The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[Jamesfirecat]

The people left behind could be sensitives, beacons for the angels to home in on.

I personally doubt that Micheal got his choice among those who were going to give themselves up to die, but on the other hand I could be wrong, and I'll admit that this makes a particular sick kind of sense for why he might have saved some but not others....

Though I would think that they'd only be mildly sensative to the point that they're only useable as homing beacons rather than being able to open it, since after all if they were more powerful then we would have probably already detected them...

[tim31]

Luga could have gone for the nose, which I personally would have done in her position.

Yes, but then I couldn't have ended on that ghastly pun.

It was so worth it.

Probably be fap material for the people over at Something Awful though...

[EarthScorpion]

Luga could have gone for the nose, which I personally would have done in her position.

Yes, but then I couldn't have ended on that ghastly pun.

But it does open up a whole new field of puns for exploitation.

Like, "You've been a great help. No-one nose why you decided to open up like that."

[darthdavid]

Probably be fap material for the people over at Something Awful though...

Or, you know, Shroomy (bleeding breasts and all that...).

[Simon_Jester]

It's definitely a clue, I'll give you that.

However, I'm wondering. If they didn't have the advantage of that kind of illusion (which, by the way, will have to cause some changes in police law over time), would they have protested overly much if the scene had actually happened as described?

She's guilty of high treason; last I checked, that puts one in a pretty poor position, even if you don't have good proof at the moment.

Yeah, but we still have a constitution.

And no competent FBI agent is going to want to be the center (or near center) of the shitstorm that could result if it ever became public knowledge that they just sat there while an associated interrogator threatened to mutilate a suspect. I know I'd be highly ticked off if something like that hit the papers. We can laugh it off in the thread, but I don't think the public would laugh it off in real life.

The people left behind could be sensitives, beacons for the angels to home in on.

I personally doubt that Micheal got his choice among those who were going to give themselves up to die, but on the other hand I could be wrong, and I'll admit that this makes a particular sick kind of sense for why he might have saved some but not others....

Also, how did Michael even find them if they weren't sensitives? Presumably he was very busy portalling all over the place trying to build up a network of fifth columnists before all of said columnists died of thirst. He wouldn't have had much luck finding them if he'd just walked around a single city at random, so I'm pretty sure he was homing in on sensitives.

For that matter, the sensitives are the only ones he can know are fanatical enough to do what he wants; they're presumably ones he was keeping an eye on before the Message.

[Edward Yee]

Unfortunately, it seems unlikely to me that Michael would have given either NK or Myanmar any kind of information which could open up vulnerabilities for Heaven. Unless, of course, that oft-discussed hand truck really means something after all.

I was originally thinking that there was some sort of "homing beacon" onboard that trolley, either planted by an undercover officer working for HEA or by the Myanmar regime itself, but in retrospect I realize two problems with that: How did the undercover not get "made" by either the regime or Michael-lan, and how the heck would the regime be able to get its hands on such a beacon anyway? At most I think all the regime has to offer is the minutes of its dealings with Michael on Earth, which may have value if the conflict somehow becomes protracted enough to make such information (i.e. that Michael is a drug runner, or that he sometimes makes personal appearance) actionable, but it doesn't do anything for the HEA's immediate priority.

As for the question of Buddhism and the Message, a Buddhist officer early on in Armageddon talked about why he and presumably other believing Buddhists weren't susceptible to the message, and near the end of that story so did a Quaker. The Catholics on the other hand seem to have gone went with the "Yahweh is subverting OUR God, so fuck him, WAR JESUS" route.

The pun was pretty ghastly, unfortunately in a facepalm way.

Incidental thought, am I the only one who gets the sense that Michael-lan himself doesn't actually get human technology beyond its surface applications, at a late-Curb Stomp War-era demon level of understanding?

[Jamesfirecat]

Also, how did Michael even find them if they weren't sensitives? Presumably he was very busy portalling all over the place trying to build up a network of fifth columnists before all of said columnists died of thirst. He wouldn't have had much luck finding them if he'd just walked around a single city at random, so I'm pretty sure he was homing in on sensitives.

For that matter, the sensitives are the only ones he can know are fanatical enough to do what he wants; they're presumably ones he was keeping an eye on before the Message.

Oh and allow me to mention one other thing that I should have in my last post that makes me doubt these people are sensatives, if they were then they probably would have gotten taken down by the first Bowl of Wrath. Micheal has shown him self to be too good at "playing the game" to set up up pawns who were then going to be killed off by the colateral damage that he knows he's going to end up causing before long. So I really doubt these people are sensatives, I think they're just whoever he could find at the time....

