Kansas Republicans: We need the Great White Hope.

[Pelranius]

I hope that's just coincidence. The last thing we need is a Phelps sympathesizer in Congress now.

[Darth Raptor]

Since they went after this country's sacred cow, there aren't any Phelps sympathizers.

[SAMAS]

I honestly don't find the Non-racist explanation speaking very well for her, either.

In effect, she's claiming that she didn't have the foresight to think that maybe saying 'We need a Great White Hope to beat this Black guy" would be taken the wrong way.

[Broomstick]

You are either sheltered or lying for effect.

Or else the meaning/use of the phrase differs between the UK and the US - it would hardly be the first English phrase or word to do so.

I've heard and read this phrase plenty of times, never once in any racist context.

Good for you. I have never heard it other than in a racist or historical context. Well, maybe sarcastically once or twice, but very very rarely if that.

I consider this phrase to be divorced from its origins, both in the UK and USA.

Examples of its use in newspapers from 30 secs googling:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... mment=true
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 42261.html

Using UK sources to support what you claim to be American usage is hardly valid proof of your viewpoint.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 14_pf.html

The article title? The entire op/ed article is about race, racism, and overcoming race. That does not support your position.

And learn to dress your links.

[Knife]

I'm trying to figure out how it can NOT be a racist comment even if the congresswoman didn't know about it's origins. The very structure of the phrase is black/white (no pun intended), and thus derogatory. The only time I've heard anything remotely non-racist with is, is when it's used as a pun. Great White Dope or some such, and even then it relies on the racist history of the phrase to turn it around and be derogatory the other way.

So, is the lady from Kansas saying a white person needs to be found to replace the black guy? Or a White Knight to defeat the evil lord? Either way, it wasn't some benign comment, it had serious packed issues behind it.

[Darth Wong]

I made a point and backed it up with examples - specifically to show that "great white hope" does not equal "racist dogwhistle" in most usage, and so its not appropriate to assume a racist context just becasue it suits your political viewpoint to do so.

You're full of shit. It is common knowledge that "great white hope" is a term with racist origins. The fact that some people use it differently is no different from the fact that some people use "nigger" in a much different context than it was originally used. The fact is that certain words like "nigger" and "monkey" are definitely far more racially charged when they are used in a certain context, and the particular context of this usage is an exact fucking mirror for the original racist context.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I admit, I never knew the origin of the phrase, and I always thought it referred to some sort of 'White Knight coming to the rescue' archetype. Guess you learn something new every day.

[Darth Wong]

I admit, I never knew the origin of the phrase, and I always thought it referred to some sort of 'White Knight coming to the rescue' archetype. Guess you learn something new every day.

That's because you're a complacent white person and not inclined to look suspiciously or cautiously at any cultural term which has the word "white" or "black" in it. It's also common to say that someone has a "black heart", but wouldn't you find it a bit disturbing if one of Obama's many white detractors said that Obama is a terrible president because he has a black heart, and then later tried to brush it off as a meaningless coincidence?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Sheesh, the term is so utterly, in-your-face racist that when they did find their "great white hope" (who lost, of course), the ringside band played "All coons look the same to me" (an actual song--most modern people don't realize the sheer intensity and pervasiveness of racism in the early 20th century) before the fight. The fact that we're having this discussion at all is just a good illustration of how thoroughly racist memes penetrated Anglo-Saxon culture in the 20th century.

[Knife]

Sheesh, the term is so utterly, in-your-face racist that when they did find their "great white hope" (who lost, of course), the ringside band played "All coons look the same to me" (an actual song--most modern people don't realize the sheer intensity and pervasiveness of racism in the early 20th century) before the fight. The fact that we're having this discussion at all is just a good illustration of how thoroughly racist memes penetrated Anglo-Saxon culture in the 20th century.

To be fair, American culture itself has been patently racists for longer than that. "It's the Southern way of Life." or "I want my COUNTRY BACK." or "This country was built on Christian White Male power." all hearken back to racist ideologies. I guess if you trace if far enough back, blame the separatists of Protestant beliefs or perhaps the Portuguese preying upon the Guanche on the Canary Islands.

