Lockerbie Bomber Released...

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Master of Ossus »

Dark Hellion wrote:So... internet tough guy bullshit it is. People have celebrated terrorism and murder all the fucking time. Look at the killing of Dr. Tiller and the religious right.
That doesn't mean that a government should encourage it.
Let's look at the bigger picture, the guy is fucking dying. He is already damn near dead. He isn't allowed to "roam society". He's going to die in pain in a bed in the middle of a fucking desert. That sure is a great reward.
It's much better than he should have received, given his conviction. If they hadn't released him, he wouldn't be a hero and the victims' families wouldn't be universally upset. Address the actual point.

Moreover, the fact that he's "almost dead" does not irrevocably lead to "he should be let go." Complete the argument--why should we allow dying prisoners to skip out on their sentences? What if the guy was discovered to be dying mere months or years following his sentence? What if someone committed crimes once they discovered they were terminally ill? What if he had a chronic and painful but non-terminal illness? Would "compassion" mandate he be released, then? "Big picture," such an individual would "die in pain," just not anytime soon.

Frankly, I'm having trouble determining why it's compassionate to feel bad for the killer at the direct expense of the victims. Why doesn't compassion run in all directions?
Especially considering he may not be guilty, as has been shown previously in the thread. Being a big man is so damn important when you look at these facts isn't it?
A system of justice that stands by the decisions of its judges and juries is important, and Scotland obviously doesn't have that.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10895
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Vendetta »

Master of Ossus wrote: Moreover, the fact that he's "almost dead" does not irrevocably lead to "he should be let go." Complete the argument--why should we allow dying prisoners to skip out on their sentences? What if the guy was discovered to be dying mere months or years following his sentence? What if someone committed crimes once they discovered they were terminally ill? What if he had a chronic and painful but non-terminal illness? Would "compassion" mandate he be released, then? "Big picture," such an individual would "die in pain," just not anytime soon.
Compassionate release in Scottish (and English) law is only granted to people whose death is imminent. Each case is reviewed by the justice minister.
Frankly, I'm having trouble determining why it's compassionate to feel bad for the killer at the direct expense of the victims. Why doesn't compassion run in all directions?
What "expense" is there to the victims?

What principle of justice will be served by keeping Megrani in prison for two more weeks. Not rehabilitation, because rehabilitation is irrelevant to a man who has two weeks to live, and not separation from society, as even were he guilty in the first place, which is questionable, he's not likely to blow up another airliner in the two weeks he has left to live.

So, do you want the justice system to exist for revenge, rather than justice, as that's the only thing you have left?
User avatar
Stofsk
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12925
Joined: 2003-11-10 12:36am

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Stofsk »

Vendetta wrote:What principle of justice will be served by keeping Megrani in prison for two more weeks. Not rehabilitation, because rehabilitation is irrelevant to a man who has two weeks to live, and not separation from society, as even were he guilty in the first place, which is questionable, he's not likely to blow up another airliner in the two weeks he has left to live.
General deterrence and punishment (the two being linked to each other). These are factors that are made in sentencing. In some cases, they're not issues at all.
So, do you want the justice system to exist for revenge, rather than justice, as that's the only thing you have left?
Even vengeance has a place in justice systems, the difference is impartial third party arbiters are the ones who determine what level of justice the victims receive, because otherwise victims wouldn't have any recourse but to exact revenge themselves, and that leads to vigilantism.

But if the guy's conviction was unsafe and unsatisfactory, wouldn't he have appealed? Did he appeal, and if so what was the results of that appeal? I don't have much faith in juries so I don't really care if 12 morons found him guilty; I only care whether there was compelling evidence that showed guilt was clear and if the trial was fair and conducted in accordance with the law. If both those elements were missing, I wonder if an appellate decision could have overturned the conviction.

