The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[Darth Yan]

Great chapter. Noticed two things. One, if two bullets can hurt michael I wonder how well he'll do against a single missle, and two, Lemuel seems to be growing a bit more rebellious. Maybe he'll start feeling pity for the humans

[Serafina]

Great chapter. Noticed two things. One, if two bullets can hurt michael I wonder how well he'll do against a single missle, and two, Lemuel seems to be growing a bit more rebellious. Maybe he'll start feeling pity for the humans

Those were propably armor-piercing bullets with a fancy military name - notice the description given by the doctor.
If it can hurt a tank, it darn better should hurt an angel.

[BR7]

Those were propably armor-piercing bullets with a fancy military name - notice the description given by the doctor.

I believe they would be Raufoss Mk 211 or something similar.

[Simon_Jester]

Great chapter. Noticed two things. One, if two bullets can hurt michael I wonder how well he'll do against a single missle, and two, Lemuel seems to be growing a bit more rebellious. Maybe he'll start feeling pity for the humans

The archdemons (and archangels) don't seem to be truly immune to bullets or shrapnel, but their tenacity of life is so great that wounds which would be very dangerous to a human are very much survivable to them.

Remember what happened against the infantry demons back in Iraq- 5.56 mm rounds were hitting them and hurting them, but they could take so many of the things that it was very difficult to kill them using such light-caliber rounds. And those were the puny grunt-level demons, too.

The reason it takes such massive trauma from high-explosive weapons to kill them isn't that you can't punch into their body with (relatively) normal bullets. It's that they're so friggin' big and have such good biological damage control that you can put a ridiculous number of rounds into them without killing them. If you want to hurt them with small arms at all*, you have to go for very specific targets where you maximize the amount of damage you do. Even a headshot might not do it unless you can find a spot where the bone is relatively light.

Sort of like hunting big game, only much, much more so. There are a lot of places you can put a .50 BMG class round into an elephant without stopping it...

*As in, "anything that fires solid shot and is small enough to carry"

[Stuart]

Those were propably armor-piercing bullets with a fancy military name - notice the description given by the doctor.

I believe they would be Raufoss Mk 211 or something similar.

The rounds used are indeed the Raufoss Mk.211. One of my very favorite rounds. The odd thing about it is that its much less effective against humans than daemon. The reason is that the inherent delay in the explosion and ignition of the round is such that when it strikes a human, it acts like a normal .50 bullet and goes through, exploding after it exits. But, in a daemon, its deep inside their body when it explodes and bursts into flame.

The archdemons (and archangels) don't seem to be truly immune to bullets or shrapnel, but their tenacity of life is so great that wounds which would be very dangerous to a human are very much survivable to them. Remember what happened against the infantry demons back in Iraq- 5.56 mm rounds were hitting them and hurting them, but they could take so many of the things that it was very difficult to kill them using such light-caliber rounds. And those were the puny grunt-level demons, too. The reason it takes such massive trauma from high-explosive weapons to kill them isn't that you can't punch into their body with (relatively) normal bullets. It's that they're so friggin' big and have such good biological damage control that you can put a ridiculous number of rounds into them without killing them. If you want to hurt them with small arms at all*, you have to go for very specific targets where you maximize the amount of damage you do. Even a headshot might not do it unless you can find a spot where the bone is relatively light. Sort of like hunting big game, only much, much more so. There are a lot of places you can put a .50 BMG class round into an elephant without stopping it...

That's exactly right. The ranks are

..........................................Angelic Rank.......................................Daemonic Rank
1) ...................................Chayot Ha Kodesh.....................................Lordly Daemons
2) ...................................Ophanim................................................Greater Daemon
3)....................................Erelim...................................................Master Daemon
4)....................................Hashmalim.............................................Higher Daemon
5)....................................Seraphim...............................................Superior Daemon
6)....................................Malakhim...............................................Daemon
7)....................................Elohim..................................................Inferior Daemon
....................................Bene Elohim...........................................Lower Daemon
9)....................................Cherubim...............................................Lesser Daemon
10)...................................Ishim....................................................Minor Daemon

There are fourteen Chayot Ha Kodesh, seven of the first rank (Michael, Rafael, Gabriel, Azrael, Uriel, Zadkiel and Chamuel) and seven of the second rank.