Incidental thought, am I the only one who gets the sense that Michael-lan himself doesn't actually get human technology beyond its surface applications, at a late-Curb Stomp War-era demon level of understanding?

I won't say that you're the only one, but I've always thought that Micheal understood us humans a bit better than that, what makes you think that he doesn't understand how our technoligy works very well? After all he's had a lot of greatfull humans who he's rescued from Hell to talk to who would probably try to help fill him in on not only what the technoligy works and how it does. Granted they probably wouldn't be able to explain things beyond a high school level, but it'd still be a lot better then the Deamon's understood us...

[Simon_Jester]

Incidental thought, am I the only one who gets the sense that Michael-lan himself doesn't actually get human technology beyond its surface applications, at a late-Curb Stomp War-era demon level of understanding?

I doubt he understands the science very well, and I'm sure he hasn't thought through all the implications. But I suspect that he's a little higher than the late-war demons were. If nothing else, he's had more time and exposure to watch that technology grow. He can still be outmaneuvered or surprised, of course, but I think he's at least got the basics down.

Remember, the senior supernaturals are very intelligent by human average standards. Once they get over the culture shock of being faced with an outside-context problem, they start adapting very quickly. Michael has had plenty of time to get past the culture shock already.

Oh and allow me to mention one other thing that I should have in my last post that makes me doubt these people are sensatives, if they were then they probably would have gotten taken down by the first Bowl of Wrath. Micheal has shown him self to be too good at "playing the game" to set up up pawns who were then going to be killed off by the colateral damage that he knows he's going to end up causing before long. So I really doubt these people are sensatives, I think they're just whoever he could find at the time....

Hm. Good point. Though he still had to have some way of singling out the faithful; it would have been a bit conspicuous to have him just zipping around all over the place looking for catatonic Message-responders. Maybe he can put out a "you don't see me" signal the way succubi do, but it would still tend to work against his efforts to conceal his presence on Earth.

[Bayonet]

And no competent FBI agent is going to want to be the center (or near center) of the shitstorm that could result if it ever became public knowledge that they just sat there while an associated interrogator threatened to mutilate a suspect. I know I'd be highly ticked off if something like that hit the papers. We can laugh it off in the thread, but I don't think the public would laugh it off in real life.

Are you kidding? This is an extremely popular war. The public, in general, wouldn't care if they tortured her with red hot irons. The only people who would care are obviously enemy agents, and they must be liquidated. Anyone actually complaining would probably be arrested for sedition and suspicion of treason.

This is an existential exercise.

[Samuel]

And no competent FBI agent is going to want to be the center (or near center) of the shitstorm that could result if it ever became public knowledge that they just sat there while an associated interrogator threatened to mutilate a suspect. I know I'd be highly ticked off if something like that hit the papers. We can laugh it off in the thread, but I don't think the public would laugh it off in real life.

[/quote]

The government of the US got away with secret prison camps and water boarding in the Bush Administration. Messing with a prisoners mind won't get anymore of an objection- it doesn't leave any marks after all. That and the individual is collaberating with enemies of mankind. There is no doubt it would be highly illegal, but I don't know if case law yet covers projecting false images into a suspects brain.

[Ilya Muromets]

Fangs for the mammaries!

This is why I don't drink anything while reading this anymore -- I don't wanna risk liquid spewing out my mouth or going up my nose from the sheer lulz of the humor.

Oh, and Mikey-lan's not gonna be happy with the development on the North Korean front. Kim Jon-Il and Kim Jong-Un look like they're not just planning to throw a spanner in Mikey's planning, they're going to throw the entire toolbox. Actually refreshing to see North Korea portrayed that way. Though, given the curbstomping of Myanmar's military, not getting yourself targeted is the only smart. sensible option.

[Edward Yee]

Re: those humans who could supply Michael-lan with the technological knowledge: But what if he's not asking? The impression I get is that Michael is a "big picture" guy, and only cares about the details if there's a significant effect on his farther-reaching plans. In fairness, that doesn't seem to be the case that often, but he doesn't seem to have had much reason to seek people out for technological knowledge before the Curbstomp War, and tough luck trying to do so now.

I recall that Belial's group was rather unlucky with which humans they got to spill the beans as even though he was seeking targeting data and not technological knowledge his information was still incredibly dated, and unless Stuart's just keeping Michael's "kept for their technological knowledge" humans off-screen for now, I'm not sure that Michael will really get anything out of his Montematre Club humans that he couldn't have observed on his own on his pre-Message trips to Earth. In fairness, you all are right, that does put him above the demons of that period, but I don't think that he's that much more knowledgeable.

The only people who would care are obviously enemy agents, and they must be liquidated. Anyone actually complaining would probably be arrested for sedition and suspicion of treason.

This is an existential exercise.

