To clarify, saying something like that is fundamentally stupid because the voodoo process that produced USEFUL traditional treatments is almost the same as that producing USELESS ones. There was no science behind it - people used those traditional treatments for xyz years because that's what the voodoo priest/witch doctor/leech/etc told them to do. That MOST OF THEM are FUCKING USELESS demonstrates their selection process was totally broken, therefore the fact they were used for ages in no way bolsters their validity.

So you're claiming that near 100% of traditional medicine herbals have been proven to be worthless and they have found virtually no supporting evidence that any of them are useful for their traditonal usages that have been abscribed to them over the centuries? Is that what you're stating as an absolute fact?

[Stark]

Holy shit you just don't get it.

This isn't a crusade against traditional medicine. It's a rejection of USELESS medicine (and potentially dangerous etc) which is why testing is important. Nobody really gives a FUCK if it's an ancient chinese solution to athlete's foot or whatever - only RESULTS matter. You know what happens to 'alternative' therapies when they're proven to work?

THEY'RE NOT ALTERNATIVE ANYMORE. They're actual, factual, testable and reliable therapies.

Championing 'alternative' medicine appears to be a tribal crusade here, dividing medicine into regular medicine and alternative, secret-of-the-ancients medicine you have to have an open mind to use. In reality, there are useful therapies, and useless therapies, and that's it. Testing is needed to determine the safety and efficiacy of a therapy.

[Erik von Nein]

JFF a single anecdote proves nothing. You have no way of demonstrating whether or not what you gave her did actually change her results. You're confusing causation with correlation, here. She improved after she went off the medication prescribed to her, but was it a result of a placebo benefit of this alternative stuff, a result of being taken off the medications (she could have been having a negative reaction to one or all of them), or was it actually this stuff giving her benefits? You can't answer that. There's a reason why studies are done on drugs in the first place, which you seem to consistently not understand.

Alyrium pointed out the poor methodology of the study you posted previously. You would need to find some with excellent methodology and good peer reviewing that would show these alternatives actually make a difference. If these alternatives actually demonstrated a real effect on health with few or lesser side effects then of course they should be used. But you haven't shown that with your single anecdote. Stark's right, you feel empowered because you made a decision and someone's health improved. Understand that you can have positive results even with faulty thinking, but this same faulty thinking could lead to even worse negative results in another situation.


EDIT: I also wanted to mention that "herbal supplements" have been shown to have real effects and then been refined and manufactured. Aspirin is an excellent example of an incredibly ubiquitous drug that has its root in natural settings. There's a whole host of drugs similar to Aspirin in that regard, so there isn't some massive conspiracy against herbs in the medical world, it's just that quite a few of these "supplements" have been shown to have no real effect on patients.

[Justforfun000]

Except you didn't get anything of the sorts except say her liver tests improved. I ate grapes yesterday and my daily shit came out easier. Unless you can show an increase in insoluble fiber in grapes that correlates with more frequent bowl movements, you 'data it means jack and shit. If you have data, then it probably cost a shitload to get, which gets us back to the OT.

Don't forget that ultimately the truth of this argument is not whether or not something is proven, it's whether or not something actually WORKS.

Her liver tests improved, and STAYED improved. In fact, there was a period I remember where she said she went off them for a month or so, just kind of petered out on taking them..felt fine...and just figured she was doing ok, but guess what? They rose again. So she started them up again. And guess what? They dropped again.

So I should still her she's an idiot and don't buy this? In real life, it's a stupid position. Unless it's an EXTREME coincidence, the herbals are doing exactly what they suggest.

Fuck, an elderly lady friend of mine who I lived with had severe arthritis. She had trouble picking things up, constantly complained of ache..I told her I had heard some good things about Devil's claw. She tried it, and swore it was like a miracle drug. She used it faithfully for the last 3 years of her life and had a huge improvement ever since she began with her symptoms. She tried a friend on it, but unfortunately it didn't work for her. That's the reality of some things too. There's a bell curve and what might be medicine for you might ineffective or poison for someone else.

The main point here is that SHE got benefit...her only "standard" form of treatment was NSAIDS which cause a host of serious problems when taken chronically and ultimately progress the disease in the long run.

But if I listened to your points of view as gospel, she wouldn't have had 3 years of improved quality of life. Why are you all being so obtuse in this regard? Would you need a study to prove that water is wet?