Danish Conservatives Call for Burqa Ban

[Simon_Jester]

I hope it does get banned. Such primitive values are not compatible with what modern secular europe stands for. There has to be some limit on just how lenient religions and 'customs' get treated.

The burqas would not be a problem if individual Muslim women were honestly choosing to wear them. Someone wanting to go around muffled to the eyebrows is not the state's business, so the value incompatibility is not in the burqas themselves.

The reason they present a problem is that Muslim fundies, the women wear burqas in large part because of pressure from the men. That's the real value incompatibility here- that the women are forced into purdah by abusive men in their own families.

Either you attempt to ban headgears in public location or you don't. Trying to ban the Burqa in particular is an cultural attack.

If your problem is with women being forced to wear the Burqa, then simply teach girls in schools that they have a choice in what type of clothes they wear, and can report to authorities if anyone tries to abuse girls that don't listen to their husbands or parents.

Thing is, those same girls will go home and be taught the opposite: that they do have to listen to parents and husbands, that the schools are trying to poison their minds into betraying their people, and so forth.

Burqa bans and other acts like them are an occasional part of the European response to the perceived danger of Islamic fundamentalist immigrant groups, which they have to deal with in much greater numbers than Americans do. Also, the European model of civil liberties is noticeably different than the American model, so things that would be an unreasonable infringement in the American context might not be so in the European context. Since I still haven't figured out which system works better, I'm prepared to be a relativist for the time being.

[Dillon]

While I understand the concern of anonymity when it comes to women wearing the burqa or any person wearing any face covering in public, is there a record of them abusing this anonymity to commit crimes?

If not, then I would venture that the ban will only serve to pointlessly further divide Europeans and the Muslims living among them.

Not quite what you were talking about, but how about a case like this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6195581.stm

If they ask women to raise their veils for identification purposes like the articles says they do, then it doesn't seem like it would be an issue. I would sure hope border control would ensure proper identification for everyone.

[Jade Falcon]

If they ask women to raise their veils for identification purposes like the articles says they do, then it doesn't seem like it would be an issue. I would sure hope border control would ensure proper identification for everyone.

Wasn't there also an issue a couple of years back when one of the US DMV offices, Florida springs to mind, when an Islamic woman wanted to keep her niqab/burka on when having her photo taken for the licence and objected when being told she would have to show her face?

[Dillon]

If they ask women to raise their veils for identification purposes like the articles says they do, then it doesn't seem like it would be an issue. I would sure hope border control would ensure proper identification for everyone.

Wasn't there also an issue a couple of years back when one of the US DMV offices, Florida springs to mind, when an Islamic woman wanted to keep her niqab/burka on when having her photo taken for the licence and objected when being told she would have to show her face?

Obviously, being asked to lift the burqa face cover for identification purposes is necessary. But unless all other face coverings are already banned in general, specifically targeting the burqa will just serve to create more hatred, and there is already more than enough of that. It might be a symbol of oppression, but as others have said, it would hardly be reasonable to expect the oppression to end just because its symbol has been outlawed.

[Jade Falcon]

Obviously, being asked to lift the burqa face cover for identification purposes is necessary. But unless all other face coverings are already banned in general, specifically targeting the burqa will just serve to create more hatred, and there is already more than enough of that. It might be a symbol of oppression, but as others have said, it would hardly be reasonable to expect the oppression to end just because its symbol has been outlawed.

Well I don't know about the USA, but I've seen when applying for a Passport or driving licence or whatever, the photos usually specify things like 'no sunglasses, no hats, etc'. In other words nothing covering the face or portion of the face. If you even have prescription glasses and they are tinted too dark they can be rejected even if the tint is a medical one. If I remember rightly though this woman tried to claim a sort of exemption on religious grounds though.

[Questor]

If you even have prescription glasses and they are tinted too dark they can be rejected even if the tint is a medical one.

When I redid my passport last year, I had to take off my untinted prescription glasses. I think that is the standard for our Driver's Licenses as well, but am not sure. In the US there are even standards for how much of the space your face has to take up.

[Jade Falcon]

When I redid my passport last year, I had to take off my untinted prescription glasses. I think that is the standard for our Driver's Licenses as well, but am not sure. In the US there are even standards for how much of the space your face has to take up.

Perhaps different laws, or even dependent on the types of frames. I've been wearing thin metal frames for a long time, and when I have a tint its still fairly light.

