China's organ transplants come mostly from death row

[fgalkin]

For one thing, every death sentence in China since 2007 is reviewed by a Higher People's Court and then by the Supreme People's Court before it is carried out.

Also, please bear in mind that China has one of the lowest organ donation rates in the world, in 2008, only 36 people donated organs -- out of a population of 1.3 billion. How else would they get organs for transplants?

In any case, as the article I quoted says, they are launching a public organ donor system which would reduce the dependency on organ harvesting/

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[General Zod]

Do bear in mind China is a country where even top ranking national officials take bribes to allow 'medicines' and foods stuffed full of lethal toxins into the market. Given that what's so far fetched about the notion of local law enforcement officials taking kickbacks from those who deal in human organs?

Turns out there's a difference between an official state approved policy and general corruption?

[Beowulf]

Do bear in mind China is a country where even top ranking national officials take bribes to allow 'medicines' and foods stuffed full of lethal toxins into the market. Given that what's so far fetched about the notion of local law enforcement officials taking kickbacks from those who deal in human organs?

What's that? They were sentenced to death? *shock*

[fgalkin]

Do bear in mind China is a country where even top ranking national officials take bribes to allow 'medicines' and foods stuffed full of lethal toxins into the market. Given that what's so far fetched about the notion of local law enforcement officials taking kickbacks from those who deal in human organs?

What's that? They were sentenced to death? *shock*

I wonder if THEIR organs were harvested, too, by the EEEEEVIL Chinese!

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Plekhanov]

For one thing, every death sentence in China since 2007 is reviewed by a Higher People's Court and then by the Supreme People's Court before it is carried out.

And this is a genuine and thorough impartial review as opposed to a PR exercise it? According to Amnesty China executed "at least 1,718" last year are you seriously claiming that the "Higher People's Court and then by the Supreme People's Court" seriously reviewed every single one?

Can you tell us what proportion of death penalties are withdrawn after this review? What proportion of convicts are exonerated completely?

You must have some notion of what the human rights situation in China is and how closed the government is, are you seriously suggesting that we should take these reviews at face value? Do bear in mind this is a country where the total number of executions is a state secret.

Also, please bear in mind that China has one of the lowest organ donation rates in the world, in 2008, only 36 people donated organs -- out of a population of 1.3 billion. How else would they get organs for transplants?

Which of course serves to increase the value of executed prisoners organs.

In any case, as the article I quoted says, they are launching a public organ donor system which would reduce the dependency on organ harvesting.

Yes and?

[Plekhanov]

Turns out there's a difference between an official state approved policy and general corruption?

When did I say that wrongly sentencing people to death in order to harvest their organs had to be an official national level policy for the practice of harvesting organs from executed prisoners to be problematic?

[General Zod]

Turns out there's a difference between an official state approved policy and general corruption?

When did I say that wrongly sentencing people to death in order to harvest their organs had to be an official national level policy for the practice of harvesting organs from executed prisoners to be problematic?

When you didn't bother actually considering why we were attacking Lord of the Abyss before jumping to his defense.

[fgalkin]

For one thing, every death sentence in China since 2007 is reviewed by a Higher People's Court and then by the Supreme People's Court before it is carried out.

And this is a genuine and thorough impartial review as opposed to a PR exercise it? According to Amnesty China executed "at least 1,718" last year are you seriously claiming that the "Higher People's Court and then by the Supreme People's Court" seriously reviewed every single one?

Considering the Supreme People's Court has over 200 Judges? Why not? That's less than 10 cases per Judge per year.

Can you tell us what proportion of death penalties are withdrawn after this review? What proportion of convicts are exonerated completely?

The Supreme People's Court has overturned 15% of death sentences applied by lower courts in 2008.

You must have some notion of what the human rights situation in China is and how closed the government is, are you seriously suggesting that we should take these reviews at face value? Do bear in mind this is a country where the total number of executions is a state secret.

