Undertipping teaches valuable lessons

[Stark]

Or I was replying to ArmourPierce. I even got it in right after him this time!

[Frank Hipper]

What kills me about this revolving door argument is the lengths to which people will go to justify bitching about the price of a luxury item.

Eating out is a luxury, period.

Don't like the cost?
Tough fucking shit, moron; got to hamburger/fish-n-chips/ramen stand, or eat at home.

[Stark]

Isn't it true that tipping occurs anywhere with waitstaff, including shit like diners etc? They don't appear to be quality establishments unless Hollywood has lied to me.

[Frank Hipper]

Isn't it true that tipping occurs anywhere with waitstaff, including shit like diners etc? They don't appear to be quality establishments unless Hollywood has lied to me.

Just because it's of questionable quality doesn't mean it's a necessity.

Everyone must eat, that's necessity, no one has to eat out where they're waited on.

[Molyneux]

Isn't it true that tipping occurs anywhere with waitstaff, including shit like diners etc? They don't appear to be quality establishments unless Hollywood has lied to me.

Most of the best food I've had outside my house has been at diners. And yes, you tip at a diner. Not sure what your definition of "quality establishment" is, but I'd take the best twenty-four-hour diner near my house over any ten gourmet eateries.

[Stark]

That's pretty stupid, since they serve totally different kinds of food.

[Darth Fanboy]

"Why tip someone for a job I'm capable of doing myself? I can deliver food. I can drive a taxi. I can, and do, cut my own hair. I did however, tip my urologist, because I am unable to pulverize my own kidney stones."



Ok I'll stop quoting TV/Films. The only time I ever see the tip added to the bill is at sit-down places where they automatically add the 15% tip to large parties normally 8 or more people. It's not universal, and i'm sure if you complained to the manager you could get it off of your bill, but I think it's a little silly. I'm not against the current system of tipping here in the U.S. because it's completely voluntary how much or how little you want to pay extra. I like to tip bartenders well, especially for mixed drinks.

Isn't it true that tipping occurs anywhere with waitstaff, including shit like diners etc? They don't appear to be quality establishments unless Hollywood has lied to me.

Well a lot of those places just put out a jar or a box and let people throw money in at their leisure, and you would normally see people throw in the remainder of their change or a dollar or something like that.

[Molyneux]

That's pretty stupid, since they serve totally different kinds of food.

What exactly do you mean by that?
In general, both the quality and quantity of the food and quality of the service, not to mention the price, are superior in diners than in the gourmet establishments I've visited. The sole exception is a nice little French place in Queens, which happens to be family-owned and -run.

[Covenant]

I almost never eat out if I can, at any point, avoid it. I consider it an unwelcome forced luxury to have someone transport my food to me. It's not just that I can do it myself, it's that I would rather do it myself and would rather they not do it at all. I also find the childish antics I've heard of pretty annoying, like the ones mentioned here, so when I do eat out I try to buy something relatively simple and tip no more than necessary unless my server had more to do than simply transport a plate to me.

I actually worked a hard labor job loading heavy things into people's trucks, and they would occasionally tip you for it, but it was pretty random and almost never more than a dollar or two. That's the closest I've got to waiting. But the idea I'd compromise the service I give just because the tip was insufficent? That's idiotic.

Just put it on my bill, don't make me calculate it myself in the midst of a group, and don't make it some kind of value judgement.

[Simon_Jester]

Or I was replying to ArmourPierce. I even got it in right after him this time!

So... was ArmorPierce going OMG FREE MARKIT? How?

Isn't it true that tipping occurs anywhere with waitstaff, including shit like diners etc? They don't appear to be quality establishments unless Hollywood has lied to me.

A crappy diner is really crappy. A good diner has great ambience, reasonably nice food, and sane prices... if you're not allergic to the American lower middle class. In my own experiences, the diner waitresses I've met were more likely to really earn their tip than those elsewhere.

[Rye]

Right, cause less than minimum wage is a just wage

Yeah, it is. If labour laws are inconsistent, how is that my fault? Moral of the story: don't agree to work for peanuts, don't stand for that bullshit. The employer is taking your tip money to pad his expenses.

employer has to make up the difference if the person working on tips don't make enough tips.

They should be paying them properly in the first place. Tips are something you give if you're impressed, not as standard to make sure you get what you've already paid for without shit in it. If you bought a laptop from PC world, should you have to pass the guy 50 quid so he doesn't fucking stab the lcd screen with a pen? If the market can't sustain those prices, raise them so all the fucking costs are covered. That's how it's meant to work.

[Next of Kin]

Well a lot of those places just put out a jar or a box and let people throw money in at their leisure, and you would normally see people throw in the remainder of their change or a dollar or something like that.