[hongi]

[R-H] provided some examples, but the best reason to ban the burqa is because it's a completely body-concealing garment expected to be worn all the time outdoors, which opens up the possibility of being unable to verify identification and crimes being committed using the concealment it offers. It's not like this is limited to burqas, either - IIRC, at least a couple of states here in the US have anti-masking laws that were implemented to prevent groups like the KKK doing stuff under cloaks.

The answer is obvious, the face should be revealed when asked for like every other instance of face-covering headgear. If a shopowner wants a helmet to go, the helmet goes. Same for the burqa and niqab.

Wasn't there also an issue a couple of years back when one of the US DMV offices, Florida springs to mind, when an Islamic woman wanted to keep her niqab/burka on when having her photo taken for the licence and objected when being told she would have to show her face?

Sultana Freeman I believe. I also remember a thread here about some Christian group that didn't want photos taken at all, period. In these sorts of instances, it's clear that the law should win.

The reason they present a problem is that Muslim fundies, the women wear burqas in large part because of pressure from the men. That's the real value incompatibility here- that the women are forced into purdah by abusive men in their own families.

That may very well be true for a lot of women, but I know for a fact that some women wear them because they want to. You're unnecessarily disadvantaging the freedoms of those who want to look like large tents. There has to be a better way of dealing with Islamic oppression than to compromise freedom of expression.

[AniThyng]

Presumably in the long term it would be better to encourage a cultural shift to what most people in more moderate muslim countries wear, headscarves that cover the hair but not the face - even the women of the most hardline Islamic party in Malaysia and Indonese(IIRC) do not wear burka's.

[[R_H]]

How wide spread is wearing of the burqa in Denmark?

[Julhelm]

I hope it does get banned. Such primitive values are not compatible with what modern secular europe stands for. There has to be some limit on just how lenient religions and 'customs' get treated.

The burqas would not be a problem if individual Muslim women were honestly choosing to wear them. Someone wanting to go around muffled to the eyebrows is not the state's business, so the value incompatibility is not in the burqas themselves.

The reason they present a problem is that Muslim fundies, the women wear burqas in large part because of pressure from the men. That's the real value incompatibility here- that the women are forced into purdah by abusive men in their own families.

So just kick them the fuck back to whatever third world shithole they came from if they can't comply with and adapt to our customs and values. I have a hard time seeing how some middle eastern fundie can ever be productive if they are constantly at odds with our society.

[Simon_Jester]

So just kick them the fuck back to whatever third world shithole they came from if they can't comply with and adapt to our customs and values. I have a hard time seeing how some middle eastern fundie can ever be productive if they are constantly at odds with our society.

OK. Is that just an angry "how dare they defy our values?" grumble, or a serious policy proposal?

As a policy proposal, it has some problems. First of all, who is "them?" I assume we're talking about deporting men who try to force their wives or daughters to wear burqas. If so, the Danes must first identify the men who are the problem. Not all Muslim men are the problem, so deporting them all is a gross civil rights abuse. So they need some way of identifying the problem men. Should the Danes automatically deport the male head of household of any Muslim family containing a woman who wears a burqa in public? Should they try to monitor all Muslim households closely in search of abusive men? Should they rely on Muslim women to denounce abusive Muslim men, knowing that most of them will not do so for a variety of reasons?

To make things worse, of the abusive Muslim men, quite a few of them were probably born in Denmark. They can't be deported to a third world shithole they never came from in the first place.

How do you propose to make this idea work in a way that is more agreeable than banning burqas? Remember that if we have a right to deport people for not acting according to our values, we had damned well better follow our own values while doing so, or the whole exercise becomes gross hypocrisy.

I don't think wearing a ridiculous tent should be outlawed in a civilized country because the local majority's "cultural values" oppose the wearing of tents. Outlaw them because they're a tool by which some people in the country try to abuse and control others, fine. But not because you don't like them or think they're primitive; that's a stupid reason to outlaw an article of clothing.

[ray245]

I hope it does get banned. Such primitive values are not compatible with what modern secular europe stands for. There has to be some limit on just how lenient religions and 'customs' get treated.

The burqas would not be a problem if individual Muslim women were honestly choosing to wear them. Someone wanting to go around muffled to the eyebrows is not the state's business, so the value incompatibility is not in the burqas themselves.

