Bad design in Star Wars

[FSTargetDrone]

Just checked to be sure... Ben and Luke reach for and fasten seat belts when they jump into the curved bench around the chess table in the Falcon when it leaves Docking Bay 94. C-3P0 is already belted in when they do this. When Luke and Ben run to the cockpit after the Falcon leaves the planet, Han tells them to "go strap yourselves in."

Conversely, there are no restraints visible in the Falcon's cockpit. Crazy, huh? Restraints in the aft passenger/cargo section, but not in the vital cockpit area. I have no doubt at all that cockpit seat restraints were part of the original ship design but Solo may have gotten rid of them or simply ignores them because he and Chewie just don't want to bother. Nor do Luke and Han fasten any restrains in the dorsal and ventral turret gun seats, seats that slam from side to side within the gunners' cabins. There aren't even any seen on the seats there.

[charlemagne]

R2 is a maintenance design, he's meant to interact with machines and computers only, how is it stupid to not have him able to talk? He's a freaking screwdriver. R2 is a huge exception with the Skywalker family feeling attached to him, this is even plainly stated multiple times.

About the seatbelts on the Falcon - the Falcon is not built as a passenger ship, it's a small transport vessel, why waste money and ressources on restraint systems other than plain seatbelts on areas where normally there's no people during flight? I can totally see Han having fancy tech to avoid him and Chewie being thrown around in the cockpit, but not caring much for the aft sections.

Or, maybe restraint tech that is in place in Luke's speeder is fine and well for civilian purposes but prone to failure in combat situations, like with fighters or snowspeeders. Or, maybe it's plain common sense to strap yourself into a craft like a snowspeeder because a seatbelt won't fail when power is cut and it's not a "system" that can be damaged by blaster hits to your craft. This would of course make Han careless in not strapping himself in in the cockpit. Anyways, I think we can trust that the people of the millenia old SW civilisation have come up with pretty safe methods for everyday stuff like interstellar flight.

[Stofsk]

R2 is a maintenance design, he's meant to interact with machines and computers only, how is it stupid to not have him able to talk? He's a freaking screwdriver.

No, he's not a goddamn screwdriver, he's a droid - infinitely more complex a piece of machinery. The fact is he has a voder, but it's not programmed with speaking Basic.

Perhaps it's not necessary, although I think it would be, but at the very least it would certainly be useful for an astromech to be able to communicate effectively verbally with a pilot in the middle of a dogfight or mechanic on damage control duty.

Anyways, I think we can trust that the people of the millenia old SW civilisation have come up with pretty safe methods for everyday stuff like interstellar flight.

What kind of logic is that?

[Darwin]

R2 is a maintenance design, he's meant to interact with machines and computers only, how is it stupid to not have him able to talk? He's a freaking screwdriver.

No, he's not a goddamn screwdriver, he's a droid - infinitely more complex a piece of machinery. The fact is he has a voder, but it's not programmed with speaking Basic.

R2's an appliance. Meant to do its job and otherwise not bother people with advanced discussions on philosophy. Why *should* it speak basic? The way astromech droids are used, they're dispatched to fix things they specifically can fix, and aren't expected to be heard from again until the job is done. R2-D2 is a notable exception from not having been memory wiped for an astoundingly long time. Anyway if you let him speak basic, you know he'd make a sailor blush. Best to just leave that alone.

come to think of it, that may be why all astromech droids aren't built to speak basic. Nobody wants to hear that.

[Stofsk]

R2's an appliance. Meant to do its job and otherwise not bother people with advanced discussions on philosophy. Why *should* it speak basic?

So speaking Basic means filling the air with pointless philosophising? I thought being an appliance it might be handy for R2 and other droids to be able to tell their human masters what is wrong with the whatever-device, rather than fill the air with unintelligible whistles and beeps.

[Darwin]

R2's an appliance. Meant to do its job and otherwise not bother people with advanced discussions on philosophy. Why *should* it speak basic?

