China's organ transplants come mostly from death row

[Darth Wong]

Is this a surprise?
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/08/ ... nt026.html

China's transplant organs mostly from death row
Last Updated: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 | 7:40 AM ET
The Associated Press

The majority of transplanted organs in China come from executed prisoners, state media reported Wednesday in Beijing.

The China Daily said more than 65 per cent of organ donations come from death row, citing unnamed "experts." China puts to death more people than any other country.

However, human rights groups estimate at least 90 per cent of transplanted organs come from executed prisoners.

The country's Health Ministry and the Red Cross Society of China this week launched a national organ donation system to reduce the reliance on death row inmates and encourage donations from the public, the China Daily newspaper reported.

Condemned prisoners are "definitely not a proper source for organ transplants," the report quoted deputy health minister Huang Jiefu as saying.

He has publicly acknowledged that most transplant organs are taken from executed prisoners but only with prior consent.

Foreign medical and human rights groups have long criticized China's organ transplant trade as being opaque, profit-driven and unethical. Critics say death row prisoners might feel compelled to become donors.

Voluntary donations in China remain far below demand, partly because of cultural bias against organ removal before burial. About 1.5 million people in China need transplants, but only around 10,000 operations are performed annually, Chinese health officials say.

[fgalkin]

Deriving some benefit for society from condemned death row inmates is bad....how?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Ryan Thunder]

Because the RED COMMIE CHINESE are doing it, obviously.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Deriving some benefit for society from condemned death row inmates is bad....how?

Because it gives a ruthless government like China yet more reason to kill people. If they need more organs what makes you think that they won't just grab politically suspicious people and dismantle them? What makes you think they aren't already doing that?

[Darth Tanner]

Seems like an excellent use of resources to me.

Critics say death row prisoners might feel compelled to become donors.

Do the 'critics' say how? Or why that is a bad thing?

[General Zod]

Deriving some benefit for society from condemned death row inmates is bad....how?

Because it gives a ruthless government like China yet more reason to kill people. If they need more organs what makes you think that they won't just grab politically suspicious people and dismantle them? What makes you think they aren't already doing that?

Make sure to add some teflon to that tinfoil hat you're wearing. It'll block radio waves better. It's possible there might be some abuse going on, but without any kind of inside view this is just conspiracy theory territory you're blabbering about.

[Darth Wong]

Can anyone seriously be naive enough to think that China's death penalties are meted out justly?

http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/apro/apr ... dpan_china

[Lord of the Abyss]

Deriving some benefit for society from condemned death row inmates is bad....how?

Because it gives a ruthless government like China yet more reason to kill people. If they need more organs what makes you think that they won't just grab politically suspicious people and dismantle them? What makes you think they aren't already doing that?

Make sure to add some teflon to that tinfoil hat you're wearing. It'll block radio waves better. It's possible there might be some abuse going on, but without any kind of inside view this is just conspiracy theory territory you're blabbering about.

Assuming that a ruthless tyranny is going to behave in a ruthless fashion is "tinfoil hat" now? Since when has China been known for it's attachment to mercy, justice and human rights?

The surprising thing would be if they DIDN'T kill innocent people for their organs.

[fgalkin]

Irrelevant. That's a failure of the Justice System, the fact that most organs come from executed people has no bearing on that. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of using condemned prisoners as organ donors. The true issue here are people being executed unjustly, not what happens to their bodies afterwards.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Lord of the Abyss]

Irrelevant. That's a failure of the Justice System, the fact that most organs come from executed people has no bearing on that. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of using condemned prisoners as organ donors. The true issue here are people being executed unjustly, not what happens to their bodies afterwards.

It's not irrelevant that using their organs creates an extra motive to kill them.

[Samuel]

What, no Jigsaw Man comments? Aren't those who are executed mostly young men and the CCP is made up disproportionately of old men?

[Simon_Jester]

This isn't hard; if the state has a financial incentive to execute people and if the state has a lousy excuse for legal due process, then we can expect to see more executions. This is not tinfoil hat territory, this is baseline cynicism territory.

If there is good due process, then there will probably not be a problem, because the cost and difficulty of grabbing a random person off the street and framing them for a capital crime, or of pushing for execution of someone who normally wouldn't be executed, are high. It's not easy to do that in a good judiciary. But in a crappy judiciary, it's easy enough that a financial reward can make it a lot more likely to happen.

And yeah, this reminds me of Niven's Jigsaw Man, but you beat me to the punch.

[General Zod]

Assuming that a ruthless tyranny is going to behave in a ruthless fashion is "tinfoil hat" now? Since when has China been known for it's attachment to mercy, justice and human rights?

The surprising thing would be if they DIDN'T kill innocent people for their organs.

Innocent people != politically suspicious. Why would they go after political rivals when it's much easier to simply trump the charges for poor people who nobody would pay any serious attention to?

[fgalkin]

Irrelevant. That's a failure of the Justice System, the fact that most organs come from executed people has no bearing on that. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of using condemned prisoners as organ donors. The true issue here are people being executed unjustly, not what happens to their bodies afterwards.

It's not irrelevant that using their organs creates an extra motive to kill them.

Do you have any proof of this allegation that people are being executed for their organs or are you just theorizing? I would, for example, like to see a rundown of the age breakdown of the people being given death sentences versus people given lighter sentences for similar crimes.

By the way, the cases quoted in that Amnesty article are hardly worse than, say Texas. The real issue here is corruption and lack of transparency in the justice system, not organ harvesting.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Darth Tanner]

if the state has a financial incentive to execute people and if the state has a lousy excuse for legal due process

Its arguably cheaper to execute people than keep them in prison for a lifetime, so that argument works for every country on the planet.