The reason they present a problem is that Muslim fundies, the women wear burqas in large part because of pressure from the men. That's the real value incompatibility here- that the women are forced into purdah by abusive men in their own families.

So just kick them the fuck back to whatever third world shithole they came from if they can't comply with and adapt to our customs and values. I have a hard time seeing how some middle eastern fundie can ever be productive if they are constantly at odds with our society.

Using an argument that we need to ban something because of our cultural values is a stupid idea. This essentially means the idea of wearing a burqa is a justifiable action in the middle east, because that is the cultural value down there.

[hongi]

So just kick them the fuck back to whatever third world shithole they came from if they can't comply with and adapt to our customs and values. I have a hard time seeing how some middle eastern fundie can ever be productive if they are constantly at odds with our society.

We're talking about Danish citizens here, you stupid prick. What, you want to revoke their citizenship?

[Julhelm]

Who says we're talking about danish CITIZENS, you fuckface? It's not like they become citizens as soon as they set foot in the Denmark, assuming Denmark isn't a lot more lax than Sweden which I know for a fact it isn't, so they could concievably just be removed prior to getting their citizenship if they don't try to adapt. If we're talking about muslims born in Denmark, then obviously the fault is society's for not having been able to properly instill secular values through the public education system. Not much one can do about those, unfortunately. But there is definitely a possibility of preventing the problem at the door so to speak by not being so damned accepting of religious customs.

[Bluewolf]

Aww look who is getting angry. Hmmn I wonder what the article say's:

The immigration spokesman for Denmark's Conservative Party is calling for a ban on the wearing of burqas in public.

That is not just immagrints. Such a ban would apply to all people who would be wearing them INCLUDING Danish citizens as you have mentioned. On top of that those who are already Danish citizens will freely have children who will be potentially be raised to wear a burqa too. Therefore the door is already opened and the Muslim's in Denmark would have their foot in the said door due to already being there.

Your solution is pathetic. Men putting peer pressure on women to do something (Gosh, never has happened before has it)? Just kick them out and not deal with the problem that may be forcing some women to wear one culturally. We should never help tackle the inside issue at hand. Maybe them they may not be at "odds" with society and would intergrate better.

Also I love your slightly sickening generalisations. Of course all countries were people were burqa's are shitholes and all are fundies. Careful not to allow any shade of grey there.

[[R_H]]

Also I love your slightly sickening generalisations. Of course all countries were people were burqa's are shitholes and all are fundies. Careful not to allow any shade of grey there.

Well, let's see, Afghanistan and Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province are marvelously progressive and wonderful places to live, especially for women. For crying out loud, even in Saudi Arabia, the women (only) wear niqabs. And we all know what a wonderful place Saudi Arabia is.

[TimothyC]

And what if they make a concious choice to wear it as a personal preference and their fathers/husbands don't force them to wear it?

Other than the fact that the Muslim populations in Europe tend to take a salami approach (for example in certain parts of the UK they started by making it so that Muslim police women 'could' where a headscarf while on duty. Then it became all policewomen when they entered a mosque. Now they are pushing for policewomen to have to wear them in Muslim neighborhoods. The next step would obviously be to make policewomen wear a headscarf anytime that a Muslim might see them. And if Policewomen, then all women. I support the politicians in Denmark that are pushing this.

Personal story (yes anecdotes are not data): My Ex is a muslim living in Michigan. She wore a headscarf (all the time - I literally never saw her without some head covering), when I asked her about it, she responded that it was her culture, and even if she wanted to get rid of it, her family wouldn't approve.

[Teebs]

Other than the fact that the Muslim populations in Europe tend to take a salami approach (for example in certain parts of the UK they started by making it so that Muslim police women 'could' where a headscarf while on duty. Then it became all policewomen when they entered a mosque. Now they are pushing for policewomen to have to wear them in Muslim neighborhoods. The next step would obviously be to make policewomen wear a headscarf anytime that a Muslim might see them. And if Policewomen, then all women. I support the politicians in Denmark that are pushing this.

Source for the bolded bit? I haven't heard of any such thing.

[AniThyng]

Personal story (yes anecdotes are not data): My Ex is a muslim living in Michigan. She wore a headscarf (all the time - I literally never saw her without some head covering), when I asked her about it, she responded that it was her culture, and even if she wanted to get rid of it, her family wouldn't approve.