EDIT: Ok so apparently he did appeal, and the first appeal was thrown out. The second appeal was in the works thanks to a review decision, but it's a shame that appeal was dropped. One wonders what we're not being told in this case.
Image
User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10895
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Vendetta »

Stofsk wrote: EDIT: Ok so apparently he did appeal, and the first appeal was thrown out. The second appeal was in the works thanks to a review decision, but it's a shame that appeal was dropped. One wonders what we're not being told in this case.
Dropping the appeal may have been part of a deal to secure the compassionate release.
Stofsk wrote:General deterrence and punishment (the two being linked to each other).
"Deterrance" in international terrorism may not work intuitively. Showing compassion for a dying Libyan man would probably do more to deter Libyan terrorists from attacking Scotland than keeping a dying man in prison for two weeks.
Teebs
Jedi Master
Posts: 1090
Joined: 2006-11-18 10:55am
Location: Europe

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Teebs »

Master of Ossus wrote:It's much better than he should have received, given his conviction. If they hadn't released him, he wouldn't be a hero and the victims' families wouldn't be universally upset.
Can't remember whether it was the Independent or the Guardian, but they said that many families of British victims (and quoted one particular family) were not upset about his release but were angry about the dropping of the appeal because they thought he was innocent and there had been a cover up. I think it's only on the other side of the Atlantic that you can say people are universally upset.
Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3317
Joined: 2004-10-15 08:57pm
Location: Regina Nihilists' Guild Party Headquarters

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba »

Master of Ossus wrote: This is an absurd strawman. First, I never claimed that the "only" point of prisons was to give the majority of people in the nation represented by the State satisfaction--the majority never even enters into it--I merely recognize that victims gain benefits from knowing that the perpetrators of crimes against them were prosecuted and punished by the state for their actions. Moreover, prisons can play lots of roles at once--deterrence, punishment, rehabilitation, and to alleviate victims' anguish at crimes perpetrated against them. None of these goals are furthered by allowing Megrahi to go free, and indeed all of them are at least arguably compromised by this decision. Finally, just because I recognize that victims should be comforted by the justice system doesn't mean that we should allow people to commit crimes against criminals--this is so absurd I don't even understand where you're getting it from.
Deterrence? Yeah, now all the terrorists will think 'Gee, I can blow up as many things as I like, I'll just have to get a terminal illness and I'll be able to blow that popsicle stand!'

Rehabilitation? What the fuck does that even mean? What the fuck does that mean for someone with two weeks to live who wouldn't even end up living in Britain if he were released? Besides, it's not like he'll be better acclimated to life on the outside with 2 more weeks in a cell versus two weeks with his family.

Punishment? Yeah, those two weeks are critical! The whole process is compromised by shorting him two weeks!

As for the whole victims' anguish bit... Seriously. Turns out there's a reason why judges and juries are supposed to be selected from people who aren't personally biased for against the accused?

As for 'none of these things are furthered', 'arguably' (a word that means, hey, I can backpeddal on this whenever I want, fortunately I said arguably or I'd actually have to defend this statement!) both deterrence and rehabilitation are furthered by showing him a quantum of mercy, to the world at large at least, and this is all a red herring since the point of the release is that - besides the fact that there's no good reason to hold him up in a cell and spend taxpayer money to keep an eye on him while he dies agonizingly - there are values and ethics outside of just trying to punish the sinful.
User avatar
Jade Falcon
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1705
Joined: 2004-07-27 06:22pm
Location: Jade Falcon HQ, Ayr, Scotland, UK
Contact:

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Jade Falcon »

Oh jesus tapdancing christ on a pogo stick....

http://www.boycottscotland.com/
Don't Move you're surrounded by Armed Bastards - Gene Hunt's attempt at Diplomacy

I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own - Number 6

The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.
Psychic_Sandwich
Padawan Learner
Posts: 416
Joined: 2007-03-12 12:19pm

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Psychic_Sandwich »

It takes a special kind of hypocrisy to take that stance when living in a country that's perfectly happy to let thousands of people who payed towards bombing a Remembrance service, among other attacks, walk around without even a slap on the wrist.