There were fourteen Lordly Daemons, seven of the first rank (the Dukes of Hell, Abigor, Asmodeus, Beelzebub, Dagon, Astaroth, Mephistopheles and Mammon.). Asmodeus and Beelzebub are deceased as KIA. Mephistopheles and Mammon were killed when Satan's palace was bombed. Belial and Deumos are/were Lordly Daemons of the Second Rank.

In Heavenly names, the word Lan means "Servant of". A Chayot Ha Kodesh simply uses Lan because the only person they are servants of is Yahweh and Yahweh's name is never spoken. So, its Michael-Lan, Uriel-Lan etc. An Erelim will be the servant of an Ophanim who will be the servant of a Chayot Ha Kodesh. So the full name might be Cassiel Lan Haniel Lan Michael Lan. A lowly Ishim will have ten names. So, the shorter the name, the higher the status. However, for normal purposes, the intermediate steps are omitted.

There are roughly 900 million angels and 10 billion humans in Heaven. Most of the angels are Ishim.

[TimothyC]

There are roughly 900 million angels and 10 billion humans in Heaven. Most of the angels are Ishim.

I wonder what happens when the humans learn that being sent to hell isn't as big of a punishment as it used to be?

[Serafina]

There are roughly 900 million angels and 10 billion humans in Heaven. Most of the angels are Ishim.

I wonder what happens when the humans learn that being sent to hell isn't as big of a punishment as it used to be?

Apparently, some of them already know (the doctor and his nurse, iirc).

[Shroom Man 777]

Those people are "in the know" because they're with Micheal's merry band of motherfuckers.

How on Earth did Heaven get 10 billion humans? That's... a whole lot of people. Historic Christians? I know Heaven would've been fine taking the despondent and dispossessed shitpieces of the world who clung to religion, and so many of them of so many faiths or denominations would've existed throughout history, but yeah. Christians always seemed so, you know, stringent about What It Takes to get into Heaven.

Too bad the place is actually like those enormous shanty towns in South America, times ten binillions!

[Stuart]

How on Earth did Heaven get 10 billion humans? That's... a whole lot of people. Historic Christians? I know Heaven would've been fine taking the despondent and dispossessed shitpieces of the world who clung to religion, and so many of them of so many faiths or denominations would've existed throughout history, but yeah. Christians always seemed so, you know, stringent about What It Takes to get into Heaven.

There have been 106 billion people (roughly) since time began. Of those, roughly 10 billion went to Heaven and the balance to Hell. Allowing for a casualty rate in Hell, that means there are around 90 billion humans in Hell. Most of the occupants in Heaven are from the early days, Michael has rescued some later people for his own purposes.

[SCRawl]

How on Earth did Heaven get 10 billion humans? That's... a whole lot of people. Historic Christians? I know Heaven would've been fine taking the despondent and dispossessed shitpieces of the world who clung to religion, and so many of them of so many faiths or denominations would've existed throughout history, but yeah. Christians always seemed so, you know, stringent about What It Takes to get into Heaven.

There have been 106 billion people (roughly) since time began. Of those, roughly 10 billion went to Heaven and the balance to Hell. Allowing for a casualty rate in Hell, that means there are around 90 billion humans in Hell. Most of the occupants in Heaven are from the early days, Michael has rescued some later people for his own purposes.

You know, it's funny. I've been spreading the "factoid" that there are more people alive now than have ever lived in the history of the world for years now. It wasn't until I saw your assumption of the 106 billion figure (along with what I earlier assumed to be erroneous estimates of the populations of H&H) that I decided to exercise my Google-fu, and found the same PRB study you're probably going from. I'm glad I did, and I won't be disseminating that "factoid" anymore.

Perhaps even more amusingly, I found another site which uses parrots the article with the following foreword:

Conclusion: Based on the below article we need to make an adjustment since since the first Adamic man arose about 4000 BC, not 50,000 BC. The conclusion of this article is that today's population is 5.8% of the total number of people that have ever lived. The World PopClock Project says today's population is 6.45 billion (May 24, 2006). 6.45 billion is determined to be 5.8% of the total population that ever lived since 50,000 BC, which comes to, 111.2 billion. If we take out the pre-adamic "dust" (Gen. 2.7) from 50,000 to 4000 BC we need to cut in half the population from 8000 BC to 1 BC and subtract it from the total. Half of 46 billion is is 23 billion. 111-23=88 billion.