Of course, I also know (practicing) muslims living in an explicitly muslim country who do not wear headscarves except when entering a mosque or otherwise attending an explicitly religious function (say, a muslim wedding), and even those who do regularly wear headscarves wear western shirts and jeans to go with it. No doubt there are some who do so out of family or societal pressure, but big deal - I know people who wear short pants and blouses not so much because of the heat but because of pressure to look sexy or cool or whatever.

[TimothyC]

Other than the fact that the Muslim populations in Europe tend to take a salami approach (for example in certain parts of the UK they started by making it so that Muslim police women 'could' where a headscarf while on duty. Then it became all policewomen when they entered a mosque. Now they are pushing for policewomen to have to wear them in Muslim neighborhoods. The next step would obviously be to make policewomen wear a headscarf anytime that a Muslim might see them. And if Policewomen, then all women. I support the politicians in Denmark that are pushing this.

Source for the bolded bit? I haven't heard of any such thing.

Al Arabiya.

Of course, I also know (practicing) muslims living in an explicitly muslim country who do not wear headscarves except when entering a mosque or otherwise attending an explicitly religious function (say, a muslim wedding), and even those who do regularly wear headscarves wear western shirts and jeans to go with it. No doubt there are some who do so out of family or societal pressure, but big deal - I know people who wear short pants and blouses not so much because of the heat but because of pressure to look sexy or cool or whatever.

Oh, I know that. She also would wear some of the tightest jeans and sweaters I have ever seen. But I wanted to show Ray that even in western countries the family and societal pressures to wear headscarves can be significant.

[ray245]

Oh, I know that. She also would wear some of the tightest jeans and sweaters I have ever seen. But I wanted to show Ray that even in western countries the family and societal pressures to wear headscarves can be significant.

How does that differ from people's family trying to pressure girls from wearing more revealing clothes and all that? I mean if a person wants to be a nudist and stop wearing clothes in public (if it is legal), it is likely that their families would still apply social pressure to prevent them from doing it.

Using your line of logic, clothes should be banned, thus creating an environment where no one can pressure people into wearing clothes.

[hongi]

Who says we're talking about danish CITIZENS, you fuckface? It's not like they become citizens as soon as they set foot in the Denmark, assuming Denmark isn't a lot more lax than Sweden which I know for a fact it isn't, so they could concievably just be removed prior to getting their citizenship if they don't try to adapt.

"We don't want to see burqas in Denmark. We simply can't accept that some of our citizens walk around with their faces covered," Naser Khader, a Danish member of parliament of Syrian-Palestinian extraction who was recently appointed spokesman for integration issues for the Conservative Party, told the newspaper Jyllands-Posten.

Maybe you should try reading the article sometime.

Your solution is pathetic. Men putting peer pressure on women to do something (Gosh, never has happened before has it)? Just kick them out and not deal with the problem that may be forcing some women to wear one culturally. We should never help tackle the inside issue at hand. Maybe them they may not be at "odds" with society and would intergrate better.

Exactamundo. Kicking the burqa wearing women out will do nothing to improve their situation.

[Julhelm]

Exactamundo. Kicking the burqa wearing women out will do nothing to improve their situation.

It does improve the situation for citizens down the line because if the constant influx of new burqa-wearing fundies is stemmed by kicking out those who refuse to adapt before they are made citizens, much more effort can be directed through the public education system on instilling proper values into those who grow up as citizens since they will have a much smaller community of fundies to excert negative pressure on them.

I don't really give a fuck if that means some families get kicked out because they can't leave incompatible customs behind. Maybe they should consider going to another country then where such customs are accepted.

[Melchior]

How does that differ from people's family trying to pressure girls from wearing more revealing clothes and all that? I mean if a person wants to be a nudist and stop wearing clothes in public (if it is legal), it is likely that their families would still apply social pressure to prevent them from doing it.

I suppose that there is some cultural dissonance going on, but you should be aware that the "protective father that criticizes his daughter skimpy clothes" is basically a comedic figure at least in most of Western Europe. The phenomenon probably doesn't exist in Denmark outside of more extreme than usual religious groups.
Personally I do not think that the banning is a good idea, because it does nothing about the root problem; an aggressive program of investigating and punishing (with jail terms and loss of parental rights, not deportation) domestic abuse, since it is arguably involved when woman who would not otherwise want to wear that thing do it.