So speaking Basic means filling the air with pointless philosophising? I thought being an appliance it might be handy for R2 and other droids to be able to tell their human masters what is wrong with the whatever-device, rather than fill the air with unintelligible whistles and beeps.

Generally the whatever-device (typically a starship component, considering the droid in question) will have already told its human master what is wrong, if it's something the astromech can't fix on its own, before the astromech is deployed. From what I've seen, especially the example on Amadala's yacht in Episode1, there's normally no direct interaction at all between astromechs and human personnel. The ship registers damage and appropriate droids are deployed to repair it. I have no reason to believe that this is not typical use of these droids.

[Noble713]

Lack of railings over bottomless holes

Where? I can only recall when Luke and Leia running into an open door where the walkway was drawn back - quite possibly intended to cut them off. Obi-Wan was mucking around with the tractor beam controls where he wasn't supposed to be, maintenance there might be done by flying droids, if required.

The Theed power core. The argument I've heard is that it's not an area meant for people so safety rails were unnecessary, but I'm not buying that. It's on the same level as the hangar bay, with an access door that can be opened just by mashing the buttons or possibly shorting the circuit (Maul's Force-Thrown object sends sparks flying..... in contrast Solo's attempt to hot-wire the Endor bunker made the doors CLOSE). There's also a computer terminal right by the ledge:

High-Res Image Link

Or how about the landing platforms on Coruscant? Oddly enough, they seem to feature rails at the curved corners, but not along the straight sides.

Coruscant Platform, High Res

Granted, that was a high-altitude VIP platform...probably a bit unusual. Let's look at a more heavily-trafficked, common-people area, like where Anakin and Padme board the freighter for Naboo:

High-Res Image Link

Nope, no handrails there either. The drop isn't "bottomless" but it is easily 100+ meters.

Now for my own list.

1) Mechs, any and all. Sure, they're cool and SW tech means you can throw around legs like nobody's business with advanced gyroscopic control and the weapons don't really need a more stable platform, but at the end of the day, legs are still bad. Except maybe on MT-AT walkers.

The argument that I've heard for mechs is that anti-grav vehicles can't pass through theater shields (we see this in TPM, the B-1s are sent in until the shields are down, THEN the AATs charge forward). The thing I don't understand is: why not just use wheeled vehicles if you need ground contact?

EDIT: Just noticed photobucket downsized my pics. Those were 1680x1050 screencaps. Lame.

[FSTargetDrone]

There aren't always railings in real-life situations where you think they would be necessary, either. Look at subway platforms. Look at surface rail train platforms. All that keeps people from the edge are signs and painted lines. People can (and have) fallen into the path of a moving train. Some rail crossings along roads have no physical barriers. In fact, it would be better if all rail crossings were above the intersecting road, but in the US, at least, that isn't the case.

[NecronLord]

Seriously, how goofy is this ship for hot-shot Jedi Anakin?

A very good one? It was free, and it doesn't look obvious. When he's being obvious, he has a variety of fighters.

[FSTargetDrone]

About the seatbelts on the Falcon - the Falcon is not built as a passenger ship, it's a small transport vessel, why waste money and ressources on restraint systems other than plain seatbelts on areas where normally there's no people during flight? I can totally see Han having fancy tech to avoid him and Chewie being thrown around in the cockpit, but not caring much for the aft sections.

Just noticed this... I think you misunderstand. I wasn't criticizing the apparent lack of physical restraints in the cockpit and gunner chairs in the Falcon. My point is that Solo doesn't use them in a situation that we might assume he would use them. That is, he tells his passengers to "strap yourselves in" but he doesn't follow his own advice. Why? Solo is constantly bouncing in and out of his seating, running back and forth in ANH and ESB to fix this or that.