Not that I'm terribly surprised, of course.

[ray245]

How on Earth did Heaven get 10 billion humans? That's... a whole lot of people. Historic Christians? I know Heaven would've been fine taking the despondent and dispossessed shitpieces of the world who clung to religion, and so many of them of so many faiths or denominations would've existed throughout history, but yeah. Christians always seemed so, you know, stringent about What It Takes to get into Heaven.

There have been 106 billion people (roughly) since time began. Of those, roughly 10 billion went to Heaven and the balance to Hell. Allowing for a casualty rate in Hell, that means there are around 90 billion humans in Hell. Most of the occupants in Heaven are from the early days, Michael has rescued some later people for his own purposes.

Yeah, but how many of those people in that time even believe in Yahweh's existence? The Abrahamic religion as we know it isn't that widespread until a much later era.

Sure, we can agree that the majority of people would go to hell eve though they don't believe in the Abrahamic religion, how did Yahweh find 10 billion people who accepted him as their god?

[Shroom Man 777]

The guy has a point. But perhaps after the non-Christian natives who died in pre-Christian times ended up going to Heaven because... well, because Heaven can choose which shitpieces it wants to abduct - and to morons from the ancient times, Heaven's shanty towns will look grand and splendorious?

Maybe Heaven liked taking dead children who were very impressionable and easy to raise. So when the dead kids ended up in Heaven, they ended up being mass-indoctrinated and enslaved to servitude?

Can deceased humans reproduce in the afterlife?

[Jamesfirecat]

Can deceased humans reproduce in the afterlife?

I think this has already been touched on and the answer is no. I don't remember why, but if I had to take a guess at random it would be because dead women no longer ovulate. I could be overulled, but that's the answer I can give to the best of my knowledge, anyone else care ot comment?

[ray245]

The guy has a point. But perhaps after the non-Christian natives who died in pre-Christian times ended up going to Heaven because... well, because Heaven can choose which shitpieces it wants to abduct - and to morons from the ancient times, Heaven's shanty towns will look grand and splendorious?

Maybe Heaven liked taking dead children who were very impressionable and easy to raise. So when the dead kids ended up in Heaven, they ended up being mass-indoctrinated and enslaved to servitude?

Can deceased humans reproduce in the afterlife?

I thought that Yahweh don't have complete control of the afterlife until much later in time, where the Abrahamic religion rise to become the dominant religion in the world.

[Stuart]

Yeah, but how many of those people in that time even believe in Yahweh's existence? The Abrahamic religion as we know it isn't that widespread until a much later era. Sure, we can agree that the majority of people would go to hell eve though they don't believe in the Abrahamic religion, how did Yahweh find 10 billion people who accepted him as their god?

They don't have to. You're missing a fundamental point. Yahweh just took the ones he wanted, the ones that would worship him unconditionally and be overawed by him. Anbody who showed independence of thought was rejected and ended up in Hell. The truth is that one never ended up in Heaven because one was virtuous or a believer in Abrahamic religions. One got there by being prepared to accept that yahweh was a being who could not be questioned or whose saying werte not open to dispute.

I thought that Yahweh don't have complete control of the afterlife until much later in time, where the Abrahamic religion rise to become the dominant religion in the world.

He didn't; but the battle for control of the Earth ended long enough ago for the numbers involved to be inconsequential

[Stuart]

RAF Bruntingthorpe, Leicestershire.

Bruntingthorpe Aerodrome had last been used by the Royal Air Force in 1962 when the 19th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron of the USAF and its RB-66Bs had moved out and the station had closed. Since 1972 the aerodrome had become privately owned and used for a number of uses; it had recently become famous as the home of Vulcan B.2 XH558. Shortly after her first flight as once more an RAF bomber XH558’s home had been requisitioned by the Ministry of Defence, becoming home to the V-Bomber Flight and its four Vulcan B.2s and two Victor K.2s, and the RAF’s new Heavy Bomber Development Unit. The HBDU’s job was to prepare the RAF for the arrival of the B-1C Lancers that it had ordered from the Americans.

“What? Four aircraft in 2011?” Group Captain Martin Winters (he was still getting used to his new rank), the new Commanding Officer of the HBDU, shouted into his phone. “What are they doing, building them by hand?”

