The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[PainRack]

It didn't help matters that the case was hitting his home life. He was having to be away more and more often, for longer and longer periods. It wasn't that his mate was complaining, the duties of a female mate in Heaven were clearly defined. Serving her mate was one of them, nagging him was not. But there were ways a female could convey her displeasure and recently Lemuel-Lan had been on the receiving end of them all. The message had been quite clear, his absences from his home were not appreciated and she was even implying that there might be more behind them than his work. There were those masters of a household who might have chastised their mates for such insinuations but Lemuel-Lan was not one of them. Instead he just resented the implications and let them seethe in the back of his mind.

This....... was sheer genius. Excellent character development, backstory as well as showing the history and culture of the Angels.

Suction, Lee-Ann, normal blood is bad enough, this silver stuff is a real nuisance. Another major wound cavity, the bullet looks as if it combined explosive and incendiary fillings. Both lungs are damaged and leaking blood, we'll have to over-fold to correct that. Metal fragments, at least a dozen of them."

This..... is interesting. This suggest that Heaven do have access to modern technology, including electricity and mechanical devices. This would presumably also involve power generators, fuels and other supporting infrastructure. If nothing else, we know they have the infrastructure to make fine sewing needles.

As a sidenote, is this stuff really silver? If so, they would need to use larger, more powerful suctioning to suck it up.

[Jim Starluck]

This might not be a popular thing to say, but the issues the conquest of hell has caused with abortion may be more due to general squick, than reason.

Consider this: Most of the fetuses that end up in hell will have brains that are too poorly developed to host a consciousness. Indeed, that's the main criteria for allowing abortions in the first place, and many of them essentially don't have a brain, period.

Apart from convincing me that the system is just singling out humans arbitrarily, this also implies that, since they don't seem to grow in hell, killing them isn't really more of a bad thing than eating animals, rationally speaking. Letting them live probably classes as animal cruelty, though.


EDIT:
What would be more troublesome is if some of them could, given time actually achieve some level of intelligence despite the lack of hardware. I.. wouldn't want to have to consider that scenario, but.. what happens if you freeze them? Would their regeneration allow them to survive cryogenic freezing without harm? In that case, we'd have all the time we need to figure it out.

I wouldn't be surprised if, after we take Heaven, we learn more about the exact mechanism that transfers human souls to Hell. Perhaps we could put some kind of filter on it, to prevent those who are too underdeveloped from being trapped in that state for eternity?

...now there's a moral quandry for you. Would just take the whole abortion debate to a new level...

[PainRack]

Wow, angels are IMMENSE. That a bullet can penetrate 20 centimeters into a shoulder and THEN hit bone is rather staggering.

Nice bit with Doctor Gunn, btw.

? I read that as the bullet wound was 20cm deep, and it had shattered bone on the way in.

[Jamesfirecat]

Lemuel-Lan took the bottle and placed it in his robes. For the last ten nights, every time he had turned to his mate, she had refused him, claiming she had a headache. Now, if nothing else, he finally had a solution to that particular problem.

Yeah good luck with that Lemuel, you're gonna need it, though it'll be kind of cute to see him try like watching what happens when a dog actually catches up with a car its chasing....

[Rahvin]

This might not be a popular thing to say, but the issues the conquest of hell has caused with abortion may be more due to general squick, than reason.

Consider this: Most of the fetuses that end up in hell will have brains that are too poorly developed to host a consciousness. Indeed, that's the main criteria for allowing abortions in the first place, and many of them essentially don't have a brain, period.

Apart from convincing me that the system is just singling out humans arbitrarily, this also implies that, since they don't seem to grow in hell, killing them isn't really more of a bad thing than eating animals, rationally speaking. Letting them live probably classes as animal cruelty, though.


EDIT:
What would be more troublesome is if some of them could, given time actually achieve some level of intelligence despite the lack of hardware. I.. wouldn't want to have to consider that scenario, but.. what happens if you freeze them? Would their regeneration allow them to survive cryogenic freezing without harm? In that case, we'd have all the time we need to figure it out.