[frogcurry]

I made a point and backed it up with examples - specifically to show that "great white hope" does not equal "racist dogwhistle" in most usage, and so its not appropriate to assume a racist context just becasue it suits your political viewpoint to do so.

You're full of shit. It is common knowledge that "great white hope" is a term with racist origins. The fact that some people use it differently is no different from the fact that some people use "nigger" in a much different context than it was originally used. The fact is that certain words like "nigger" and "monkey" are definitely far more racially charged when they are used in a certain context, and the particular context of this usage is an exact fucking mirror for the original racist context.

Its got some pretty horrible racist origins, but I don't believe its particularly commonly known. I've been familiar with it since I was a child, but didn't learn of its origins until I was an adult and read about the original events in a book. I still didn't know there was a film of the name until this thread. The same can't be said for "nigger", which has never been divorced from its original meaning in any context (save certain use by some black americans themselves) and so couldn't accidentally be used in a sentence.

I do get your point, that the use in different contexts doesn't make it non-racist in this one context. But I'm pointing out that it could be used in the sense of "we need a new republican leader/ hero to save us" as well, so its use here could just be brainless ignorance and speaking without thinking.
Duchess;
I conceed the fact that I'm not American and didn't live long in the country, and this was an American usage on American politics. But please note that a few american posters in this thread (east coast/ new york?) have stated that they are also familiar with this phrases use in other contexts, and not its racist origins. There certainly is some transatlantic language difference here, but its clearly not universally perceived as de-facto racist in the USA.

[Broomstick]

I think there is an age factor here as well. No one of my generation would fail to make the racist connections. I think those people who are 15-20 or so right now may not because race relations have changed since I was that age. Doesn't mean they're perfect, far from it, but MUCH better than in my younger days. So yes, it may well be that there are a few Americans for whom this does not set off bells of bias but they'd be young, and probably from cosmopolitan areas.

[General Zod]

There certainly is some transatlantic language difference here, but its clearly not universally perceived as de-facto racist in the USA.

When it's used to talk about beating a black man at something? It's pretty much guaranteed it will be perceived as racist.

[Darth Wong]

Republicans have been playing the "who me?" card ever since Reagan claimed he couldn't remember ever hearing about Iran-Contra. It's their stock in trade. They do terrible things and claim they forgot what happened, they say terrible things and claim they didn't know what they meant, and for some reason people keep thinking they deserve the benefit of the doubt. They're either incredibly unlucky, they're mentally retarded, or they're a bunch of assholes with legions of fuckwit apologists making excuses for them.

[Aratech]

Republicans have been playing the "who me?" card ever since Reagan claimed he couldn't remember ever hearing about Iran-Contra. It's their stock in trade. They do terrible things and claim they forgot what happened, they say terrible things and claim they didn't know what they meant, and for some reason people keep thinking they deserve the benefit of the doubt. They're either incredibly unlucky, they're mentally retarded, or they're a bunch of assholes with legions of fuckwit apologists making excuses for them.

What, no option for all of the above?

[SAMAS]

Ouch, it gets worse.

Turns out, not a month before, she supported a bill to posthumously pardon Johnson for bogus charges he suffered. A bill that flat-out explained what "Great White Hope" meant!

MSNBC link

She of course plays stupid again, claiming tl;dr.

[The Romulan Republic]

I admit, I never knew the origin of the phrase, and I always thought it referred to some sort of 'White Knight coming to the rescue' archetype. Guess you learn something new every day.

That's because you're a complacent white person and not inclined to look suspiciously or cautiously at any cultural term which has the word "white" or "black" in it. It's also common to say that someone has a "black heart", but wouldn't you find it a bit disturbing if one of Obama's many white detractors said that Obama is a terrible president because he has a black heart, and then later tried to brush it off as a meaningless coincidence?

Are you saying we should assume every term with the word "white" or "black" in it must be presumed to have a racist origin? Is a fantasy author who refers to "black magic," for example, automatically a racist? Is Harry Potter racist because it has a "Dark Lord?"