"That's not so far from the truth. They had the production line tooling in storage but reconditioning it and setting it up was a seriously difficult job. Rockwell moved a lot faster than anybody had a right to expect as it is. Now, they've got to get long-lead components. They're only moving as fast as they are because they're drawing down on the spares inventory for the B-1Bs to bridge the gap."

Winters fumed. “I thought that the Septics were supposed to be the ‘Arsenal of Democracy’ and all that bullshit.”

“I’m sorry, Sir.” His contact at MoD Main Building replied. “But the Americans are starting production of the C model Lancer from scratch. It's not a B-1B, it’s a modified and simplified B-1A. For the first six months they’ll only be producing one aircraft a month, rising to two six months after that. Best case scenario has the Americans operating eighteen new Lancers this time next year. Their first priority will be to replace the B-29s and B-50s, and replace the B-2s that were lost in the Whitman tornado. After that they’ll probably be happy enough to give us four aircraft for training purposes. There is some good news, they’ve also promised to allow our personnel to go on exchange to America so they can get some hands on experience with the B-1C.”

“Very nice of them I’m sure.” Winters replied, still far from happy. “I do hope that the Brass Hats and politicians are happy that the RAF’s bomber force will remain at four aircraft for the foreseeable future. Unless somebody else can come through with some spares.

"Between us Sir, the Brass have been trying that. They went to the Russians asking about Tu-95s and Tu-160s."

"Bears and Blackjacks? I don’t suppose. . . . ."

"Not a chance it turned out. Tu-160s are coming off the lines at one per month now, big increase on the pre-war one per year. They're good birds, apparently our people were impressed, but the Russians want them all. As for the Tu-95s, they're restarting the production line but they're having the same problems as the Septics. That left the Chinese of course. . . . ."

"I don't suppose they have anything we could use."

"Oddly, they've got the most productive bomber line at the moment. The good news is that they're churning six Xian H-6Ks off the line a month. The bad news is that the H-6K is a modified Tu-16. Some Rolls-Royce people are over there now. Back in the '80s, the Chinese were playing with an advanced H-6 with Spey engines, they called it the H-8. It never got anywhere but the Chinese are trying again and the guys from Roller are helping them. Again, you're looking at years, not months. There's nobody else, not at the moment. So, you're on your own resources. How are they looking?"

Winter thought for a moment. "Well we might be able to get one, or maybe two more Vulcans flying, but that’s the limit, the remaining survivors are only good for spare parts. At least we’ll be able to retire the two Victors soon, now that our A330 tankers are in production.”

"You should hear the airlines moaning. It's been almost two years since they got any new aircraft. Airbus are building as fast as they can but their entire output is going into military transports and aerial refuellers. Hell's a big place and we've a lot of ground to cover out there. Anyway, talking of spare parts, Sir, the bosses would like to know what the situation is.”

“Could be better, could be worse.” Winters replied. “We’ve been lucky in that Rolls Royce still makes the Olympus engine for maritime and industrial uses. It wasn’t too difficult getting part of the production line switched over to engines for the Vulcan. Other components were more of a problem, though you’d be surprised how many Vulcan and Victor spare parts were sitting forgotten in RAF stores. At current sortie rates we’ve probably got enough to last six to eight months, by which time I hope new components will be in production."

“The Rolls-Royce Conway engines of the Victor were more of a problem, they’re not in production any more and spares are in short supply, but so long as Airbus get their fingers out it shouldn’t be a great problem.”

“I’ll pass that along, Sir, thank you.”

Winters heard a click and knew that the connection had been severed. He replaced the receiver of his own phone and sat back in his chair wondering how he was going to draw up a training program for heavy bomber air and ground crew using six aircraft that had been designed in the 1950s; well challenges were what life in the Services was all about. Winters looked up at two pictures on his wall, one was a print of a new painting depicting XH558 flying through the skies of Hell, the other, of somewhat less artistic merit, was a photo-shopped picture of a B-1B Lancer in the markings of 617 Squadron. The latter had been hung up when there had been an early expectation of delivery of the Lancer B.1 (as the RAF were planning to call the B-1C), now it just served to mock Winters.

He stood up and removed the picture from his wall and placed it in a drawer and locked it away.

Training Camp, 1st Mechanized Infantry Battalion (Demonic), Dis, Hell

"What a phalanx they would have made." Aeneas looked sadly at the daemons who were sitting around cleaning their rifles. "Keep them shoulder-to-shoulder in a phalanx and they would have made chopped turds of everybody."