Glass houses and throwing stones, and all that.
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Master of Ossus »

Vendetta wrote:What principle of justice will be served by keeping Megrani in prison for two more weeks. Not rehabilitation, because rehabilitation is irrelevant to a man who has two weeks to live, and not separation from society, as even were he guilty in the first place, which is questionable, he's not likely to blow up another airliner in the two weeks he has left to live.

So, do you want the justice system to exist for revenge, rather than justice, as that's the only thing you have left?
Your list of reasons for inflicting social punishment on people is in no way complete. What about educating other people that society disapproves of criminal behavior? Allowing murderers to be released to cheering crowds tends to defeat that purpose. Restoring the victims fully is obviously impossible, also, but you're kidding yourself if you think that this doesn't hurt their feelings at all. Deterrence? Again, clearly it's useful to keep him in prison to deter others. Denunciation? That's also out the window due to this decision. Moreover, rehabilitation isn't "irrelevant to a man who has two weeks to live." Why do they have to review files if that's the case? And retribution is a reasonable objective of a justice system.

If a serial rapist/pedophile who had assaulted numerous victims in a series of carefully planned, deliberate attacks were to castrate himself the day after he were convicted would you let him go? After all, he can't rape anyone, again, so he's fully rehabilitated. Do you think that "deterrence" is injured by letting the guy go? Moreover, by your reasoning no further deterrence value can be achieved: what sort of person is going to go "Hmmm... if I just castrate myself afterwards, I get to rape whomever I please!"? But do you really think that an ideal system of justice would decide that he should be immediately freed?
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Master of Ossus »

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:Deterrence? Yeah, now all the terrorists will think 'Gee, I can blow up as many things as I like, I'll just have to get a terminal illness and I'll be able to blow that popsicle stand!'
Deterrence is convincing other people not to commit crimes in general; it's much broader than your parody. All else equal, a system of "justice" that frees violent criminals whose premeditated actions led to the deaths of hundreds of people before their lives are over will not deter as effectively as one that doesn't.
Rehabilitation? What the fuck does that even mean? What the fuck does that mean for someone with two weeks to live who wouldn't even end up living in Britain if he were released? Besides, it's not like he'll be better acclimated to life on the outside with 2 more weeks in a cell versus two weeks with his family.
So he can't be rehabilitated, therefore let him go?
Punishment? Yeah, those two weeks are critical! The whole process is compromised by shorting him two weeks!
I agree--he hasn't served out his sentence. Or do you think that we should just chop everyone's sentence by two weeks since obviously a week here or there isn't going to change the severity of their punishments substantively? The whole point is that the court that was closest to the case and reviewed the facts determined that life in prison was the most appropriate sentence for someone who had committed those crimes, and releasing him before that is pointless.
As for the whole victims' anguish bit... Seriously. Turns out there's a reason why judges and juries are supposed to be selected from people who aren't personally biased for against the accused?
Explain. Judges and juries are often permitted to hear statements from victims and their families about the impacts of a criminal's crimes on their lives specifically for the purpose of sentencing because that's considered a reasonable criteria for them to consider while determining a sentence. The man who decided to release Megrahi wasn't privy to such statements, and made no effort to contact or discuss the matter with the families before letting Megrahi go.
As for 'none of these things are furthered', 'arguably' (a word that means, hey, I can backpeddal on this whenever I want, fortunately I said arguably or I'd actually have to defend this statement!) both deterrence and rehabilitation are furthered by showing him a quantum of mercy, to the world at large at least,
Explain. How are people deterred from committing crimes because of "mercy" being shown to the world? How is he further rehabilitated, particularly given that at least one other person arguing on your side doesn't seem to think that rehabilitation of Megrahi is even possible.
and this is all a red herring since the point of the release is that - besides the fact that there's no good reason to hold him up in a cell and spend taxpayer money to keep an eye on him while he dies agonizingly - there are values and ethics outside of just trying to punish the sinful.
True, but when we have values that conflict with the justice system surely it's reasonable to consider the degree to which Megrahi violated the law and injured society, and few people (if anyone) have done ay worse in their lives.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Count Chocula
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1821
Joined: 2008-08-19 01:34pm
Location: You've asked me for my sacrifice, and I am winter born

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Count Chocula »

Well hell, if a convicted mass murderer can get off "Scot" free because he's dying from cancer, why not Bernie Madoff?
The Scotsman wrote:Wall Street fraudster Bernard Madoff 'dying of cancer'




« Previous « PreviousNext » Next »View GalleryPublished Date: 24 August 2009
CROOKED financier Bernard Madoff is dying of cancer, it was reported today.
The convicted fraudster told inmates at his North Carolina prison that he does not have long to live, according to the New York Post.