Apparently Texas executes nearly triple the number of people per capita than China.

linky

I'd say that China obviously lacks by western standards in terms of a fair legal system but the USA is hardly in a place to criticize. Canada and the rest of the developed world are however free to criticise the execution nations.

EDIT:messed up tag

[Lord of the Abyss]

Irrelevant. That's a failure of the Justice System, the fact that most organs come from executed people has no bearing on that. There's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of using condemned prisoners as organ donors. The true issue here are people being executed unjustly, not what happens to their bodies afterwards.

It's not irrelevant that using their organs creates an extra motive to kill them.

Do you have any proof of this allegation that people are being executed for their organs or are you just theorizing?

Did I say I had proof? No, I didn't, nor am I likely to get any since the Chinese government is hardly going to let a third party closely investigate what it's doing. I'm simply pointing out an obvious likely consequence.

The real issue here is corruption and lack of transparency in the justice system, not organ harvesting.

No, the issue is organ harvesting; it's right in the thread title.

[General Zod]

Its arguably cheaper to execute people than keep them in prison for a lifetime, so that argument works for every country on the planet.

False.

[fgalkin]

It's not irrelevant that using their organs creates an extra motive to kill them.

Do you have any proof of this allegation that people are being executed for their organs or are you just theorizing?

Did I say I had proof? No, I didn't, nor am I likely to get any since the Chinese government is hardly going to let a third party closely investigate what it's doing. I'm simply pointing out an obvious likely consequence.

"Obvious" to your conspiracy-addled mind, maybe. "It's a coverup!" has been used by fine people like yourself as an excuse not to look for evidence for decades. "They're EVIL!" is not sufficient proof for that.

The real issue here is corruption and lack of transparency in the justice system, not organ harvesting.

No, the issue is organ harvesting; it's right in the thread title.

I am at a loss for words here. I think you are definitely living up to your title.

If you so insist, please prove what's wrong with taking organs from death row inmates.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Its arguably cheaper to execute people than keep them in prison for a lifetime, so that argument works for every country on the planet.

False.

Due to the high cost of trials. Cheaper trials with less paid lawyers solve that issue quite handily.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[General Zod]

Its arguably cheaper to execute people than keep them in prison for a lifetime, so that argument works for every country on the planet.

False.

Due to the high cost of trials. Cheaper trials with less paid lawyers solve that issue quite handily.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

The standards of evidence should also be significantly higher (at least in any civilized country), which translates into costlier testing.

[fgalkin]

False.

Due to the high cost of trials. Cheaper trials with less paid lawyers solve that issue quite handily.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

The standards of evidence should also be significantly higher (at least in any civilized country), which translates into costlier testing.

As opposed to the standards of, say, life without parole?

In any case, your source does not say a word about higher standards of evidence (whatever that means, "proven beyond a reasonable doubt" is high enough as it is), only about the cost of trials. And NOTHING about the actual cost of incarceration for life.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Lord of the Abyss]

"Obvious" to your conspiracy-addled mind, maybe. "It's a coverup!" has been used by fine people like yourself as an excuse not to look for evidence for decades. "They're EVIL!" is not sufficient proof for that.

Don't be silly. I'm simply assuming that people with a history of murderous ruthlessness will behave in a murderous and ruthless fashion. What's going to stop them? Why wouldn't they do what I suggest?

If you so insist, please prove what's wrong with taking organs from death row inmates.

I already said what's wrong, repeatedly. It creates a motivation to kill, among people who have neither moral scruples or practical restraints to keep them from killing.

[Plekhanov]

How is it 'tin foil hat' stuff to suspect that in a country as repressive as China, with so little even vaguely resembling checks and balances or due process and consequently with governmental structures as prone to corruption as China that getting something as valuable as donor organs from executed 'criminals' could create an incentive for corrupt officials to convict and execute people?

[fgalkin]

"Obvious" to your conspiracy-addled mind, maybe. "It's a coverup!" has been used by fine people like yourself as an excuse not to look for evidence for decades. "They're EVIL!" is not sufficient proof for that.

Don't be silly. I'm simply assuming that people with a history of murderous ruthlessness will behave in a murderous and ruthless fashion. What's going to stop them? Why wouldn't they do what I suggest?

So, your proof is "they're evil. Organ harvesting is evil. So, they will do it!"

Let's paraphrase:

I'm simply assuming that people (the Bush Administration) with a history of murderous ruthlessness (the Iraq war) will behave in a murderous and ruthless fashion. What's going to stop them from destroying the WTC? Why wouldn't they do what I suggest?

You've just proven that 9/11 was a government conspiracy! Amazing!

China has been notorious for its suppression of people who oppose the CCPs rule, and for the corruption on the lower levels of government. How does that translate into "cartoonishly evil?".

Why wouldn't they do what I suggest?

The damage to their reputation (something they rather obvioiusly care about) if news of such a policy ever gets out?

I already said what's wrong, repeatedly. It creates a motivation to kill, among people who have neither moral scruples or practical restraints to keep them from killing.

I'd say the lack of moral scruples and practical restraints is a problem, but that's just me.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Plekhanov]

Do bear in mind China is a country where even top ranking national officials take bribes to allow 'medicines' and foods stuffed full of lethal toxins into the market. Given that what's so far fetched about the notion of local law enforcement officials taking kickbacks from those who deal in human organs?