I wouldn't be surprised if, after we take Heaven, we learn more about the exact mechanism that transfers human souls to Hell. Perhaps we could put some kind of filter on it, to prevent those who are too underdeveloped from being trapped in that state for eternity?

...now there's a moral quandry for you. Would just take the whole abortion debate to a new level...

Didn't Stuart say back in the previous book thast those who died young slowly aged to about middle age and then stopped, while those who died old were "reborn with middle-aged bodies?

That implies that fetuses, given sufficient time, would eventually grow into middle-aged adults. Their entire conscious existence would be as Hell-bodies, but given that they don't need food or water or air or anything but time in Hell, they should be just fine regardless of how much it squicks us.

The more unfortunate effect will be their emotional response when they grow up enough to learn that they were aborted, and possibly resent their mother's choice. Of course, miscarriages, infant deaths, stillborns, and others are still in basically the same boat as well, just without the mommy-rejection issues.

[tim31]

This..... is interesting. This suggest that Heaven do have access to modern technology, including electricity and mechanical devices. This would presumably also involve power generators, fuels and other supporting infrastructure. If nothing else, we know they have the infrastructure to make fine sewing needles.

Unless it's being bought on trips to Earth. That's Michael's usual MO. He's probably got a generator in his palace to support his private medical facilities. This is possibly how he hopes to bring Uriel on side; by having his life saved with human technologies.

[Jamesfirecat]

This..... is interesting. This suggest that Heaven do have access to modern technology, including electricity and mechanical devices. This would presumably also involve power generators, fuels and other supporting infrastructure. If nothing else, we know they have the infrastructure to make fine sewing needles.

Technically for all we know Micheal just picked the stuff up on Earth and brought it back to Heaven for his own personal uses much like with the drugs, espeically since he'd probably be aware in advance of the possibility of getting hurt in a war with humans else he wouldn't have bothered to rescue the human doctors in the first place, the doctors then probably got him a "wish list" of equipment he wanted and then he got it for them by talking to the right people with the right mental entaglement activated on earth....

In short until we see the factories we've got no reason to believe that Heaven is turnning out stuff to match us, its only been stockpilling some of our tech and only one angel in particular is doing it...

EDIT: tim31 Just beat me to the punch but I'm letting this stand anyway just to show there's more than one person thinking about that idea...

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The comment about how "you never know who you're really working for" makes me think of those Soviet efforts in the Cold War to recruit Nazi-symp Germans in West Germany by having the agents they were using convince them that they were part of ODESSA, which I found to be utterly hilarious and perfectly worthy of the best moments of the KGB.

[Baughn]

I wouldn't be surprised if, after we take Heaven, we learn more about the exact mechanism that transfers human souls to Hell. Perhaps we could put some kind of filter on it, to prevent those who are too underdeveloped from being trapped in that state for eternity?

...now there's a moral quandry for you. Would just take the whole abortion debate to a new level...

An interesting idea, but logically no different from killing them once they arrive. Someone would point that out, which would probably kill it.

I'd be careful about using that word, though - "souls". What we've been shown so far is mostly that there is nothing supernatural, and if you claim that infants have "souls", the obvious conclusion for many people is that this means they have subjective experiences/qualia/whatnot, while from my POV all it means is that there is some sort of tag (genetic?) that makes the system clone them into hell at death.

Which is to say, there's no reason to assume that anything at all has changed, other than having to kill them twice. (Yeah, that'll happen..)

Didn't Stuart say back in the previous book thast those who died young slowly aged to about middle age and then stopped, while those who died old were "reborn with middle-aged bodies?

That implies that fetuses, given sufficient time, would eventually grow into middle-aged adults. Their entire conscious existence would be as Hell-bodies, but given that they don't need food or water or air or anything but time in Hell, they should be just fine regardless of how much it squicks us.

The more unfortunate effect will be their emotional response when they grow up enough to learn that they were aborted, and possibly resent their mother's choice. Of course, miscarriages, infant deaths, stillborns, and others are still in basically the same boat as well, just without the mommy-rejection issues.