Madoff is serving a 150-year prison sentence for masterminding a massive "Ponzi" pyramid scheme that swindled investors out of billions of dollars.

In June, the 71-year-old was ordered to spend the rest of his life behind bars after admitting 11 charges of fraud, perjury and false reporting relating to the 65 billion dollar (£40 billion) scam.

It resulted in him having to exchange his upmarket Manhattan apartment for a cell in a federal prison.

The New York Post quoted a fellow inmate as stating Madoff is on 20 pills a day while battling the illness.

"He talks about it all the time. He's not doing very well," the unnamed source told the newspaper.

Rumours have previously circulated concerning Madoff's health, with suggestions that he has been fighting pancreatic cancer over the last few months.

Madoff's lawyer Daniel Horowitz did not immediately respond to phone calls regarding the state of his client's health.
The US Bureau of Prisons, BTW, disputes rumors that Madoff is dying of cancer.

So why, not, let's do a poll: if Bernard Madoff is dying of cancer, should he be given a "compassionate release" a couple months before his estimated kick-the-bucket day? After all, it's not like he murdered anyone.
Image
The only people who were safe were the legion; after one of their AT-ATs got painted dayglo pink with scarlet go faster stripes, they identified the perpetrators and exacted revenge. - Eleventh Century Remnant

Lord Monckton is my heeerrooo

"Yeah, well, fuck them. I never said I liked the Moros." - Shroom Man 777
User avatar
Stofsk
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12925
Joined: 2003-11-10 12:36am

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Stofsk »

Vendetta wrote:
Stofsk wrote:EDIT: Ok so apparently he did appeal, and the first appeal was thrown out. The second appeal was in the works thanks to a review decision, but it's a shame that appeal was dropped. One wonders what we're not being told in this case.
Dropping the appeal may have been part of a deal to secure the compassionate release.
The problem there is that the Justice Minister who released him for the compassionate release didn't repudiate the previous court findings, meaning they still stand. I'd feel a lot better about this decision if someone had overturned the conviction and sentence, if indeed there was something about his case that deserved that, as well as release him, because at the moment what's happened is a convicted mass murderer has been released because he's dying. Except that never or rarely happens to 'normal' prisoners, which makes me wonder there's more going on here.
Image
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by NecronLord »

I think the Scottish government has made a stupid mistake here.

The sad thing is, at least according to the UN observer, the trial was 'a spectacular miscarriage of justice' in the first place. Given that, they could have just brought his appeal forward; a fair trial would have a substantial chance of getting him out. Certainly over here, a large number of the families are (according to reports) more wrothful at him getting out because that meant the appeal was dropped which means the actually guilty parties will never be arrested. As opposed to putting his appeal back for years to debate whether it should be held in Holland instead.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Simon_Jester »

Count Chocula wrote:The US Bureau of Prisons, BTW, disputes rumors that Madoff is dying of cancer.