"Even the Spartans?" Anderson enjoyed goading Aeneas.

"Even us." One of the delights of teasing the Spartan was that he took everything so seriously.

"Well, they did, didn't they." Ori was less easy to needle. "They took us apart over and over again. That's where all the legends of humans fighting against armies of monstrous beasts come from. Sergeant Anderson says that even a few years ago, humans would have had bad problems with them. Still, that's all gone now. Just as our way of war is a thing of the past."

"Could you samurai have taken them?" Aeneas was genuinely interested in the concept.

Ori shook his head. "A small number perhaps. But our arrows would have taken many, many shots to bring them down and to fight a daemon with a sword is a desperate thing. Rifles are better and with them, each of us stands on equal terms with one of them."
"Which brings us back to tactics. Or lack of them."

"Having problems gentlemen?" Sergeant Gray Anderson pulled over a chair and joined his two drill instructors.

"The daemons. You were wrong about them. They can fight as units perfectly."

"That's the problem." Aeneas finished off Ori's comment. "As long as they're in one large unit, they're fine. They move as a unit, fight as a unit, keep their ranks perfectly. It's not on an individual level that you have your problem, it's the next level up. Split that big unit into two small ones and try to get them to cooperate, that's where it all comes apart. Each unit tries to outdo the other, each one wants to 'get the glory' and leave the other behind. They just can't get that idea out of their minds and we're not the people you need to change things."

"If anything, we see their point." Ori added the coda to Aeneas's lecture. He couldn’t help thinking that the weeks lecturing human historians on the realities of life in ancient Greece had done wonders for the previously-reticent Spartan.

"I was rather afraid you'd say that." Anderson sighed. Trying to turn daemons into modern soldiers was proving much harder than anybody had thought possible. The human way of war was a product of how modern humans thought at a very basic level. Daemons seemed incapable of duplicating it.

"Give you an example of this." Aeneas was on a flow now. "Fire and manoeuver. One squad lays down covering fire while the other maneuvers to a better position. Then that squad takes over the firing work from its new position while the first squad moves to its new and improved position. One squad takes a risk to cover the other knowing the other will do the same for it. But the daemons just don’t understand that. Try it and one squad doesn't see why it should take a chance to help its rivals, the other knows that so it doesn't take chances either. So nothing happens."

"So how does Caesar manage it?" Ori was interested. "He has mixed daemon and human units?"

"As far as we can make out, he's keeping humans and daemons in separate low-level units and spacing them out down the line. The humans lay down suppressive fire and provide the support, the daemons do the actual assaults." Anderson thought carefully, "perhaps we could try that. It can't work any worse than the things we are trying now. Anyway, how's your musketry lessons going?"
Ori frowned. "Musketry?"

"Sorry, riflemanship. Musketry is an old term for the skills needed to handle a rifle properly. Making progress?"

"Yes indeed. It is good to get everything working together and make the rifle do what I wish." Ori had adapted to firing rifles quickly and his aim was improving daily. "But there is a part of my mind that hates what they stand for. What honor is there in warfare if a few weeks training can turn out a rifleman who will cut down his enemy at a distance? A sword, a bow, these take great training to use but a rifle? With a little training a peasant can shoot down a valiant warrior."

"That was the whole point." Anderson spoke dryly. After his retirement from the Army, he'd lived alone for a few years before advancing age made that impossible. Then his children had put him in an 'assisted living facility' that, to him, had been a warehouse for people waiting to die. During that time he'd read a lot. "It was guns and citizen-soldiers who ended the reign of absolute kings. Once the king no longer had a monopoly for firepower, their day was done."

"But you still had dictators." Aeneas had listened to his audience as well as speaking to them.

"We did, but they were different. They held power by force, not by an absolute right. Be that as it may, Aeneas, how are you getting on with the M-115?"

"It is a hard weapon. So much to think about. The phalanx was so much easier."

"Isn’t that rather the problem the daemons are having?" Anderson leaned back in his seat and waved to the bartender for three beers. "Let's drink to rifles boys. And in beer, not fungus ale."

MoD Main Building, Whitehall, London.

"Well, the septics blew it. They had Uriel cornered but they let him get away. Again." Field Marshal Dannatt sounded gloomily pleased.

"It's not all a complete loss, according to DIMO(N) we gained a lot of information on portals to Heaven that might crack the place open. We all know this siege is getting on people's nerves."