Nor is it a cartoonishly evil dictatorhip of power-hungry and corrupt morons. The reviews are obviously somewhat effective, so it's not exactly a rubber stamp, either. We cannot just assume that there is a system to kill innocent people for their organs, as some people here are claiming, without at least some evidence to back it up.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Lord of the Abyss]

"Obvious" to your conspiracy-addled mind, maybe. "It's a coverup!" has been used by fine people like yourself as an excuse not to look for evidence for decades. "They're EVIL!" is not sufficient proof for that.

Don't be silly. I'm simply assuming that people with a history of murderous ruthlessness will behave in a murderous and ruthless fashion. What's going to stop them? Why wouldn't they do what I suggest?

So, your proof is "they're evil. Organ harvesting is evil. So, they will do it!"

Let's paraphrase:

I'm simply assuming that people (the Bush Administration) with a history of murderous ruthlessness (the Iraq war) will behave in a murderous and ruthless fashion. What's going to stop them from destroying the WTC? Why wouldn't they do what I suggest?

You've just proven that 9/11 was a government conspiracy! Amazing!

If I had ever SAID there was proof you might have a point, but I didn't so you don't. I said that it was a reasonable suspicion that they are, or sooner or later will do so.

China has been notorious for its suppression of people who oppose the CCPs rule, and for the corruption on the lower levels of government. How does that translate into "cartoonishly evil?".

"Cartoonishly evil?" They've done much worse. You make me think of someone who is shocked-SHOCKED that I would suspect a Mafia Don of cheating at cards.

Why wouldn't they do what I suggest?

The damage to their reputation (something they rather obvioiusly care about) if news of such a policy ever gets out?

How would it get out? And who would care that isn't already angry at them anyway?

I already said what's wrong, repeatedly. It creates a motivation to kill, among people who have neither moral scruples or practical restraints to keep them from killing.

I'd say the lack of moral scruples and practical restraints is a problem, but that's just me.

Considering that you are denying that they are a problem, apparently not. You have apparently decided that despite their known ruthlessness, they'd never do something like kill people for their own benefit. What is killing a relatively small number of people for their organs compared to what they do all the time?

[General Zod]

Considering that you are denying that they are a problem, apparently not. You have apparently decided that despite their known ruthlessness, they'd never do something like kill people for their own benefit. What is killing a relatively small number of people for their organs compared to what they do all the time?

Who needs evidence when speculation is easier, *I'm a smarmy asshole*?

[Plekhanov]

Turns out there's a difference between an official state approved policy and general corruption?

When did I say that wrongly sentencing people to death in order to harvest their organs had to be an official national level policy for the practice of harvesting organs from executed prisoners to be problematic?

When you didn't bother actually considering why we were attacking Lord of the Abyss before jumping to his defense.

Because it's simply inconceivable that someone would enter a thread and contribute to it with their own take on the issues being discussed

Can you tell us what proportion of death penalties are withdrawn after this review? What proportion of convicts are exonerated completely?

The Supreme People's Court has overturned 15% of death sentences applied by lower courts in 2008.

And you accept that figure at face value do you? Even when your own source points out that the actual number of people executed is a state secret?

Nor is it a cartoonishly evil dictatorhip of power-hungry and corrupt morons.

Just because the regime isn't kidnap your favourite film directory and force him to eat grass crazy it doesn't mean it isn't both evil and corrupt at the top and further down.

The reviews are obviously somewhat effective, so it's not exactly a rubber stamp, either.

And your grounds for these claims are what beyond a statement by a high ranking official of the repressive dictatorship in question? Do you accept all PR statements made by dictatorial regimes or just this one?

We cannot just assume that there is a system to kill innocent people for their organs, as some people here are claiming, without at least some evidence to back it up.

Lord of the Abyss has been arguing that there's reason to suspect this is could happen and may well be happening not that it definitely is. As for evidence to back up this suspicion how about the corruption that's so prevalent in China that it can't be covered up and the regimes extremely well documented lack of concern for human rights?

[General Zod]

Because it's simply inconceivable that someone would enter a thread and contribute to it with their own take on the issues being discussed

Because regurgitating outrages that were made earlier is such a useful contribution.

Lord of the Abyss has been arguing that there's reason to suspect this is could happen and may well be happening not that it definitely is. As for evidence to back up this suspicion how about the corruption that's so prevalent in China that it can't be covered up and the regimes extremely well documented lack of concern for human rights?