So why, not, let's do a poll: if Bernard Madoff is dying of cancer, should he be given a "compassionate release" a couple months before his estimated kick-the-bucket day? After all, it's not like he murdered anyone.
Why not? I mean, yes, block him from getting back into the trading market, but I don't really give a damn whether he spends the last two weeks before dying of groin cancer or whatever in a prison or not. His situation sucks far beyond my meager power to add or detract, so who cares?
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Vendetta wrote:
What "expense" is there to the victims?
None to those who died because they are dead. However, it does imply that the life and quality of life of this killer is worth more than the numerous lives he ended through intention planning and action.
What principle of justice will be served by keeping Megrani in prison for two more weeks. Not rehabilitation, because rehabilitation is irrelevant to a man who has two weeks to live, and not separation from society, as even were he guilty in the first place, which is questionable, he's not likely to blow up another airliner in the two weeks he has left to live.
Justice itself. This man ended 270 lives. The very least those victims and their families deserve is the full payment of this man sentence.
So, do you want the justice system to exist for revenge, rather than justice, as that's the only thing you have left?
Justice comes in many forms. Unfortunately, the justice found in the crime of murder is usually to help the victims family find closure. You should think about the concept of being the victim of a murder or the family member of a victim and then think about that concept and ask yourself would you want society to be compassionate to a person who participated in an act that killed hundreds including your family member all for some wild political agenda that they probably had nothing to do with.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by NecronLord »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Justice itself. This man ended 270 lives.
According to a trial called a 'travesty of justice' by a senior United Nations observer. Furthermore, his appeal has been delayed two years because of tedious juristictional issues - there is a very good chance he'd be out and aquitted by now if they didn't take two years deciding when and where to hold a second appeal.
The very least those victims and their families deserve is the full payment of this man sentence.
A sentance which, under Scottish law, like every other custodial sentance under Scottish law, is subject to compassionate 'release' - while this is somewhat rediculous (he's required to check in with the local council every month via video-confrence to prove he's not 'absconding') it is not a pardon in any way.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

NecronLord wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Justice itself. This man ended 270 lives.
According to a trial called a 'travesty of justice' by a senior United Nations observer. Furthermore, his appeal has been delayed two years because of tedious juristictional issues - there is a very good chance he'd be out and aquitted by now if they didn't take two years deciding when and where to hold a second appeal.
The very least those victims and their families deserve is the full payment of this man sentence.
A sentance which, under Scottish law, like every other custodial sentance under Scottish law, is subject to compassionate 'release' - while this is somewhat rediculous (he's required to check in with the local council every month via video-confrence to prove he's not 'absconding') it is not a pardon in any way.


Since we don't have access to that information we can't really debate whether this trial was actually a "travesty of justice", and it's not my intention to do so. I should have posted a disclaimer. My post is directed against the idea of compassionate release, and this persons conviction is being used as the example since that's where the debate began.
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by mr friendly guy »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Count Chocula wrote:The US Bureau of Prisons, BTW, disputes rumors that Madoff is dying of cancer.

So why, not, let's do a poll: if Bernard Madoff is dying of cancer, should he be given a "compassionate release" a couple months before his estimated kick-the-bucket day? After all, it's not like he murdered anyone.
Why not? I mean, yes, block him from getting back into the trading market, but I don't really give a damn whether he spends the last two weeks before dying of groin cancer or whatever in a prison or not. His situation sucks far beyond my meager power to add or detract, so who cares?
If you don't feel there is much difference between keeping him in prison or at home, then why are you advocating his early release?

Considering the purpose of compassionate release is to imrpove their situation, and if you think his situation is so bad to be beyond your power to detract from it, why advocate his release then?
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Dark Hellion
Permanent n00b
Posts: 3558
Joined: 2002-08-25 07:56pm

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Dark Hellion »

Fulfillment of sentencing has nothing to do with Justice. Justice is reserving ones just deserts. Someone who actually murders 270 people deserves a slow death filled with suffering. Like cancer... oh, wait. Sorry, I just sunk the justice angle for the don't releasers. Next time I should be careful before I actually think, people could look foolishly vindictive.

People throw justice around with such casual carelessness. Justice in its purest form is an unstoppable meting out of equity of consequence to action. Humans are such poor creatures as rationality and possess such limited senses for the epistemological that all justice we seek to perform is really just caricature. So we met out vengeance and hatred and call it justice. It is a good thing we have compassion and kindness to balance it out.

We don't get anything after this, we only get to be judged by what we do, and showing basic human compassion for a dying man, no matter how vile, is a far more worthy action that some penis sizing sadism of punishing him for a few more months.