I hope that you're just vocalizing what the general public opinion would be?

By the way, I don't recall the thread page number, but I wonder if that prisoner actually bit the bucket or whether she's been secreted away by someone for some reason?

[Edward Yee]

Oh, and Mikey-lan's not gonna be happy with the development on the North Korean front. Kim Jon-Il and Kim Jong-Un look like they're not just planning to throw a spanner in Mikey's planning, they're going to throw the entire toolbox. Actually refreshing to see North Korea portrayed that way. Though, given the curbstomping of Myanmar's military, not getting yourself targeted is the only smart. sensible option.

Amusing to see Kim Jong-il go from scared shitless to being bailed out by a son who can see the forest for the trees. Although compared to their real-life counterparts, the game is completely different now. I don't think they even had to see Myanmar's fall to know that realistically joining up with Heaven wouldn't do shit.

The hardware and maybe the manpower are welcome, but I similarly see North Korea as unable to give actionable intelligence to the HEA for the same reason as with the Myanmar junta, because what they have (their meetings and dealings with the angels) don't mesh with HEA's "portal into Heaven" priority.

[Sute]

The hardware and maybe the manpower are welcome, but I similarly see North Korea as unable to give actionable intelligence to the HEA for the same reason as with the Myanmar junta, because what they have (their meetings and dealings with the angels) don't mesh with HEA's "portal into Heaven" priority.

I'm not so sure about that. Heaven doesn't know about North Korea's decision to join the HEA yet. If North Korea can keep Heaven in the dark about it, then the next time Gabriel or some other angel shows up to try and get North Korea to attack there could be an unpleasant surprise for the angel and welcome intelligence for the HEA.

[Gil Hamilton]

If by "mild" you mean "was rendered temporarily blind and was therefore sitting helpless in a hospital bed when he got word that Germany had surrendered," yes.

Yes, that is a reasonably mild exposure to mustard gas.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'm curious to see the reaction of the west to North Korea joining the fight.

[Simon_Jester]

The government of the US got away with secret prison camps and water boarding in the Bush Administration. Messing with a prisoners mind won't get anymore of an objection- it doesn't leave any marks after all. That and the individual is collaberating with enemies of mankind. There is no doubt it would be highly illegal, but I don't know if case law yet covers projecting false images into a suspects brain.

I'm sorry, I screwed up. I should have made it clear that I was referring to the hypothetical case where Luga actually did what she made the suspect think she did. What she actually said was a fairly strongly implied threat, but what she made Branch think she did was a far more serious case of physical intimidation.

Unless they happen to seize on the "demonic mind control" aspect of the situation and decide to hate that, I think people would shrug off what did happen. But a tape recording what Branch thought happened could potentially set off a scandal. I don't know if it would, but it might, and with the example of what happened to a lot of the low-ranking soldiers at Abu Ghraib in mind, I think most FBI agents would be wary of cooperating with something like that.

Are you kidding? This is an extremely popular war. The public, in general, wouldn't care if they tortured her with red hot irons. The only people who would care are obviously enemy agents, and they must be liquidated. Anyone actually complaining would probably be arrested for sedition and suspicion of treason.

This is an existential exercise.

I don't know. I agree that a public freakout wouldn't be expected, but I could see it happening. The Abu Ghraib scandal happened when the Iraq War was still fairly popular, and so did the first grumbles about what was happening at Guantanamo. The Bush administration got away with it, yes. But imagine if those tortures had happened without high-level approval from the administration, if they had been low-level initiatives. In that case, I don't think that the higher-ups would be thanking the people on the ground who actually did the deed. I wouldn't care to be remembered by my superiors four or five links up the chain as "the guy who thought it was a good idea to torture a suspect and forced me to go testify at a Congressional hearing."

It's not a high risk, but it's a significant risk. One that I would prefer to avoid taking.

Amusing to see Kim Jong-il go from scared shitless to being bailed out by a son who can see the forest for the trees. Although compared to their real-life counterparts, the game is completely different now. I don't think they even had to see Myanmar's fall to know that realistically joining up with Heaven wouldn't do shit.

They've been monkeying around doing nothing of consequence for months now, remember? Obviously, they were still working on their delaying tactics even before the invasion of Thailand- either because Clever Son had de facto command from the beginning, or because Kim Jong Il was smart enough to see the situation to begin with. The fact that he's terrified into openly agreeing to do what Michael says doesn't mean that he's stupid or incompetent.

[Pelranius]

I'm curious to see the reaction of the west to North Korea joining the fight.

We already have Syria and Iraq providing relatively large contingents to the HEA, heck even the latter has a seat on the big 15 if I remember correctly.