Does DNA testing work on hell-clones?

Without that, it might be impossible to distinguish aborted fetuses from stillborn ones, which means they can quite reasonably assume they would've been accepted; there's just no way to know, and the odds are in their favor. I think.

Actually.. I can't seem to find verification right now, but I recall reading some time back that quite a lot of fetuses (some huge number, possibly one-third) have a single-egg twin at an early stage in their development, which is later reabsorbed. This may happen too early to matter, but if it doesn't.. oh. Oh dear.

[Pelranius]

So the fetuses, if that 'disappearing twin' business is true, could outnumber the 'dead'?

As for trusting the demon we put in the cart and the other pantheons, there's the possibility that she/he could feed information to said pantheon that they would find useful later (like military procedures and equipment).

There ought to be a name for the Liberation of Hell holiday. What about a remembrance day about the Message, to remind people about betrayal and such? I imagine that a lot of holidays are going to get junked.

[Baughn]

Not quite outnumber, no.

Assuming the one-third number is correct, you'd have one chance in four of being a "disappearing fetus", and slightly below three fourths of dying later, so they'd only account for about a fourth of the people in hell.

However, so far they've all been eaten. Right now, they'd account for about a fourth of the influx.

[PainRack]

Unless it's being bought on trips to Earth. That's Michael's usual MO. He's probably got a generator in his palace to support his private medical facilities. This is possibly how he hopes to bring Uriel on side; by having his life saved with human technologies.

Technically for all we know Micheal just picked the stuff up on Earth and brought it back to Heaven for his own personal uses much like with the drugs, espeically since he'd probably be aware in advance of the possibility of getting hurt in a war with humans else he wouldn't have bothered to rescue the human doctors in the first place, the doctors then probably got him a "wish list" of equipment he wanted and then he got it for them by talking to the right people with the right mental entaglement activated on earth....

In short until we see the factories we've got no reason to believe that Heaven is turnning out stuff to match us, its only been stockpilling some of our tech and only one angel in particular is doing it...

EDIT: tim31 Just beat me to the punch but I'm letting this stand anyway just to show there's more than one person thinking about that idea...

To be honest, I didn't think about that. Still, there are some problems with that scenario.
OT supplies bought on earth don't really last long, especially when considering sterile conditions.
The real kicker is electricity though. Even a private generator must require some form of fuel to burn and fuels don't last forever.

If it was bought via purchases on Earth, we can see that Michael smuggling operation is much more vast and extensive than we glimpsed. If so, is there any portal monitoring? Are angels able to freely enter Earth without any oversight from Yahweh court?

[Pelranius]

To be honest, I didn't think about that. Still, there are some problems with that scenario.
OT supplies bought on earth don't really last long, especially when considering sterile conditions.
The real kicker is electricity though. Even a private generator must require some form of fuel to burn and fuels don't last forever.

If it was bought via purchases on Earth, we can see that Michael smuggling operation is much more vast and extensive than we glimpsed. If so, is there any portal monitoring? Are angels able to freely enter Earth without any oversight from Yahweh court?

Michael's smuggling operation doesn't need to be very extensive, even with generators and medical equipment. He could have just put it on his wish list to the junta and North Korea, who should be able to make the necessary arrangements.

[Darth Wong]

To be honest, I didn't think about that. Still, there are some problems with that scenario.

OT supplies bought on earth don't really last long, especially when considering sterile conditions.

So? They can just keep getting more. It's not as if they would use medical equipment and supplies often, considering their prodigious self-healing capabilities.

The real kicker is electricity though. Even a private generator must require some form of fuel to burn and fuels don't last forever.

Actually, a generator requires only something to turn the shaft. There are plenty of ways you could rig up something to turn a generator shaft even using medieval technology. Windmills, water-wheels, even people in giant hamster-wheels could all be used if necessary. Or, they could just keep getting more fuel from Earth for a gas-powered generator.