As for the families of those killed, they will hurt. They will hurt with every airplane they see, every time they see a terrorist attack on TV, even when the man dies they will still hurt. The pain of losing a loved one doesn't go away. It will fade in time, though. When it does, don't you think they will feel better knowing that they showed themselves to be better humans than the people who killed their loved ones? If you want a moral victory this is it for them. They have proven themselves to have some spark of humanity that those who hurt them do not have, and this is far more empowering than some petty show of physical strength to encage a dying man.
A teenage girl is just a teenage boy who can get laid.
-GTO

We're not just doing this for money; we're doing this for a shitload of money!
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by NecronLord »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Since we don't have access to that information we can't really debate whether this trial was actually a "travesty of justice", and it's not my intention to do so. I should have posted a disclaimer. My post is directed against the idea of compassionate release, and this persons conviction is being used as the example since that's where the debate began.
There is a substantial amount of documentation available, and while I doubt anyone here has the time to read it all, we do have access to Dr Köchler's rather damning statements on the trial. As a UN observer, we can hopefully accept his neutrality.

International Progress Organisation Report on the Lockerbie Trial and Appeal – this is one of a number of statements he’s made, of course, and many other items of documentation are available on that website, but this one specifically highlights the intimidating long roll of serious problems with the trial and appeal. Some are less critical (for example, "The circumstances of detention of the two accused at Her Majesty's Prison Zeist were in conformity with national legal requirements and international legal and human rights standards.")

It's extremely interesting reading (and impressively brief). In it, he pretty much tears the entire case to shreds.

The reason I keep bringing up Dr Köchler's comments on the trial is as follows: The function of UN/International Observers in matters like this is in order to verify and attest to the neutrality of proceedings, and that justice is being served by the trial. In a case where these observers claim that the trial was conducted improperly, particularly in as damning a way as this, the witness to the proper conduct of the trial has essentially declared that it was improperly run. In this respect, I think the convicted Al-Megrahi is entitled to more than an appeal: an appeal has a presumption of guilt. He deserves a re-trial where he would be innocent until proven guilty, because the original trail was conducted in a grossly improper and unfair manner.

While Dr Köchler is only human, and of course, fallible, his appointment as a UN/IPO observer gave him the task of reporting on the trial; and his report and later statements are unequivocally negative in almost all respects about the way the trial was run. Instead, his comments in his capacity reporting for the United Nations have essentially been ignored.

Returning to your argument, I'd accept that in general, compassionate release is an unjust lenience – indeed, as Mike (IIRC) has pointed out here on occasion, Mercy (or in this case, compassion) and Justice are not only not the same thing, they are antithetical: Mercy is inherently unjust, as it requires an undeserved leniency from pity or similar reasons. When one talks about compassion in such matters, one is abandoning the path of Justice, and such things should require exceptional reasons.

I would however, take issue with your emphasis on the victims’ feelings – I know that if any of my immediate relatives had died I would be satisfied with little less than the electric chair (I am, I must admit, rather vindictive) for those I thought responsible: in pursuit of closure for victims, one is essentially playing to a crowd. While it is a legitimate argument against lenient sentences for criminals, I wouldn’t rate it as a particularly important part of the sentancing process - otherwise, do those criminals whose victims are dead and have no one to mourn for them, get let off? That is of course, an exxaggerated example, but in caving to the pressure of the wronged, one sacrifices 'equal treatment under the law.'

In the specific case of Al-Megrahi, though, given the sheer corruption of his trial (as an example, his lawyers were appointed by the Lybian government, without any consultation of himself, or another, refusal of said lawyers to employ certain evidence in his defence) makes me consider it invalid – therefore, Justice is not served by his conviction and imprisonment, and I find myself having no problem with his being freed – obviously, this is going to distress people who believed he did it, but as the trial was conducted in a corrupt manner, I would say his actual conviction is invalid.

Of course, it’s a dubious and back-door release (and rather too late to be of any use to the man) but I’d not say it’s actually immoral in this instance.