Another good thing about the North Koreans joining the fight is that it means the South Koreans can also join in with both feet now.

It's important to remember that in real life, the DPRK leadership has behaved fairly rational (at least in achieving its goals) and been reasonably savvy about it. The junta is somewhat rational as well, but they're not nearly as intelligent. Think of the comparison between the two as the DPRK being Tony Soprano to the Burmese junta's Cobra Commander.

[Sarevok]

Something I don't get is why do angels not use technology ? Recall Abigor carrying a 30 mm cannon as an assault rifle. An Angel could be armored to resist virtually all gunfire and carry weapons that could bring down tanks and aircraft. Combining their supernatural strength, psi powers with modern weaponry would produce a fearsome soldier. The question is why has not Micheal secretly started arming his loyal followers ? He could have bought a lot of weaponry from Earth with his precious gems money.

[Serafina]

Something I don't get is why do angels not use technology ? Recall Abigor carrying a 30 mm cannon as an assault rifle. An Angel could be armored to resist virtually all gunfire and carry weapons that could bring down tanks and aircraft. Combining their supernatural strength, psi powers with modern weaponry would produce a fearsome soldier. The question is why has not Micheal secretly started arming his loyal followers ? He could have bought a lot of weaponry from Earth with his precious gems money.

Most inhabitants of heaven would propably not like to see something like that.
Besides, they would propably have a hard time aquiring most peaces of modern technology. They only have a few allies in some backwater places. They could offer them guns, but not much more, especially no superarmor (bodyarmor is not going to protect you againstt high calibers or missiles, anyway).
And it would impose logistical limitations on them - could they even unjam such a weapon? Someone would need to train them. I bet Abigor walked around with his RARDEN for show and did not receive much training at this point.
Besides, it is questionable if they could still fly carrying around a 30mm gun.

[Baughn]

They could attempt to figure out such things for themselves. At the very least, it would provide some comic relief when one of michael's angels shoots himself in the face trying to unjam it.

[Darth Yoshi]

Why would they? Angelic attacks can be made as long as the angel in question doesn't tire himself out. With firearms, they'd need to find a way get ammunition or they'll just end up with poorly designed staves.

[Jamesfirecat]

Something I don't get is why do angels not use technology ? Recall Abigor carrying a 30 mm cannon as an assault rifle. An Angel could be armored to resist virtually all gunfire and carry weapons that could bring down tanks and aircraft. Combining their supernatural strength, psi powers with modern weaponry would produce a fearsome soldier. The question is why has not Micheal secretly started arming his loyal followers ? He could have bought a lot of weaponry from Earth with his precious gems money.

Think about the implications of Yah-Yah ever finding out about something like that, because in doing so the only reasonable way to interpret it is that the angels are admiting that humans have managed to create more effective weapons than he has. That does not seem like something that would sit well with him.

Also so far the only angel combat we've seen has been with people in planes. We don't know just how effective "small arms" (in the sense of those big hoking .50 cal bullets) are against your average angel since none of them have flown low enough. Likewise we don't know how effective trumpets would be at being able to take a tank apart with them (it would probably be harder I think since they're traveling at about 1/10th the speed of an aircraft give or take and part of how they took down the planes was making something for them to crash into, right?) or are they effective enough that you can blow the horn and turn an entire wave of infantries bones to jelly, or will they just end up with a weird feeling before punching a bunch of holes in the angel with their bullets...

As you can see, there are a lot of unkowns when it comes to the effectivenes of human wepaonry on angels and vice versa, but my point above stands for why even if Micheal has the capacity to, he can't suggest or actively arm his angelic forces with human weponry, at least not until his cue comes....

[Bayonet]

quote="Bayonet"]The only people who would care are obviously enemy agents, and they must be liquidated. Anyone actually complaining would probably be arrested for sedition and suspicion of treason.

This is an existential exercise.

I hope that you're just vocalizing what the general public opinion would be?

Yes and no. It certainly would be the popular mood.

But if it were an existential war, then anything that stood in the way of survival must be stamped out. Protesters would be imprisoned and the press censored, much the way it was done during WW-II, a much less significant conflict than this one.

[Bayonet]

But a tape recording what Branch thought happened could potentially set off a scandal. I don't know if it would, but it might, and with the example of what happened to a lot of the low-ranking soldiers at Abu Ghraib in mind, I think most FBI agents would be wary of cooperating with something like that.

You're comparing a two-bit pocket war with a fight for the survival of humanity. Everybody has had friends and relatives killed by Heaven.

No tape would get out, because the Press would be prohibited from publishing it. Anything related to the military would be censored by this time. Anyone releasing such a tape would be charged with Treason. Any FBI agent objecting, would be transferred to parking meter investigations at Point Barrow.