No, I would have no problem with someone saying Obama has a "black heart," beyond thinking that they were a melodramatic fool, unless they said something else that made it clear they had a racist intent. No more than I would have a problem with someone saying Bush, Hitler, or Stalin, or the unpleasant neighbor down the street has a black heart.

If you want to claim a term is racist, just pointing to the presence of the word "white" or "black" shouldn't be enough (hell, why not denounce every phrase with the word yellow, brown, or red in it too). Why not actually provide some evidence that this is the case?

Great White Hope, of course, is rather more obvious given its origins and use in recent history. I'm not denying that.

[Kodiak]

I admit, I never knew the origin of the phrase, and I always thought it referred to some sort of 'White Knight coming to the rescue' archetype. Guess you learn something new every day.

That's because you're a complacent white person and not inclined to look suspiciously or cautiously at any cultural term which has the word "white" or "black" in it. It's also common to say that someone has a "black heart", but wouldn't you find it a bit disturbing if one of Obama's many white detractors said that Obama is a terrible president because he has a black heart, and then later tried to brush it off as a meaningless coincidence?

Are you saying we should assume every term with the word "white" or "black" in it must be presumed to have a racist origin? Is a fantasy author who refers to "black magic," for example, automatically a racist? Is Harry Potter racist because it has a "Dark Lord?"

He's not saying that at all. He's saying people should "look suspiciously or cautiously at any cultural term which has the word "white" or "black" in it".

If you want to claim a term is racist, just pointing to the presence of the word "white" or "black" shouldn't be enough (hell, why not denounce every phrase with the word yellow, brown, or red in it too). Why not actually provide some evidence that this is the case?

That's the problem, is that Republicans have a habbit of making very thinly veiled remarks that have racial undertones and then saying "well, we were using it a different way". Just off the top of my head I can remember several recent instances-

Calling Sen. Obama "uppity" during the campaign
A congressman launching a song called "Barack the Magic Negro"
Caricaturing the presidency (but never the president directly) as a monkey

to name only a few, and I'm sure there are more out there. We're not saying that ALL phrases that use "black" and "white" are racially charged or have exclusively racial meanings, but we are saying that when Republicans use them in the current political context, they are either very ignorant of those undertones or they're taking potshots using base humor.

[General Zod]

That's the problem, is that Republicans have a habbit of making very thinly veiled remarks that have racial undertones and then saying "well, we were using it a different way". Just off the top of my head I can remember several recent instances-

Calling Sen. Obama "uppity" during the campaign
A congressman launching a song called "Barack the Magic Negro"
Caricaturing the presidency (but never the president directly) as a monkey

I think one of the more notable ones was when Fox Noise described Michelle Obama as his "baby's mama". Which might fly over the head of the typical sheltered white person.

[Haruko]

She of course plays stupid again, claiming tl;dr.

She, of course, doesn't read bills, or forgets their point within a month.

Which of course speaks much better of her as a Representative.

She should use the Karl Rove excuse; just as he gets too many emails to remember the one where he assented to the unfair firing of an attorney, she gets too many bills to remember the one that explained why what she said sounded unambiguously racist.

[Darth Wong]

I admit, I never knew the origin of the phrase, and I always thought it referred to some sort of 'White Knight coming to the rescue' archetype. Guess you learn something new every day.

That's because you're a complacent white person and not inclined to look suspiciously or cautiously at any cultural term which has the word "white" or "black" in it. It's also common to say that someone has a "black heart", but wouldn't you find it a bit disturbing if one of Obama's many white detractors said that Obama is a terrible president because he has a black heart, and then later tried to brush it off as a meaningless coincidence?

Are you saying we should assume every term with the word "white" or "black" in it must be presumed to have a racist origin? Is a fantasy author who refers to "black magic," for example, automatically a racist? Is Harry Potter racist because it has a "Dark Lord?"

No, I would have no problem with someone saying Obama has a "black heart," beyond thinking that they were a melodramatic fool, unless they said something else that made it clear they had a racist intent. No more than I would have a problem with someone saying Bush, Hitler, or Stalin, or the unpleasant neighbor down the street has a black heart.