The ubiquitous tip jar is just about in most places these days. I prefer throwing my change into the containers at Tim Horton's and McDonald's that goes towards the various charities that those businesses support.

When I worked computer sales at Staples about 10 years ago I would often setup and install computer systems that I sold. The closest thing to a tip that I received was a bottle of red wine. However, I never expected so much as a cent. I did the installations because it meant closing the deal.

[Raw Shark]

[snip] Slight tangent, does anyone else tip cash whenever possible? I learned this habit from my father, and I wonder if it actually helps my waiter/cabbie/etc rather than writing it in on the bill.

Yes, I do that also. I can't speak for the rest of the service industry, but tipping (and for that matter paying your entire bill) in cash actually helps cab drivers a lot.

When I get a credit card slip, I have to wait as much as a week sometimes before I see the money because I have to turn it in to the company. Meanwhile, I need cash today to put into the bank so I can write checks for my bills and to put gasoline in the vehicle (oh yeah, and if anything's left maybe to feed myself too). I try to keep enough of a capital surplus for the business to make it a non-issue, but the economy is for shit right now, nobody's going out, and I'm living hand to mouth. Also, part of the extortionate sum that the company charges me every week is to cover the expenses that they incur by processing the cards for me, getting credit slips processed adds time to the ridiculous DMV-like ordeal that I go through to pay them, and if I was the sort of dishonest individual who was inclined to under-report my tips to screw the tax man (say for example in anger over being expected to pay twice what everyone else does into the Social Security fund that I'll never see a dime of) it would assist me tremendously with that as well. Finally, when you pay cash the deal is done. With credit cards I have to worry that every retarded drunk who changes the destination on me three times will forget everything in the morning, call the company when they see the bill, and try to get the (usually significant) charges removed (which sometimes works depending on how circular the route looks on the GPS records and/or how badly they mangled their signature) on the basis that I ran them all around, call me a few mornings later when I'm asleep (because they have my cell number from a call-out) shitting a rock because their card's web site says the company authorized for more than the final charges (like everybody does now), or various other shenanigans. Many cab drivers here refuse non-cash payment entirely when they can afford to be picky, and the company doesn't care if we demand that people pay in gold teeth as long as we show up with the rent on Monday.

To a cab driver, cash is king.

[Frank Hipper]

I almost never eat out if I can, at any point, avoid it.

Probably the most practical and insightful thing that's been said in this entire thread.

[frogcurry]

[snip] Slight tangent, does anyone else tip cash whenever possible? I learned this habit from my father, and I wonder if it actually helps my waiter/cabbie/etc rather than writing it in on the bill.

Yes, I do that also. I can't speak for the rest of the service industry, but tipping (and for that matter paying your entire bill) in cash actually helps cab drivers a lot.

My taxi driver yesterday was telling me the exact opposite, about how much better it was to be able to start taking payments in the cab by credit card. They have problems in some parts of the city with junkies trying to hold the taxi up for the cash late at night.

[Raw Shark]

Yes, I do that also. I can't speak for the rest of the service industry, but tipping (and for that matter paying your entire bill) in cash actually helps cab drivers a lot.

My taxi driver yesterday was telling me the exact opposite, about how much better it was to be able to start taking payments in the cab by credit card. They have problems in some parts of the city with junkies trying to hold the taxi up for the cash late at night.

We're going to get robbed either way, and that doesn't contradict anything else that I said about it. They can't eliminate cash payment from this business entirely, which means that I need to carry around a bunch of 1s and 5s to make change (or stop and buy a dollar of gas every time I accept a 20). I drop off extra cash at home a couple times a night to minimize the potential loss.

Thought of another reason why credit sucks: Authorizing a credit card in the car involves a non-trivial amount of paperwork and the computer system tends to logjam around last call when everybody is on the road trying to use it at once, so a customer who pays with a credit card between about 1 and 3 am forces me to risk losing part of the most valuable two hours of my day running their shit twenty times until it finally goes through (which usually annoys the customer and reduces my tip even though I would certainly do it faster if I had the option).

[The Yosemite Bear]

Man, where the fuck can I get a waitress served lunch for $4.75? That's when I knew the article was bullshit.

And please oh please, listen to Hipper folks. I managed one of those take and bake Pizza joints for about a year, the ones that the customers think because there is no delivery and they have to cook it themselves that you are not really doing anything... man... just listen to Hipper OK.

P.S. Just because someone is making your food/drink RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU (Starbucks, bars) means NOTHING. You would be amazed the slight of hand we of the food service industry and veterans are capable of.

ALWAYS be nice to people preparing and taking care of your food.