There are plenty of people in real life situations who do not use safety equipment. Is it smart? Is it safe? No, but it is sometimes expedient. Solo probably doesn't have the patience to be constantly bucking and unbuckling his seat restraints. There may be lap belts in the chairs in the cockpit, but they aren't visible. My guess is that they once existed but that he removed them long ago. He's already modified the stock design of his ship in other areas. It's no surprise if he merely cut the belts out.

Anyway, artificial gravity is so prevalent throughout the Star Wars universe that it isn't even commented on. It's probably so common that it's notable when it isn't used. For example, Solo's ship clearly has artificial gravity throughout its crew and passenger spaces--in fact, at least 3 different orientations of AG relative to each other that are explicitly shown onscreen in the ship at the same time periods and in the same situation. Han and Luke sit back to back quite comfortably in their gunner chairs while Leia and Chewie are in the cockpit. Luke had evidently never even been aboard a spacecraft (aside from a brief time when he was an unaware infant) before boarding the Falcon and yet without the slightest hesitation, he negotiates the transition between the "regular" plane of gravity aboard the Falcon and the 90-degree turn as he enters the gunner's compartment. He may not have ever been such a vessel before in a situation like that, but he is clearly experienced enough with variable AG (or at least is aware of it), such that it isn't even remotely an issue for him.

[Havok]

Doesn't Solo use the restraints in the quad turret chair?

[Darwin]

The argument that I've heard for mechs is that anti-grav vehicles can't pass through theater shields (we see this in TPM, the B-1s are sent in until the shields are down, THEN the AATs charge forward). The thing I don't understand is: why not just use wheeled vehicles if you need ground contact?(

The idea is that nothing beats walkers for all-terrain capability. The nature of the Star Destroyer's missions require its Stormtrooper forces to be able to handle about anything, snow, urban, mountains, swamps.. of all available ground movement systems, walkers are able to handle the most varied terrain.

The Imperial Army is supposed to have more specialized equipment including more tanks and wheeled vehicles, but STs deployed from Stardestroyers don't appear to have that luxury.

[FSTargetDrone]

Doesn't Solo use the restraints in the quad turret chair?

Apparently not. He and Luke just plop down, put their headsets on, touch some switches on the sidewalls and then grab the gun controls. They do not fasten belts--in fact, there do not appear to be lap belts. There are clearly no shoulder belts. Notably, Solo spends a few seconds adjusting his headset, but he never reaches for a belt.

There may be AG in the seats themselves--for as much as the seats slide side-to-side, Luke and Han have no trouble staying firmly in place.

Now, for filming purposes, perhaps the actors were wearing out-of-view lap belts to keep from getting thrown from the chairs, but this is not clearly shown.

[Themightytom]

R2's an appliance. Meant to do its job and otherwise not bother people with advanced discussions on philosophy. Why *should* it speak basic? The way astromech droids are used, they're dispatched to fix things they specifically can fix, and aren't expected to be heard from again until the job is done. R2-D2 is a notable exception from not having been memory wiped for an astoundingly long time. Anyway if you let him speak basic, you know he'd make a sailor blush. Best to just leave that alone.

come to think of it, that may be why all astromech droids aren't built to speak basic. Nobody wants to hear that.

Right why would anyone want to have Artoo able to tell them "Hey your ship is broken because the hyperdrive motivator has been damaged" or "Listen, I am stolen property, i belong to a Ben Kenobi" or even "My sensors detect several hostile aliens with guns approaching"

Not even a fricking "Danger Will Robinson"??

[Themightytom]

Doesn't Solo use the restraints in the quad turret chair?

Apparently not. He and Luke just plop down, put their headsets on, touch some switches on the sidewalls and then grab the gun controls. They do not fasten belts--in fact, there do not appear to be lap belts. There are clearly no shoulder belts. Notably, Solo spends a few seconds adjusting his headset, but he never reaches for a belt.

There may be AG in the seats themselves--for as much as the seats slide side-to-side, Luke and Han have no trouble staying firmly in place.