If you want to prove that a specific event is happening you need to do better than screech "But, but, but, they're corrupt!!1!111"

[Plekhanov]

The more detailed Guardian story on the issue shows there's every reason to be concerned that harvesting organs from executed prisoners can lead to corruption.

Executed prisoners are main source of Chinese organ donations

Chinese authorities launch a national donation scheme, as death-row figures are revealed

Two-thirds of organ donors in China are executed prisoners, state media reported today, as health officials launched a national donation system.

The authorities have previously acknowledged that corneas, kidneys and other body parts from criminals have been transplanted. But the new figure offers a startling insight into the scale of the country's reliance on death-row inmates, despite laws supposed to curb the use of their organs.

Officials hope the new scheme will tackle the thriving black market in body parts, and encourage voluntary donation, which remains far below demand. The state newspaper China Daily said that about one million people needed transplants each year – but only 1% received them.

"Transplants should not be a privilege for the rich," said Huang Jiefu, vice-minister for health.

He said written consent was required from condemned prisoners but added that they were "definitely not a proper source for organ transplants".

He told China Daily that some hospitals ignored the rules because of high profits. The newspaper said experts estimated that more than 65% of donors were criminals who had received the death penalty.

Two years ago, China ruled that organs from executed prisoners would be given only to family members, and that living donors could give body parts only to relatives or those with an "emotional connection".

But the percentage of transplants from living donors has risen from 15% in 2006 to 40%, said Professor Chen Zhonghua, of the Institute of Organ Transplantation of Tongji Hospital. He told the newspaper that since 2003, only 130 people on the mainland – which has a population of more than 1.3 billion – had signed up to donate their organs following their death.

Tales of foreigners travelling to China for transplants and illegal transplants from living donors are rife, and the newspaper said that middlemen specialised in faking documents to evade the law.

It added that patients could pay up to 200,000 yuan (£18,000) for a kidney.

This year, a study in the journal Clinical Transplantation said that only 4% of transplant experts surveyed believed procurement processes in China were ethically sound. It also cited World Health Organisation figures suggesting that around 10% of transplants occurred via "transplant tourism" in 2005, with China among the leading destinations for patients.

A World Medical Association agreement – signed by China among others – asks countries not to use organs from death-row prisoners because of concerns about whether they have truly given informed consent.

"The implementation of the death penalty is completely opaque in China – there is absolutely no transparency," said Phelim Kine, Asia researcher for Human Rights Watch. "Therefore, there is a complete lack of transparency with regard to transplantation and the disposal of the organs of death-row prisoners, whom we now know constitute the majority of donors in China."

He added that it seemed "highly unlikely" that prisoners were giving organs only to their families if they constituted 65% or more of donors.

The number of people executed in China is a state secret, but Amnesty International said that at least 1,718 people were executed in 2008 – more than in any other country – based on recorded cases. Human rights groups suggest the true number runs into several thousands, although officials say their "kill fewer, kill carefully" campaign has cut the numbers and have pledged to further reduce use of the death penalty.

The new transplant scheme, run by health officials and the Red Cross, will match needy patients with potential donors and encourage people to allow their organs to be used after death.

Huang said it took 20 years to create a nationwide system in the United States, but that China hoped to roll out the 10 pilot projects more quickly.

"The system is in the public interest and will benefit patients regardless of social status and wealth in terms of fairness in organ allocation and better procurement," he added.

[Plekhanov]

Because it's simply inconceivable that someone would enter a thread and contribute to it with their own take on the issues being discussed

Because regurgitating outrages that were made earlier is such a useful contribution.

I've just pointed out how what I and Abyss have said differ somewhat, how is that 'regurgitating outrages'? Maybe next time you should actually respond to what people post instead of getting so pissy when they point out you've straw manned them.

Lord of the Abyss has been arguing that there's reason to suspect this is could happen and may well be happening not that it definitely is. As for evidence to back up this suspicion how about the corruption that's so prevalent in China that it can't be covered up and the regimes extremely well documented lack of concern for human rights?

