Undertipping teaches valuable lessons

[Darth Fanboy]

Is that a continuation of the thing Steve mentioned, or just you being a jerk-ass/cheapskate?

I'm very sorry the government taxes their tips, that's fucked up. That ain't my fault. It would seem to me that waitresses are one of the many groups the government fucks in the ass on a regular basis. Look, if you ask me to sign something that says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it, put it to a vote, I'll vote for it, but what I won't do is play ball. And as for this non-college bullshit I got two words for that: learn to fuckin' type, 'cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent you're in for a big fuckin' surprise.

[sketerpot]

This tipping crap is why I get my restaurant food from HyVee, where the only service is that they put your food on a plate and then hand the plate to you. The food tastes better that way. And honestly, I can handle a plate.

[Guardsman Bass]

Is that a continuation of the thing Steve mentioned, or just you being a jerk-ass/cheapskate?

I'm very sorry the government taxes their tips, that's fucked up. That ain't my fault. It would seem to me that waitresses are one of the many groups the government fucks in the ass on a regular basis. Look, if you ask me to sign something that says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it, put it to a vote, I'll vote for it, but what I won't do is play ball. And as for this non-college bullshit I got two words for that: learn to fuckin' type, 'cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent you're in for a big fuckin' surprise.

Finally, a youtube link! You could have just done that in the second post, you know - like others suggested. I've honestly never even heard of the movie.

[Stofsk]

Wow - really? Resevoir Dogs is Tarantino's best film - you have heard of Tarantino, right?

[Xisiqomelir]

Is that a continuation of the thing Steve mentioned, or just you being a jerk-ass/cheapskate?

I'm very sorry the government taxes their tips, that's fucked up. That ain't my fault. It would seem to me that waitresses are one of the many groups the government fucks in the ass on a regular basis. Look, if you ask me to sign something that says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it, put it to a vote, I'll vote for it, but what I won't do is play ball. And as for this non-college bullshit I got two words for that: learn to fuckin' type, 'cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent you're in for a big fuckin' surprise.

Finally, a youtube link! You could have just done that in the second post, you know - like others suggested. I've honestly never even heard of the movie.

You need to get off the Internet and down to Blockbuster.

[Invictus ChiKen]

There is something to be said of buffets...

[Edi]

Enough fucking spam.

[Rye]

Mr Pink's rant in Reservoir Dogs is totally on the money as far as I'm concerned. I don't get tips. Girls working in McDonalds and Burger King don't get tips. When you work, you agree to do the fucking job you're paid for, there shouldn't be a system of fucking bribes to make sure you do it properly. Might as well bribe the police and everyone else too.

[Stark]

That's the best part about the logic - they get paid poorly, so it's expected that you'll help them due to peer pressure/guilt/whatever... but this goes for every shit-paying job ever. Sewer cleaners are just less visible - and generally not young women - so nobody gives a shit.

[Teebs]

That's the best part about the logic - they get paid poorly, so it's expected that you'll help them due to peer pressure/guilt/whatever... but this goes for every shit-paying job ever. Sewer cleaners are just less visible - and generally not young women - so nobody gives a shit.

Depending on the country though tips might be included in wage setting. I'm pretty sure in the US it's legal to pay waiters below the minimum wage on the basis that they'll make it up with tips. That's why tipping culture differs around the world. As far as I know, no European countries have the level of tipping that the US does because waiters get better pay.

[Stark]

It's actually pretty funny that the expectation of tipping thus creates the low income that JUSTIFIES the tipping. I took a shit paying job because I expect to get 15% extorted out of customers, and if you don't, OH NO I HAVE A SHIT WAGE. Circular social guilt for the win!

[Crazedwraith]

The idea that you can legally get paid less than minimum wage is incredible. As in 'completely makes a mockery of the whole damn concept of minimum wage' incredible.

Like Rye, I agree completely with Mr Pink. I don't tip that much but then I don't think I live in a country where an expectation of tipping is built into law as far as I know.

[The Spartan]

The idea that you can legally get paid less than minimum wage is incredible. As in 'completely makes a mockery of the whole damn concept of minimum wage' incredible.

Technically you can't. I worked at a Sears where I made a less-than-minimum wage ($3.50) but was expected to make that up by selling things and thus earning commissions. If I failed to sell enough to make minimum or more, for whatever reason, Sears was required by law to make up the difference so that I was making minimum wage. Unfortunately, I then had to pay them back when that happened (and it did, especially after the holidays) out of the money I made on later commissions.

I'd be shocked if restaurants weren't required to do much the same.

[Oskuro]

Maybe it's not widespread, but last time on the States, the 10% for the tip was already included in the bill. I guess it was an initiative to stabilize wages and have customers feel they did they part. Yes, stupid circular logic, I'm with Stark on this one.