Remember we are cooks, we know how to make evidence of bad guests dissapear, you never know what's in that ham we served those senior citizens and tourists, nor will we comment on any upswing in Jacobs/Kertzfeld disease. <jk>

[The Yosemite Bear]

actually I have found out that former bussers are some of the best tippers. You know Redford still drops generous amounts when he comes to Yosemite where he used to be a busser before he became famous.

[Guardsman Bass]

actually I have found out that former bussers are some of the best tippers. You know Redford still drops generous amounts when he comes to Yosemite where he used to be a busser before he became famous.

I wonder if it's like that with most pizza delivery guys, too, because my brother is like that - after being a pizza delivery guy, he always tips generously.

[The Yosemite Bear]

it comes down to simple empathy of having been there. You should hear me with Telemarketers.

[Frank Hipper]

I leave 20%, unless it's an extraordinarily bad experience.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

I work one of those tipped jobs, I'm a pizza delivery driver. The place I work for pays drivers the full minimum wage, plus tips, (they are, however, an exception, and not required to do so) and its still the tips that let me do things like eat every day and keep gas in my car. If nobody tipped I'd run completely out of money about nine or ten days into a two week pay period, assuming a best case scenario.

Yes I know, the ideal solution would be for employers to pay everyone a decent living wage, but since when do we live in an ideal world? Remember that the only person you hurt by not tipping a waitress is the waitress.

Rye, "Don't agree to work for peanuts, don't stand for that bullshit, The employer is taking your tip money to pad his expenses." That's easy to say, if you've got a choice in the matter. Not everybody can afford to tell the boss to "Take this job and give it to someone else." Some people have to take what they can get.

[Stark]

I work one of those tipped jobs, I'm a pizza delivery driver. The place I work for pays drivers the full minimum wage, plus tips, (they are, however, an exception, and not required to do so) and its still the tips that let me do things like eat every day and keep gas in my car. If nobody tipped I'd run completely out of money about nine or ten days into a two week pay period, assuming a best case scenario.

Needs more social pressure but resistance to social programs.

Yes I know, the ideal solution would be for employers to pay everyone a decent living wage, but since when do we live in an ideal world?

Oh, you mean 'the rest of the western world' here I guess?

Remember that the only person you hurt by not tipping a waitress is the waitress.

And, y'know, me. And the next guy that gets served and is expected to tip. How do social pressures work again? Remember, taking a job that relies on tips and then complaining about people not tipping = their fault... somehow.

Rye, "Don't agree to work for peanuts, don't stand for that bullshit, The employer is taking your tip money to pad his expenses." That's easy to say, if you've got a choice in the matter. Not everybody can afford to tell the boss to "Take this job and give it to someone else." Some people have to take what they can get.

And some people have jobs that don't involve ridiculous ideas about wages and where the initiative in social programs should come from.

Ironically, in a country that doesn't force people to tip by punishing non-tippers and whinging like little bitches, tipping actually has an effect. If I tip someone (or simply can't be bother accepting change), people see it as a reward, instead of WHAT THEY DESERVE BECAUSE 15% FLAT TIP OR WE CRY AND STARVE. Welfare bad ... cynical attitude towards enforced tipping good! lol

[Simon_Jester]

Yes I know, the ideal solution would be for employers to pay everyone a decent living wage, but since when do we live in an ideal world?

Oh, you mean 'the rest of the western world' here I guess?

So what?

As far as this issue goes, you live in an ideal world, or at least an ideal country. I don't know why; I'm going to guess that your continent has saner politicians and a less broken democracy than my country. I don't live in an ideal country. He doesn't either. If you expect us to act exactly as you do where you live, while still living here instead of moving to where you live, you're out of your mind.

If you want to tell us our labor laws suck, I'll agree. They suck. They let employers get away with underpaying service workers, which in turn gives the service workers both an excellent incentive and an excellent excuse to hit up their customers for tips.

But if you want to tell us we are "AARGH DOING TIPPING WRONG!" because the way we handle tips in the context of our minimum wage laws offends your sensibilities, I'm going to disagree. Because I don't think "it offends my sensibilities" is a good argument in this case.

If you, personally, do not tip because it offends your sensibilities to pay someone in person unless they have performed exceptional personal service, fine. Be advised, over in this other country where I am, that will often be interpreted as obnoxious behavior. That's a local custom, not a law of physics, and I know it perfectly well.

But like a lot of local customs, if you don't follow it you can seriously piss off the natives, and that shouldn't come as a surprise or a source of bitterness to the traveler. Especially when we're talking about some petty bullshit like a few dollars at a restaurant.

[bobalot]

As far as this issue goes, you live in an ideal world, or at least an ideal country.

Ideal country? Think rest of the Western World. It's only your country with this retarded custom. I love it when people assume that American customs must be the norm for hundreds of millions of other people.