"Siege, Admiral?"

"What else do we call it? Heaven has us locked out and we're trying to find a way in so we can storm the place. Heaven's locked in and they're making sallies out to try and disrupt our efforts. If that isn't a definition of a siege, I don’t know what is. As for the septics, well, that was quite a spectacular rescue Michael-Lan-Yahweh pulled."

"Did you see the film of him stopping to wave to us as he pulled out? That took big brass ones."

"Courage has never been in short supply with the daemons, nor with the angels I suspect. Although Uriel's chosen mode of attack doesn’t necessarily agree with that. But, if Uriel keeps hitting the septics, they'll get him eventually. It's the information from Myanmar that I found much more interesting."

"The way the Thais pulled off their counter-attack. Very innovative." Dannatt was genuinely impressed.

"That wasn't the Thais, that was the Human Expeditionary Army showing how Petraeus plans to fight future wars. The Thai Corps was just the maneuver element. But no, it was the drugs thing that interests me."

"Michael buying industrial quantities of hard drugs? Yes, that was rather curious. One wonders what he's up to. I understand the septics are watching what is left of Myanmar very closely."

"They are. But I rather think they have missed the point." Admiral West looked thoughtfully out of the window. It's been my experience that vices don’t come singly. Might it be a good time to ask, given Michael buys large quantities of drugs, what else he is buying?"

"I suppose he's going to South America for cocaine, but . . . . ."

"Not drugs, drink. Doesn’t it seem likely to you that if Michael has this immense need for drugs, he also needs drink for the same reasons?"

"Whisky." Light was dawning in Dannatt's head.

"Exactly. Whisky. And brandy, vodka, schnapps, gin, whatever else that's drinkable. Has it struck you that one or two of the Scottish distilleries are doing very well despite the effects of the war? We should put a watch on all the distilleries, at the very least try to catch him buying the stuff. And we should tip the French, Germans, Russians off as well."

"And the Americans, they distill whisky."

Admiral West looked severely at the soldier. "The Americans do not make whisky. They make a light brown, whisky-like fluid. A description that could also include horse's urine to which it bears a strong resemblance. Be that as it may, remember what I said about a siege. Well, think on this. Buying this stuff from Earth is a risky activity for Michael-Lan-Yahweh. Yet it's important enough for him to do and for him to do personally. Surely if it is that important to him, it's equally worthwhile for us to disrupt that supply. At the very least it will annoy him. At best, it'll disrupt his plans enough to force him to something desperate and that'll give us a chance to get him. When people are desperate they make mistakes, bad ones."

"Yahweh hasn't put a foot wrong yet. Although the scholars are telling us Michael is actually the great general of Heaven. So, I suppose we should say that Michael hasn't put a foot wrong yet."

"I might not agree with that." From one corner of the room, Sir John Sawers, head of the SIS, spoke for the first time. "We don’t know of Michael making any critical mistakes but we know nothing of what is happening in Heaven. He might have made that critical mistake already and we just haven't seen it yet. If anything that adds importance to your suggestion Admiral. Any way we can keep pressure on Michael-Lan and Yahweh the better."

[NecronLord]

I have the amusing image of Michael having promoted a fringe cult of angels that thinks working on a treadmill is worshipful to the One Above All.

Yeah, but how many of those people in that time even believe in Yahweh's existence? The Abrahamic religion as we know it isn't that widespread until a much later era.

Sure, we can agree that the majority of people would go to hell eve though they don't believe in the Abrahamic religion, how did Yahweh find 10 billion people who accepted him as their god?

Population in Europe in the Medieval Period

Taking 50 million as an average over a thousand years, assuming a full population turn over every fifty years (not entirely true, but it makes the math simplicity itself) that's a billion in itself. I forget when he supposedly stopped taking humans, but I think it's actually near the end of the Renaissance, offhand, which includes a modest population for him.

This is just Europe. Remember, the One Above All is not just Yahweh, as far as we know, he is also Allah. That's the Ummah added to Christendom.

It can probably be assumed that both groups would be, over the same period, admitted as a matter of course - and kicked out if they show independance later.

We also have that ancient and forgotten (by us) age when demons and angels warred on Earth - I've no doubt they'd make many converts there.