As a general policy, I’m not impressed with 'compassionate release' but in this case, I'd say given the wrongful imprisonment already endured, it's not morally wrong.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
Intio
Youngling
Posts: 114
Joined: 2009-04-18 03:47pm
Location: Fife, Scotland

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Intio »

Master of Ossus wrote:to remove the determination of punishment from judges and juries that are closest to the facts of the case and that are appointed to make that determination) involves a balancing of the severity of the crime
Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the facts in this case before firing your mouth off. The body charged with deciding release on compassionate grounds runs concurrent to the judicial decision - it is not supposed to be looking at the evidence of the case in the same way that judges and juries do. It is a wholly separate process which purposefully does not echo or review the evidence and cases put forward during the trial. I'm not asking anyone to like this, but that is the way it works.

Perhaps the fact that the US has no equivalent to compassionate release (that I am currently aware of) is the reason so many Americans keep making this mistake. I read about this conflation between two very different things all the time.
The man who decided to release Megrahi wasn't privy to such statements, and made no effort to contact or discuss the matter with the families before letting Megrahi go.
Firstly, he didn't need to be privy to those statements. That was not his job. In fact he would not have been doing his job properly if he had done as you would have liked. You are again confusing Megrahi's guilt or non-guilt with the grounds for assessing compassionate release.

I mean it's in the damn definition - it wouldn't be "compassionate" if the judicial side of a case was cut n' dry innocence. I suspect the reason you are doing this is due to the difference in our systems, you are trying to view this decision through the prism of your system in which the decision would never have to take place.

Secondly, given your apparent lack of knowledge on the workings of this system - how are you so confidently aware what the Justice Secretary was privy to?

As for the wishes of the families - this also is not within his remit, though I appreciate it seems like a move which might have been welcomed. However, since everyone is equal in the eyes of the law, the severity of this case should not confer any special status to the families involved: so any time non-Americans are involved in a crime committed in the U.S. their families will of course be contacted and canvassed for their feelings... right?
A system of justice that stands by the decisions of its judges and juries is important, and Scotland obviously doesn't have that.
Right, on the basis of this case you can determine that about an entire judicial system... which you haven't been bothered to gather even the most cursory facts on. Grow up.
Nonetheless, he is getting to enjoy the reverence of large crowds of people because he murdered hundreds--something he wouldn't have been able to do had Scotland simply continued to enforce his sentence.
(and)
Scotland's actions allowed others to celebrate murder and an act of terrorism.
(and)
If they hadn't released him, he wouldn't be a hero and the victims' families wouldn't be universally upset
So. Fucking. What? Are you really going to make a case that a nation with an international persecution complex, celebrating one of their population being freed, has any bearing on this?
Stofsk wrote:The problem there is that the Justice Minister who released him for the compassionate release didn't repudiate the previous court findings, meaning they still stand.
As above, that is not a "problem" since he was not supposed to be doing that. Compassionate release is not a means of, or dependent upon, repudiating the previous trial. You may of course think that it should be contingent on various aspects of the trial, but it isn't. At least not in the way many people from around the world seem to think that it is.
Except that never or rarely happens to 'normal' prisoners, which makes me wonder there's more going on here.
Or rather you have never heard of it happening to 'normal' prisoners... because it may not have an equivalent in your own country? Let me know.
NecronLord wrote:Given that, they could have just brought his appeal forward; a fair trial would have a substantial chance of getting him out.
This seems to be taking an overview position. They did not decided to 'get him out', and then find a means. The decision for compassionate release was based upon it's own criteria, not any aspect of an appeal, previous trial, or bringing forward a future trial.
Kamakazie Sith wrote:ask yourself would you want society to be compassionate to a person who participated in an act that killed hundreds including your family member
Because that person's lack of compassion should be the baseline for our treatment of them? Yes, I do want a society to be capable of showing compassion to someone who is incapable of it - because that is what spearates us from them.
Last edited by Intio on 2009-08-25 09:28am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by NecronLord »

Dark Hellion wrote:Fulfillment of sentencing has nothing to do with Justice. Justice is reserving ones just deserts. Someone who actually murders 270 people deserves a slow death filled with suffering. Like cancer... oh, wait. Sorry, I just sunk the justice angle for the don't releasers. Next time I should be careful before I actually think, people could look foolishly vindictive.