Really, if you're getting a wage to do a job, there's no need for incentives. I personally tip when I get good service (as in a waiter going out of his way to make things work). The rest of the time, if I have loose change after paying (on the rare occasion I don't pay via credit card) I might leave it. Still, it feels like charity and makes me uncomfortable to treat the waiter as someone deserving of my mercy or something.

If there's a political fight to be had is one to ensure that restaurants and the like pay decent wages to their employees, instead of relying on the "charity" of customers.

[Guardsman Bass]

Maybe it's not widespread, but last time on the States, the 10% for the tip was already included in the bill. I guess it was an initiative to stabilize wages and have customers feel they did they part. Yes, stupid circular logic, I'm with Stark on this one.

I've noticed most of the restaurants around here will do that with a really large bill or group - if it's beyond a certain amount (or certain amount of people, like six or seven), they'll just slap on a 15% "service charge" on to your bill.

If there's a political fight to be had is one to ensure that restaurants and the like pay decent wages to their employees, instead of relying on the "charity" of customers.

You'd have to get employers to actually pay decent wages. Right now, they keep their payroll costs low by effectively shifting the burden of paying the waiters a decent wage on to the customers directly.

[Simon_Jester]

You ... wait, what? What do you think voting, lobbying and protesting are about? Bah.

I don't have appreciable leverage there: an hour of my time will affect the probability of anything happening by something like 10^-6, probably orders of magnitude less. Whereas the probability that I can do something about the tips I personally give is 1.

I don't tip because society says I have to. All right, if someone deserves a tip, if they really put forth an effort, I'll give them something a little something extra. But this tipping automatically, it's for the birds. As far as I'm concerned, they're just doing their job.

So I says to Mr. Pink:
Yeah, but they don't get paid to do their jobs because their boss figures that you will pay them to do their job. If you refuse to pay them for doing their job for you, they don't get paid to do the job for you at all. So society can go fuck itself with a pineapple; this is about dealing fairly with people one-on-one.

You think they get minimum wage? Bullshit. Waitresses get paid shit. If you think they deserve to get paid more than shit, even minimum wage, give her a damn tip. A waitress gets paid shit for serving you unless you give her a tip. It's that simple.

It's actually pretty funny that the expectation of tipping thus creates the low income that JUSTIFIES the tipping. I took a shit paying job because I expect to get 15% extorted out of customers, and if you don't, OH NO I HAVE A SHIT WAGE. Circular social guilt for the win!

If they paid the waitresses properly, they'd have to get the money from somewhere. Their only source of income is their customers. So they'd add the price of the service (the tips) to your bill up front... which some restaurants already do. The difference is that then you'd get no feedback, no way to reward competent waiters and punish incompetent ones. Would you rather do it that way? It's a reasonable way to do things... but recognize that the price of food at restaurants is going to go up about 15% if we do it that way.

Maybe it's not widespread, but last time on the States, the 10% for the tip was already included in the bill. I guess it was an initiative to stabilize wages and have customers feel they did they part. Yes, stupid circular logic, I'm with Stark on this one.

It depends on the location and on the restaurant.

[Themightytom]

I'm actually FROM concord NH and there is a beefside grill. I kind of want to go see if the waitress is real...

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Man, where the fuck can I get a waitress served lunch for $4.75? That's when I knew the article was bullshit.

And please oh please, listen to Hipper folks. I managed one of those take and bake Pizza joints for about a year, the ones that the customers think because there is no delivery and they have to cook it themselves that you are not really doing anything... man... just listen to Hipper OK.

P.S. Just because someone is making your food/drink RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU (Starbucks, bars) means NOTHING. You would be amazed the slight of hand we of the food service industry and veterans are capable of.

ALWAYS be nice to people preparing and taking care of your food.

I just realized something: This is a very light version of mafia strongarm tactics, "Pay us extra for our service or we'll make you regret it."

I sometimes tip. If the service is awesome, I'll tip awesomely. If the service is crap, I don't tip and don't return. I'm with Stark and Rye on this one, it's not the customer's responsibility to make up for the wait staff's inadequate wages. If I have to deal with slightly higher prices to ensure the wait staff gets legally paid correctly, so fucking be it. The price of the food is more often than not listed right there on the menu, that (plus tax) is what the customer should expect to pay, and a tip should be exactly that, a special bonus for awesome service, not a bloody expectation.

In my opinion the only place that tipping should be expected is entertainment. I've work theater, done busking (passing the hat) and know a number of people who rely on that and only that as their income. They work their asses off for tips because it is that damned important and valuable to them. The same standard should apply to restaurants: I shouldn't have to pay extra for merely adequate service, but I'm willing to give more for extra performance, and it should be the government enforcing proper pay rather than consumers.