If you want to prove that a specific event is happening you need to do better than screech "But, but, but, they're corrupt!!1!111"

Another strawman, so far as I'm aware neither I nor Abyss have argued that a specific event definitely is happening but that their are grounds for suspicion it might be.

[Simon_Jester]

Do you have any proof of this allegation that people are being executed for their organs or are you just theorizing? I would, for example, like to see a rundown of the age breakdown of the people being given death sentences versus people given lighter sentences for similar crimes.

By the way, the cases quoted in that Amnesty article are hardly worse than, say Texas. The real issue here is corruption and lack of transparency in the justice system, not organ harvesting.

So? If Texas harvested organs you bet your ass that there'd be even more death row inmates.

And no, no I will not have a nice day.

if the state has a financial incentive to execute people and if the state has a lousy excuse for legal due process

Its arguably cheaper to execute people than keep them in prison for a lifetime, so that argument works for every country on the planet.

Apparently Texas executes nearly triple the number of people per capita than China.

Note the "and" statement. Texas has a crappy legal system, and even other Americans notice how crappy it is (they also lead the US in executions per capita, you'll note), and they have a general financial incentive to execute people, and behold! Lots of executions. Not a surprise.

Believe Americans when they tell you that a crappy legal system will kill lots of people. We should know; we can visit the evidence without a passport.

Let's paraphrase:

I'm simply assuming that people (the Bush Administration) with a history of murderous ruthlessness (the Iraq war) will behave in a murderous and ruthless fashion. What's going to stop them from destroying the WTC? Why wouldn't they do what I suggest?

You've just proven that 9/11 was a government conspiracy! Amazing!

Now that's just dumb. You're ignoring relative levels of ruthlessness, feasibility of carrying out the proposed new ruthless act, and incentives. You're not paralleling his argument at all, except in grammatical structure, and you could have done that with any random crap hammered together from Mad Libs.

China has been notorious for its suppression of people who oppose the CCPs rule, and for the corruption on the lower levels of government. How does that translate into "cartoonishly evil?".

Who said this is cartoonish? You need a few judges who are complete bastards (and getting a kickback for harvested organs), combined with a general level of indifference that will rubber-stamp the death warrants signed by those judges because who gives a crap if some random peasant in the hills gets chopped up for spare parts?

That's not cartoon evil. That's a fairly normal level of evil, as the evils of autocratic governments go. A few complete bastards plus an indifferent bureaucracy is usually the best you can hope for.

[General Zod]

I've just pointed out how what I and Abyss have said differ somewhat, how is that 'regurgitating outrages'? Maybe next time you should actually respond to what people post instead of getting so pissy when they point out you've straw manned them.

How is it 'tin foil hat' stuff to suspect that in a country as repressive as China, with so little even vaguely resembling checks and balances or due process and consequently with governmental structures as prone to corruption as China that getting something as valuable as donor organs from executed 'criminals' could create an incentive for corrupt officials to convict and execute people?

Assuming that a ruthless tyranny is going to behave in a ruthless fashion is "tinfoil hat" now? Since when has China been known for it's attachment to mercy, justice and human rights?

Same thing but only slightly different wording. I don't think you actually know what a strawman is.

Another strawman, so far as I'm aware neither I nor Abyss have argued that a specific event definitely is happening but that their are grounds for suspicion it might be.

Okay, so you don't actually know what a strawman is. You can claim there's grounds for suspicion all you want, but without something better than "but corruption111111!11!" your suspicions are somewhat baseless. I'm not denying that China has done and won't do horrible shit, but without some actual evidence your claims hold about as much water as Bush planting bombs and destroying the WTC so he could justify an Iraq invasion. You'd think any kind of systemic plot to harvest organs from executed convicts for profit would be generate a lot of paper trails and that someone would eventually spill the beans on something; so I really don't see why anyone needs to resort to conspiracy theory bullshit.

[ArmorPierce]

Regardless, the organs are taken from prisoners only after consent. What makes so many death row inmates decide to donate organs when so few Chinese does is the question.

[mr friendly guy]

Some of the benefit / money from donating the organ are supposed to go to the executed person's family. Since they have already been sentenced to death they may as well try to benefit their surviving relatives.