Now, for filming purposes, perhaps the actors were wearing out-of-view lap belts to keep from getting thrown from the chairs, but this is not clearly shown.

Doesn't he have to do a wierd flip down because the turret is "Upside down" relative to the ships gravity? I remember someone on this forum pointing that out but never really saw it. Honestly i don't ahve as big a problem with the lack of restraints in space, because if they DON'T have inertial dempaeners, their still going to fast for restraints to save you. Seatbelts make more sense for a LAND vehicle not going above Mach 1 or a ship that rocks every time an energy weapon is fire at it like in Star trek

[FSTargetDrone]

It's interesting that loss of artificial gravity never seems to be an issue aboard any vessel seen in any of the 6 movies. The Falcon is in danger of losing its shields, but whatever the system is that provides AG, it is quite robust. Perhaps, in general, AG has a sort of residual effect, if power to the AG systems are lost for a short time.

Also, maybe the landing platforms seen on Coruscant have a safety field of some kind along their edges in case someone manages to fall over the side. Perhaps the railings mentioned above are merely decorative. Hell, constantly-working AG is vital to everyone aboard those platforms, so it doesn't seem to much of a stretch to imagine that there is a force field in place to catch falling people. Now, a ship exploded (surely an extraordinary event) on top one of them and some parts flew some distance over the edges of the platform (one of the N-1 fighters was knocked off by a large piece of debris--I no idea if there was anyone in the fighter) yet no one other than possibly someone in the N-1 appeared to be lost over the side. The platform in question evidently wasn't affected itself.

Incidentally, I just checked and Anakin is clearly wearing shoulder restraints in his podracer. Most of the alien racers do not seem to be wearing shoulder restraints, but it's hard to tell in all cases. And when Anakin first gets in the N-1, he isn't immediately wearing shoulder restraints as the ship takes off, but by the time he's in space and flying around the Trade Federation ships, he is clearly wearing a shoulder harness (as are all of the other Naboo pilots).

Doesn't he have to do a wierd flip down because the turret is "Upside down" relative to the ships gravity? I remember someone on this forum pointing that out but never really saw it. Honestly i don't ahve as big a problem with the lack of restraints in space, because if they DON'T have inertial dempaeners, their still going to fast for restraints to save you. Seatbelts make more sense for a LAND vehicle not going above Mach 1 or a ship that rocks every time an energy weapon is fire at it like in Star trek

No. Luke climbs "down" the ladder and as he is getting up from a crouch turns around at its base, stands up and then immediately gets in the chair from one side. It's a smooth transition. I'll try to find video.

Video (the sound is overdubbed with just music):



The dorsal and ventral turrets are oriented 180 degrees from each other (back to back--Luke and Han can look over their shoulders and see each other down the length of the gun access tube) and each is 90 degrees from the "regular" decks. Luke is looking down through the bottom of the ship and Han is looking up through the top.

No sign of restraints.

[Batman]

The Grand Rim Promenade on Cejansij as mentioned in SotP has emergency tractor beams to catch people going over the edge so it doesn't seem inconceivable that Coruscant would have similar systems (the Promenade, of course, also had guardrails ) Coruscant as the capital of the galaxy is both just as if not more likely to have such AND quite possibly arrogant/trusting of their technology enough to shun backup measures such as guardrails as 'unnecessary'.

[FSTargetDrone]

Damn edit window...as an aside, notice just how much Han and Luke make use of the display in front of each of them. The bulk of the guns themselves take up quite a bit of space, blocking much of the already limited field of view outside the viewports. The view is limited even more by the placement of the chairs which are set back a fair distance from the viewports.

They each glance up as the fighters come into their view, but they spend a lot of time using the display. Each of the grid squares seen in the display seems to represent a particular turret's field of fire. or at least the space around it and where the targets are in relative position to the ship. That is, the one square is the dorsal gun and the other square in parallel with it is the ventral gun and its field of fire. Perhaps each gunner can choose to see every target around the ship, even if he can't actually shoot at it. Or, maybe each gunner can filter out targets that do not fall within the field of fire of his particular gun turret.