If it was bought via purchases on Earth, we can see that Michael smuggling operation is much more vast and extensive than we glimpsed. If so, is there any portal monitoring? Are angels able to freely enter Earth without any oversight from Yahweh court?

What are you talking about? Items like that are available everywhere, and are much smaller than multi-ton drug shipments, which we already know Michael is getting regularly.

[Jamesfirecat]

Actually.. I can't seem to find verification right now, but I recall reading some time back that quite a lot of fetuses (some huge number, possibly one-third) have a single-egg twin at an early stage in their development, which is later reabsorbed. This may happen too early to matter, but if it doesn't.. oh. Oh dear.

I wouldn't worry too much about that situation, it's already been established that fetus(es)(i?) don't build up enough energy to make the jump to hell until after four months in their mothers womb at the "quickening" stage of a pregnancy. So while I haven't seen the information that you ahve I somehow doubt that the "temporary twin" lasts that long...

[Pelranius]

Going onto the fetus issue, why did they (I'm assuming Yah yah or whoever) set it up so that the fetuses made it into the afterlife?

And if the fetuses could grow into mature adults, wouldn't have Satan at least try to keep some of them around so that he'd have more people to torture?

[Simon_Jester]

Suction, Lee-Ann, normal blood is bad enough, this silver stuff is a real nuisance. Another major wound cavity, the bullet looks as if it combined explosive and incendiary fillings. Both lungs are damaged and leaking blood, we'll have to over-fold to correct that. Metal fragments, at least a dozen of them."

This..... is interesting. This suggest that Heaven do have access to modern technology, including electricity and mechanical devices. This would presumably also involve power generators, fuels and other supporting infrastructure. If nothing else, we know they have the infrastructure to make fine sewing needles.

As a sidenote, is this stuff really silver? If so, they would need to use larger, more powerful suctioning to suck it up.

I don't think Michael's blood is actual molten silver. As I understand it, angels have silvery blood, which is more opaque and possibly more viscous than human blood, which makes it annoying from a surgeon's perspective.

I agree with Tim and James. Michael probably obtained all this tech for his own personal use. The electricity is probably coming from a wood-fired boiler in the basement of his palace or something.

[BR7]

To be without empathy means that you are a sociophath. Is a sociopath the only person who can make an objective judicial decision.

I'm gonna disagree with you here. Sociopaths may lack empathy, but the lack of empathy does not mean you are a sociopath.

Beat me to it. I'd just add that the DSM-IV also disagrees with the "no emotions = sociopathy" conclusion. Lack of emotions would match a schitzoid person more.

[Simon_Jester]

No emotions != no empathy.

A person can have intense raging emotions without having any noticeable ability to understand other human beings. It makes them very unpleasant to be around.

[BR7]

No emotions != no empathy.

True. Seems I misread Sean Mulligan's post to mean that he thought they were equal. But anyway, scratch the DSM-IV reference, and empathy still isn't needed for objectivity.

[Darth Fanboy]

Best chapter in the new book, way to go Stuart.

[Simon_Jester]

No, but it isn't nearly as mutually exclusive as Judge Candless implies.

Personally, I read references by sane people to the importance of empathy in judgement as follows: if you're going to be punishing people and evaluating the context of an action, you have to understand the significance of what's going on. Judges have to evaluate context in many cases. Without empathy, it is difficult for them to understand and evaluate factors like intimidation, duress, and criminal intent. They may fail to perceive these elements, or fool themselves into thinking they exist when they do not.

Therefore, empathy is a good quality in a judge. This is not because it should override their ability to make objective decisions, but because they need it to inform their objective decisions: one cannot be reliably objective about something one does not understand clearly.

[Pelranius]

Best chapter in the new book, way to go Stuart.

I personally thought the one with Uriel being shot down was the best, though I must disclose some bias.

[iborg]

I love the comment about Lemuel's mate's headaches

[Pelranius]

I love the comment about Lemuel's mate's headaches

Maybe she'll be the one killing him instead of Michael's agents or whoever?