There's also a distinct possibility that he's been taking other religions - he could well be the Jade Emperor as well - he certainly has a 'celestial bureaucracy' thing going on. Though that'd be hard to reconcile with his monotheism in the west, it'd not be impossible.

Additionally, in some variations of Abrahamic belief, the 'supreme archangel' Metatron (who was, interestingly, according to Jewish myth, originally a mortal man whom Yahweh transformed into a nigh-god) is responsible for (among many other things) the education of all children who die; it may be or have their policy to yank (born?) children under say, thirteen and raise them in some kind of institution under his auspices. He shares some history with Zadkiel (both are supposed to be the angel sent to stop Abraham sacrificing his son), who may in this mythos, be the same individual.

And then there's the possibility of breeding in the afterlife - rather easier in heaven than being constantly tortured in hell.

[hongi]

And people like Abu Hamid al-Ghazali would not have been such dangerous foes of scientific rationalism were they not very clever people capable of making equally clever arguments, and putting them in persuasive forms that convince even the most literate and educated members of society

al-Ghazali wasn't an opponent of scientific rationalism per se. The Asharites get a bad press, but they saw the usefulness in rationality just as much as their opponents did. They just thought reason was a tool, not something to replace divine revelation.

[Serafina]

I love it that you included some european "traitors" - after all, its unreasonable that only third-world countries want profits - greed is an univeral human trait.

By the way, can we actually call them traitors?
Not for delivering drugs, i suppose - they are certainly not improving the war effort of heaven.
But certainly for not reporting this activity to the authorities.

Will some goverments try to set up rigged drug deliveries? Leaving the current operators in charge to avoid suspicion, but planting trackers and so on in the packages would be a nice idea.

[JN1]

Admiral West looked severely at the soldier. "The Americans do not make whisky. They make a light brown, whisky-like fluid. A description that could also include horse's urine to which it bears a strong resemblance.

I'm sure there's lots of people who would agree with that. I wonder if Michael has a favourite single malt?

[Panaka]

I'm sure there's lots of people who would agree with that. I wonder if Michael has a favourite single malt?

Glenfiddich 15 year old Solera reserve?
Thats what I drink

But Micheal-lan would probably drink something like Bowmore Black - 42 years old or Macallan Fine Oak (30 yrs).

[Simon_Jester]

And people like Abu Hamid al-Ghazali would not have been such dangerous foes of scientific rationalism were they not very clever people capable of making equally clever arguments, and putting them in persuasive forms that convince even the most literate and educated members of society

al-Ghazali wasn't an opponent of scientific rationalism per se. The Asharites get a bad press, but they saw the usefulness in rationality just as much as their opponents did. They just thought reason was a tool, not something to replace divine revelation.

I fail to see how this is does not make him a foe of scientific rationalism.

[Michael Garrity]

JN!:

That Adimiral West had better tread most carefully if he decides to visit the U.S, particularly Lynchburg, Tennessee; this is where 'Jack' Daniels is made....

Mike Garrity

[JN1]

I'm sure there's lots of people who would agree with that. I wonder if Michael has a favourite single malt?

Glenfiddich 15 year old Solera reserve?
Thats what I drink

But Micheal-lan would probably drink something like Bowmore Black - 42 years old or Macallan Fine Oak (30 yrs).

Those are all excellent single malts, if a bit pricey for me to enjoy. I'm also something of a fan of the other Bowmore malts and Laphroaig (I have a bottle of it somewhere). Sadly I'm on a course of pills that don't allow alcohol, which is a bit of an annoyance.
I don't think I've had a drink since New Year.

That Adimiral West had better tread most carefully if he decides to visit the U.S, particularly Lynchburg, Tennessee; this is where 'Jack' Daniels is made....

Well I'm sure it fits the description of brown alcoholic liquid, but I'm not sure I would grace it with the name 'whisky'. I've never thought of JD having the same sort of class as a single malt Scotch.
Be interesting what the opinion of the real Admiral West thinks.

[Panaka]

The 42 year Bowmore Black I mentioned is roughly $5000,- and the 30 year Macallan $500,-
Trust me, those are way out of my budget as well. They would, however be within Michael's private stash range.
The Glenfiddich 15yrs is near, but not at, my upper limit for a good bottle for semi regular drinking. Roughly $50,-

I'd expect a decent smattering of 8 to 18 year olds from Highland, Lowland and Speyside (sp?) in his club. A few older ones for special customers.