People throw justice around with such casual carelessness. Justice in its purest form is an unstoppable meting out of equity of consequence to action. Humans are such poor creatures as rationality and possess such limited senses for the epistemological that all justice we seek to perform is really just caricature. So we met out vengeance and hatred and call it justice. It is a good thing we have compassion and kindness to balance it out.
So? Of course our justice will be imperfect; nothing is 100% efficient. It is a principle, informed by a number of social objectives (revenge, deterrance, etc etc) that is to be striven for, not something anyone claims to have perfected.
don't you think they will feel better knowing that they showed themselves to be better humans than the people who killed their loved ones?
No.

That's the problem with subjective emotional arguments like that - they're purely based on what you think should happen. I can only really speak with any certainty about those who're on record, and how I myself would feel. I wouldn't give a toss how sick they were - because I'm a spiteful kind of person (no, this isn't internet tough guy, I'm not advocating this, I'm talking about my reactions). Which is a strong argument for me (and others) never being allowed a say in the sentance of anyone who's wronged me.

Your perception of being a good human gives precedence to mercy - in a matter like this I'd give precedence to loyalty to kith. I would not be 'the bigger man,' and I imagine there are many like me.

Never mind that this is all irrelevant, the families didn't let him go. The government did. Given its policy of compassionate release, it evidently thinks like you do.

And remember, I think it was morally right to release him. Nonetheless, your argument is entirely subjective and emotional - you may support a policy of acts of mercy (as in this case) to the convicted. I would not support such a policy. This is based on subjective principles, and not something I expect to change your mind on.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by NecronLord »

Intio wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Given that, they could have just brought his appeal forward; a fair trial would have a substantial chance of getting him out.
This seems to be taking an overview position. They did not decided to 'get him out', and then find a means. The decision for compassionate release was based upon it's own criteria, not any aspect of an appeal, previous trial, or bringing forward a future trial.
You are mistaken. A routine "compassionate release" in Scotland would be what's called a "release on licence" and would require him to make regular reports to parole officers (technically, he still does, via video confrence, which is the proverbial chocolate teapot) He was granted specific exceptional conditions here (leaving the UK) that demonstrate that this matters was exceptional, even by these standards. The decision here was certainly influenced by the convict's notoriety and importance.

Given that, I see no reason to think high level (if not wise) consideration of the whole case and its political implications was taken, which would allow the alternative option I proposed. Given the UK/Scotland complicity in the initial trial's corruption, of course, an overturning (which would suggest a further investigation) of its results is far too much to hope for in the real world.
Because that person's lack of compassion should be the baseline for our treatment of them? Yes, I do want a society to be capable of showing compassion to someone who is incapable of it - because that is what spearates us from them.
Again, I disagree. The fact that we do not willfully kill innocent people (well; in the kind of society that I would support; the actual iniqities of Western Governments are well known here and I take them as read) is what 'seperates us from them.'
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Big Orange
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7108
Joined: 2006-04-22 05:15pm
Location: Britain

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by Big Orange »

It would've been better for the suspected bomber to be put in a more comfortable, semi-open cell and arrange for his family to meet him there in his final weeks/months. It would've prevented a trans-Atlantic shitstrom (redirecting attention from the UHC reforms) and we'd be spared from the childish Libya/US granstanding.
'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...' - Dr. Evil

'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid

'I think it's gone a little bit wrong.' - The Doctor
[R_H]
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2894
Joined: 2007-08-24 08:51am
Location: Europe

Re: Lockerbie Bomber Released...

Post by [R_H] »

Big Orange wrote:It would've been better for the suspected bomber to be put in a more comfortable, semi-open cell and arrange for his family to meet him there in his final weeks/months. It would've prevented a trans-Atlantic shitstrom (redirecting attention from the UHC reforms) and we'd be spared from the childish Libya/US granstanding.
Childish behaviour seems to be unavoidable when dealing with Libya/the Gaddafis.
Post Reply