If you want to claim a term is racist, just pointing to the presence of the word "white" or "black" shouldn't be enough (hell, why not denounce every phrase with the word yellow, brown, or red in it too). Why not actually provide some evidence that this is the case?

Great White Hope, of course, is rather more obvious given its origins and use in recent history. I'm not denying that.

Did you even bother reading what the fuck I wrote, asshole?

[The Romulan Republic]

He's not saying that at all. He's saying people should "look suspiciously or cautiously at any cultural term which has the word "white" or "black" in it".

Possibly I overreacted, in which case I apologise (though I believe that I might also have been exaggerating somewhat for the sake of making a point).

However, their is a question of where you place the burden of proof. Do you suspect any phrase involving certain words of being racist until proven otherwise, or do you give the benefit of the doubt until proof is provided that something is racist? Darth Wong might not have been saying we should assume racism, but it is pretty clear to me that he is willing to regard a phrase with suspicion at least for no reason beyond the presence of the word black, hence my giving a couple examples in an effort to show how questionable I find that attitude.

That's the problem, is that Republicans have a habbit of making very thinly veiled remarks that have racial undertones and then saying "well, we were using it a different way". Just off the top of my head I can remember several recent instances-

Calling Sen. Obama "uppity" during the campaign
A congressman launching a song called "Barack the Magic Negro"
Caricaturing the presidency (but never the president directly) as a monkey

Oh, I have no doubt that many Republicans have knowingly and deliberately made racist statements regarding Obama, and I'll always be happy to denounce them for doing it. For that matter, I already said that the topic of this thread, the "Great White Hope" comment, appears to be pretty obviously racist. That doesn't mean we should be predisposed to assume racism whenever anyone makes a comment involving "black," "white," or some phrase or word that has at some point had racial implications. A lot of words have multiple meanings, and you can probably make just about anything seem racist if you try hard enough. I also worry that jumping at shadows and looking for racism where it doesn't exist trivializes and demeans a very serious discussion on a very serious issue, and distracts from confronting actual and more serious examples of racism.

to name only a few, and I'm sure there are more out there. We're not saying that ALL phrases that use "black" and "white" are racially charged or have exclusively racial meanings, but we are saying that when Republicans use them in the current political context, they are either very ignorant of those undertones or they're taking potshots using base humor.

So these things become racist if a Republican says them?

Black has multiple meanings. It can refer to the color, or it can carry a metaphorical meaning connected to evil or fear. Weather the latter has a racist origin in the far distant past I don't know (but I have yet to see persuasive evidence that it does). However, that is certainly not how I believe it is used today when one refers to a "black heart" or something similar.

If someone says Obama has a black heart, then it is possible they are a racist intending that comment as a racial one. It is also possible that they are familiar with a different, much more socially acceptable use of the word "black," and are using it in that manner. I do not see why people should be expected to always guard their words and refuse to use major chunks of the normal English vocabulary simply because someone might interpret a common and normally non-racist expression in a racist light.

[The Romulan Republic]

Did you even bother reading what the fuck I wrote, asshole?

Yes. I did. And if you will note my last post, I conceded that I may have overreacted to your post, and if I misrepresented what you were trying to say, once again, I'm sorry.

However, I also think that the above is a rather poor reply which is almost devoid of any content whatsoever.

[Kodiak]

If someone says Obama has a black heart, then it is possible they are a racist intending that comment as a racial one. It is also possible that they are familiar with a different, much more socially acceptable use of the word "black," and are using it in that manner. I do not see why people should be expected to always guard their words and refuse to use major chunks of the normal English vocabulary simply because someone might interpret a common and normally non-racist expression in a racist light.

Right there you've fairly well described a politician's most important lesson: Guard your words. For common people on the street, sure, I might forgive someone calling the president "black-hearted"- but a Republican Congresswoman should well know better. Either you think before you speak or you don't speak about it. Perhaps it would behoove her to NOT use phrases which she claims to have no idea the origin of. Would we excuse her if at a symposium of Jewish business owners she said "Let's all work hard- work brings freedom!" ? I. Think. Not.