As mentioned before, do you tip the bus driver? Your local cops? The janitor? The street sweeper? Do you toss a few dollars down an open manhole to the guys working down there in thanks for the great job they're doing in keeping shit from overflowing onto the streets? How about the overworked guy at Burger King who's dealing with an enraged fat-ass and trying to get your order at the same time? I've worked both types of restaurant, and the difficulty is more or less equal for both, so why does one get tips and the other doesn't? Because one is below minimum wage? Why the fuck is that? It's more or less the same fucking job!

[Stark]

If they paid the waitresses properly, they'd have to get the money from somewhere. Their only source of income is their customers. So they'd add the price of the service (the tips) to your bill up front... which some restaurants already do.

Amazing. It's such a simple solution but... impossible somehow. This also has nothing whatsoever to do with my point - that people TAKING these jobs do so on the EXPECTATION they will recieve tips, yet not tipping them is callous/rude/whatever. It's circular - people taking shit jobs creates a guilt cycle, but only in high visibility jobs. Hilarious. At least it's not socialist?

The difference is that then you'd get no feedback, no way to reward competent waiters and punish incompetent ones.

Yeah, because this system works, right? And this is even in America, where a shit worker can just be fired. Imagine how mythical this is in Australia with no tipping and entrench workforces... OH WAIT!

Would you rather do it that way? It's a reasonable way to do things... but recognize that the price of food at restaurants is going to go up about 15% if we do it that way.

American exceptionalism AGAIN? You guys are hilarious. I love threads where people basically say 'it can't change ever because of xyz horrible problems'. Even more hilarious, if someone was busted for contaminating food for non-tippers, I bet people would say they deserved no punishment and shouldn't be fired! Because it's part of their job to extort money from customers through social pressure and threat of contamination. It's like the Wild West philosophy - EVERY TIME YOU BUY A SANDWICH.

Having actual labour laws would be way too hard.

[Frank Hipper]

I just realized something: This is a very light version of mafia strongarm tactics, "Pay us extra for our service or we'll make you regret it."

Incorrect, Mafia protection rackets operate with both parties being aware of the concequences of non-payment; the bitter sociopathic drug addict defiling your food operates with the hope that the customer eats bodily filth without ever knowing it, and derives his satisfaction from making rich mockery of the customer's naivite.

Just so everyone's clear; I have never done anything to a customer's food, they're innocents in my eyes...

...co-workers, now, that's a different story.

[ArmorPierce]

Mr Pink's rant in Reservoir Dogs is totally on the money as far as I'm concerned. I don't get tips. Girls working in McDonalds and Burger King don't get tips. When you work, you agree to do the fucking job you're paid for, there shouldn't be a system of fucking bribes to make sure you do it properly. Might as well bribe the police and everyone else too.

Right, cause less than minimum wage is a just wage

That said, a lot of them make significantly more than minimum wage through tips, especially good looking girls. A lot of them is making more than I am as a fresh college graduate. Of course my wage will tend to go up over the years whilst theirs will probably go down.

It's actually pretty funny that the expectation of tipping thus creates the low income that JUSTIFIES the tipping. I took a shit paying job because I expect to get 15% extorted out of customers, and if you don't, OH NO I HAVE A SHIT WAGE. Circular social guilt for the win!

employer has to make up the difference if the person working on tips don't make enough tips.

[Stark]

So... it ALREADY COSTS MORE. That people can't see how this system is fundamentally broken amuses the hell out of me. They can't raise wages because OMG FREE MARKIT, but the employer makes up the difference anyway so ... um... this makes sense somehow.

Aside from 'people like to feel big by giving attractive yet poor women extra money'.

[aerius]

I'm with Mr. Pink on tipping. Yeah it's a fucked up system, but if I and the rest of society keeps playing the game we enable the stupid tipping system to continue and wages will never get fixed for the wait staff. If enough people stopped tipping automatically then waiters will no longer have a living wage and they will be outta there and claiming welfare or whatever because it pays better. No waiters, the restaurant is fucked. Now they'll actually have to pay the waiters minimum wage or more to get them to work there. Problem solved.

[Erik von Nein]

You ... wait, what? What do you think voting, lobbying and protesting are about? Bah.

I don't have appreciable leverage there: an hour of my time will affect the probability of anything happening by something like 10^-6, probably orders of magnitude less. Whereas the probability that I can do something about the tips I personally give is 1.

I thought you meant your impact on changing the system so tipping was no longer required.