The Grand Rim Promenade on Cejansij as mentioned in SotP has emergency tractor beams to catch people going over the edge so it doesn't seem inconceivable that Coruscant would have similar systems (the Promenade, of course, also had guardrails ) Coruscant as the capital of the galaxy is both just as if not more likely to have such AND quite possibly arrogant/trusting of their technology enough to shun backup measures such as guardrails as 'unnecessary'.

It seems like that AG/force field systems are so well-protected that if a ship or other passenger-carrying structure (landing platforms) was damaged enough to actually lose AG or a vital force field, the matter is moot as the very structure of ship itself is catastrophically damaged at that point.

[Darwin]

It seems like that AG/force field systems are so well-protected that if a ship or other passenger-carrying structure (landing platforms) was damaged enough to actually lose AG or a vital force field, the matter is moot as the very structure of ship itself is catastrophically damaged at that point.

Considering that the Invisible Hand had working AG even after being Ripped in Half, it's probably safe to say these systems are very robust.

[FSTargetDrone]

Considering that the Invisible Hand had working AG even after being Ripped in Half, it's probably safe to say these systems are very robust.

Indeed. They actually have it under some semblance of control for awhile (Anakin says to Obi-Wan, "Grab that, keep us level")! The fact that the people on the bridge (yes, they are even strapped in) are barely shaken in their seats in a ship that crash-landed from outside the planet speaks volumes about the restraining systems.

Also impressively, the Death Stars themselves continue to stay illuminated and their various systems remain functioning up until they are destroyed.

Specifically, in regard to the DSII, the lights inside the core remain on even as they are enveloped by the exploding reactor matter! As Luke escapes in the shuttle, there is clearly gravity in the shuttle bay (something falls from above and hits the hangar bay deck) and the forcefield protecting the bay itself from the vacuum seems to stay on (the glowing strip around the edges stays brightly on, at any rate) even as the explosions from within burst out through the bay opening. As Luke flies away, other lights remain on along the surface.

[Meest]

Apparently this guy is creative consultant on Stargate Universe, will be interesting to see how fast his realism or logical ideas get thrown out to cinematic license on that show. Guys we need invisible cotton so we can get our females in a semi naked situation, "I'm on it boss". Hit and miss on certain points by my problem is that in his responses in the thread he comes across as an ass with some superiority complex. He's on a show that has something to do with a ship or crew getting stranded really far potentially galaxies away, where are the backups or logical designs in that situation.

[Dooey Jo]

I think the point that was made is if these walking tin boxes can make hyperspace computations, why don't they have a voder that lets them communicate in Basic? Surely it can't be that much of drain on processor power?

I suppose it depends on what the astrodroids are actually for. In TPM we see a bunch of them going up and working in space, where audio communication would be useless. Their use on starfighters also puts them in space. If they are supposed to be used pretty much exclusively in space, and are not meant to interface directly with people much, a full speech system would be unnecessary. Instead those beeps and boops could be like a computer's start-up beep codes, and you'd have to consult the manual if you really wanted to know what they mean.

Right why would anyone want to have Artoo able to tell them "Hey your ship is broken because the hyperdrive motivator has been damaged" or "Listen, I am stolen property, i belong to a Ben Kenobi" or even "My sensors detect several hostile aliens with guns approaching"

Not even a fricking "Danger Will Robinson"??

Are those in any way typical uses for an astrodroid? You probably wouldn't even use it to figure out how something is broken; the ship's computer tells you that and then you just send the droid to fix it. Or it just sends the droid automatically, as apparently happened in TPM. I mean, if you have an electric screwdriver that has some thing that, when used improperly, can detect hostile aliens, but it can't tell you about it directly, is that a huge flaw?