But, yeah, what Stark said; if you honestly think tipping poorly means someone changes their waiting habits you're incredibly naive. From all accounts I've seen this just makes them want to take personal revenge on you at worse and, at best, just makes them hate you.

EDIT: For reference two different stories told on two different mediums with the same name: "Waiting." The movie is a comedy about waiting at a place similar to TGIF or Applebee's, where the wait staff and kitchen staff take joy in tormenting costumers who, at least in the movie, are total jackasses. The book, though, gives a more detailed and accurate account from a woman who has been working as a waitress for over 25 years.

From the book the best way to not leave tips while still allowing you the chance to go back without vengeance is to explain that you don't believe in tipping and are working against the system. While wait staff generally don't like that answer it usually results in them not totally despising you.

[Simon_Jester]

I just realized something: This is a very light version of mafia strongarm tactics, "Pay us extra for our service or we'll make you regret it."

Yes, but if they don't use those tactics, they encourage the customers to go all "I can be an complete prick to you because the idea of paying you offends my sense of social justice, and I can do it with impunity" on them.

And, once again, no one involved is paying them enough to put up with assholes and never answer back. Their bosses aren't paying them enough to stand still and do nothing, because if you stood still and did nothing all day for that salary you'd starve or wind up living in a cardboard box. And if you're not tipping them, damn sure you aren't paying them enough to put up with assholes. Even if minimum wage is enough money to justify having to up with assholes with no means of recourse, and I'm not saying it is, they don't get paid even that.

I'm with Stark and Rye on this one, it's not the customer's responsibility to make up for the wait staff's inadequate wages. If I have to deal with slightly higher prices to ensure the wait staff gets legally paid correctly, so fucking be it.

So you base your personal decision on what to do towards individual waiters on how you think society ought to work, at their expense?

As mentioned before, do you tip the bus driver? Your local cops? The janitor? The street sweeper? Do you toss a few dollars down an open manhole to the guys working down there in thanks for the great job they're doing in keeping shit from overflowing onto the streets? How about the overworked guy at Burger King who's dealing with an enraged fat-ass and trying to get your order at the same time? I've worked both types of restaurant, and the difficulty is more or less equal for both, so why does one get tips and the other doesn't? Because one is below minimum wage? Why the fuck is that? It's more or less the same fucking job!

Because sit-down restaurant owners got away with it, that's why. The guys who run fast food joints didn't quite manage to pull the same racket.

The difference is that then you'd get no feedback, no way to reward competent waiters and punish incompetent ones.

Yeah, because this system works, right? And this is even in America, where a shit worker can just be fired. Imagine how mythical this is in Australia with no tipping and entrench workforces... OH WAIT!

Would you rather do it that way? It's a reasonable way to do things... but recognize that the price of food at restaurants is going to go up about 15% if we do it that way.

(Emphasis added)

American exceptionalism AGAIN? You guys are hilarious. I love threads where people basically say 'it can't change ever because of xyz horrible problems'. Even more hilarious, if someone was busted for contaminating food for non-tippers, I bet people would say they deserved no punishment and shouldn't be fired! Because it's part of their job to extort money from customers through social pressure and threat of contamination. It's like the Wild West philosophy - EVERY TIME YOU BUY A SANDWICH.
Having actual labour laws would be way too hard.

Hell, I don't oppose those labor laws. I don't think having the restaurant take the tips out of your bill in advance would be a big deal. But it is a cost: you end up spending the money either way. As long as you're willing to accept that (which it sounds like you are), fine. Never said it wasn't fine. I'd be fine with it myself, as I said, it's a reasonable way to do things. But since I don't care to become a labor activist, I just tip waiters and leave it at that.

But I know people who would bitch about having to tip the waiter and then bitch about the prices in the restaurants going up if the minimum wage for waiters went up to the point where they didn't need the tips. Some people just like to bitch about "How dare those people expect me to give them money? I owe them NOTHING!" regardless of whether or not it makes sense for them to bitch. And they wouldn't accept the cost of doing business the way the rest of the civilized world does it.

So I don't oppose rationalizing the labor laws so that waiters don't depend on tips for income. What I do oppose is behaving as if rational labor laws exist when they don't. Which is what you're doing by making a principled stand against tipping waiters in the US on the grounds that they ought to get paid enough not to need your tips.

So... it ALREADY COSTS MORE. That people can't see how this system is fundamentally broken amuses the hell out of me. They can't raise wages because OMG FREE MARKIT, but the employer makes up the difference anyway so ... um... this makes sense somehow.

If you think I'm going OMG FREE MARKIT on you, you weren't paying attention. I think there's a slight drawback to removing the user input on tip sizes, but I don't think it's a huge deal and I didn't say I did. So if I'm not, who is?