[charlemagne]

Are those in any way typical uses for an astrodroid? You probably wouldn't even use it to figure out how something is broken; the ship's computer tells you that and then you just send the droid to fix it. Or it just sends the droid automatically, as apparently happened in TPM.

Did Luke's uncle or anyone else in ANH state why they needed an R2 unit on their farm? I really can't remember right now, but maybe that could give us a clue as to what uses R2s have* besides being astro-mechanics (and doing advanced calculations, R2 is constantly plotting hyperspace jumps).

Considering his beeping, Luke's X-Wing translated that directly onto a small screen, or rather, it got put out on one, we don't know if it got translated or if R2D2 sent the text directly.


*We know that R2D2 is used like the Skywalker's Swiss army knife, but is every R2 unit capable of "picking" locks and cracking enemy computers on a day-to-day basis?

[Isolder74]

Are those in any way typical uses for an astrodroid? You probably wouldn't even use it to figure out how something is broken; the ship's computer tells you that and then you just send the droid to fix it. Or it just sends the droid automatically, as apparently happened in TPM.

Did Luke's uncle or anyone else in ANH state why they needed an R2 unit on their farm? I really can't remember right now, but maybe that could give us a clue as to what uses R2s have* besides being astro-mechanics (and doing advanced calculations, R2 is constantly plotting hyperspace jumps).

Considering his beeping, Luke's X-Wing translated that directly onto a small screen, or rather, it got put out on one, we don't know if it got translated or if R2D2 sent the text directly.


*We know that R2D2 is used like the Skywalker's Swiss army knife, but is every R2 unit capable of "picking" locks and cracking enemy computers on a day-to-day basis?

They appeared to have wanted the R2 unit to be a mobile tool box that can fix farm equipment on it's own. This explains why Owen would reject initially buying R2-D2 in favor of an R5 unit that is less specialized for use on starships.

As a note, R2's Taser is actually his arc welder being used as a taser. His scanner likely is suppose to be used to scan damage parts to see what most likely can be fixed and what need outright replacement.

[Wing Commander MAD]

First off, Luke's speeders lack of visible physical restraints. We'll go with the assumption that there is not AG or inertial dampening field effects for the sake of argument. Could it be that some teenager, who considers himself somewhat of hotshot, thinks safety restraints are uncool? Maybe Ben, who's trying to win the over Luke at the time doesn't want to seem like some uncool old guy and doesn't buckle up either. Seriously, how many teens in the 50s, 60s, and 70s thought buckleing up was uncool (Hell, I still have a hard time getting my old man to put on seatbelts).

Isolder and Darwin hit the nail on the head, astromech droids like R2 seem to be for all intents and purposes mobile automated tool boxes that are meant to be almost if not completely ignored by people. With regards to R2's purpose on othe Lar's Homestead. I kinda got the idea that he (and any other droids) were supposed to wander around the property checking on the equipment on their own (the moisture vaporators seemed most prevalent) and fixing it if need be, and then when night came automatically return to that garage type place so they wouldn't be attacked by tuskens or stolen by jawas and for any general maintenance that needed done on them. I wander if part of the reason Owen even bought C3P0 other than for talking with the vaporators, was for some kind of droid foreman to oversee the other droids and report anything important to him? It would make sense if you had one droid that could speak basic to you and make reports. Besides how many droids did Owen even have before bying R2 and Threepio? I only recall seeing the one with all the arms. Wasn't there some mention somewhere that Luke used to do most of the maintenanc and that since he was expecting Luke to leave soon (he was going to eventually have to let Luke go to the acedemy if I remember Beru right), that's why he bought more droids? I kinda wander what Owen was going to do other that sit on his ass and drink blue milk, other than the occasional trip to town for business/errands?

By the way execellent job Havok.

P.S.: How many people are actually portrayed as being able to understand non Basic speaking droids (ie like R2)? I think we really only ever see main characters that have formed some kind of long term atypical relationship with them.